How to PROTECT our kids

[Robins0n]

Hi All,

Now that I seem to have a pretty good handle on my wife's anger episodes, I notice that our daughter (3 years old) starts to trigger, with her completely normal toddler behavior, the same bullsh1t that was exclusively directed at me in the past (threats, guilt, rage).

It's heartbreaking. She already treats us noticeably different. She listens to me better, shows me more respect and seems generally happier with me. My wife's frequent anger outbursts, breakdowns etc. probably left enough of an impression on our daughter to affect her behavior towards her mother. In my wife's mind of course, it's all my and our daughter's fault. Never hers of course. 

And that's exactly my problem right now. I cannot teach my daughter how to properly respond to her mother's mental illness. She cannot nor should she be able to comprehend that yet. When she finally can later in life, it'll most likely be too late - the damage to her soul will have been done.

I'm able to 'calm my wife down', when we talk about it alone after an altercation between her and our daughter but how do I intervene properly in the midst of it meeting my 2 objectives:

- Not making it worse (i.e. stepping on my wife's toes/triggering her myself on top of our daughter triggering her)

- Protecting my daughter (e.g. from developing unhealthy coping mechanisms for her mother's BPD behavior)

This illness is the gift that keeps on giving. Seriously. 

How do you guys protect your kids? Any advice? 

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[takingandsending]

Hi Robins0n.

I have stood in your shoes, and in some ways still am there. My uBPDw and I have two children, S8 and S3. S8 has, from the day after birth, been set up as the competing interest for my attention by my wife. Of all the effects of BPD in my life, this has been the worst.

But please don't wait, like I did, until my son was 8 years old and I finally came out of the FOG enough to know that my responsibility was with my kids first and foremost. My T helped me to see that clearly. That's how confused I was. I questioned whether or not I should be protecting my children because it triggered my wife.

How to protect your daughter between two objectives? Be sympathetic to your wife - you love her. Validate that she is feeling angry, upset, betrayed. In my experience with my wife, truth is not likely to work here as she is basically acting out at the age of a two or three year old. Then, if the escalated emotions continue and you are hearing blaming, shaming, guilt, enraged or otherwise harmful expressions, remove your daughter and yourself from the crime scene. We are going outside. We are going to the park. Let your wife know you will be back. Don't place a condition (judgment) on coming back, like "when you calm down".

Your first responsibility is to your daughter, and I am so happy that you know that. If that is your core belief, do everything you can to recollect that in the turmoil and be true to it. Now, for the good news. My T told me that she learned in a recent workshop/lecture that she attended that even if only one parent in a household provides the love, support and connection for the children, and one parent is unable, incapable of doing so, even then, studies have found that the child emerges with the tools they need for healthy communication. I reflect on that often when sh!t goes down at my house, and I take solace in it. I am determined that I will be there for my kids, no matter what.

It sounds like you are doing awesome work with your wife, and no, your daughter is not responsible to help your wife regulate her emotions.   Keep up the good work, and just really know that it's okay to be there for your daughter first. If your wife were able to, she would know that too.

[ydrys017]

I too have a similar situation in that S13 clearly recognizes the lack of logic and reason from uBPDw, and let's her know it as he's walking away from her.  If I appear to side with him in any way, it goes downhill in a hurry.  My D9 simply reacts, (she is showing signs of BPD... .), which simply escalates out of control.  Many times the tension is simply because uBPDw has demanded something irrational or expects immediate participation from the kids.

My advice, always - always stand in front of the kids.  My new priorities are to 1 - take care of myself, 2 - buffer my kids while showering them with love and attention, and 3 - determine what to do with uBPDw at any given moment.  My kids also listen & respect me more, and it's not surprising - I don't bombard them with tension and anxiety, and I allow them to be 'kids'.  They know where the boundaries are, and they push them - but I expect them too! 

[formflier]

 

One comment on the parenting thing.

kids need to be taught that just because one party does something wrong... .doesn't make it ok for them to do things wrong.

Yes... .it complicates things when one party is a parent... .but an unreasonable parent does not make it ok for a kid to react... .mouth off... .etc etc.

So... .I see big benefits to training kids to act and react better... without having to get into the details of what's wrong with mommy or daddy.

Not saying never get into the details... .just that the two don't have to be tied together.

At least that is my two cents worth... .

Thoughts?

[takingandsending]

formflier, not sure I fully agree with that.

kids need to be taught that just because one party does something wrong... .doesn't make it ok for them to do things wrong.

Yes... .it complicates things when one party is a parent... .but an unreasonable parent does not make it ok for a kid to react... .mouth off... .etc etc.

I went down that road a lot of years with my S8, tried to teach him a better way to communicate, tell mom what he wants, what he's feeling v. tantrum, reaction, etc. And I hate to say it, but I think I have been sending him the message that what he feels is not okay and is wrong. I haven't even intended to say that to him. But that's the narrative that he has filled in based on the scenarios he has been faced with and my reaction to his behavior/words/actions, and of course my wife's reactions to his behavior/words/actions.

Robins0n's daughter is 3. It's an age appropriate time for her to have a tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants, to not express her feelings but to act them out. Trying to alter that has only made my son's outbursts from 3 years old to now 8 years old worse. And he is really struggling to develop the language to express what he feels and needs, showing many BPD traits himself (which scares the heck out of me).

I wish I had shown my son, from that earliest attachment age on, that I had his back, that whatever he was feeling was okay, even if his behaviors were not. After all, that's exactly what my wife wants from all of us. As he grows older, I now use SET and validation tools with him, and to his credit, they seem to work better with him than they do with my wife.

I agree though, that it is absolutely unhelpful when I make my wife wrong, whether or not he behaves well, indifferently or poorly. I try to dance the fine line of letting him know that he is not at fault for someone else's feelings; he is responsible for his own feelings. And that's a hard enough task to manage.

[vortex of confusion]

My kids are old enough that there have been times when I have corrected them or called them out on their behavior and they will straight up say, "But dad does it all the time."

To take the focus off of dad, I try to say, "I know dad does it. That doesn't make it right. He shouldn't do it either. Actually that is something that ALL of us need to work on, me included." I know that I can always try to do better at reacting in the moment. I am not perfect so I try to use that as a spring board to highlight things that we can all work on. I don't want anybody singling anybody out. I try to tell the kids that it is okay to feel whatever you are feeling but it isn't okay to be a jerk about it.

When my girls were younger, I made the mistake of invalidating their feelings towards their father. I would try to talk to other people and would get stuff like, "He is just grumpy. Deal with it." That never set well with me but I turned around and did the same thing to my kids. When I started validating their concerns and intervening whenever possible, the kids seemed to handle things even better. And, we have all tried to do a better job of validating each other. It helps my husband a lot when one of the kids will crawl up in his lap and say, "I love you dad."

[formflier]

 

Another way of saying it... .your feelings are... .there is no debate there.  Invalidating a non or a pwBPD  is not a good way to go.

Actions are something that parents should actively try to help kids learn to control.

