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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: The impossibility of co-parenting with a BPD  (Read 499 times)
Bellerphon

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« on: September 06, 2014, 03:26:36 PM »

I have been given primary custody of my children. We have tied to use a co-parenting coach, mediation by social services and a judge. Co-Parenting is an absolute failure and the impact on the children is remarked upon by the kids therapists.

I am seeking to have her parental right's terminated. It is drastic, but she has a history of drug and alcohol abuse, promiscuity, physical violence and suicidal ideation. I have exhausted all attempts at any form of joint parenting.

Just last week the youngest child's therapist is having to make a report of physical abuse. My ex-BPD wife is in a relationship again (guy #95 or 97 who knows - I was #94 by her count) and I am really frightened and concerned about my kids on there every other week visitation. Trust is completely gone after she and her lawyer ( bar complaint) lied to the Social services team about her living conditions, work ( she has an MBA), and the constant exposure of the kids to the "new joe" and his kids. My son came back with a questionable bruise and story.

sigh... .I am just vomiting on the board. Will it ever end. I wish there was an amicus cruiea brief on BPD that would make it easier to terminate.

B
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IceQueenSunday

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« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2014, 03:41:16 PM »

I'm just starting on this long road and my heart goes out to you. The idea of my ex fiancĂ© having unsupervised access to the kids fills me with dread tbh. He's not my sons biological father but has brought him up for 5 years so will have some rings? My son's 6, and our daughter is 15 months . I don't trust him one bit  

Hope things get easier soon  it must be awful  thinking of you x
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Matt
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« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2014, 09:50:02 PM »

Bellerphon,

I would suggest you talk with your attorney, and make sure you understand all the options.

Terminating a mother's parental rights is a huge step.  I'm not saying it's not the right step - it might be the best thing you can do.  But the courts are usually very, very reluctant to take this step.

There may be other options that will protect the kids.  For example, you might be able to file a motion for supervised visitation, so your ex can see the kids with a professional supervising, so they will be safe from physical harm and from any alienation.  The supervisor can report to the court if your ex's behavior is harmful to the kids.

If that still doesn't work, the visits can be less often, or even suspended or ended altogether.

I think if the only option you pursue is to terminate her parental rights, the court will probably give her one more chance, and then one more, and then one more... .
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2014, 07:13:00 AM »

Bellerphon,

I would suggest you talk with your attorney, and make sure you understand all the options.

Terminating a mother's parental rights is a huge step.  I'm not saying it's not the right step - it might be the best thing you can do.  But the courts are usually very, very reluctant to take this step.

There may be other options that will protect the kids.  For example, you might be able to file a motion for supervised visitation, so your ex can see the kids with a professional supervising, so they will be safe from physical harm and from any alienation.  The supervisor can report to the court if your ex's behavior is harmful to the kids.

If that still doesn't work, the visits can be less often, or even suspended or ended altogether.

I think if the only option you pursue is to terminate her parental rights, the court will probably give her one more chance, and then one more, and then one more... .

Matt,

You are spot on with what the courts will do. they have under DSS guidance and mentorship been doing exactly that. She continues to violate boundaries and disregard "strong guidance".

I asked that she go back to supervised visitation. They are considering  that as well as the other option. I have had enough, and have been thwarted by my xBPDw therapist who continues to deny her diagnosis even though we have the BPD diagnosis from a major respectable university medical center 2010 and a forensic psychologist 2013.

For me the long term risks combined with the short term damage already being done is enough.

As far as discussing this with a lawyer... .they cannot fully grasp the complexity and seriousness of a violent BPD. Also there is the gender issue being played out.

B


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Matt
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« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2014, 11:04:15 AM »

As far as discussing this with a lawyer... .they cannot fully grasp the complexity and seriousness of a violent BPD. Also there is the gender issue being played out.

Some attorneys have experience and understanding related to BPD and other psychological disorders, but many don't.  If you can find one who has some good experience, that is best.

All attorneys should know the process - how things work where you live, and what options you have.

