I'm so glad I took that step 5 months ago - Boundries

[Moselle]

Has anybody got a success story where they've used boundaries, that they can share?

Here is mine.

On Jan 07, my wife had raged for 3 weeks and hit me again having physically abused me for years. Something snapped inside me, and I just left. I had had enough.

2 months later I had discovered BPD and BPDfam. I had no explicit boundaries with my separated uBPDw whatsoever. She had continued to rage for those two months.

When I read the lessons about how to set boundaries, there was a lot of advice about how boundaries reflect our values. To be honest I was still working all of that out. I needed some boundaries urgently so I went to the "UN declaration of human rights", and borrowed theirs LOL, adjusting them a bit, for my personal situation.

Right to dignity

Right to truth

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy

Right to leave if persecuted

The right to freedom of expression and opinion

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Justice and fairness

The right to uninterrupted rest and leisure

Security of personal effects

Self determination and autonomy

Right to peace

Right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

I'm sure this varies significantly from the traditional Boundaries 101, because I went from a relationship with no boundaries whatsoever, to one with 14. I'd hardly recommend this as a way to soothe a pwBPD she hated it. But I figured why add these one at a time? Lets make a step change, so I tried it and while she has called it "fairly talk" and "UN (expletive)" at first, I stuck to it. And she respects them now for the most part. She even says she feels safe with some of the boundaries.

I am adding higher concepts like nurturing and reciprocation now, but I am  so glad I took that step 5 months ago.

By the way she apologised last night for the years of violence, and she said she was diagnosed with BP and NP traits. Bearing in mind I spent 4 years trying to caretake her into admitting that, it it a massive watershed for her (and for me). Thanks to all the coaches/members on bpdfamily. You've been amazing to help me get to this point. I can officially write dBPDw for the first time!

I asked if she understood that if she hit me again, the relationship is over? She said she understood. I then asked what she was going to do to make up for the pain she had caused. She said "I'll not hit you again, and I'll love you with my hands instead" Awww!

I'm careful not to get too excited by all of this yet, I recognise the nature of BP/NP, and that she'll need to be consistent through the FOG. I stuck it all in an email and sent it to her, to get it into B&W.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[meerkat1]

I am new and just learning, so no boundary stories to share.

Can you point to some specific resources that helped you learn how to establish those boundaries?

[Moselle]

I am new and just learning, so no boundary stories to share.

Can you point to some specific resources that helped you learn how to establish those boundaries?

On the front page of BPDfam is the link "Getting our Values and Boundaries in order"

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries.

Hey that's OK. We're all still learning.

What are the key issues for you in your relationship? I remember lack of nurturing being one of them. LOL

[meerkat1]

Oh, so many issues. Where to start, where to end?

nurturing is on there, but not at the top of the list.

I would say at the top of the list are the rages. The belittling, berating, and verbal abuse that goes with the rages. That has to stop, before anything else can transpire.

From my experience that constant fear of rage and/or retribution overrides all.

So I have gotten pretty good at not invalidating. That was really really big help in preventing the rages. Working on the validation and the boundary setting for times that does not work.

[Moselle]

Oh, so many issues. Where to start, where to end?

nurturing is on there, but not at the top of the list.

I would say at the top of the list are the rages. The belittling, berating, and verbal abuse that goes with the rages. That has to stop, before anything else can transpire.

From my experience that constant fear of rage and/or retribution overrides all.

So I have gotten pretty good at not invalidating. That was really really big help in preventing the rages. Working on the validation and the boundary setting for times that does not work.

Well, I'm the other way round. Boundary defenses are my first resort.

Validation during a rage is not my strong point. What do you to validate her when she's screaming at you? I'm more likely to tell her to behave like an adult. Which works remarkably well for mine.

[meerkat1]

The problem is she is like a light switch that won't turn off. Once the rage is on, there is no turning back. It is on, and it goes on and on. Validation does not work at that point.

The last two weeks I have been doing pretty good (knock on wood) at curbing the onset of the rages. Mostly through not invalidating. I have not really gotten to the validating, at least not consistently. And to this point I have not gotten boundaries to work. I have a lot to learn on that part.

[Inquisitive1]

One of the main things I learned about boundaries here was the idea that I'm setting boundaries for myself, not for my BPDw. I can only control my own behavior, not hers.

Over these last couple of months I set a boundary for myself that if she didn't start dealing with her debt and spending, I'd first completely separate my financing from her and, if things were still out of control, I'd ultimately have to divorce her. I never directly described these boundaries to my wife, but I did allude to them at times. It also gave me a different attitude when dealing with her on financial issues. Plus I created a list of information I needed to get us on track financially. We aren't completely out of the woods yet but, knock on wood, we've made good progress.