So... .I understand that you don't want to eat your xyz... .that is understandable.  We can talk more about that after you are finished eating it... .

Now... .understand where I'm coming from.  I have 8 kids.  Not much time for debate or drama.  And when the debate and drama tries to crop up... .we try to have fun with it to make a point.

So... .a child decides to buck up and not eat something.  I'll have fun with it and break out daddy's crystal ball.  All the older kids love this too.  We then take a poll at the table while looking into the crystal ball.  We go around the table and answer the question... .when you look into the crystal ball... .do you see "little Johnny" winning... .or does Daddy win?  After all the older kids answer up that Daddy wins... .I let "little Johnny" process this for a bit... .usually he gets to the right answer.

Sometimes that food shows up later... and later... .until it is consumed.

Sorry... .got off on a tangent there! 

[Robins0n]

Be sympathetic to your wife - you love her. Validate that she is feeling angry, upset, betrayed. In my experience with my wife, truth is not likely to work here as she is basically acting out at the age of a two or three year old. Then, if the escalated emotions continue and you are hearing blaming, shaming, guilt, enraged or otherwise harmful expressions, remove your daughter and yourself from the crime scene. We are going outside. We are going to the park. Let your wife know you will be back. Don't place a condition (judgment) on coming back, like "when you calm down".

Good advice. Thank you.

Now, for the good news. My T told me that she learned in a recent workshop/lecture that she attended that even if only one parent in a household provides the love, support and connection for the children, and one parent is unable, incapable of doing so, even then, studies have found that the child emerges with the tools they need for healthy communication. I reflect on that often when sh!t goes down at my house, and I take solace in it. I am determined that I will be there for my kids, no matter what.

Amen! Thanks for this. Hope is a powerful ally.

If I appear to side with him in any way, it goes downhill in a hurry.

That's it. I don't even think 'fine line' applies here as we're not really balancing between the 2 sides but rather simultaneously stand firmly with one foot on each side. We can't openly side, we must mediate while secretly siding with one side - like in a hostage situation. 

formflier, not sure I fully agree with that.

kids need to be taught that just because one party does something wrong... .doesn't make it ok for them to do things wrong.

Yes... .it complicates things when one party is a parent... .but an unreasonable parent does not make it ok for a kid to react... .mouth off... .etc etc.

I went down that road a lot of years with my S8, tried to teach him a better way to communicate, tell mom what he wants, what he's feeling v. tantrum, reaction, etc. And I hate to say it, but I think I have been sending him the message that what he feels is not okay and is wrong. I haven't even intended to say that to him. But that's the narrative that he has filled in based on the scenarios he has been faced with and my reaction to his behavior/words/actions, and of course my wife's reactions to his behavior/words/actions.

I'm torn. I understand formflier's perspective. If you're that busy, time is very limited and things just have to function. Because if they don't, the kids are too tired and/or late for school, the parents late for work, etc. - snowball effect.

On the other hand, I agree with takingandsending's point. I believe that it's important for the kids' emotional health to identify age appropriate behavior as such and 'let kids be kids' as much as possible.

A proper decision on that might be situation-specific. Basically, if you can 'afford' (e.g. weekend, vacation) to let them 'be kids', let them. If you can't (e.g. Monday morning), they have to function - no discussions.

To take the focus off of dad, I try to say, "I know dad does it. That doesn't make it right. He shouldn't do it either. Actually that is something that ALL of us need to work on, me included." I know that I can always try to do better at reacting in the moment. I am not perfect so I try to use that as a spring board to highlight things that we can all work on. I don't want anybody singling anybody out. I try to tell the kids that it is okay to feel whatever you are feeling but it isn't okay to be a jerk about it.

Excellent. Good advice. Thank you.

And when the debate and drama tries to crop up... .we try to have fun with it to make a point.

Gotta be honest, I'm not sure what to think of that yet. On one hand, I like the non-hostile environment that you're creating while keeping things running smoothly. On the other hand, I don't like the 'shame' aspect for 'little Johnny' but then, he might be too young to interpret it as such and might actually see it as a game - which was your intention.

You're dealing with 8 kids and BPD at home? Whatever you do, write a book about it one day, ok? 

[takingandsending]

Robins0n, thanks for your post. You are light years ahead of where I was when my eldest son was 3.    I let a lot of awful things be said to my s8 over the years because I was too afraid to anger my wife further. I knew it was wrong to stand by, but I was re-enacting the helplessness I felt as a child in my FOO. All I know is that 2 adults acting as children in conflict has not supported our children. It took me a long time to come out of the FOG enough to know and act as an adult parent. You are doing great work, and it means the world to your daughter. I hope your wife is able to make positive steps with her hardships and that the situation can improve for everyone. 

[formflier]

And when the debate and drama tries to crop up... .we try to have fun with it to make a point.

Gotta be honest, I'm not sure what to think of that yet. On one hand, I like the non-hostile environment that you're creating while keeping things running smoothly. On the other hand, I don't like the 'shame' aspect for 'little Johnny' but then, he might be too young to interpret it as such and might actually see it as a game - which was your intention.

You're dealing with 8 kids and BPD at home? Whatever you do, write a book about it one day, ok? 

Yeah... .trying to make it a  game... .and we try to constantly "build kids up" when they show the right behavior.  No effort to "tear down" with wrong behavior... .but they get the big emotional goodies when they do right.

There is always the look to see if the kid is really tired, sick hungry... .sometimes you need to just throw in the towel and send them to bed... .get them what they need... .or sometimes just hold them and tell them you love them... .it will be fine.

Hmm... .no intention for "shame"... .and maybe a bit of a game... .more like help them identify silly behavior on their own... .and laugh at themselves.  That is huge to build into kids.  HUGE.  Realize a  mistake... .don't dwell on it and move along.

Letting kids be kids.  Hmmm... .  The point of being a kid is to grow into a healthy adult.  Yes... along the way you should have fun and "be a kid"... .but most families get off track when they focus to much on being a kid and not enough on growing into an adult.  That is how you end up with guys in their 20s that act like they may be 13 years old... .(anyone think I have an opinion on that... .?)   

Another adage that I use about "letting" kids do things is that kids are ready to make decisions when they can be mature and handle not being able to make a decision.  So... .once you are ok with putting on the clothes that you are told to wear... .and you have proved that over time... .then you may start making choices about which clothes to pick out.

There is a theory of parenting that says always give kids choices... .do you want to eat this or that... .do you want to brush your teeth first or take a bath... .red shirt or blue shirt... .

What happens when you raise a kid this way and then say "don't run in the road... ."  because you see a car coming...

They keep walking... .while waiting for the other choice to be given... .

I think I just hijacked someones thread.   

Yeah... .8 kids and some BPD traits.  I wrestle with PTSD (service connected stuff)... .

Life is interesting... .

Can you tell I like to talk about child raising?

