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Skills we were never taught
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A 3 Minute Lesson
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Author Topic: Does BPD make it hard to validate the other spouse?  (Read 563 times)
nightmoves
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« on: August 28, 2014, 11:05:56 AM »

I almost CANNOT believe how much my BPDw will not discuss or consider what her behavior

is doing to me and our family. My feelings... .she flat out says do not matter.

And even at that... .will not even allow me to express them.

We did a session with a therapist once (did no go well... .she got furious at him... .me... .everything )

When she stormed out... .

He said to me... .

"You need to decide what matters to you most here... .being validated... .or saving your marriage"... .you will not get both... .and likely will never get validation."

I am still trying to sort that statement out.

(he also said that in many ways she is stuck in a childlike place. And she sees herself as a victim - along with being caught in a negative loop. Anger/Rage response... .is now like a drug to her"

Anyone commenting on the above would be very helpful.

Does BPD, make it very difficult to validate the other person?



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« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2014, 11:17:18 AM »

Does BPD, make it very difficult to validate the other person?

I don't know if my husband truly has BPD but I do know that I have a very difficult time validating him. When I do succeed at validating him, it seems like he wants more and more and more. He will say that he wants appreciation and then when I thank him for things or try to show appreciation, he will tell me things like, "I wasn't looking for praise." And I am left thinking, "What the heck? If I don't thank you and give your praise, then you make sure to keep pointing these things out even if I have already validated him and made sure that I have acknowledged what he did." It is a struggle for me because I am sometimes triggered by the whole thing and have to be really careful what I say. It is not enough to validate him once. The most recent example was him putting the kids to bed. One night a couple of weeks ago, he put the kids to bed without my help. The next day, he went on and on and on about it. I tried to say things like thank you and tell him how much I appreciated his help. I was being very sincere because it was really nice to be able to sit in the living room and not have to be in there to help the kids. I also said stuff like, "It must feel really good to be able to do that now. You have come a long way with the kids." I tried really hard to be supportive and validating. After a couple of days of him bragging about getting the kids to bed ONE night, I had enough. I tried my best to keep things as civil as possible and told him that I understood that he was proud of himself but that I was getting a bit resentful because he is asking for praise for something that I do every night and have done every night since the kids were born.
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« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 12:29:21 PM »

In my experience, yes.  I rarely get validation from her.  I've also been told that my feelings don't matter, that her hurt is greater than any hurt I could ever experience, etc, etc.  I think the T was right - you can't expect someone to validate you or expect someone to change in this regard.  You either accept that this is the way it is, and if that is something that is important to you, you have to move on.  If one of your qualifications to being married to someone is that she fix something that she is probably incapable of changing, you won't be able to stay happy in the marriage.

I'm learning to accept that apologies, admissions that she is hurtful, contrition, and validation are going to be rare from her.  If I don't accept that, I have the option of moving on.  Things have gotten better recently, where I have gotten validation and apologies and admissions that she is hurtful.  I need to treat those as blessings in the current day and not expect more in the future. 

I think the issue here stems from pwBPD having a poor sense of self and poor natural boundaries that separate situations into their roles vs other people's roles (seeing them as distinct human beings with their own wants and needs).  My fiancé is in therapy for PTSD.  I don't discount the diagnosis and her struggle to deal with triggers, but from my perspective much of her "trauma" results from situations she got herself into or poor decisions she made.  The problem is, if she accepted that she screwed up her own life, climbing herself out of that hole feels impossible, and then she sinks into depression and suicidal thoughts.  Rather than face those issues one at a time (black and white thinking makes this nearly impossible), her coping mechanism is that of a frustrated child - to blame the world and others. 

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« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 02:28:17 PM »

I have given up on expecting any sort of compliment or validation from my pwBPD.  If she folds laundry or cleans up or does anything I'm expected to notice and tell her thank you.  If I don't right away, then she will point it out to me and fish for compliments.  These are things I do all the time without compliments, so I don't really feel she needs to be complimented like she's done something spectacular for clearing off the table or folding a basket of laundry.  My feelings mean nothing to her and usually, according to her, aren't valid.  I'm not supposed to be angry with her or frustrated with the cycle she is in or sad because I'm watching her destroy herself. 