In my limited experience, you can't assume that attorneys have good judgment or think strategically.  Best to ask a lot of questions and make sure you understand your options, and then choose the path that you believe will get you where you want to be.
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momtara
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« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 09:06:39 AM »

Ugh.  Sometimes I realize that maybe my situation is not so bad.  My uBPD exH has the kids unsupervised (small kids) every other weekend.  He is verbally abusive, but no drugs, etc., etc.  No wonder I can't get anyone to do anything - there are so many people out there with so much worse, and no one listens.  It's ridiculous.  These are small children.  The experts should be protecting them.  I understand that both parents have right, but come on.
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 09:14:56 AM »

Ugh.  Sometimes I realize that maybe my situation is not so bad.  My uBPD exH has the kids unsupervised (small kids) every other weekend.  He is verbally abusive, but no drugs, etc., etc.  No wonder I can't get anyone to do anything - there are so many people out there with so much worse, and no one listens.  It's ridiculous.  These are small children.  The experts should be protecting them.  I understand that both parents have right, but come on.

Exactly... .At time I feel as if the courts and team members lose sight of the fact that the kids are at risk... .
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MovingOnForLife

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« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2014, 03:00:07 PM »

I am going through this right now and just asked my lawyer why the courts don't consider psychological abuse to be as damaging as physical abuse and my lawyer told me that it's hard to prove.  Ummm no - one coversation with my daughter and you've got all the evidence you need.  These kids really are at risk and the courts don't care one bit even though they constantly tell me that all they care about is what's in the best interest of the kids. 
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2014, 03:46:07 PM »

I am going through this right now and just asked my lawyer why the courts don't consider psychological abuse to be as damaging as physical abuse and my lawyer told me that it's hard to prove.  Ummm no - one coversation with my daughter and you've got all the evidence you need.  These kids really are at risk and the courts don't care one bit even though they constantly tell me that all they care about is what's in the best interest of the kids. 

I have even the attachment therapy specialists saying she doing damage emotionally and psychologically, yet the Guardian ad Litem continues to insist on the antiquated dogma the kids need a relationship with their mother. I am just gobsmacked at the ignorance and foresight of the courts.

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Matt
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2014, 03:56:12 PM »

There may be a few ways to break this logjam - you have to really prove your case.

One is to prove that her behavior has hurt the kids psychologically.  This may be difficult, because you are both involved.  If the kids are doing OK, they can say, "So she must not be doing any damage." - even if they are doing OK because of your efforts.  And if the kids aren't doing OK, they can say, "Well both parents are involved so you are equally responsible."

But... .there is another approach.

First, get objective diagnoses for both parents.  Best to file a motion asking for objective psych evals for both parents, so you are seen as fair, and the idea can be to get all the relevant information in front of the court.  If you only want the other party to be evaluated, you're asking the court to assume that she is the one with problems.

Make sure the psych evals are objective - that is, based on an objective test like the MMPI-2.  Otherwise, if it's just interviews, it won't be conclusive.

Then, if the results show BPD or some other psych disorder, you can research to find the impact on the kids.  For example, there are studies showing that a child raised by someone with BPD is at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. than most kids.

Read "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson, and check out the footnotes - tons of published information.

But... .to get that kind of information in front of the court, you might have to hire an expert witness, who can testify about the subject and be cross-examined.

You're making a chain and it's only as good as its weakest link.  The links are:

* The other party has one or more serious psychological disorder.

* Kids who spend too much time with someone who has that disorder are at much higher risk over time.

* The only way to keep their risk low is to put them mostly in the care of a psychologically-healthy parent.

* You are their only psychologically-healthy parent.
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2014, 04:04:15 PM »

There may be a few ways to break this logjam - you have to really prove your case.

One is to prove that her behavior has hurt the kids psychologically.  This may be difficult, because you are both involved.  If the kids are doing OK, they can say, "So she must not be doing any damage." - even if they are doing OK because of your efforts.  And if the kids aren't doing OK, they can say, "Well both parents are involved so you are equally responsible."

But... .there is another approach.

First, get objective diagnoses for both parents.  Best to file a motion asking for objective psych evals for both parents, so you are seen as fair, and the idea can be to get all the relevant information in front of the court.  If you only want the other party to be evaluated, you're asking the court to assume that she is the one with problems.

Make sure the psych evals are objective - that is, based on an objective test like the MMPI-2.  Otherwise, if it's just interviews, it won't be conclusive.

Then, if the results show BPD or some other psych disorder, you can research to find the impact on the kids.  For example, there are studies showing that a child raised by someone with BPD is at much, much higher risk for depression, substance abuse, etc. than most kids.