[Robins0n]

Robins0n, thanks for your post. You are light years ahead of where I was when my eldest son was 3.    I let a lot of awful things be said to my s8 over the years because I was too afraid to anger my wife further. I knew it was wrong to stand by, but I was re-enacting the helplessness I felt as a child in my FOO. All I know is that 2 adults acting as children in conflict has not supported our children. It took me a long time to come out of the FOG enough to know and act as an adult parent. You are doing great work, and it means the world to your daughter. I hope your wife is able to make positive steps with her hardships and that the situation can improve for everyone. 

Thanks for your kind words.

I wouldn't call what you did 'wrong', neither would I say that you 'stood by'. It sounds to me that were trying to meet one of the 2 objectives: not making it worse (i.e. not further deteriorating your wife's emotional state), which in itself partially meets the other objective: protecting the kid. If you believe you let your son down by trying to stop your wife's rage, you're not giving yourself the credit you deserve my friend.

Yeah... .trying to make it a  game... .and we try to constantly "build kids up" when they show the right behavior.  No effort to "tear down" with wrong behavior... .but they get the big emotional goodies when they do right.

There is always the look to see if the kid is really tired, sick hungry... .sometimes you need to just throw in the towel and send them to bed... .get them what they need... .or sometimes just hold them and tell them you love them... .it will be fine.

Nice!

Yeah... .8 kids and some BPD traits.  I wrestle with PTSD (service connected stuff)... .

Impressive and humbling beyond words.

Letting kids be kids.  Hmmm... .  The point of being a kid is to grow into a healthy adult.  Yes... along the way you should have fun and "be a kid"... .but most families get off track when they focus to much on being a kid and not enough on growing into an adult.  That is how you end up with guys in their 20s that act like they may be 13 years old... .(anyone think I have an opinion on that... .?)   

Another adage that I use about "letting" kids do things is that kids are ready to make decisions when they can be mature and handle not being able to make a decision.  So... .once you are ok with putting on the clothes that you are told to wear... .and you have proved that over time... .then you may start making choices about which clothes to pick out.

There is a theory of parenting that says always give kids choices... .do you want to eat this or that... .do you want to brush your teeth first or take a bath... .red shirt or blue shirt... .

What happens when you raise a kid this way and then say "don't run in the road... ."  because you see a car coming...

They keep walking... .while waiting for the other choice to be given... .

Your parenting technique is an interesting read and you make some good points; however, I wasn't trying to initiate a parenting discussion. We'll do that some other time. I have a feeling, you know a thing or two about that.

I'm trying to find out how to improve the situation when children trigger BPD behavior in the other parent - Protecting the kids without further deteriorating the emotional state of the BPD parent. Please keep sharing your experiences. Thank you!

[JohnLove]

And when the debate and drama tries to crop up... .we try to have fun with it to make a point.

I think I just hijacked someones thread.  

Yeah... .8 kids and some BPD traits.  I wrestle with PTSD (service connected stuff)... .

Life is interesting... .

Can you tell I like to talk about child raising?

No I believe you are still on topic formflier.  

If you like to talk about child raising it may be because you seem fairly proud and I am picking up your sense of accomplishment amongst the challenges you must be facing.

... .and I for one like to read your posts, they are full of sensible, insightful, practical, intelligent, child focusing, loving advice.

Keep up the great work. Please post more.  

[formflier]

No I believe you are still on topic formflier.  

If you like to talk about child raising it may be because you seem fairly proud and I am picking up your sense of accomplishment amongst the challenges you must be facing.

... .and I for one like to read your posts, they are full of sensible, insightful, practical, intelligent, child focusing, loving advice.

Keep up the great work. Please post more.  

Thanks... .I appreciate the kind words

In the military I was used to training large groups of people to accomplish things.  Did well at that... .and really enjoyed mentoring people... .watching them excel.

So... .with a large family... .there are some similarities.  Biggest difference there is that sometimes you need to ease up on the accomplishing and just focus on loving them... .letting them know that you think they are the best thing ever.

I tend to be a pretty analytical guy.  I used to write things out on the computer as a way of helping me sharpen my thoughts. 

Transitioning that to this on line board was pretty easy for me.

I'll be back and write more later.

[waverider]

Two common mistakes are firstly making excuses for your partners behavior (JADEing on their behalf) and hence invalidating the kids, in an attempted to avoid escalating. Secondly  staying out of the way fearing that anything you may say or do is going to make it worse.

You do have to put yourself in the line of fire, at the same time trying to not get overly involved in finger pointing, rather separating where necessary.

I went through this horror before I found out about BPD, its all sweet now though. There is still residual resentment from the kids though just beneath the surface (she is not their mother so that doesn't help). It still makes me feel like it was my one failure in parenting.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .and failures in parenting happen.  I've certainly had them. 

A big part of "training" kids to be adults is to have an intimate view of adults and adult r/s that have problems (failures) and then get put back on the right track again.  That's just life... .

So... .what that looks like for me is acknowledgment of wrong doing... .asking kids for forgiveness... .and then moving on.  Don't dwell on things.

Some families try to project an image of perfect parents... .perfect marriages... .on their "perfect" kids.  That's an impossible standard to live up to... .and I would imagine a stressful one for kids to try to achieve.

Last addition to the role of the "non" in a family where there are BPD traits.

Think of your kids as a glass of water... .with the water in the glass being the love that they need to feel emotionally healthy.  The world is going to knock into that glass and spill some water out.  Unfortunately... .pwBPD tend to knock more water out of that glass.

So... .look at yourself as the one responsible to keep filling up their glass with love. 

[Robins0n]

I tend to be a pretty analytical guy.  I used to write things out on the computer as a way of helping me sharpen my thoughts. 

Guilty as charged. Great tool to stay focused and speed up the process of identifying and weighing options for a problem at hand.

Two common mistakes are firstly making excuses for your partners behavior (JADEing on their behalf) and hence invalidating the kids, in an attempted to avoid escalating. Secondly  staying out of the way fearing that anything you may say or do is going to make it worse.

You do have to put yourself in the line of fire, at the same time trying to not get overly involved in finger pointing, rather separating where necessary.

That's it. Good intentions but doing all the wrong things. Recently I tried this: wife lost her temper at our D3 for refusing to get dressed. I entered the room and said calmly "Mommy's upset because you're not putting your clothes on. If you don't put your clothes on, we won't have time to eat breakfast together. But it's not ok for Mommy to yell at you like this because that hurts your feelings, right?". Btw, I never moved my eyes off my daughter during this (as opposed to looking at my wife when I said it's not ok to yell like this. Daughter said "Yes" and started sobbing. Then I gave her a hug and my wife actually joined in and apologized (and not once got defensive about her yelling). This one went well.

Some families try to project an image of perfect parents... .perfect marriages... .on their "perfect" kids.  That's an impossible standard to live up to... .and I would imagine a stressful one for kids to try to achieve.

Good one. I believe it's impossible to be a perfect parent in a perfect marriage for many of us - if you define 'perfect' as having no flaws. My own 'perfect' includes the prevention of domestic abuse at all cost. My 'perfect child' will have average grades in school but never doubt their abilities, will get their heart broken but never doubt their self worth and will leave the nest with excitement not relief.