I tend to be an approval seeker and the lack of validation from my partner is very painful sometimes and makes me feel unappreciated, unnoticed and used. 
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« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 02:39:43 PM »

My dBPDh and I are going through a process now where I wrote an impact letter and he is working on an emotional restitution letter.  It is really causing him to struggle, looking at his behaviors and how it has impacted me and the children.  Thankfully he has a lot of support through this but he has been very, very difficult lately.  At last he is now being honest that he is feeling a lot of shame and doesn't like looking at the things he has done.  Hopefully we will be through this process soon, it is supposed to help us build real intimacy and I certainly feel better having said what I needed to and being heard.  Without us having 5 therapists involved in this process, I don't think it would have happened.
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« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 03:19:12 PM »

Validation requires empathy, which they completely lack.  In my experience you have a better chance of being appreciated than validated.

What I don't get is empathy is learnable.  But apparently not for BPDs.
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« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 11:05:16 PM »

Excerpt
What I don't get is empathy is learnable.  But apparently not for BPDs.

  I don't know that is true.  I have a friend that is a mostly recovered BPD and she has empathy, it isn't in the quantity that most people have but she does have it.  My dBPDh is learning to have empathy.  Part of the process is apparently learning to have empathy for themselves first, not self-pity (which is what BPDs have in abundance).  There is some scientific evidence that the part of the brain dealing with empathy can be healed in this way.  I am not sure where the article is but I read it after a therapist talked to me about this theory.  Of course, it is one scientists theory.  I was told there is some success with this approach.
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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 06:49:40 AM »

Some have empathy but it can be tainted with a sense of being seen to do the right thing (which is ultimately about them). So it can appear somewhat over the top, or superficial.

Then impulse and neediness will totally override this veneer.

For true empathy the self absorbed tap needs to be first turned off, this is the true hurdle for them to overcome.

Sometimes I think if they turn off their self focus they will believe they cease to exist as they dont believe anyone else cares.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 07:06:48 AM »

Some have empathy but it can be tainted with a sense of being seen to do the right thing (which is ultimately about them). So it can appear somewhat over the top, or superficial.

Then impulse and neediness will totally override this veneer.

For true empathy the self absorbed tap needs to be first turned off, this is the true hurdle for them to overcome.

Sometimes I think if they turn off their self focus they will believe they cease to exist as they dont believe anyone else cares.

That makes a lot of sense.  Whenever I try to teach my BPD gf how to empathize by imaging herself in another person situation she always states "no, I don't like doing that" if I insist she gets upset.  Sometimes when it seems like she attempts to try it results in like a brain freeze where she goes silent for a minute or two and then emerges with some random remark that isn't logical to the situation. 
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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2014, 07:17:36 AM »

I don't know if my husband truly has BPD but I do know that I have a very difficult time validating him. When I do succeed at validating him, it seems like he wants more and more and more. He will say that he wants appreciation and then when I thank him for things or try to show appreciation

If I don't thank you and give your praise, then you make sure to keep pointing these things out even if I have already validated him and made sure that I have acknowledged what he did." It is a struggle for me because I am sometimes triggered by the whole thing and have to be really careful what I say. It is not enough to validate him once. The most recent example was him putting the kids to bed. One night a couple of weeks ago, he put the kids to bed without my help. The next day, he went on and on and on about it. I tried to say things like thank you and tell him how much I appreciated his help.

I am also having a hard time validating my uBPDw, it also seems that it is never enough or that I was supposed to read her mind. I have tried not to be triggered by things that you would think are normal. I have told her I appreciate that she is picking up after herself and helping with dishes and cooking but I keep hearing about it. She is saying that no matter what she does for me that its not enough and I don't show her enough appreciation. Maybe I am wrong to feel like the time she has freed up for me by doing things that she should have been doing so that I can work on all the other things that need done around here (for us) that have been put off isn't showing anything to her.

I have given up on expecting any sort of compliment or validation from my pwBPD.  If she folds laundry or cleans up or does anything I'm expected to notice and tell her thank you.  If I don't right away, then she will point it out to me and fish for compliments.  These are things I do all the time without compliments, so I don't really feel she needs to be complimented like she's done something spectacular for clearing off the table or folding a basket of laundry. 

I have felt this way too and it has been hard for me to change my thinking and try to show her more appreciation or to show it in a way she can see, understand or accept.

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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2014, 09:08:03 AM »

Excerpt
"You need to decide what matters to you most here... .being validated... .or saving your marriage"... .you will not get both... .and likely will never get validation.”

Considering how incredibly hard it is for most of us on this board, who presumably do not have this disorder, to learn how to emotionally validate our partners….

then yes, I think it makes sense that a pwBPD (emotion regulation disorder and relational trauma responses) would find it hard to emotionally validate their partner much of the time. Certainly when they are upset / dysregulated.

It is NOT an accurate statement that pwBPD do not have the capacity to experience empathy. The people I know with this disorder can be incredibly empathic.

