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Author Topic: this is a pervasive disorder :(  (Read 376 times)
maxsterling
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« on: August 27, 2014, 09:28:19 AM »

Just a re-realization this morning that BPD affects every single aspect of a person's life.  My fiance seems to have shame with nearly everything, questions nearly everything, and seems to not have any moments where she feels things go smoothly.  Everything in her life is a potential cause for worry.  Nothing just goes on without a thought of potentially being bad.

Last night and this morning, she was on about how everyone at the school must hate her, that she is too negative, that her students must hate her, that she shouldn't have said this or that, that her job is dominating her life and she will get burnt out just like last year... .

And it's all projection!  It's not like there was a major incident that brought this on.  This all came about because she spoke up during a teacher's meeting, and now thinks everyone hates her. 
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« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2014, 09:54:11 AM »

I seem to remember the phrase "serious, chronic, pervasive" from somewhere. It's very hard to take in that concept, isn't it? Even when you live with it daily?

Max, what makes you think most of her concerns are projection at this time? Hasn't she already had problems this school year beyond those typical of a new teacher?
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maxsterling
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« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2014, 10:35:46 AM »

Yes, definitely hard to take in that concept!  With other people suffering from depression, anxiety or other mental illness, it feels like there is always some kind of foothold or "work around" that one can build from.  So for depressed people, they are not always depressed about everything, and you can work with the few things left that actually make them happy.  I still fall into the mental trap with my fiancé that once she gets involved with this or that she will feel better.  It just doesn't work that way with pwBPD because the feelings seems to invade every aspect of life, because the feelings and triggers appear to be separate from life.  No wonder BPD has such a negative stigma with psychologists -it must be very frustrating to treat. 

How do I know it's projection?  I guess I wasn't there to witness what may or may not have happened, but just from her language and responses to follow-up questions.  I hear a lot of "she/he must hate me" type of language out of her mouth, without much of a real reason to feel that way.  Examples:  Her sister must hate her because she didn't respond to an email after a day and a half.  Her friend must hate her because she hasn't wanted to hang out for two weeks.  Her co-teachers must hate her because she disagreed with them on something. What's missing are actions or words from her sister, friend, or teachers to actually indicate they hate her.
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« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2014, 11:10:15 AM »

The part of your post that caught my eye a bit ago was one where you mentioned an event where your fiancée reported to you that she raised her voice at a child. And then I think she later added that that child's mother came to pay her a private visit. If the children are young, wouldn't that be something a little out of the ordinary? And something that might become known to other teachers and administrators as well?

Probably just continuing to practice validation, while preparing yourself for some additional disappointment soon, is your best bet. (Just my opinion, and just based on what I try to learn from the Lessons here.)

As an aside: I once attended a brown-bag lunch of psychologists who work in the court system as an adjunct to their professional practice lives. The topic of the presentation was borderline personality disorder. What I took away from that discussion was the great precautions these psychologists took in their personal lives in order to be able to continue services to individuals suffering from this disorder. Serious stuff, like treating only one such individual at a time, and living in buildings with robust security.

Nice guys like you probably just have to toughen up, way up. Like waverider.

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maxsterling
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« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2014, 12:10:37 PM »

Yes, the yelling at the students situation is noteworthy.  But again, I wasn't there, so I don't know exactly what went on.  I do know that teachers raising their voices is common (Plenty of my teachers raised their voices from time to time).  I also know that this one student wasn't the only one to bring it up, and she freely admits she has yelled enough to make students cry at a previous job.  That says to me this is a real issue for her, and something she is aware of and knows is bad.  Obviously the other teachers and faculty do take note of this, but she has yet to mention that any other teachers or faculty have said something to her about this.  For all I know, they do the same thing.  My feeling here is that her low self image and past experiences (her BPD) is screaming at her that she is doing a bad job.  And because of that feeling, everything a colleague says to her goes through that filter and is interpreted negatively. So she thinks the other teachers hate her, not because they have said anything, but because she feels she is doing a poor job and they must hate her for that.  So, she interprets what may be normal behaviors of others as evidence that they don't like her.  Eventually, many of them will probably view her as inapproachable and not a team player, but that seems to be a self-fulfilling prophecy because as of right now, I am not aware of any specific things said or done against her.

And interesting that you mentioned the brown bag lunch of psychologists.  For awhile, I was hanging out with a group of 4-5 friends who are all psychologists or have psychology degrees. One day I was at a party and expressing frustration to them regarding relationship issues and mentioned that she just told me she had BPD.  They all proceeded to warn me.  They told me I should change my locks and phone number and to end the relationship immediately.  I think they may have even advised me to talk to a lawyer and document everything.  They told me that pwBPD are almost impossible to treat and they try to avoid those patients at all costs.  Interestingly, one of that group I would suspect as having BPD herself. 
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« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2014, 12:44:56 PM »

Many psychologists seem to have "borderline experiences" with great commonalities to the experiences recounted here by domestic partners. (Including the more challenging experiences, like threats and accusations, and court-issued protective orders.)