Think of your kids as a glass of water... .with the water in the glass being the love that they need to feel emotionally healthy.  The world is going to knock into that glass and spill some water out.  Unfortunately... .pwBPD tend to knock more water out of that glass.

So... .look at yourself as the one responsible to keep filling up their glass with love. 

Beautiful analogy formflier. Your kids are lucky to have you.

I myself compare kids to trees. Trees can survive an ice storm, once they pass a certain height, but when they're little, you've got to protect the bark - or at the very least not take a chip at it yourself - to not impact its growth.

Don't get me wrong, I know a tree also needs storms and droughts to help develop strong roots but right now (D3, S1), protecting my kids' basic sense of trust is my priority #1.

[takingandsending]

Thanks, waverider. That's exactly what I was trying to say to Robins0n and any others parenting with their BPD SO. It's easy to fall into the trap of JADEing to your child for your SO or letting the child and parent with BPD hash it out. But neither strategy works for anyone involved, and especially not for the child. As the nonBPD parent, you have to step in on behalf of the child (and the BPD) and separate if needed or repair (for the child) when needed.

I am not aiming for perfection here. I am aiming for good health for my children. That is my contract when I chose to be their parent.

Robins0n, I am glad that you were able to step in for your daughter during a power struggle. I have used that same approach and absolutely had my wife come unglued over being criticized in front of the children, being undermined, etc. I have often chosen to use those words with my kids in the aftermath. My current approach is to validate my wife's upset and then place myself between her and the kids if she continues to escalate. I take the kids out of earshot, let her know I will return to talk to her after I get them through their conflict, i.e. getting dressed, brushing teeth, eating food, etc. I let my kids know what they are responsible for ... .their feelings and actions, and what they are not ... .her blame and shame and criticism. I have also found that, like most things in life, you have to choose which battles are necessary to step in and which ones are just skirmishes. There is no way to protect your child from all negative interaction with her mom, but as she gets older, by example, you can supply her with the tools to relate as positively as possible to her mom. That's my objective right now with my boys.

[Robins0n]

I am not aiming for perfection here. I am aiming for good health for my children. That is my contract when I chose to be their parent.

I really like how you phrased that!

I have used that same approach and absolutely had my wife come unglued over being criticized in front of the children, being undermined, etc.

Yes, I have to admit that I was surprised at her positive reaction too. Most other times it went just like you described. Frankly, sometimes I just want to believe that things can change on her side as much as they have on mine. Of course that is highly unlikely with BPD.

I have often chosen to use those words with my kids in the aftermath. My current approach is to validate my wife's upset and then place myself between her and the kids if she continues to escalate. I take the kids out of earshot, let her know I will return to talk to her after I get them through their conflict, i.e. getting dressed, brushing teeth, eating food, etc. I let my kids know what they are responsible for ... .their feelings and actions, and what they are not ... .her blame and shame and criticism. I have also found that, like most things in life, you have to choose which battles are necessary to step in and which ones are just skirmishes. There is no way to protect your child from all negative interaction with her mom, but as she gets older, by example, you can supply her with the tools to relate as positively as possible to her mom. That's my objective right now with my boys.

It's very helpful to also have the tools for a worst case scenario not just for the easy ones. Thanks for sharing your technique.

You're making a good point about the 'skirmishes'. It's an impossible task to shield the kids from all BPD behavior. I have to come to terms with that. It's necessary to have realistic goals. I appreciate the reminder.

[KateCat]

Recently I tried this: wife lost her temper at our D3 for refusing to get dressed. I entered the room and said calmly "Mommy's upset because you're not putting your clothes on. If you don't put your clothes on, we won't have time to eat breakfast together. But it's not ok for Mommy to yell at you like this because that hurts your feelings, right?". Btw, I never moved my eyes off my daughter during this (as opposed to looking at my wife when I said it's not ok to yell like this. Daughter said "Yes" and started sobbing. Then I gave her a hug and my wife actually joined in and apologized (and not once got defensive about her yelling). This one went well.

Robins0n, my goodness, I am full of admiration for your courage! I wonder if this one incident did not make a significant difference to the overall well-being of your daughter. I think it genuinely possible.

[waverider]

Some families try to project an image of perfect parents... .perfect marriages... .on their "perfect" kids.  That's an impossible standard to live up to... .and I would imagine a stressful one for kids to try to achieve.

This in itself is a breeding ground for dysfunctionality. It teaches them the game of charades and that openness is a weakness. My partners FOO is a perfect example of this.

[Robins0n]

Robins0n, my goodness, I am full of admiration for your courage! I wonder if this one incident did not make a significant difference to the overall well-being of your daughter. I think it genuinely possible.

Thanks for the encouragement KateCat. It felt good to 'win' one.

This in itself is a breeding ground for dysfunctionality. It teaches them the game of charades and that openness is a weakness. My partners FOO is a perfect example of this.

Same here waverider. Unfortunately, both our FOOs preached this bullsh1t to us as kids. It took me a long time to understand just how damaging it is what you and formflier are describing. Best example is our struggle with my wife's BPD. As soon as I opened up about it to other people (professionals, friends, family) after years of charades, things improved SIGNIFICANTLY.

In my opinion, charades and keeping-your-problems-to-yourself is the curse of anyone who's own emotional wounds are mighty enough to suffocate the hope for a better life; and this curse is handed down from one generation to the next until something tilts the scale towards hope.

[formflier]

  and this curse is handed down from one generation to the next until something tilts the scale towards hope.

Well said.

I think it would be interesting for each of us to think about what our "something" is... .and post about it.

I can think of several things for me... .but not sure what "the one" thing is.  Maybe there is not "one thing".

Certainly I knew that going to DSS (Department of Social Services) would change my life, my marriage, and my kids... .forever.  And I was fine with that. 

Is that hitting "rock bottom"... .not sure.

I was prepared to make that decision (while hoping I would never have to)... .after several months of being on this site and cramming my head full of knowledge.  Also did some work with my individual T about what I was ok with... .and not ok with.  So... .when time came to act... .I really didn't hesitate.

Since then... .I've also more fully dealt with PTSD (another story for another post)... .and that has made me question my perceptions.  (maybe even yet another post).

Still I don't want to go back to the "life before"... .I want a healthy r/s with my wife and family.  I'm willing to do a lot of hard... uncomfortable work to get to that.  Others in my family are doing the same thing.  I'm encouraged.


Thoughts?