However, no one can provide an empathic response when they are upset or feeling attacked or threatened.  That is why it is so hard for US to provide an emotionally validating response to our partners much of the time…it is b/c we are often also getting triggered and feeling attacked.  It takes incredible emotion management skill to calm that down enough to get your brain on line enough to provide an empathic response.

You will not be able to access empathy or give an empathetic response while you are in flight, flight or freeze.

I cannot give an empathic response to save my life when I feel truly threatened or attacked.  

That does not mean I do not have the capacity to feel and provide empathy.




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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2014, 11:25:25 AM »

My fiancé has empathy.  But, it's like everything else with her - black and white.  I think when she feels it, she is overcome by it, and that triggers her shame and depression.  I know she feels it, but I don't know if she knows what it is or what to do with it.  A typical scenario would be this:  She's involved in some kind of situation with someone else.  She comes home, thinks about it, and then says "I feel bad about what happened. Maybe I said the wrong thing and pissed her off."  That's more of a self-centered type of response, but I know empathy is in there somewhere because she seems to care about how the other person felt.  But when it comes out, it sounds like her main care is what the other person now thinks of her.  I know she cares about other people.  She often makes statements about "I feel bad about what happened to ____."  But then again her statement is more about how *she* feels bad.  The empathy feeling is definitely in there, but it seems more likely that she feels it and interprets it through her self-centered filter. 
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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2014, 12:10:14 PM »

My partner cannot access empathy when there has been a problem that HE was a part of, when he is in a relational problem.  He can’t do that b/c he is in fight/flight when it involves HIM.  If HE is involved with a relational problem, and the person is taking about HIM and what HE DID... .then he is working to defend shame and regulate a lot of intense feelings that send him into panic states.  Empathy isn’t even on the radar…staying alive is.

He is excellent, probably better than a lot of people,  in expressing empathy when someone is sharing their a difficulty and it HAS nothing to do with him…meaning, he is not the person involved in any manner in the difficulty. Under those circumstances, he is great.  Because when he is not part of the issue…he isn’t in fight/flight.  He can be extremely empathetic and really “get" how a person is feeling from their point of view under these circumstances.  Almost to a fault.  In fact, he can get into some really codependent dynamics this way…similar to how many of us “NONs” do…b/c he can be so empathetic and wanting to help others with their problems as long as their problems are not about HIM.
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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2014, 02:02:59 PM »

I almost CANNOT believe how much my BPDw will not discuss or consider what her behavior

is doing to me and our family. My feelings... .she flat out says do not matter.

And even at that... .will not even allow me to express them.

This is something I deal with constantly with my uBPDh.  He has done some unspeakable things to me and continues to do them.  During his rages he uses tactics that I wouldn't wish on anyone (today he threw all the food in the house away because we were discussing divorce last night so he made me sign divorce papers right away and didn't like that I wouldn't give him an answer about if I was going to change my name back or not).  Yet he will never ever acknowledge what these things do to me.  He thinks that I should be able to forget about them like he does once his rages are over.  He in no way will recognize that his behavior and actions is the direct cause of my anger and hurt.  When I try to express my feelings, they don't matter and he just turns it around to justify whatever it is he originally did to me.
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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2014, 06:18:48 PM »

My partner cannot access empathy when there has been a problem that HE was a part of, when he is in a relational problem.  He can’t do that b/c he is in fight/flight when it involves HIM.  If HE is involved with a relational problem, and the person is taking about HIM and what HE DID... .then he is working to defend shame and regulate a lot of intense feelings that send him into panic states.  Empathy isn’t even on the radar…staying alive is.

He is excellent, probably better than a lot of people,  in expressing empathy when someone is sharing their a difficulty and it HAS nothing to do with him…meaning, he is not the person involved in any manner in the difficulty. Under those circumstances, he is great.  Because when he is not part of the issue…he isn’t in fight/flight.  He can be extremely empathetic and really “get" how a person is feeling from their point of view under these circumstances.  Almost to a fault.  In fact, he can get into some really codependent dynamics this way…similar to how many of us “NONs” do…b/c he can be so empathetic and wanting to help others with their problems as long as their problems are not about HIM.

This is an important distinction, fight or flight mode overrides everything.

My question is regarding third party empathy. Is this not just another example of mirroring and wanting to bond with the injured party, by taking on their issues. This apparent empathy was probably a big component when you first met them and they were bonding with you. You were receiving this as "finally someone understands me".