For my money, someone like waverider is a genuine pioneer, because he seems to be carving out a personal space amidst--rather than beyond--chaos. There are probably a few, very talented psychologists who have similar abilities.

It's way beyond me.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2014, 01:32:39 PM »

I listened to a good talk by Fruzetti on DBT and the thought chain that precedes the BPD behavior (cutting, in the example he gave). Basically, what we are experiencing is the tail end of the process, so it's hard to make sense of it or validate. So for your fiancée, she is expressing the conclusion of a whole lot of feelings, thoughts, self judgment, self invalidation, more feelings, more thoughts and out it comes as "my sister hates me". SET helps because, like DBT, it moves further up the process to get at the earlier feelings of "I am disappointed that I haven't heard back from my sister. I was looking forward to talking with her." If she expressed that, you'd be like "I totally understand that." Instead you get "my sister hates me" and feel like you are doing damage control. It will stay that way until she can learn to arrest her thoughts and self judgment at the initial response. Basically retraining herself to think in an entirely different way. In my spiritual study and practice, I find it hard to arrest my thinking even when making a conscious effort. This is truly the work of a lifetime.
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« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2014, 09:31:16 PM »

Just a re-realization this morning that BPD affects every single aspect of a person's life.  My fiance seems to have shame with nearly everything, questions nearly everything, and seems to not have any moments where she feels things go smoothly.  Everything in her life is a potential cause for worry.  Nothing just goes on without a thought of potentially being bad.

Yes, definitely hard to take in that concept!  With other people suffering from depression, anxiety or other mental illness, it feels like there is always some kind of foothold or "work around" that one can build from.  So for depressed people, they are not always depressed about everything, and you can work with the few things left that actually make them happy.  I still fall into the mental trap with my fiancé that once she gets involved with this or that she will feel better.  It just doesn't work that way with pwBPD because the feelings seems to invade every aspect of life, because the feelings and triggers appear to be separate from life.  No wonder BPD has such a negative stigma with psychologists -it must be very frustrating to treat.   

So what is the prognosis? I have heard it is incurable, life long even if they are being treated. Is there really hope if they are not being treated? Are they ever truly able to accept it?

What is normal T schedule; weekly, monthly? Needed for rest of their lives?

What gets better; less frequency and intensity? Or do we non's just learn to handle and live with it in a healthier way?

The frustration of having lived with it and a gloomy out look is weighing heavy on me. I am in the angry stage right now and wonder if it would be better for us both to go separate ways?
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MissyM
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« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2014, 09:58:20 PM »

I have been hearing our entire relationship how my dBPDh is going to lose his job (he has been there 20 years), how our relationship is the source of his problems, and how he is going to die and not live a long life.    Now he has added in that he is getting old and useless (odd for someone that was going to die).  When he gets into the negative loop there isn't much I can say.  These all seem to come together, it isn't just one thing but that his entire life is terrible.  The only thing I can seem to validate is that he is depressed.  Hopefully he will work through this, again.  These stages are bad and the projection onto me is upsetting.
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waverider
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« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 06:03:27 AM »

Often we are blinded to just how pervasive the disorder is because we are blinded by the lights nearest to us. The disorder is like all the lights in the universe If we do manage to extinguish the nearest sun, then the next one seems to become bright and so on. Eventually it is like trying to extinguish all the stars in the universe. It is an infinite task.

Learning to live within the universe is the only realistic objective. The disorder will always be twinkling away in the background

How do I know it's projection?

Because you know she has a disorder and projection is part of it, it has happened endlessly before and will again, so the details of this issue are not important. You can't prevent this projection, so you can only accept that it is just part of her everyday communication.

You know there is a good chance that sooner or later there will be a drama and she will either leave or be sacked and it will be blamed on workplace harassment. Trying to workout the he said/she said reality is virtually a sideshow.

It sucks, but this is the reality as to why my partner can't hold a job and I no longer push her to do so.

I guess your best way forward is just not get into it and try to avoid work issues being projected back onto you for not "understanding"
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waverider
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« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 06:16:14 AM »

So what is the prognosis? I have heard it is incurable, life long even if they are being treated. Is there really hope if they are not being treated? Are they ever truly able to accept it?

Many can accept but not all. The problem is accepting is overwhelming as they can't immediately fix it, and can fall back into denial as a defense. For treatment to be effective they need to be ready for it. The instinctive emotions can't always be eliminated, but they can learn new "go to" reactions to manage their lives better. Even if they can overcome it they have missed out on a lifetime of "normal" experiences. As life's experiences are what makes us who we are, this shortfall can leave them with "stunted" development. Scarred in effect. So full "normality" would be hard to attain.

What is normal T schedule; weekly, monthly? Needed for rest of their lives?

Varies according to the individual and whether in a program or just custom therapy

What gets better; less frequency and intensity? Or do we non's just learn to handle and live with it in a healthier way?

Both, hopefully an openness can develop so that you can discuss the issues and feel like you are on the same team rather than adversaries.