[takingandsending]

Sorry to back track to this thread,  . A case in point about not always being able to manage SO w PBD interacting with children. I was off to work this morning when uBPDw could not get S3 to get dressed this morning. She said his upset went on for over an hour, but I know that her sense of time is very questionable when she disregulates (things she doesn't go on forever and things she wants like comfort are reduced to mere seconds). She said she laid on the kitchen floor crying because she was overwhelmed and pushed the refrigerator with her feet. The water provisions laid in for an ice maker (which our freezer doesn't have) broke and water began pooling in the kitchen. She called in a panic. I must admit, as we didn't have an ice maker, I forgot about the water line provision. As I tried to help her troubleshoot and find numbers to call, she continually stopped me to let me know she was overwhelmed and just give her one number to work with. I advised to turn power to fridge off and turn off water main to house. I work an hour away from the house, said I'd leave and come right home. Got upbraided for being reactive, and she said why come home since I couldn't get there in time. She hung up on me as a call was incoming from a handyman. I stayed at my desk and worked for the next 40 minutes. She rang my desk phone and raged that I had missed her cell phone calls (I did leave it in silence from a movie we had seen two night ago - oops!), raged that I hadn't left work yet, raged that I only gave her one phone number (because she couldn't take more in), etc. I leave work. I arrive as plumber is leaving and my brother in law has finished with shop vac. She tells me how during the crisis, she let S3 know that his tantrum has consequences, let S8 know when he gets angry that it can cause problems. Never once owned her kicking the refrigerator, or as S3 later told me, she "stomped it." Her upset should be good for 2-3 days worth of unpleasant times for my house. I have not JADEd, I have made several attempts at validation. I am the convenient bad guy because the shame/anger/embarrassment that she feels is too uncomfortable - best to dump it on me or the kids. 

It's going to happen, whether or not I am around. It convinces me that the best path is to work with the boys, give them what tools I can learn, let them see how I remain at least calm and non-confrontational around the upset, refrain from blaming, refrain from JADEing and make some attempt at validation. She isn't screaming. Mostly crying and blaming me for my insensitivity, and blaming the kids for upsetting her. That's our story.

[formflier]

Sorry to back track to this thread,  . A case in point about not always being able to manage SO w PBD interacting with children. I was off to work this morning when uBPDw could not get S3 to get dressed this morning. She said his upset went on for over an hour, but I know that her sense of time is very questionable when she disregulates (things she doesn't go on forever and things she wants like comfort are reduced to mere seconds). She said she laid on the kitchen floor crying because she was overwhelmed and pushed the refrigerator with her feet. The water provisions laid in for an ice maker (which our freezer doesn't have) broke and water began pooling in the kitchen. She called in a panic. I must admit, as we didn't have an ice maker, I forgot about the water line provision. As I tried to help her troubleshoot and find numbers to call, she continually stopped me to let me know she was overwhelmed and just give her one number to work with. I advised to turn power to fridge off and turn off water main to house. I work an hour away from the house, said I'd leave and come right home. Got upbraided for being reactive, and she said why come home since I couldn't get there in time. She hung up on me as a call was incoming from a handyman. I stayed at my desk and worked for the next 40 minutes. She rang my desk phone and raged that I had missed her cell phone calls (I did leave it in silence from a movie we had seen two night ago - oops!), raged that I hadn't left work yet, raged that I only gave her one phone number (because she couldn't take more in), etc. I leave work. I arrive as plumber is leaving and my brother in law has finished with shop vac. She tells me how during the crisis, she let S3 know that his tantrum has consequences, let S8 know when he gets angry that it can cause problems. Never once owned her kicking the refrigerator, or as S3 later told me, she "stomped it." Her upset should be good for 2-3 days worth of unpleasant times for my house. I have not JADEd, I have made several attempts at validation. I am the convenient bad guy because the shame/anger/embarrassment that she feels is too uncomfortable - best to dump it on me or the kids. 

It's going to happen, whether or not I am around. It convinces me that the best path is to work with the boys, give them what tools I can learn, let them see how I remain at least calm and non-confrontational around the upset, refrain from blaming, refrain from JADEing and make some attempt at validation. She isn't screaming. Mostly crying and blaming me for my insensitivity, and blaming the kids for upsetting her. That's our story.

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  Don't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

[waverider]

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  :)on't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

Good suggestion Formflier

I can verify this as a good approach, it works for me. It seperates the "cause issue" away from the "symptom issue". It validates her that you are acknowledging her frustration rather than allowing her to dwell on defense blame shifting. This in turn takes the pressure off you and any other handy scapegoats.

Its not easy to do, but when you get it right it really can be a turning point in being supportive and staying on the same team, rather than just being on the opposing side and putting on a tin hat to weather it.

[KateCat]

She tells me how during the crisis, she let S3 know that his tantrum has consequences, let S8 know when he gets angry that it can cause problems. Never once owned her kicking the refrigerator, or as S3 later told me, she "stomped it."

I might be reading too much into a single statement from your son (his mom "stomped" the refrigerator), but I think it may be a good sign that your boys do not take this incident as their fault.

When you have some serious time, I wonder if you could begin to read through the posts of board advisor "livednlearned." She's no longer married to her son's dad, but she's done a lot of excellent work in shepherding her son through several stages of an emotionally difficult early life experience with his dad. She has taken much guidance from professional psychologists, and her stated objective is to lessen her son's risk of susceptibility to substance abuse, depression, anger, anxiety, and all those other things kids with difficult parents can face. Hearing of her successes is pretty powerful, I think.

Even tougher stuff, though, for "staying" parents. Maybe you guys undertake something like a "bifurcated mission," as you concentrate on "feelings" when interacting with your wife and her perceptions, and "facts" when speaking privately with your sons about the same events.

Kids seem to need, primarily, to hear from the healthy parent (probably again and again) that they are not to blame and that they are o.k. This seems to involve a whole lot of listening to the kids. And validating their perceptions.

ETA: Excellent advice from formflier and waverider.

[Robins0n]

Sorry to back track to this thread,  . A case in point about not always being able to manage SO w PBD interacting with children. I was off to work this morning when... .

First of all, I'm sorry for the mess you were put in! I feel your pain. The hanging up and later complaining about missed calls   If my wife's deregulation causes a problem, she often won't acknowledge the deregulation either and instead mercilessly focus on the before and after. You're absolutely right, jadeing could very much be the least helpful approach.

I've learned the hard way that her hanging up on me for whatever reason does not necessarily mean she doesn't want to/can't talk to me anymore. For us, it means that she's not happy about the way we talk and it's up to me to start another attempt. Anyway, that's something for another thread.

Your story shows me once again that me trying to shield the kids from BPD-fueled deregulation is the wrong approach. I should focus on how to 'clean-up' after properly because it WILL happen.

- Stopping deregulation as soon as possible - validation, SET, etc.

- Expose the kids to healthier behavior in similar situations - e.g. when unsuccessfully trying to get them dressed myself.

- Preventing the creation of unhealthy coping mechanisms by helping the kids cope with their mother's behavior - no clear idea of how to accomplish that yet while wife is PRESENT although KateCat's way perfectly sums up what to do when the wife is NOT around - see below. Thoughts/personal experiences anyone for when pwBPD is present? Maybe I need to accept that there's nothing I can do for the kids directly while the pwBPD is in the middle of the deregulation aside from stopping the deregulation itself  :'(

I think it would be interesting for each of us to think about what our "something" is... .and post about it.

