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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: first day of school drama  (Read 543 times)
momtara
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« on: September 03, 2014, 10:20:10 AM »

So I'm in this little court thing with ex in order to keep him in counseling.  We've both postponed court several times.  Tomorrow we had a date scheduled to finally resolve everything, and I asked my L to postpone it because our child starts school and I wanted to make sure to be around if there are problems.  There was an orientation today and exH came and was angry that I changed court.  He called me abusive, neglectful, and said our kids will end up "retarded" because of me.  He can also be wonderful, smart and sweet, when not triggered by something.  He kept using those cruel words in front of our child and I said we didn't want our child growing up hearing those words.  We got to school and he kept scolding me over and over.  It only stopped when we actually got into the classroom, but by then I was kind of shaken.  Our child didn't say anything in response.  ExH then warmed up a bit and was playing and stuff, but then he left at the end without saying goodbye to either me or our kid.

It's this kind of behavior that just makes me think he really doesn't care about the kids - but sometimes it seems like he really does.  He can't seem to control himself enough to stop berating me when triggered.

It's not making me feel too kind about letting him off the hook regarding this court thing right now.  I still worry about the kids being in his care, but he's never done anything physical to them.  It's odd how I start thinking things are getting better, and then he turns into this awful person.

I don't know, I guess I wanted to vent but also wonder if you have all experienced similar things, and if it makes you nervous.  He can be great when he's not triggered.  I wonder if I'll always walk on eggshells a bit.

Oddly, my ex is all gung ho on going to court even though he might end up looking bad.  We tried to work out an agreement but are arguing over one point about him having to give occasional notification of seeing his therapists.  I'm kind of scared of family court, because he will look professional and good.  I keep telling myself I have nothing to lose - he does.  Custody was decided long ago.  We are mainly resolving something regarding his staying in therapy.
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momtara
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« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 02:11:04 PM »

well, they accepted my proposed settlement (probably because x is so nutty).  so no court.  another crisis averted!  for now. 
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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2014, 07:09:47 PM »

It sounds like you drove to the school orientation together?
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momtara
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« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2014, 10:06:21 PM »

He drove.  I walked.  We met up outside the school.  We rarely do anything together anymore, although as the kids get older and more involved in things, there may be more events for us to have to attend together.

Our court settlement is that he has to provide annual notifications from his therapists saying he's still in counseling and following their recommendations.

He is now on a tear, saying all kinds of bothersome stuff to me, texting, etc.  He sent me a text tonight claiming I hit our son!  I think this will cool off.  I just don't know what more I could have done.  As people say here, you can't make someone stay in therapy and on medication.  He is smart enough not to threaten the kids or me - just drives me crazy with his nonsense.  As everone says, I have to not engage him.

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« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2014, 10:25:49 PM »

Make sure you have any accusations documented.  Texts aren't as good as e-mails, but there are ways to document texts - if you don't know how, let us know, and somebody will suggest a way.

I would suggest that you only communicate by e-mail, and only respond to practical, appropriate stuff about the kids.  It sounds like you are making yourself avaiable to him, so he can abuse you - I did that too, for many years - and when you take a step back, and don't make yourself available to him, life will get better.

If he actively reaches out to you, and communicates in ways you don't want, you can probably file an order of protection or restraining order to stop that.

Or if he has a lawyer, let his lawyer know what is happening, so he can advise his client to leave you alone.  "If your client continues to contact me - except appropriate e-mails about the kids - I will seek an Order Of Protection.  Please advise him accordingly."

You don't have to put up with this stuff, but you can't fix him - you have to remove yourself from his presence - physical and electronic - so he can't continue the abuse.
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momtara
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« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2014, 10:45:28 PM »

Yep.

I informed my own lawyer about the abuse.  She may send his lawyer a letter.
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2014, 03:11:29 PM »

My question is why are you allowing the abuse?  Are you documenting for a better order? 

I made it clear communications would be through his attorney.  Visitation exchanges would be in public, anything he had to say to me could be sent in an email.  I sent them to Save mostly unread.  Divorce meant he lost his privledge to inflict pain on DD and I at will.
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2014, 06:44:16 PM »

I am documenting because he barely has any parenting time as it is.  To change custody, he'd next have to get supervised.  I've heard that's a high standard.  As for putting up with it in the meantime, I want to keep lines of communication open, and in the past he's calmed down after a few days of anger.  But I don't know... .
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 05:53:42 PM »

He called me abusive, neglectful, and said our kids will end up "retarded" because of me.  He can also be wonderful, smart and sweet, when not triggered by something.  He kept using those cruel words in front of our child and I said we didn't want our child growing up hearing those words.  We got to school and he kept scolding me over and over.  It only stopped when we actually got into the classroom, but by then I was kind of shaken.  Our child didn't say anything in response. 