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« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 08:35:30 AM »

Waverider, all that you have said seems to be so accurate.  For my dBPDh there will be some sort of therapy for the majority of our lives.  I do see progress with all of the work.  He was able to  work through his dysregulation by this morning instead of letting it go on for days, like he has in the past.  Learning new tools and coping is a lot of work and it has taken him being ready to do the work.  I have read that PDs get better when people become quite elderly but 70 seems a long time to wait for that!  I don't see how BPD can get better without an intensive amount of therapy, it is basically relearning how to think and behave.
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waverider
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« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 08:42:10 AM »

Waverider, all that you have said seems to be so accurate.  For my dBPDh there will be some sort of therapy for the majority of our lives.  I do see progress with all of the work.  He was able to  work through his dysregulation by this morning instead of letting it go on for days, like he has in the past.  Learning new tools and coping is a lot of work and it has taken him being ready to do the work.  I have read that PDs get better when people become quite elderly but 70 seems a long time to wait for that!  I don't see how BPD can get better without an intensive amount of therapy, it is basically relearning how to think and behave.

Learning healthier ways of regulating their emotions will certainly take professional therapy. In the meantime however we can do a lot to not making it worse and reducing a lot of the aggressive conflict, and the impact it has on us.

You dont have to be at end game to make huge improvements in YOUR life.
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MissyM
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« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 08:53:10 AM »

Absolutely!  I am not waiting for end of life.  This is something we discussed in my step study, of the 7 of us 3 are married to people with PDs.  It takes a lot to bring the focus back to accepting the things that I can change, which are about me.  I can change the way I respond and keep boundaries.  This time I got worn out because his mood went on for so many days.  Seems that I can take about 5 days and that is it.  Apparently he is dealing with a lot of shame and has been taking it out on me.  I reacted badly to that because it triggered fear and my own abandonment issues. It is a cycle we get into, the push/pull dynamic is still happening.  Good news is that we were able to correct it.  That doesn't mean it won't happen again but other issues I have worked on seem to work this way.  First we start correcting after, then during and then before.  That seems to be the learning curve.  One day at a time.
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« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 09:26:36 AM »

I have read that PDs get better when people become quite elderly but 70 seems a long time to wait for that!

MissyM, I'm 63 and my dad died last year just a month shy of his 89th birthday. He never received any formal treatment--nor did he have a diagnosis of a personality disorder--but he was a great terror up until he closed his eyes for the final time. . . . Poor fellow! But there was never really any rest or respite for his wife or children or colleagues or would-be friends, or anyone.

The future of this disorder may be brighter than its past, if treatments continue to progress. But maybe you can do a bit of reading on this forum under the section for children of BPDs. Especially the threads that deal with end of life issues, frail elders, assisted living scenarios, and so on. Just so you can fully face the probabilities.

ADDED: I just noticed from your previous posts that you already have 16 years with your husband. So, you have a lot of good data already!

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« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2014, 09:51:31 AM »

Often we are blinded to just how pervasive the disorder is because we are blinded by the lights nearest to us. The disorder is like all the lights in the universe If we do manage to extinguish the nearest sun, then the next one seems to become bright and so on. Eventually it is like trying to extinguish all the stars in the universe. It is an infinite task.

Love this.  I used to think I was making progress, but there is always some new star to extinguish as you say.  As you progress in 1 area another area becomes a bigger problem. 
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KateCat
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« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2014, 10:30:22 AM »

Often we are blinded to just how pervasive the disorder is because we are blinded by the lights nearest to us. The disorder is like all the lights in the universe If we do manage to extinguish the nearest sun, then the next one seems to become bright and so on. Eventually it is like trying to extinguish all the stars in the universe. It is an infinite task.

Smiling (click to insert in post) Yes! It can be hard to have a "lightbulb moment" in this universe.
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MissyM
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 04:18:50 PM »

Kate, yes I have 17 years with my dBPDh and time did not make any of his issues better.  A lot of work on his issues is helping, so I do have hope these days.  I do have one Aunt in my family that I believe is PD (as well as her son), she has not gotten any better as she got older but has Alzheimers on top of her other issues.    I haven't spoken to her in 20 years because I cut out the few that were toxic in my family, if they couldn't respond to my boundaries they were out.  Which is one of the reasons I find it confusing that my husband won't do the same with his crazy, toxic family.  So, I have no real experience with the elderly and PDs, this was just some info that another member had brought into my step study group.  Sorry if I offended anyone.
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 04:28:13 PM »

Sorry if I offended anyone.

Heck, no! I just felt a brief period of alarm for your future. Being cool (click to insert in post)
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MissyM
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« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 05:18:12 PM »

Excerpt
Heck, no! I just felt a brief period of alarm for your future.

  LOL, I am so not someone that has blinders on or has fantasies that involve unicorns and fairyland.  I do appreciate the concern.   It will always require a lot of work to be in this marriage, we have 8 years together as friends before marriage so I have known him 25 years.  When he does all the work he needs, things go well in our lives.  Unfortunately, I have no control over whether he will continue in that.  One day at a time.
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