I can think of several things for me... .but not sure what "the one" thing is.  Maybe there is not "one thing".

Several things had to come together to tilt MY scale, that's for sure. I agree, it would be very interesting to share each other's motivators, for whichever side their scale tipped towards.

Still I don't want to go back to the "life before"... .I want a healthy r/s with my wife and family.  I'm willing to do a lot of hard... uncomfortable work to get to that.  Others in my family are doing the same thing.  I'm encouraged.

I can verify this as a good approach, it works for me. It seperates the "cause issue" away from the "symptom issue".

I agree, formflier's approach worked for me too in the past. Waverider, can you elaborate on the separation statement (cause/symptom)?

Even tougher stuff, though, for "staying" parents. Maybe you guys undertake something like a "bifurcated mission," as you concentrate on "feelings" when interacting with your wife and her perceptions, and "facts" when speaking privately with your sons about the same events.

Kids seem to need, primarily, to hear from the healthy parent (probably again and again) that they are not to blame and that they are o.k. This seems to involve a whole lot of listening to the kids. And validating their perceptions.

Very good points. 'Feelings' and 'Facts' working together on the same mission (emotionally healthy children) yet, like highly specialized doctors, dangerously useless when assigned the wrong body part. It makes a lot of sense to focus on reassuring the kids that they're not to blame and there's nothing 'wrong' with them. Thanks for this.

[KateCat]

Thoughts/personal experiences anyone for when pwBPD is present? Maybe I need to accept that there's nothing I can do for the kids directly while the pwBPD is in the middle of the deregulation aside from stopping the deregulation itself  :'(

I think the reason I keep reading the posts of parents on the "Staying" board is to see if anyone comes up with any best-practices solution to this dilemma. I've been thinking about it myself since I was a kid with a scary father way back in the Leave it to Beaver era. If anyone ever stood up directly to my father's "whatever it was" I have clearly blocked that from memory.

What I would have wished most for, though, was my mom stating really, really, really clearly in some delicate way at any time of her choosing that my father's behavior was not really o.k. I didn't get the message that other people--most other people--were quite aware that he had a mental illness of some sort until I was an adult. (Even his parents had awareness at some level, as his family nickname was apparently their language's word for a "wildcat."  )

[takingandsending]

I appreciate all of the good conversation, and it leaves me with a lot to think about. KateCat, I will look and read those posts. I have a nephew diagnosed as BPD and a niece diagnosed with ADHD/anxiety disorder (but very possibly BPD) that are both struggling with substance abuse, promiscuity, suicidal ideation, etc. I am concerned for my children.

Now for my horns, . While I appreciate and understand the dynamics that uBPDw needs her feelings validated in the midst of a crisis, it does little to actually resolve the crisis on hand. And there is a very strong unwillingness in me to validate her feelings when the house is on fire in order to get her to leave the house. I give her credit yesterday for getting the issue resolved. I had to remind myself of the codependency lessons - I have to let her experience the consequences of her actions. Could it have happened to me? Yes. Do I get angry or upset with the kids? Yes. But if I create a problem, I do my best to own it and fix it. Holding her hand so that she can deal with her feelings about the problem that arose from her actions of acting out on previous feelings so that she can address the problem in a constructive way is hard for me to cross that bridge. Is this related 100% to her? No. It is my past. It is my own shame for being weak as a child and helping my mom fix her feelings. I know that ("fixing her feelings" is not the advise being given, but in the end, I keep asking myself "What sort of relationship of peers will this (n)ever be?"

Perhaps healing my own shame in my past will allow for something better that I just can't see right now. That's where I am heading, at any rate, and I am still receptive to see what shows up when I feel less threatened by her helplessness. Ugh. This is a tough one for me.

[KateCat]

I have a nephew diagnosed as BPD and a niece diagnosed with ADHD/anxiety disorder (but very possibly BPD) that are both struggling with substance abuse, promiscuity, suicidal ideation, etc. I am concerned for my children.

The posts of livednlearned are straight up your alley, I promise you. When she left her husband (an individual clearly high-functioning in certain respects: a former trial attorney, now law school professor), her son was only about eight years old. He was also intermittently suicidal, and identified by his school as an "at risk" child.

Livednlearned's posts cover a portion of the period between that time and now, when he is thirteen and doing much better. They are an extraordinary journal of profound change for both mother and child (dad not so much, but you probably would have guessed that).  . . For similarly compelling tales of struggle from a father's perspective, the posts of Matt and ForeverDad cannot be beat.

ADDED: All three of these members are currently active forum participants, and continue to discuss cases with others and offer counsel. However, all are now separated from their children's other parent. (So I guess, once again, I draw a bit of a blank when thinking of a community member still living with the other parent and yet feeling a sense of mastery over issues of children's emotional development.)

[Robins0n]

What I would have wished most for, though, was my mom stating really, really, really clearly in some delicate way at any time of her choosing that my father's behavior was not really o.k.

What an eye opener and food for thought this sentence was for me   I too grew up with a scary father and was looking for what you're describing my whole childhood - wouldn't that be what my own children are looking for, too? Unbelievable how I couldn't see this.

Of course, this kind of support could very easily backfire, regardless of it having been provided in the presence of the other parent or not. The child could use this in their next battle with pwBPD directly and potentially worsen the deregulation ("It's not ok to ... .Mommy!". Hmm... .what's worse? Leaving the child to their own devices out of fear to equip him with tools he can't handle yet or send him into battle? Since leaving the child to their own devices is not an option for me, it must either be the ill-equipped battle or the 'delicate way', as KateCat called it, which I'm completely clueless about   Is there a way to convince your child that an action by the pwBPD isn't ok - as pragmatic as necessary (to convince the child) and delicate as possible (to not trigger the pwBPD)? If so, I certainly haven't found it yet.

... .but in the end, I keep asking myself "What sort of relationship of peers will this (n)ever be?"

Well said.

This exact thought burns me out too sometimes. I'm trying to accept the fact that in certain areas, the relationship I HAVE is not the relationship I WANT; however, in my case, the benefits of making it work outweigh the risks associated with ending it... .and sometimes, there's clear skies and sunshine to enjoy, too

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[KateCat]

this kind of support could very easily backfire, regardless of it having been provided in the presence of the other parent or not.

No kidding! I don't know how this can actually be done. It seems more possible to provide different narratives to kids when there are two separate households, and in that case kids figure out that parents do not always see eye-to-eye.

But kids who spend their entire childhoods in confusion of this sort do look for ways to blame themselves for their troubled families. Because my dad was an academic, I had somehow convinced myself that he was permanently "mad" because none of us kids got all A's on our report cards all the time. Given that my brother was taking calculus classes at the state U when he was in high school and that I went on to become Dr. KateCat myself, that seems a reach.  But it made sense to me.

I've seen a few older episodes of Dr. Phil wherein Phil plays a video of parental behavior that seems BPD. And then he says things like, "That's not OK." Or "This changes who a child is." But it's only TV and he's not really providing a fix or anything.