How are you helping your D deal with this kind of interaction? Whatever you do, however you respond, that's what she will likely think is normal. If something like this happens, and the two of you don't talk it through, then she may think that's what people do. ":)ad is mean to mom, then mom doesn't say anything. I'm going to do that too." Or, she'll model what your ex does, and see if you respond the same way.

If you can't talk to her when it's happening, it's ok to talk to her later. Help her work through her feelings. "How did you feel when daddy said those things?"

It might also be time to tell your ex that if he can't keep his abuse in check, then you are not going to show up at these events together. It's better for your kids if they don't have to manage that tension. It cut my son to pieces when we were both there, and it took me a while to figure out how to help him manage the stress he was feeling. By now, you know what your ex can be like, and so does your D. You can tell her in kid terms that you notice that her dad sometimes says mean things, and you don't like it. You're going to deal with it by doing x, and that way you are taking care of yourself.

It will go a long way to help her find solutions when she is in a similar situation. That's the royally crappy thing about having a BPD parent -- they think bad behavior is normal. We have to help them see that no, it isn't. That's why we set boundaries, take care of ourselves, and let people be close to us when they know how to behave nicely.

I wish I had known about BPD when my son was your D's age. It took my breath away when I saw all these behaviors take root. They usually show up in a troubling way around age 8, in 3rd grade. If you catch it now, it will save you some serious worry later when they start acting out family dynamics on their friends. And then losing those friends.  :'(

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« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 09:42:55 PM »

We almost never do anything together.  It was a back to school orientation.  I would say the times we go to events together are 2x/year at most.  We basically met up outside the school to go in. 

However, as you saw in my other thread, he ranted and raved when he came to get the kids last week, so if that happens again, I have to do something.
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 09:46:45 PM »

However, as you saw in my other thread, he ranted and raved when he came to get the kids last week, so if that happens again, I have to do something.

So what will you do when it happens again?
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 10:14:15 PM »

Well, that's what I'm trying to figure out on the other thread.

Some choices:

I can refuse to let him take the kids.  But if I do, I have to really show justification if it goes to court, and also figure out if it's worth the chance that he won't get supervised visitation (or will get it on a limited basis) and will just get the kids back, only more angry. 

I can flatly tell him to stop behaving this way.  He may just stop, but then still takes the kids and is fuming even more, which I don't like.  It's not as if he can control his mental illness.  Making him fume silently may be worse.

I can go to court to ask for supervised visitation.  But in my state, you have to say that harm will come to the childre if the matter isn't deal with right away.  Not sure if that means physical harm.

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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 11:18:58 PM »

I never have this issue - haven't for many years.  (My kids are older now - the youngest 16 - but the youngest was 8 when we separated.)

I almost never see their mom.  After some bad approaches, I decided the best way was to arrange things so I don't see her at the exchanges.  I had that (more or less) written into the court order:  I do all the driving, and the exchanges are at her place.

If I even see her, I drive away.  If the kids are still in the car, I drive away with them, and then figure out what to do.  (That has only happened once.)  If the kids are out of the car, I drive away without them - awkward but OK since I know they are OK.

I have not spoken with their mom at an exchange for at least five years.  I run into her from time to time, but I've probably only spoke ten or twenty words to her this year - "Hello", "The kids are over there", etc.

I aim to never put myself in the position where she and I are in the same place, except if I can walk or drive away at any moment.  I do not put up with anything inappropriate - not a word - or I turn and walk away.  If it's on the phone, I hang up and don't answer if she calls back.

Once I started removing myself from situations where she has the option to bully me, life got way better.

I would be harder to do this when the kids are small, but it's worth thinking about how you could do it.  For example, can you have your lawyer tell his lawyer, "If your client speaks to mine, she will remove herself from the situation and file a restraining order the same day."  Or, "Please tell your client to remain in his home.  My client will bring the kids to the door and knock.  No conversation between the parents or we will seek to end unsupervised visits."  Or whatever you think is appropriate to end the interaction between you.
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 05:32:11 AM »

I think limiting our contact at exchanges is a great idea.  I am not going to eliminate it totally, and here's why:   I want to know if he's in a terrible mood or belligerent - it may mean the kids shouldn't go with him.  So yes, a little bit, I have to put myself in the line of fire.  This was the worst he's been, and I hope it calms down.