[arsenal02]

I find boundaries difficult. One that I set was to leave the room when I feel like I'm being verbally abused or at risk of being physicallyharmed. But when I do that I "don't care" and it may even lead to her breaking tthings or cutting in what I presume is a cry for attention and validation. Yet, to avoid her doing that, I have to just take the verbal abuse. It's difficult to balance and to work put when ia right time to walk away and when it will just exasperate things in the heat of the moment. No win situation sometimes.

[Moselle]

The problem is she is like a light switch that won't turn off. Once the rage is on, there is no turning back. It is on, and it goes on and on. Validation does not work at that point.

meerkat, how long does she normally rage for? Mine was usually for 2-3 days every two weeks or so. Then in 2013, for 11 months, nothing, not once. Then in December 2013, she went on the mother of all rages. I separated from her after 3 weeks, and it went on for another 6 months non-stop.

What do you do for yourself, once she starts and you know it's not going to stop?

[Moselle]

I find boundaries difficult. One that I set was to leave the room when I feel like I'm being verbally abused or at risk of being physically harmed. But when I do that I "don't care" and it may even lead to her breaking tthings or cutting in what I presume is a cry for attention and validation. Yet, to avoid her doing that, I have to just take the verbal abuse. It's difficult to balance and to work put when ia right time to walk away and when it will just exasperate things in the heat of the moment. No win situation sometimes.

Aresnal, that is heartbreaking, and you must feel trapped. Is she open to therapy?

Are you able to see it coming a try to validate her before it launches into orbit?

I don't think it's healthy to stay in there and listen to it. Your own emotional health is bound to be affected. I know mine was when I stayed in.

Fortunately mine doesn't cut, but she did throw things and I have had suicide threats. Very recently like two days ago, she admitted to being diagnosed BP and NP (a lovely combination I might add), and she is in therapy, so I hope I've seen the back of that stuff, but there's now to know with this stuff.

[meerkat1]

The rages can last for a couple of hours to a couple days. Depends on how you define it. She may rage at me for hours, then be pissy for a week or more.

I have a hard time during the rage, same situation as arsenal02 describes. I try to leave, but she is following me around the house calling me names, taunting me. I try to leave the house, and she is screaming at me out the door or even blocking the door. And the yelling is about how I am just leaving her and not helping her. If I stay the verbal and emotional abuse just continues. If I leave it just happens later and the topic becomes how I left. That is a very tough boundary to establish.

[vortex of confusion]

I have a teeny tiny success story. I am still trying to figure out what all boundaries I want to set. But, I did identify ONE thing that bugs me like crazy. There is one topic that my husband will not leave alone. I set the boundary that I will not talk about that topic with my husband. He tried to bring it up several times the other night and I just kept repeating, "I am not going to talk about that topic." After several tries he gave up but not before saying something along the lines of "I only asked about it twice." I told him to stop badgering me about it. He tried to bring it via a backdoor. He danced all around the topic and I stood my ground. It was really, really hard to not give in and just talk about it.

Oh, and I have gotten a lot better about not getting sucked into his discussions and need to analyze every little bitty thing. I just sit quietly while he talks. I don't engage him at all.

[Moselle]

I have a teeny tiny success story. I am still trying to figure out what all boundaries I want to set. But, I did identify ONE thing that bugs me like crazy. There is one topic that my husband will not leave alone. I set the boundary that I will not talk about that topic with my husband. He tried to bring it up several times the other night and I just kept repeating, "I am not going to talk about that topic." After several tries he gave up but not before saying something along the lines of "I only asked about it twice." I told him to stop badgering me about it. He tried to bring it via a backdoor. He danced all around the topic and I stood my ground. It was really, really hard to not give in and just talk about it.

Oh, and I have gotten a lot better about not getting sucked into his discussions and need to analyze every little bitty thing. I just sit quietly while he talks. I don't engage him at all.

Thanks for sharing Vortex. That's great.

"I only asked about it twice"... ."Oh only twice, thank you kindly. Three times, now that would be a problem"

I've heard that about another BPD male having discussions like this as well. Is it a BPD male thing to have one sided discussions? My dBP/NPw, won't express an opinion. She'll typically ask me what I think and mirror that.

[meerkat1]

I have tried that non-engagement tactic with my wife. Just backfires. She seems to be expecting me to save her from herself. And when I don't even try, she just gets even more dysregulated.

Seems we all have to figure out what works and what does not with each person. Each situation and each person is a little different.