Read "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson, and check out the footnotes - tons of published information.

But... .to get that kind of information in front of the court, you might have to hire an expert witness, who can testify about the subject and be cross-examined.

You're making a chain and it's only as good as its weakest link.  The links are:

* The other party has one or more serious psychological disorder.

* Kids who spend too much time with someone who has that disorder are at much higher risk over time.

* The only way to keep their risk low is to put them mostly in the care of a psychologically-healthy parent.

* You are their only psychologically-healthy parent.

Matt,

All that you have written has happened... .i am still fighting the golden uterus defense and a shady gender biased court. I have the kids, but they still like you said keep giving her chances.

B
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 02:29:11 AM »

Again, it is shocking to see that courts worldwide seem to behave the same way.

If someone has PROVEN at VAIRIOUS TIMES over a period of severeal years that he/she's not able to raise a child in a healthy way, why isn't the right to make decisions taken away from them?

In our case bad decisions, who affected SS' mental health a lot, were made throughout all his life. To everyone it's obvious that SS is having issues. Yet, our attorneys and the social services tell us not to go to court until something "really bad" happens (i.e: her, keeping on the refusal of medical diagnosis/treatment, but how long shall we wait to get help for him?).

I hope social services can bring a little light to the dark in the next weeks.

All I can tell you, Bellerphon, DOCUMENT AND FILE EVERYTHING! Try to get everything in written form and only talk to her with witnesses. Take pictures. This sounds so harsh, but we found it to be the only way to deal with everything if one day we really need to go to court.
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2014, 01:28:29 PM »

Again, it is shocking to see that courts worldwide seem to behave the same way.

If someone has PROVEN at VAIRIOUS TIMES over a period of severeal years that he/she's not able to raise a child in a healthy way, why isn't the right to make decisions taken away from them?

In our case bad decisions, who affected SS' mental health a lot, were made throughout all his life. To everyone it's obvious that SS is having issues. Yet, our attorneys and the social services tell us not to go to court until something "really bad" happens (i.e: her, keeping on the refusal of medical diagnosis/treatment, but how long shall we wait to get help for him?).

I hope social services can bring a little light to the dark in the next weeks.

All I can tell you, Bellerphon, DOCUMENT AND FILE EVERYTHING! Try to get everything in written form and only talk to her with witnesses. Take pictures. This sounds so harsh, but we found it to be the only way to deal with everything if one day we really need to go to court.

Oh I do document and it is what has saved me when she tried to file a protective order against me (lost), and it is the sole reason I have the kids.

Last night on a 3rd partty server she sent me a article implying I was being a bad ex, she lives in her "own private idaho".

Sigh.
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« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 12:39:50 PM »

Can you request a volunteer GAL or a CASA  (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for your children?  They would have some credibility in court when it comes to documenting the emotional abuse because they would have put in the time to talk to you, your kids and anyone that you think they need to consult.  The CASA/GAL is only assigned to one family at a time, unlike a social worker or parenting coordinator, so they can put your case at the forefront and spend as much time with your children as needed.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 01:37:32 PM »

My L suggested we file to strip N/BPDx of his parental rights. It's hard to get it through the courts -- not just for moms, but for dads. From what I understand, it comes down to the judge. Some just won't do it. Some do it and then it gets overturned in appellate court. The judge in my case is rotating off the bench end of year, and my L thinks this is my best shot. She looked at the other two judges, one of them rotating in from some other court, and said they are way more cautious. Which, as an aside, made me laugh. I've had 51 orders filed in 4 years. Hard to imagine what things would be like with a bad judge... .

Can you find out from your attorney if your judge has ever stripped parental rights, and compare your case with the others? Assuming you always have the same judge. One of the things we pay for when we hire lawyers is their inside knowledge of how a judge behaves on the bench.
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Bellerphon

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« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2014, 09:42:11 AM »

Can you request a volunteer GAL or a CASA  (Court Appointed Special Advocate) for your children?  They would have some credibility in court when it comes to documenting the emotional abuse because they would have put in the time to talk to you, your kids and anyone that you think they need to consult.  The CASA/GAL is only assigned to one family at a time, unlike a social worker or parenting coordinator, so they can put your case at the forefront and spend as much time with your children as needed.