I have thought of getting a car to take the kids to and from his parents' place and am hoping to do it after this winter.  But that makes it almost too easy for him, especially if there is a weekend he feels he can't handle them.  If he wants to not see them, and I'm gonna drive, he may just keep his mouth shut and let me bring them.

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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 10:28:06 AM »

I want to know if he's in a terrible mood or belligerent

I'm wondering if you might be struggling with something that I did... .it's hard to tell from reading posts on the Internet and not having all the other information we use to understand the whole picture. But the sentence you wrote above made me think maybe you have this dichotomy going on inside that is confusing people? As in lawyers. On one hand you feel sick with worry, but on the other hand you come across very stoic, almost downplaying things. Like it's not that bad. Your ex is great, loves the kids, when he's good he's wonderful. You wish he could be like that all the time, etc. But then you'll say you're worried about his behavior. People outside what you're experiencing are going to having a hard time following, maybe even not sure whether you're credible. He's either a danger to your kids, or he's not. He can't be sometimes dangerous, or sometimes frightening. Even dangerous people are not dangerous all the time. Does that make sense? People here understand. Regular people don't.

Because you're talking about a very ill man who is being treated for bipolar, who could have something more severe. But then you say you're worried about him having a terrible mood. Lots of people experience terrible moods. Very few people experience a type of debilitating mood disorder that can make them experience delusions and mania. After my deposition, I got a copy of the transcript. For depositions, they actually count the instance of each word you use. My ex's L started to refer to me as "confused." When I looked at the deposition transcript, I realized I used the word "confusing" more than the word "abuse." Matt actually helped me with this. I was describing N/BPDx's behavior as confusing, because I found it difficult to say abusive, or dangerous, or psychotic, or seriously unstable and alarming. Maybe something similar is going on for you?

My lawyer is the first person who pointed out how I was downplayed the abuse. She said, "You are describing a truly disturbing scenario with no emotion in your voice, like you're reading me your grocery list." It was true. One of the worst nights of our marriage and I was describing it like it was nothing. I know in my heart it is abuse, but for some reason, it didn't come through in my words or my tone of voice. I think it's because I was numb to it, and didn't realize just how numb I was.

This is why therapy is so important. Because it could be that you're looking to others to validate whether your ex's behavior is bad. I wonder if that was going on with your PC a little? You finally had someone who validated that yes, your ex is sick. He's a danger. You need more of that to help you get your feelings back up to the surface so you feel credible, not only to others but to yourself.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that you might be sending mixed signals to people. Do you think maybe there's a part of you that is blunting your emotions when you talk about your fears? Does it feel shaming or embarrassing to describe how truly afraid and scared you are of your ex's behaviors? You seem uncertain... .I can definitely sense your anxiety. I don't at all get a sense that you are afraid. I'm wondering if this mixed message might be sabotaging you when you talk to lawyers? Or holding you back when you need to decide if a situation is dangerous or not?






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« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2014, 02:44:54 PM »

YES!  Your advice is so helpful, because I guess you were where I am now.  My therapist said something very similar today.  He said I am going back and forth and it probably confuses everyone, including my L.  OK, fair enough.  I will work on everything more - boundaries, consistency, clear goals, etc.

Thing is, he may be POTENTIALLY dangerous.  He scares me.  And then he goes back to being ok for a while.  And I start feeling bad for him.  How am I supposed to know what to do?  So I end up reading tea leaves. 

He hasn't given an indication (yet) that he is truly dangerous, just that he seems ready to explode.  Hasn't quite exploded, but often seems ready. 

I know what I have to do:  Set boundaries, not respond to his wacky texts or calls. 

My T said not to withhold the kids (unless there's obvious danger, obviously)... .but send clear notes to him saying the behavior is not acceptable, and have my L write to his therapists.
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« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2014, 03:20:49 PM »

You just did it again  Smiling (click to insert in post)

He's dangerous. You know he's dangerous. He's definitely abusive. Even if he's only abusive some of the time, he's abusive. Even if he scares you some of the time, he's scaring you. He will bully you and say anything he can to get you to engage. Doesn't matter if it hurts you or scares you, he will do it. Doesn't matter if it hurts the kids, he will do it. That's his go-to place when he feels cornered. That's his coping mechanism.