[KateCat]

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  Don't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

formflier, do you think this could be practiced in the presence of the kids? In a kind of two-birds-with-one-stone way? Such that the kids receive validation indirectly that they are not in fact to blame?

Hmm. Sounds to me potentially powerful.

[formflier]

This might work... .think long and hard before doing it... .

Got to be in a calm supportive mood.  Ask her what she was feeling when she "stomped" the fridge.  Don't focus much on the stomping... .but keep it in the conversation.  Keep most of the focus on her feelings.

Understand and validate those... .maybe at some point you can transition to how to help make those feelings better... .less intense.

Thoughts?

formflier, do you think this could be practiced in the presence of the kids? In a kind of two-birds-with-one-stone way? Such that the kids receive validation indirectly that they are not in fact to blame?

Hmm. Sounds to me potentially powerful.

Sure... .I think it could be tried either in their presence... or without it.

I think the key is that you don't want to start this when you know they are tetering on dysregulation... .

That being said... don't want until the "perfect day"... .it won't come.

[formflier]

 

Hey... .just wanted to provide my input on the proper "theory" or principle that we are all after.

Sometimes principles and "tactics" get mixed up. 

If you don't get the principle of the matter correct... .chances of getting the correct tactic are pretty low.

Here goes.

Best way to raise healthy happy well adjusted kids is to have to loving parents that openly show that love in front of the kids.  Loving and "perfect" are not the same... .focus on love... .stay away from perfection.

So... .if you have a limited amount of energy (and most of us do... pwBPD can sap that energy)... .it is usually best to focus that energy on improving the marriage r/s rather than the r/s with the children.

Yep... I said it... .focus on the marriage r/s... .let the child be secondary. 

Shocking?

I don't think so... .

Think about what naturally flows. 

If I said that a great parental r/s will "naturally" create a great marriage... .what would you guys say?

If I said that a great marriage will most likely produce happy well adjusted kids... .what would you guys say?

Obviously... .I think the second question/statement is true... .good marriages produce good children.


Does this mean we blindly keep pouring energy into a failing marital r/s... .nope. 

Livednlearned was mentioned earlier.  A powerful story of a Mom that decided to protect her child... .

That always has to be in our scan... .

Any thoughts?

[waverider]

Awareness of the big picture and the effectiveness of our actions is the key.

Kids are affected more by what happens routinely.

Kids are more affected by being brought up in an environment of a frozen facade of appropriateness, rather that one that contains open affections, and conversely at time disapproval.

Kids are testing boundaries and learning, that is their job. So coming up against rejection and going off in a sulk is part of normal development they dont need sugar coating all the time.

On going pointless conflict between the parents confuses them, especially if they get dragged into a bit of projection.

Of course we cant always have a perfect relationship with our partners, that is the burden of BPD. However we can be seen to do the appropriate and caring thing. That is the priority example to be set. If we are failing as long as we are showing intent, we are still setting a good example

With this principle in mind any boundaries we enact need to be seen to be fair and reasonable without spite.

I too have seen marriages where the parents are always publically appropriate, but without any warmth between them. No thrust and parry, this teaches kids to be afraid to be themselves and often define themselves by material possessions and status (outward image), rather than opening up their soul, even to themselves.

Working on a marriage does not mean keeping a stronger lock on the cupboard full of skeletons. It means letting them out and working on them.

[formflier]

Kids are testing boundaries and learning, that is their job. So coming up against rejection and going off in a sulk is part of normal development they dont need sugar coating all the time.

Huge point to consider.  Some parents seems shocked when kids test boundaries... .they exclaim... I thought we raised them better than this!  What they need to realize it that this is part of the raising... .no a result of the raising.

Working on a marriage does not mean keeping a stronger lock on the cupboard full of skeletons. It means letting them out and working on them.

Well said!

[KateCat]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

[formflier]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

 

Someone has been reading my posts... and picking up on my favorite lines... .

And now the force is being used against me... .

Yes... .the kids need protection... .but... .what is the best way to do that... .this is a "tactical" discussion.

Especially with people that are fairly early on in learning about how to deal with BPD... .and they are still figuring out how much "better" their r/s with a pwBPD can be.

So... .think of it like this. 

I have a limited amount of energy... .I can put that energy into protecting my kid... .and it works today... .and I'm out of energy.  So... .not much validation went towards the pwBPD... .so they don't get better... .and tomorrow.  The kid needs protecting again... .energy gets used up protecting the kid... .not much validation to pwBPD... .so pwBPD doesn't get better... .and the cycle keeps repeating.

Now... .what I wanted to point out is that long term (especially for stayers)... .it may be best to minimize energy going towards kids and maximize it going towards pwBPD... .especially if you are starting to see some impact of using tools and lesson. 

BECAUSE!  If this works out... .then there should be less dysregulation... .and less need to protect the kids... .and more energy to dump into the r/s... .which leads to less dysregulation... .which leaves more energy to do other things with.

Obviously there are some situations where kids need to be protected... .regardless of impact on the pwBPD... .

I was trying to make a general statement about where to focus limited effort... .

Understand better now?

[waverider]

formflier (who is certainly a hero parent along with livednlearned),

"Help me to understand." Because I think the gist of what you're saying on this thread is escaping me in a fundamental way. . . . Do you not think your kids need protection specifically from their mother's behaviors?

Protection, but not complete isolation from the fact that the behavior exists.

eg If a parent decends into a screaming banshie at times, that is who they are. You cannot hide this from the kids. You protect them from the effect and let them know you will keep them safe.

There is much value in teaching them ways so they see it as an"episode" if you like, and to not be afraid of that parent, to understand that the nonsense and threats that spew forth are not as deeply held as they may seem. Have their own "escape plan" if needed, much as we do.

Kids are quite capable of rationing that mum/dad is acting like a complete fruitcake at the moment, I will just go outside/to my room put my headphones on and avoid them until they "get over it'. Let the other parent deal with it.

They do that at the drop of a hat anyway. Sometimes I think they could teach us better coping skills. They are learning, we are not used to learning new things, hence we have trouble adapting.

If you as the non are trying to cover it up, put it back in the closet and pretend everything is fine this leaves the kids scared of the bogey in the closet. If you are acting scared for the kids they will believe there is something to be scared of

If your kids can do this they are not splitting your attention and you can then just focus on interacting with your partner, which also will not trigger your partner into the "taking sides' argument.

Being constantly in the middle, handicaps your efforts. So separate the the two parties and focus on the pwBPD.

[KateCat]

Hey, waverider, I didn't ask you! 

There is no doubt on God's green earth that you are out of the FOG.

[formflier]

Being constantly in the middle, handicaps your efforts. So separate the the two parties and focus on the pwBPD.

My hat's off on this one... .a much simpler way to put it. 

[KateCat]

formflier,

I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that you are not aware of the kids' needs. I genuinely look forward to hearing of your efforts and your learning curve as you return to the family home. (Or has that already happened?)

