Can a pwBPD nurture us?

[formflier]

In a pwBPD, I think they can change behaviour and be more nurturing, but it will be more mechanical. The subtleties and intuition of it must be very difficult to learn.

And I would hope that when we do see a change in behavior from a pwBPD that we all realize that it was most likely much harder for them to change... .than it is for us.  We all need to think about how to validate and honor the hard work that went into that change.

Let's bring physics into this... .the physics of the "dance"... .and unfortunately for most of us when we showed up here... .that dance was dysfunctional.  Some of that fault was "theirs"... .some was "ours". 

As changes are made in the r/s the momentum of the "dance" starts to shift from negative to positive.  Once that shift happens we want to make sure that both parties... .the non and the pwBPD... .are encouraged to increasing the momentum in the right direction... .

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

I think not everyone here agrees what nurturing means.

Some view it as preparing food, taking care of the physical element of our needs. Well, I am sure many BPD people do that. My wife also - but only kind of. It's up to her mood, almost never really doing it for me but rather what SHE wants to do.

I think this is all part of the issue with difficulties in being consistent, and her own needs and impulses overriding everthing. I get a lot of this. Used to really frustrate me, until I realize her intend is right, its just her capabilities are often impaired. What she feels like doing is probably her prime motivator. Do you think she is doing her best?

As for more of a support, love and TLC... .it's hard for me to imagine which BPD is even capable of doing it.

When I tell my wife about my day - good or bad - she almost always stops me mid-sentence because she had to say something, or she got a whatsapp message... .I feel I talk to the wall then.

I get lots of love, support and TLC, then she gets distracted by her own things. It can feel invalidating if anything. The frustration from that is my problem really. It is the nature of the way the disorder affects her. I know this and should just accept that no malice is intended

Not all pwBPD are affected this way but it is common. We have to learn what is really meant by OUR pwBPD as that is who we have to  harmonize with, no one else's.

My particular RS is not consistent or balanced but there are areas where support and care is way higher than the norm, but other areas when the ball is dropped completely.

I guess she is not going to change in the short run so my job is to shift my balance to be more in sync. Its not easy but it is rewarding.

[formflier]

We have to learn what is really meant by OUR pwBPD as that is who we have to  harmonize with, no one else's.

HUGE statement that we all should take some time to consider.

So... yes... .we come here to read lessons... .talk about lessons... .talk about generalities of the disorder but then we have to be nimble enough on our feet to apply the theory to the nuance of our particular r/s. 

With all of the different ways that BPD traits can present themselves... .that is no small task.

But an extremely rewarding task... .

[Moselle]

She did well for about 2 minutes and she really made me feel loved!, so she is making an effort which I reinforced. 

How did you reinforce this?

So... since it is obvious (correct me if I am wrong... .) that she is taking some steps in the right direction... .the direction that you want... .how are you going to reciprocate... .to honor her choices?

I thanked her for her efforts, and told her that it made me feel loved. I explained that it helps me feel valued, visible, and appreciated. I also explained that when there is reciprocation, it helps me feel more positive about her requests and needs, which are many :-)

To reciprocate I am helping her feel safe emotionally, and protected. She had some issues later on this morning about money (she feels controlled in this aspect of our lives), and I validated her feelings, by listening carefully and explaining that it was her reality and was entitled to that feeling. I did SE with her. PS, I have controlled the money very tightly since some very serious spending issues that she had/has. I'm not sure how to ease up safely in this aspect, but I think she felt listened to and heard.

Yes, she is making choices to head in a healthy direction. She is even talking about the importance of boundaries, and how safe she feels with them! I am impressed

[waverider]

Nurturing is different for each of us, and may even vary within each person depending on the context. What is nurturing one day, might feel condescending the next day. Or nurturing in front of friends might be embarrassing for one, and the height of validation for another.

This intuitive, context specific skill set, allows most of us to read between the lines in terms of interpersonal relationships. It is a healthy dance.

We can come away from an interaction with anybody, and know very clearly whether we have been nurtured or not, but not really know what was said or done that made us feel that way. Much of it is subconscious, and includes body language, so it is indeed not surprising that we would have a different view of it.