Is this empathizing for self benefit? Even seeking validation by playing rescuer role?
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« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 06:49:04 PM »

My question is regarding third party empathy. Is this not just another example of mirroring and wanting to bond with the injured party, by taking on their issues. This apparent empathy was probably a big component when you first met them and they were bonding with you. You were receiving this as "finally someone understands me".

Is this empathizing for self benefit? Even seeking validation by playing rescuer role?

I have a friend who behaves this way, if I'm understanding what you're saying.

After I got divorced she helped me clean out the house/garage of a lot of ex's stuff .  I mean she really helped and seemed so happy to do it!  I appreciated it so much.  She also took quite a few things, which I was happy for her to have.  Later in the season, after not putting things away the way she liked... .  I had invited her over, she saw the garage and got pissed!  "Why isn't this over here and what about the shelves I told you to get?  Blah blah blah... ." 

Another time (before my boundaries were good), she insisted on 'helping' me paint my office.  Okay, sure!  Never again!  She took over ("Just let me do it", wouldn't let me do any of it, like I didn't know how?  Then proceeded to tell me how much she would've liked to have this kind of help after she got divorced. 

She doesn't understand that her help has strings attached; her way or the highway.  Feels that she does too much for people and they don't appreciate her.


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« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 08:26:49 PM »

My question is regarding third party empathy. Is this not just another example of mirroring and wanting to bond with the injured party, by taking on their issues. This apparent empathy was probably a big component when you first met them and they were bonding with you. You were receiving this as "finally someone understands me".

Is this empathizing for self benefit? Even seeking validation by playing rescuer role?

I have a friend who behaves this way, if I'm understanding what you're saying.

After I got divorced she helped me clean out the house/garage of a lot of ex's stuff .  I mean she really helped and seemed so happy to do it!  I appreciated it so much.  She also took quite a few things, which I was happy for her to have.  Later in the season, after not putting things away the way she liked... .  I had invited her over, she saw the garage and got pissed!  "Why isn't this over here and what about the shelves I told you to get?  Blah blah blah... ." 

Another time (before my boundaries were good), she insisted on 'helping' me paint my office.  Okay, sure!  Never again!  She took over ("Just let me do it", wouldn't let me do any of it, like I didn't know how?  Then proceeded to tell me how much she would've liked to have this kind of help after she got divorced. 

She doesn't understand that her help has strings attached; her way or the highway.  Feels that she does too much for people and they don't appreciate her.

I think you have some sort of projecting thing going on their as well. Her 'solution" becoming yours. I have seen this too. In fact it is a lack of empathy as she is not considering how you want things.
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« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 09:28:27 PM »

I never once received validation from my exBPDw of 13+ years. I did a receive a compliment a couple of times which was simply "that shirt looks handsome on you" and even that looked like it took everything she had to actually say those words about a shirt and not me. My self esteem is actually very high mainly due to meeting so many great people since I left my exBPDw. However, before that, I didn't have self esteem. It wasn't low self esteem, it simply didn't exist. "Self esteem" didn't exist in my vocabulary and was an empty cup so to speak.

Lack of validation is something I embraced as a man and as a provider. I grew used to it even though I questioned it from time to time. I assumed men simply didn't receive those sorts of compliments from their significant others. I always believed that she refused to compliment me so that it wouldn't go to my head and so that I could remain beneath her in certain respects. This set a muddled stage of confusion when I began receiving compliments from new people in my life and after a few years I am beginning to become more aware of many positive traits I didn't realize I posessed.

Considering this part of the dance and the beauty of having people validate you for what you offer as a human being makes NC that much easier for me. Please consider everything you offer and let go of the things your BPD partner claimed you lack.
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« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2014, 10:24:10 PM »

Excerpt
My partner cannot access empathy when there has been a problem that HE was a part of, when he is in a relational problem.  He can’t do that b/c he is in fight/flight when it involves HIM.  If HE is involved with a relational problem, and the person is taking about HIM and what HE DID... .then he is working to defend shame and regulate a lot of intense feelings that send him into panic states.  Empathy isn’t even on the radar…staying alive is.

This is it!  The big struggle.  He becomes so shame ridden when he has done something wrong, and he has done MANY.  Right now working through those things and accepting he did them, owning he did them (which he is doing) and starting to learn empathy.  Such a crazy struggle for my dBPDh.  He is being very articulate as to how hard this is.  He said that accepting and dealing with all of the things he has done makes him loathe himself and hits on his core belief that he is unlovable. 
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« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2014, 02:10:47 AM »

Excerpt
My partner cannot access empathy when there has been a problem that HE was a part of, when he is in a relational problem.  He can’t do that b/c he is in fight/flight when it involves HIM.  If HE is involved with a relational problem, and the person is taking about HIM and what HE DID... .then he is working to defend shame and regulate a lot of intense feelings that send him into panic states.  Empathy isn’t even on the radar…staying alive is.