I have both. They are just as confounded with thee behavior by the xBPDw. Getting them to come to grips with a BPD is hard especially when the new therapist for the wife is partisan and is saying she isn't a BPD refuting the diagnosis in 2010.

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david
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2014, 07:20:19 AM »

Don't know if this would help. Figure a way to have supervised visitation until ex does such and such. The key is to figure what that such and such needs to be. One thought is that she has to clear a drug test before she can see the kids even with supervision. If she is using all the time that would effectively prevent her from seeing the kids and put the burden on her.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2014, 08:33:22 AM »

Don't know if this would help. Figure a way to have supervised visitation until ex does such and such. The key is to figure what that such and such needs to be. One thought is that she has to clear a drug test before she can see the kids even with supervision. If she is using all the time that would effectively prevent her from seeing the kids and put the burden on her.

This is what's happening in my case right now. My ex had to get a psych eval, get substance abuse treatment, and go to anger management classes. At the same hearing, the judge actually reinstated visitation, and said he could see S13, but had to also do these three other things within 30 days. Even though N/BPDx could actually see S13 while he was doing these things, he couldn't pull any of it together.

You could do something like this -- ask to terminate visitation, then the judge might compromise and say it has to be supervised visitation. If the judge does terminate visitation, it is probably still going to be a temporary measure, but you load it up with a bunch of things that your ex has to do in order to get visitation back. The point isn't to get her to do any of these things, the point is knowing that she probably won't, which gives your kids some protection for a while. I want to get my son as much protection until he's old enough to have a relationship with his dad on his own terms, including being able to get in his car and drive away if it comes to that. Custody orders said N/BPDx wasn't to drink before or during visitation, but you know how that goes. Impossible to enforce. It didn't take much alcohol for N/BPDx's personality to change, and S13 has a sixth sense about when his dad had been drinking. Your kids probably do too.

If you do get parental rights terminated, are you going to feel ok about it?

My son hasn't seen his dad for 8 months. I wasn't sure how he was going to do with it, but my therapist coached me on how to handle things and S13 had a big breakthrough. The short version is that I told him the truth, and it was cathartic for him.

It's deeply ingrained to think that a child needs both parents. But I've seen the opposite happen. S13 is always going to carry around a big ball of hurt about his dad. Except now that ball of hurt isn't consistently harming him.







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Bellerphon

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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2014, 09:47:16 AM »



If you do get parental rights terminated, are you going to feel ok about it?

I have no problem with her termination. After reviewing the divorce trial transcripts, the three published papers on the development children with BPD mothers, and the ongoing continues and deliberate attempts to undermine the children's wellbeing it is for me a nessecity. She is deliberately defying the directives of the Social Worker, lying to the kids, being the master manipulator (even the co-parenting coach, a Ph.D is exasperated. The best part is now after being told that she couldn't come to the soccer games, by the social worker, my dBPDxw this friday deliberately asked my D6 if she wanted her mom at the games. The parenting co-parenting coach was flabbergasted.
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2014, 10:05:15 AM »

I have SS's. They are xBPDw from her first marriage. They are in their late 20's and early 30's. One has serious substance abuse issues and recently pleaded guilty to distribution of schedule 1 narcotics. He hasn't been sentenced yet. He is enmeshed with his mom and is a mess. Another one is LC with his mom and we have agreat relationship. Another is NC and has been for 7 years now. We have agreat relationship. Our two boys see it all and have figured things out.

I don't agree that both parents are needed in a child's life. It really depends on the two parents. If one parent is out to lunch it doesn't help them to be constantly exposed to the insanity.

The two SS's that are doing okay have a great relationship together. They have little contact with their brother with issues.

I got a front row seat for the last 20 years and watched how things played out. The thing I noticed is that boundaries are important. The two SS's made boundaries with their mom and brother. It was up to the mom and brother. They made their choices and there were consequences to their choices. I teach our two boys about choices and consequences. We have really good discussions and that is the key. Learning to communicate/compromise/etc is a skill that their mom lacks. My ex still doesn't have the ability to communicate with me. We only email each other. Ex can't answer simple questions and I stopped expecting them.

Recently our S11 told me his mom said she was taking them out to buy shoes for school. She hasn't bought them shoes for over three years now. I sent an email simply asking if she was buying shoes for the boys. I received an email that would print out at a full page. Nowhere did she answer the question. I waited a week and bought them both shoes.
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