In a pwBPD, I think they can change behaviour and be more nurturing, but it will be more mechanical. The subtleties and intuition of it must be very difficult to learn.

I think a lot of it is because they often misinterpret the needs of others, or the reactions others have to their actions. Things can be done with the best of intentions to make us feel better, but it can miss the mark and they may be slow to realize this and hence not be in sync with our needs.

Its the feedback for their actions link that is often the weakness.

Maybe we can improve this if are more clear about what our needs are and are not

[Moselle]

Solid answers... .

What's the difference in supposing... .and choosing?

Which gives you more power?

Point taken, "choosing" is assertive and taking accountability for our thoughts (thence our feelings) and actions.

"Supposing" is very passive, and blah

And I would hope that when we do see a change in behavior from a pwBPD that we all realize that it was most likely much harder for them to change... .than it is for us.  We all need to think about how to validate and honor the hard work that went into that change.

Is this true? I think change is hard for everyone.

[formflier]

Is this true? I think change is hard for everyone.

True... .I think a better statement might be that change for them is different.

But I also might stick with harder.  If we accept that "nons" are "healthier"... .and that a "healthy" person has an easier time identifying "issues" and then changing to adapt... .then I think I will argue my first statement is accurate.

But... yes... .change can be hard for all of us.  Especially when we are "stuck".  Maybe it's easier for nons to get unstuck... .

Thoughts?

[waverider]

Sometimes it is hard for us to envisage just how hard things are for them, especially when we are having such a hard time coping ourselves.

Cant get any harder than that 

[Moselle]

True... .I think a better statement might be that change for them is different.

But I also might stick with harder.  If we accept that "nons" are "healthier"... .and that a "healthy" person has an easier time identifying "issues" and then changing to adapt... .then I think I will argue my first statement is accurate.

But... yes... .change can be hard for all of us.  Especially when we are "stuck".  Maybe it's easier for nons to get unstuck... .

Thoughts?

Change is actually something I find interesting and challenging, thrilling even. And it seems to me that my pwBPD finds change difficult, and prefers a set routine, structure and status quo.

So perhaps you're right, non's seem more adaptable and open to change, and pwBPD more rigid.

[workinprogress]

It's funny, tonight while my wife at her zumba class dancing with her friends (she hasn't danced with me in 12 years, even though I asked her many times) I fed the kids, the dogs, took out the garbage, and cleaned up the dog poop in the back yard.  Now, I have paperwork to do.

While I was taking out the garbage it occurred to me out of the blue that I haven't had any of my needs met nearly my whole life!

My wife has barely touched my body in the last 16 years.

She gets mad if I try to hug her, but she hugs everyone else she sees.

She never tells me that she loves me.  She said her dad never told her so she has trouble saying it.

She doesn't cook things I like.

She never wanted to go out on dates with me, friends had to always be around.

When I try to talk to her I have to watch everything I say.

I get no empathy at all.  When I told her I was tired from working 2 weeks straight she said, "everyone has to work."

When I complained that we didn't have sex she would say "things change, get over it."

If I make the slightest mistake she is mad forever about it.

I, too, feel like a sperm donor and a human checkbook.  As for an example of this, my wife and one of her idiot (sorry) BPD friends told my kids that they should marry for money!

I don't know how much longer I can do this.

My God I feel so,sorry for you brother! What you describe here is exactly what I experienced in my 18yr marriage before I caught my uBPDxw cheating and it all ended last year. Our whole relationship was all about her. I was never her lover, friend and soulmate. I was solely her provider and fatherly figure. Then in the end she devalued me and threw me into the trash which actually turned out to be a good thing for me. Sperm donor and checkbook, yeah that was me too. Didn't even get to donate much sperm the last several years either. She was getting it elsewhere.

Whatever you do from here on out I hope you find peace Workinprogress. I know what you're going through!

MWC... .

Thank you so much, MWC!  I have been so torn for the last 16 years.  She was a great wife until she started hanging around other BPD stay at home moms.  I remember packing my bags one night and calling a cab.  I had enough.  I looked at my oldest son who was just a little kid, around 5 years old or so, and I couldn't do it.

Now I think of my youngest son, he is 14.  We are so close.  It would rip my heart out to go. 