This is it!  The big struggle.  He becomes so shame ridden when he has done something wrong, and he has done MANY.  Right now working through those things and accepting he did them, owning he did them (which he is doing) and starting to learn empathy.  Such a crazy struggle for my dBPDh.  He is being very articulate as to how hard this is.  He said that accepting and dealing with all of the things he has done makes him loathe himself and hits on his core belief that he is unlovable. 

That makes a lot of sense. There have been times when I have asked my husband the question, "How would you feel if I did that to you?" It is a question that I have used on the kids to help them understand the impact of their actions on others. I have often wondered why I could have conversations like that with our kids but not with him. When I try to have those sorts of conversations with him, he looks like a dear in the headlights.

One of the reasons that I have had self esteem problems has been the constant invalidation from him. Sure, there may be occasional compliments and even occasional validation from him but it is seldom or it seems shallow. When trying to share positive things with him, it seems that the first response from him is usually negative. And, in a discussion, things usually have to be about him so that what I say becomes about him. That is the most frustrating thing for me. I don't need a lot of validation but what I do need is to at least be able to not have to try to defend myself. Reading about JADE has helped me to not get into the circular discussions that lead to me feeling even worse about MYSELF. But, there are times that it seems that the only way to really validate him is to completely invalidate myself and tell him how right and how awesome he is.
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« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2014, 04:31:16 AM »

But, there are times that it seems that the only way to really validate him is to completely invalidate myself and tell him how right and how awesome he is.

Don't validate the invalid or it sets a precedent (dig yourself a hole)
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« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2014, 07:49:57 AM »

I believe... .nons learn about life through consequences. We learn that if we do something that hurts someone else, it hurts us so we don't want to do that anymore. I believe, especially with BPDs who have suffered abuse, emotional and or physical, at a young age, the learning process wasn't as linear. It wasn't as cut and dried. It was less consistent and therefore was harder to learn the world and how it works. Pain is real and when its heightened, the brain and body go into survival mode, if survival means lying, getting sympathy, escaping consequences when you don't even know what you did wrong, the lines become blurry and all they learn is "I get hurt" and "other people seem to be okay"... .this becomes a basis upon which everything else is built. And in some situations, as well, the primary caregiver was "about themselves" so they learned what works in that situation. But we all have a need to connect and this is a primary need hence their struggle. It's hard to convince someone to face the consequences and admit fault when they learned doing so leaves them accused rather than understood and forgiven... .We all have our own learned world view... .which also influences view of oneself... .and we function based upon it... .
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« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2014, 12:26:03 PM »

Reading these is amazing to me... .you live something long enough you tend to think its normal... .my spouse reports to me every little thing he does in the house constantly.  He even calls me to tell me he bought bananas... .He reports when he cleans a toilet, waters the yard, polishes a sink (he also is OCD)... .every time I thank him for ALL his hard work but it is never enough... .I have even explained to him that normal living together we both do things... .we don't need to report every tiny detail... .when I praise him he says it isn't necessary ,yet if I don't... .he eventually will say I dont appreciate him... .his neediness is overwhelming most of the time now... .doesn't help that he isn't working right now and I work at home... .so it is a relentless, crazy making, way to live... .
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waverider
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2014, 04:47:34 PM »

Reading these is amazing to me... .you live something long enough you tend to think its normal... .my spouse reports to me every little thing he does in the house constantly.  He even calls me to tell me he bought bananas... .He reports when he cleans a toilet, waters the yard, polishes a sink (he also is OCD)... .every time I thank him for ALL his hard work but it is never enough... .I have even explained to him that normal living together we both do things... .we don't need to report every tiny detail... .when I praise him he says it isn't necessary ,yet if I don't... .he eventually will say I dont appreciate him... .his neediness is overwhelming most of the time now... .doesn't help that he isn't working right now and I work at home... .so it is a relentless, crazy making, way to live... .

I get this too, emptied the dishwasher/wiped the kitchen bench tops/ tidied the lounge room (her version means just straightened the cushions)... They all deserve a phone call.

The truth is she does very little, and so has to milk whatever she does do. I also get a presale, I get to hear about the fact that she is going to empty the dishwasher/wipe the benches etc... even if she eventually doesn't get around to it.

Its not about doing the task out of responsibility, it is about obtaining praise. So you have to balance giving validation against feeding a self serving need and setting a precedent. You can end up taking away the understanding that things are done as part of the obligations of contributing
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