I have found that not invalidating and sometimes validating(when I can figure out how to do it) keeps things in check. Reduces the onset of the rage from the start.

My older son has taken notice, too. He noticed we had two whole weekends in a row without a major meltdown.

It is just weird that when she feels depressed, fat, and ugly I can tell her that I find her a beautiful woman that I love dearly. That somehow offends her and makes her angry, for years and years. But when she says she feels ugly and fat, and I simply say - I am so sorry that you feel that way about yourself.  Or even agree with her. She can move on. That is so backwards! Me: "Yes honey, you do look fat in those jeans". Wife: 'Oh thank you, I am so glad you finally decided to be nice to me".

Go figure!

I wish I could have figured that out 10 years ago.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for sharing Vortex. That's great.

"I only asked about it twice"... ."Oh only twice, thank you kindly. Three times, now that would be a problem"

I've heard that about another BPD male having discussions like this as well. Is it a BPD male thing to have one sided discussions? My dBP/NPw, won't express an opinion. She'll typically ask me what I think and mirror that.

That is the confusing thing about it all. He wants to discuss things and have one sided discussions but the discussions tend to be circular because he has an opinion but that opinion is subject to change in such a way that it feels like he has no opinion at all. Or, it sometimes feels like he is trying to draw me into a discussion and get me to state my feelings so that he can mirror them. It is a mind f**k. Communication is the one area that I am working on the boundaries the most. I cannot trust what he says at all. If he says, "I am going to do X." then I know I cannot rely on that because he is subject to forget or change.

Oh, and I don't think it is just a male thing. My mother, who is very throwed off, is the same way. I know that when I talk to my mother the conversation is going to be all about her. If I share something about myself, she will find a way to make it about her. My husband does the same thing. The difference is that when my mother gets too annoying I will just hang up on her. Or, I will cut her off mid sentence and say, "STOP, I am not going to listen to this." I may have to repeat it several times. Now, I am trying to do the same with my husband.

[vortex of confusion]

I have tried that non-engagement tactic with my wife. Just backfires. She seems to be expecting me to save her from herself. And when I don't even try, she just gets even more dysregulated.

I think it depends on what dysregulation looks like in your house. Here, he just gets really whiny and passive aggressive and goes into a funk. It is annoying but it is not inherently dangerous. He has had periods where he was angry and would slam stuff around. For the most part, I think mine is pretty harmless. I think that is the tricky part about boundaries. Most of the time I know what will happen when I try to put a boundary in place. Before doing it, I have to mentally prepare myself for the fall out and practice my responses in advance. If I feel blindsided, I am more apt to backslide and NOT enforce a boundary. A lot of times, I have had that deer in the headlights feeling and I am thinking, "I don't care about boundaries or anything else. I just want to get the heck out of this situation."

[Moselle]

I have tried that non-engagement tactic with my wife. Just backfires. She seems to be expecting me to save her from herself. And when I don't even try, she just gets even more dysregulated.

It is just weird that when she feels depressed, fat, and ugly I can tell her that I find her a beautiful woman that I love dearly. That somehow offends her and makes her angry, for years and years. But when she says she feels ugly and fat, and I simply say - I am so sorry that you feel that way about yourself.  Or even agree with her. She can move on.

I wish I could have figured that out 10 years ago.

Check this out on extinction bursts: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I rode my extinction burst for 6 long months. The big reward came 3 days ago when my uBPDw became dBP/NPw and she was the one who told me.

Well meerkat, you've just helped me a stack with your fat comment. I now know what to do. I always thought I was damned if I do and damned if I don't, when answering that question. And all she wants to know is that we're listening, and we empathise. Wow!

The difference is that when my mother gets too annoying I will just hang up on her. Or, I will cut her off mid sentence and say, "STOP, I am not going to listen to this." I may have to repeat it several times. Now, I am trying to do the same with my husband.

Great example. Sometimes we walk on the eggshells and don't want to interrupt, or rock the boat for fear of emotional fallout. It's best to stop them right there and then.

[meerkat1]

From Moselle -> Well meerkat, you've just helped me a stack with your fat comment. I now know what to do.

Be very careful with that. I did exaggerate, although just a little bit, to make the point.

A little softer approach to consider:

"I am sorry you feel fat in those jeans. That must be very hard for you to feel that way. I will do my best to help you lose weight or whatever you need to do so you don't have to feel that way. Please let me know what I can do."

Most importantly, don't disagree with her, that invalidates the feeling. You don't have to agree, just don't disagree, even if you are being nice.