I try to get things to work and my wife just isn't receptive.  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

It's tough going through life like this.

[formflier]

 

  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

What do you think the reason is?

[workinprogress]

 

  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

What do you think the reason is?

When it works for her image.

When she was hanging around her BPD friends, they all treated their husbands badly, so my wife treated me badly.  When it became common knowledge that her friends were all cheating on their husbands, my wife suddenly turned into the most devoted wife in the world.  That was because it was out that her friends were doing what they were doing, and she didn't want her image tarnished.

I really suspect that she was cheating at the time, then stopped when everything was getting exposed.

Other times she became good to me was when I got a better job than the one I had.

She would suddenly be nice to me whenever her latest friend and her had a falling out.

Also, I noticed she becoming much nicer to me a couple of months before my annual bonus comes out.

Lastly, if we are going together as a couple to an event of some kind, she will be very nice.  Then, after the event she becomes cold again.

I think that I am getting her patterns figured out.

For years I clung to these positive changes with all my heart.  Only to have my heart busted again.  I'm much wiser now.

[Moselle]

 

  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

What do you think the reason is?

When it works for her image.

When she was hanging around her BPD friends, they all treated their husbands badly, so my wife treated me badly.  When it became common knowledge that her friends were all cheating on their husbands, my wife suddenly turned into the most devoted wife in the world.  That was because it was out that her friends were doing what they were doing, and she didn't want her image tarnished.

I really suspect that she was cheating at the time, then stopped when everything was getting exposed.

Other times she became good to me was when I got a better job than the one I had.

She would suddenly be nice to me whenever her latest friend and her had a falling out.

Also, I noticed she becoming much nicer to me a couple of months before my annual bonus comes out.

Lastly, if we are going together as a couple to an event of some kind, she will be very nice.  Then, after the event she becomes cold again.

I think that I am getting her patterns figured out.

For years I clung to these positive changes with all my heart.  Only to have my heart busted again.  I'm much wiser now.

Hi WIP,

I can definitely empathise with that. It may appear that it's all about their image to us, because we feel the pressure to maintain that image. I call it the facade. One for church, one for being with the friends, one for work colleagues, and I'm sure you know the one for home LOL.

But as I research I begin to see a person, who because of abandonment issues from either a neglectful or an abusive parent, is desperately mirroring the people around her, because that's what she does to feel like a real person. Because deep down she feels that she is nothing, literally nothing. If she can keep up the mirrors, and reflect what people around her expect, maybe she can be accepted, just maybe, and if the people around her accept her, just maybe she isn't nothing, she has value.

And then I begin to feel some compassion, not alot mind you, but a bit, and there's alot of anger towards those neglectful parents, or abusive ones as the case may be. But then again, perhaps they were abused/neglected and developed mirrors themselves.

Not my problem right? I'm afraid it is now

[waverider]

The mirroring and facades are not deceitful as such, it is much as Averyron is pointing out it can be their attempts to build themselves a persona due to the lack of a real solid one of there own.

Kind of that looks good so I want to be like that to. I once heard someone use the phrase that someone who does this is an "air guitarist", going through the motions of who they would like to be, but not actually producing the goods. A sort of naivety with a touch of delusion.

Dont wait for a an air guitarist to produce a hit record, but no need to destroy their dreams either, if that is all they have, they are doing their best

[Moselle]

Classic quote!

pwBPD = "An air guitarist, with a sort of naivety and a touch of delusion"

[Moselle]

So... since it is obvious (correct me if I am wrong... .) that she is taking some steps in the right direction... .the direction that you want... .how are you going to reciprocate... .to honor her choices?

I got an sms to thank me for providing for the family. That's also a first. Yes, she's heading in the right direction!

[formflier]

So... since it is obvious (correct me if I am wrong... .) that she is taking some steps in the right direction... .the direction that you want... .how are you going to reciprocate... .to honor her choices?

I got an sms to thank me for providing for the family. That's also a first. Yes, she's heading in the right direction!

Great!  

What will you do to reciprocate... .? 

[Moselle]

So... since it is obvious (correct me if I am wrong... .) that she is taking some steps in the right direction... .the direction that you want... .how are you going to reciprocate... .to honor her choices?