[formflier]

formflier,

I'm sorry if I seemed to suggest that you are not aware of the kids' needs. I genuinely look forward to hearing of your efforts and your learning curve as you return to the family home. (Or has that already happened?)

No worries... .ask away... .and I didn't think you were suggesting... .just clarifying.

I still don't sleep in the home... .but spend tons of time over there.  Lots of individual and group time with the kids.  Focused more on individual time... .so that each kid clearly understands they have a separate r/s with me.

Things keep moving towards reunification with my wife and I.  Most of focus has been on being effective parents and building a friendship... .or building it back. 

Very little focus on romance.  Cracked the ice on the romance over the weekend.  Got away for a couple days with her with no pretext other than to spend time alone and work on our r/s. 

I should probably create a new thread to update things... .but there has been no dramatic "one thing"... .just lots of small baby steps towards back together.

Honestly... I'm anxious to get going.  However... .me constantly pestering or badgering about it isn't going to help so I put my focus on other places... .

She, I and some of the kids are doing some individual work as well as family T work.  That is keeping us all pointed in same direction.

I still do MC with wife as well... .focused mostly on empathy and understanding each others emotions.

I'll have to get an update out soon... .

[KateCat]

Well, you are indeed a hero dad.

It's a great big thing for a healthy man in vigorous middle age who has a lot to enjoy in life . . . to put the brakes on all of that one fateful day and do what you have done for your family.

[formflier]

Well, you are indeed a hero dad.

It's a great big thing for a healthy man in vigorous middle age who has a lot to enjoy in life . . . to put the brakes on all of that one fateful day and do what you have done for your family.

Thanks... .and what a fateful day that was... .

I knew that my family would never again be the same... .and it hasn't... .that is a good thing.


For those that are thinking about protecting children or taking a big stand.  Sometimes that is needed to get things "unstuck" in a r/s.  One thing that is scary about getting unstuck... .is that nobody knows where this will end up.  There were times I figured we were getting divorced.  I was not for this... .but also realized that it was out of my control.  Currently my thinking is that we will get back together as a "normal" family unit.

I am for this... .but have to realize that ultimately this is also outside of my control.  I'll do my best... .and deal with what actually happens.

I  continue to sail into "uncharted waters" in my r/s with my wife and family... .

[ydrys017]

Yes... .the kids need protection... .but... .what is the best way to do that... .this is a "tactical" discussion.

Especially with people that are fairly early on in learning about how to deal with BPD... .and they are still figuring out how much "better" their r/s with a pwBPD can be.

So... .think of it like this. 

I have a limited amount of energy... .I can put that energy into protecting my kid... .and it works today... .and I'm out of energy.  So... .not much validation went towards the pwBPD... .so they don't get better... .and tomorrow.  The kid needs protecting again... .energy gets used up protecting the kid... .not much validation to pwBPD... .so pwBPD doesn't get better... .and the cycle keeps repeating.

Now... .what I wanted to point out is that long term (especially for stayers)... .it may be best to minimize energy going towards kids and maximize it going towards pwBPD... .especially if you are starting to see some impact of using tools and lesson. 

BECAUSE!  If this works out... .then there should be less dysregulation... .and less need to protect the kids... .and more energy to dump into the r/s... .which leads to less dysregulation... .which leaves more energy to do other things with.

Obviously there are some situations where kids need to be protected... .regardless of impact on the pwBPD... .

I was trying to make a general statement about where to focus limited effort... .

Understand better now?

Wow!  This is me  :'(  I've been focusing on the kids completely, house chores, my job, etc... .and am too exhausted to even communicate with uBPDw on anything but utilitarian topics.  I so don't want another dereg session, but it started this morning - it was due... .  So, now I'll be forced to deal with it tonight, most likely with kids present.  I've prepped myself today by watching the Dr Alan Fruzetti video on validating.

[Robins0n]

It seems more possible to provide different narratives to kids when there are two separate households, and in that case kids figure out that parents do not always see eye-to-eye.

I agree - but at what price? What about the initial separation where the kids have to deal with the fact that one parent is permanently moving out of their house, the potential divorce battle they might get sucked into, the potential lies told by the pwBPD about you - after all, separation is the ultimate rejection, the (unjustified) shame for having a broken home, etc. - in my opinion, separation is a very risky if not doomed investment, if your priority is the well being of your kids.

Before I get bashed, I'd like to add that, in my opinion, the lack of actively and consistently working on your marriage with a pwBPD and instead simply 'holding on' must be far worse than anything a separation can ever do to a child.

So... .if you have a limited amount of energy (and most of us do... pwBPD can sap that energy)... .it is usually best to focus that energy on improving the marriage r/s rather than the r/s with the children.

Yep... I said it... .focus on the marriage r/s... .let the child be secondary. 

Very interesting! This approach has certainly worked for us and I wasn't even aware of it until you put it into words. I wonder if this tactic is 'enough', once the kids are older and potentially become full-time triggers for dysregulation episodes themselves.

I so don't want another dereg session, but it started this morning - it was due... .  So, now I'll be forced to deal with it tonight, most likely with kids present.  I've prepped myself today by watching the Dr Alan Fruzetti video on validating.

What works for me is to remind myself right before I get home that while I'm not always entirely sure what to say during an episode, one thing is certain: being defensive WILL make it worse. Also, think about formflier's tactic (marriage 1st, children 2nd) - if he's right (which I believe he is), this should eliminate some of your anxiety associated with your kids being present tonight. Focus on improving and not worsening things with the wife tonight. Good luck! 

[ydrys017]

Waited until the kids were in bed, removed myself from the conversation 2x to take a walk - 2nd one was at midnight, and I know from experience that late night attempts at communication do not end well!  Her final response was that she wants a divorce    I've heard it enough times now that it doesn't sting as it used to, I simply tell her that she has that option and needs to live the outcome.  A few small fires since then, not a fun time... .

[formflier]

Waited until the kids were in bed, removed myself from the conversation 2x to take a walk - 2nd one was at midnight, and I know from experience that late night attempts at communication do not end well!  Her final response was that she wants a divorce    I've heard it enough times now that it doesn't sting as it used to, I simply tell her that she has that option and needs to live the outcome.  A few small fires since then, not a fun time... .

What do you say when she wants a divorce... .

My favorite... .is an even... .non-reactive... ."I'm sorry you feel that way... .".

Then move along to a totally different topic... .

Don't show shock... .don't show fear... .

[ydrys017]

I tell her that it is not what I want, and that is her decision.  Honestly, I'm not sure that she is able to actually make that decision, and I now refuse to live in fear of that threat... . 

[formflier]

I tell her that it is not what I want, and that is her decision.  Honestly, I'm not sure that she is able to actually make that decision, and I now refuse to live in fear of that threat... . 

You most likely invalidate her by saying that... .

If she feels you want a divorce... .and you say you don't... .invalidation.

Better to say "Sorry you feel that way... ." and move along... .don't pay the threat any more attention.