Thing is, he may be POTENTIALLY dangerous.  He scares me.  And then he goes back to being ok for a while.  And I start feeling bad for him.

He scares you. Why? What happens? What is the feeling you have when he's like that? Is there a similar feeling you had when you were little, one that is connected? What are the parallels between your mom's behavior and your ex's behavior? How are they different?

You don't need to answer  Smiling (click to insert in post) I'm not your therapist. But there may be a really powerful script running through your head. One that's been there so long you don't even know what it would be like without it.

It would scare me too if my ex put my infant child in a dangerous situation just to spite me, or to make a point. That is seriously disordered behavior. That's really messed up. It's also very messed up to be diagnosed with a serious mood disorder, lie about taking the medication, and then not take it, especially when there is an open custody case that could endanger his access to the kids. He's a very ill, unstable man.

How am I supposed to know what to do?  So I end up reading tea leaves.

You're in a really tough position, momtara. Your babies are really vulnerable, and that makes you vulnerable. But you've amazing progress -- it's clear in your posts. You're setting boundaries and feeling your way in an incredibly tough position. You're a single mom raising two young kids, meanwhile trying to protect them from their father's mental illness. Not easy! Plus the legal stuff, which is enough to drive anyone to a breakdown.

Keep document like you're doing, and keep focusing on your healing. You're getting stronger, and seeing things more clearly. That's going to go a long way, especially when it starts to trickle down to your kids. Having a strong healthy mama is going to be the best gift you give them.

My T said not to withhold the kids (unless there's obvious danger, obviously)... .but send clear notes to him saying the behavior is not acceptable, and have my L write to his therapists.

Be cautious about taking legal advice from your T. Even though my T is sharp, and very insightful, and has been deposed a lot for court, and testified a bunch, I separate in my mind when she crosses over to telling me what to do legally. I do take advice about setting boundaries, or asserting myself, or other things I do to sabotage myself in and around court stuff. I especially listen to her advice about parenting S13. I have some bad habits that I learned from my own parents, and she's great helping me with that.

Just make sure to check with your L if you have doubts.

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« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2014, 03:44:02 PM »

Yeah, a very important point, and easy to see from a distance, but sometimes hard to see up close... .

My wife was fine most of the time, except when she wasn't.  Violent a few times, but the straw that broke the camel's back was when she called 911 and accused me of assault, which led to lots of problems, cost and stress.

My criminal defense attorney told me, "If you are going to be around her - ever - without a non-family adult third party present, you'll need to find another lawyer.  Because I won't have a client who is doing that."  His point was that if I gave her any opportunity - if I put myself at risk again - things would be likely to get worse, and all his work would be wasted.

If I think about any other adult in my life, I have no concern at all about being around them, without someone else present.  Nobody else would get violent or make some false accusation against me - it's just not how most people act.  But I was so used to my wife's erratic behavior, it had to be pointed out to me, that by being around her, even once in a while, I was putting myself at risk for no good reason.  Which sends a big mixed message to everybody who doesn't know her:  "Her behavior is more-or-less normal - normal enough for me to choose to be alone with her sometimes."  Not true, and not a good signal for me to send... .
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 05:35:11 AM »

Thanks.  LandL, you give such good advice.  My lawyer has stopped responding.  My T said she is probably irked that I keep buckling.  

Matt, I wish my L was like yours and more direct and clear.  I went to 10 before picking this one.  They all have their pluses and minuses.

You're right about my T and legal advice - but it's hard to know whose advice to take in this confusing situation.  He works with the courts but he is NOT a forensic psych.  Maybe I need a consultation with a custody evaluator or something.  I've asked so many people for advice.  The last lawyer told me not to bother doing anything else in court, as there are worse cases.  I don't know if I buy that.  My L responds in short sentences.  My T said what I just mentioned.

I am frustrated that I let my ex off supervised visitation with an agreement that didn't do more.  I think there's really no way to make him stay on his medication or in therapy anyway.  The agreement we agree on allows us to start with a parent coordinator in November and also says he has to give yearly letters from his docs saying he's staying in therapy.  I guess I should have made the letters more often and started the PC right away.  Of course, his behavior got worse only after we signed the thing... .

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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 12:29:48 PM »

I might be over-analyzing here -- I'm not a therapist.