I got an sms to thank me for providing for the family. That's also a first. Yes, she's heading in the right direction!

Great!  

What will you do to reciprocate... .? 

Those darn questions again :-) Nothing yet.

I had a minor vent/dysregulation of my own though. I saw a woman nurturing her child and husband in a restaurant and I thought that's what I want, someone who gets it, without me having to structure it, ask for it, and coach it. Not who gives me 2 minutes of nurturing before a 15 minute tirade of her own needs, and a solitary, contrived complimentary sms. OK, now that's out the way, I can try to reciprocate. I sent back a smily face and an sms hug. Does that count? I didn't think so.

I'll send her a reciprocal sms validating her efforts and her feelings, and highlighting her talents. She is a very talented and accomplished woman BTW. It was a big part of my initial attraction.

Thanks for the coaching!

[formflier]

 

Looking forward to hearing back on the reaction to the sms... .

Anyone else out there with a suggestion on next steps.

Seems to me that there is a decision point here... .there can either be a reciprocation... .sms for sms... .or a chance to step it up a notch.

Looking forward to hearing input and suggestions from everyone... .

[Moselle]

Looking forward to hearing back on the reaction to the sms... .

Anyone else out there with a suggestion on next steps.

Seems to me that there is a decision point here... .there can either be a reciprocation... .sms for sms... .or a chance to step it up a notch.

Looking forward to hearing input and suggestions from everyone... .

Ha ha decided to phone instead. Began very well. I started telling her how good it was to have a woman in my life, that I enjoyed the variation and uniqueness of womanhood, and her particularly. It went well and then she started shouting at the children to get out of her room, so I said it sounds like you're having a tough time, but I don't appreciate you speaking to the children like that. She said "I thought you were phoning to validate me, not lecture me." Then she started shouting at me, and I said "I'll not be spoken to that way, I'll call back later when things have calmed down. I phoned back 90 minutes later and no answer. So it's silent treatment now.

I'm feeling that pitt in my stomach, like I need to make it better somehow, but writing this is helping me blow it off as her feelings not mine.

OK formflier, it's an opportunity to try and validate my way through this one

I just sent an sms doing a bit of SE. " It must be very difficult to handle the girls on your own, Thinking of you. Warm Hugs"

Thoughts, advice?

[Moselle]

  Hah! It worked

Her reply " Thank you. Mmm that feels good. Thank you for protecting me with your strong arms. I've always loved your strength"

[waverider]

 

A strong consistent stance is a wonderful tool we often underestimate.

[joshbjoshb]

But let me understand: why do you have to be the one calling, then calling again, then sending a text. To me it's not validating but it's a lack of boundary. She can do whatever she wants, you will continue to chase her and make her feel good.

Let her call you.

No?

[waverider]

But let me understand: why do you have to be the one calling, then calling again, then sending a text. To me it's not validating but it's a lack of boundary. She can do whatever she wants, you will continue to chase her and make her feel good.

Let her call you.

No?

I think the boundary Moselle is working on here is not set at calling her, as that doesn't seem to bother him. It is about not continuing disrespectful interactions, which does bother him. In this case he will call her as long as she is respectful. If she is not he ends the call. Am I reading that right Moselle?

My boundary would be not having to call, but that is me as that would bug me, but everyone's boundary needs to be set at what bugs them, and that varies. As long as you know your boundary and are consistent with it you will feel empowered.

[workinprogress]

 

  She is receptive when she wants to be, for whatever reason.

What do you think the reason is?

When it works for her image.

When she was hanging around her BPD friends, they all treated their husbands badly, so my wife treated me badly.  When it became common knowledge that her friends were all cheating on their husbands, my wife suddenly turned into the most devoted wife in the world.  That was because it was out that her friends were doing what they were doing, and she didn't want her image tarnished.

I really suspect that she was cheating at the time, then stopped when everything was getting exposed.

Other times she became good to me was when I got a better job than the one I had.

She would suddenly be nice to me whenever her latest friend and her had a falling out.

Also, I noticed she becoming much nicer to me a couple of months before my annual bonus comes out.