But I can't help but think that some of the confusion might be partly because you are re-experiencing a script from childhood where you want other people -- the grown-ups -- to help fix things. Other people might take care of your mom so you don't have to.

The problem is that you are now the grown-up. You're the one who you were waiting for as a kid. You're good at following rules and doing things right. Maybe even perfectly -- and that can be terribly paralyzing. Add to that a very real and genuine concern, the safety of your young children. Add to that a strong rescuing-fixing streak.

It's a perfect storm.

You are the boss here. No one knows this situation as well as you. Not the lawyers, not the therapists, not us.

The uncertainty you feel is real, momtara. Everyone in the situation, whether close to it or more peripheral, they are also uncertain. Difference is that they don't have the emotional investment, so their uncertainty is probably not something you sense acutely. Some of them know a lot about one or two things, but not about the whole picture. You know a lot about your ex and how he behaves, but not about the ins and outs of legal stuff. Your therapist knows a little bit about court, and something about you, and a little bit about your ex, and a lot about some mental illness, although not all of them, and not in the way you do having grown up with it and then married it.

You will make mistakes doing this. You already have. And it's been ok -- you landed on your feet. Your kids are ok. You are 100% going to make more mistakes, and the kids may be ok even then. You could do things perfectly, and then something happens. Even if you stripped your ex of his parental rights and the kids never saw their dad, that could have a lasting effect that you can't control or foresee or fix.

This work you're doing -- the emotional and psychological work -- it is minute-by-minute, moment-to-moment. Every now and then you'll get a big epiphany. Someone will say something a certain way and you'll see a big opening and walk through and it will feel like the entire world just lifted from your shoulders. And then in the next minute, you'll be thrown back into the work again, trying to figure out how to focus on your reactions to the hard situation you're in.

The bottom line to this is that you are growing and stretching beyond the emotional place you were at when you began. It's going to hurt, and feel uncertain, and sometimes it will be terrifying. Some of that terror will be stuff you create, and some will be justified by the behavior your ex displays.

Keep going. You're in it now, just keep going. Embrace that there is uncertainty, and that you are the person in charge of this situation. Everyone is uncertain -- no one has the answer. And you have the best instincts of anyone here for your situation. Go stand in your big shoes.  
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 01:43:29 PM »

":)ifference is that they don't have the emotional investment"

A great point, and a true one.  That's actually a problem.  Ultimately, these professionals are giving me advice based on their other cases and experiences.  It's not their kids.  I don't think my situation is just like theirs.  But like you also said, I make the mistake of thinking I can control the situation - and I can't.  I always think I would know when my exH is going to take a turn for the worse.  But I don't.  If he is really getting worse, I can't control it or prevent it.  I can avoid exacerbating the situation, true. 

All I can do right now, I think, is watch carefully.  Even then, I may not know where he's crossing a line.  The lines are subtle.  He's mentally ill, he's potentially dangerous, but does he know where to stop? 

I appreciate you, LandL.  You are very wise and see a lot of things most people have not seen.

Today I had a thought of writing exH a letter saying, you must do X and Y or I'll go back to court.  You must give a letter saying you're seeing your psychiatrist every four weeks, or I am going to file for contempt and put you back under supervised visitation.  It might work.  I'm not sure. 
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 03:00:49 PM »

Usually it doesn't work to say to someone with BPD, "You must do X." or even "You must do X or I will do Y."

Boundaries are usually something like, "If you do X I will do Y."  Kind of the same as "You must do X or I will do Y." but not quite.

A boundary is a statement of what you will do, not an attempt to persuade or control the other person.

To make it work, you have to be prepared to do what you say, without arguing or negotiating.

"Today I had a thought of writing exH a letter saying, you must do X and Y or I'll go back to court.  You must give a letter saying you're seeing your psychiatrist every four weeks, or I am going to file for contempt and put you back under supervised visitation.  It might work.  I'm not sure."  Another approach would be, decide what is best for the kids and file a motion for that.  If your ex hasn't done what he is supposed to do, file motion for contempt.  If you believe supervised visitation is best, file that motion, with whatever supporting information you can.  No "If you don't... .", just the motion for what you believe is best.

No matter what you do, it might not work.  If it relies on your ex changing his ways, it almost certainly won't work.  He is who he is, and he acts the way he does for reasons that are inside him.  The only way he will change is with extensive therapy.  So the more you think in terms of him changing, the more frustrated you will be.
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