Lastly, if we are going together as a couple to an event of some kind, she will be very nice.  Then, after the event she becomes cold again.

I think that I am getting her patterns figured out.

For years I clung to these positive changes with all my heart.  Only to have my heart busted again.  I'm much wiser now.

Hi WIP,

I can definitely empathise with that. It may appear that it's all about their image to us, because we feel the pressure to maintain that image. I call it the facade. One for church, one for being with the friends, one for work colleagues, and I'm sure you know the one for home LOL.

But as I research I begin to see a person, who because of abandonment issues from either a neglectful or an abusive parent, is desperately mirroring the people around her, because that's what she does to feel like a real person. Because deep down she feels that she is nothing, literally nothing. If she can keep up the mirrors, and reflect what people around her expect, maybe she can be accepted, just maybe, and if the people around her accept her, just maybe she isn't nothing, she has value.

And then I begin to feel some compassion, not alot mind you, but a bit, and there's alot of anger towards those neglectful parents, or abusive ones as the case may be. But then again, perhaps they were abused/neglected and developed mirrors themselves.

Not my problem right? I'm afraid it is now

I definitely think her parents have a lot of blame in this, not that I'm looking to point the finger.  I still see them hovering around in her life trying to control her. 

I was offered a promotion a few years ago that would have totally changed the rest of our lives for the better.  The sky was the limit with the possibilities.  We just had to move to a city that was 2 1/2 hours away.  She refused to move and I think her parents had a lot to do with it.

[joshbjoshb]

But let me understand: why do you have to be the one calling, then calling again, then sending a text. To me it's not validating but it's a lack of boundary. She can do whatever she wants, you will continue to chase her and make her feel good.

Let her call you.

No?

I think the boundary Moselle is working on here is not set at calling her, as that doesn't seem to bother him. It is about not continuing disrespectful interactions, which does bother him. In this case he will call her as long as she is respectful. If she is not he ends the call. Am I reading that right Moselle?

My boundary would be not having to call, but that is me as that would bug me, but everyone's boundary needs to be set at what bugs them, and that varies. As long as you know your boundary and are consistent with it you will feel empowered.

What you write is very interesting. My question is will not setting a boundary now will come to bite you later, but than you are right - what is considered biting is what we decide it is.

Thank you for your helpful comment, as always.

[Moselle]

It is about not continuing disrespectful interactions, which does bother him. In this case he will call her as long as she is respectful. If she is not he ends the call. Am I reading that right Moselle?

Spot on! 5 months ago I had no explicit boundaries with her whatsoever. And when I read in the lessons how to set boundaries, there was a lot of advice about how everyone has different boundaries and that they should reflect our values. To be honest I'm still working all of that out. I needed some boundaries urgently so I went to the "UN declaration of human rights", and borrowed theirs, adjusting them a bit for my personal situation.

The one I'm defending here is the third one "Right to be treated kindly and with respect"

Right to dignity

Right to truth

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy

Right to leave if persecuted

The right to freedom of expression and opinion

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Justice and fairness

The right to uninterrupted rest and leisure

Security of personal effects

Self determination and autonomy

Right to peace

Right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

I'm sure this varies significantly from the traditional Boundaries 101, because I went from a relationship with no boundaries whatsoever, to one with 14. I'd hardly recommend this as a way to soothe a pwBPD, she hated it. But I figured why add these one at a time, lets make a step change, so I tried it and while she has called it "fairly talk" and "UN (expletive)" at first, I stuck to it, and she respects them now for the most part.

I am adding higher concepts like nurturing and reciprocation now, but I am  so glad I took that step 5 months ago.

[formflier]

  but I am  so glad I took that step 5 months ago.

Might be more appropriate for a new thread... .but I'd challenge you to do some deep thinking about where you were and where you are now... .hit the big highlights and turning points.

I think that could be inspirational for many on this board.

Keep up the good work... .

[Moselle]

  but I am  so glad I took that step 5 months ago.

Might be more appropriate for a new thread... .but I'd challenge you to do some deep thinking about where you were and where you are now... .hit the big highlights and turning points.

I think that could be inspirational for many on this board.

Keep up the good work... .

I'll do that. Thank you.

[Turkish]

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