It has been working for me, for a couple weeks at least. There have been times she has taken it as condescending. I almost fell into JADE, but back tracked very quickly and moved forward with some more genuine statements and a change in tone.

Tone is soo important. The BPD is extremely sensitive to tone.

Practice it if you can.

[Moselle]

Well meerkat, you've just helped me a stack with your fat comment. I now know what to do.

Be very careful with that. I did exaggerate, although just a little bit, to make the point.

A little softer approach to consider:

"I am sorry you feel fat in those jeans. That must be very hard for you to feel that way. I will do my best to help you lose weight or whatever you need to do so you don't have to feel that way. Please let me know what I can do."

Nah, I like your first one. I don't do this kind of caretaking any more! I used to though. Don't you think asking what we can do, takes responsibility away from them for their own thoughts, feelings and actions?

If she feels fat, it's something going on in her head not mine. I feel attracted to her anyway. I can empathise with her, but she's 35 not 3,5 years old, she can start acting her age now.

[vortex of confusion]

Nah, I like your first one. I don't do this kind of caretaking any more! I used to though. Don't you think asking what we can do, takes responsibility away from them for their own thoughts, feelings and actions?

If she feels fat, it's something going on in her head not mine. I feel attracted to her anyway. I can empathise with her, but she's 35 not 3,5 years old, she can start acting her age now.

I am so glad you said this. That was my first thought at well. In the past, I took way too much responsibility for my husband. I feel like asking how I can help with stuff like that is a contributing factor to my boundaries disappearing. 

[meerkat1]

Those are all good points. Offering to help, may be exacerbating the need to be saved. It has helped to relieve the conflict. And she has not even come back to get help for things that have transpired. To her it seems that it is an indication that I care. I stopped offering to help her with things a long time ago, because every offer to help in the past only brought indignation. I only brought back recently - coupled with the 'not invalidating'. Maybe I don't need to offer. Either way may not matter, she never really wants help anyways. She can't accept help no matter how sincere.

Actually the more I think of it. Since I have been offering in this way, she is doing more herself. She could not even make a stinking phone call to the school before.

[Moselle]

Actually the more I think of it. Since I have been offering in this way, she is doing more herself. She could not even make a stinking phone call to the school before.

LOL I had a phonecall earlier today about an event 14 years ago, where we had just moved to Holland. I had bought every train ticket, every meal, everything for 2 weeks. I said to her rather abruptly. "OK, it's time you bought something. You have to live in this country too". I remember her having a hissy-fit, but eventually buying the family train ticket.

My perception: I had helped her become more independent and confident in a foreign country.

Her perception: You took me to a new country, and broke my heart by forcing me to buy a train ticket. I felt destroyed and cried myself to sleep that night. I've never forgiven you for being so cruel.

How do you reconcile those two perceptions?

[vortex of confusion]

LOL I had a phonecall earlier today about an event 14 years ago, where we had just moved to Holland. I had bought every train ticket, every meal, everything for 2 weeks. I said to her rather abruptly. "OK, it's time you bought something. You have to live in this country too". I remember her having a hissy-fit, but eventually buying the family train ticket.

My perception: I had helped her become more independent and confident in a foreign country.

Her perception: You took me to a new country, and broke my heart by forcing me to buy a train ticket. I felt destroyed and cried myself to sleep that night. I've never forgiven you for being so cruel.

How do you reconcile those two perceptions?

I don't know if it is possible. There is usually a lot more to the story than the simple version you gave. 

I am thinking of an example from my own life where we moved two states away. It was in the winter and I had NEVER driven on snow and ice. If my husband had tried to force me to drive in that town without any kind of direction or assistance, I would have been livid because it would have been cruel. He knew that it was one of my biggest fears. It was his home town and I did not know where things were. We were living with his parents and they were very controlling. I wanted and needed his help. I needed him to give me some support or encouragement. I ended up figuring everything out on my own and rescued him in the process. 

So, if your wife was feeling stuck and helpless because she didn't know the area or the language or anything else, then yes, it could have felt very cruel. However, if she knew how to do it and knew how to navigate things and was not doing it because of pure laziness or lack of desire, then that is a very different story.

[Moselle]

I don't know if it is possible. There is usually a lot more to the story than the simple version you gave.  

I am thinking of an example from my own life where we moved two states away. It was in the winter and I had NEVER driven on snow and ice. If my husband had tried to force me to drive in that town without any kind of direction or assistance, I would have been livid because it would have been cruel. He knew that it was one of my biggest fears. It was his home town and I did not know where things were. We were living with his parents and they were very controlling. I wanted and needed his help. I needed him to give me some support or encouragement. I ended up figuring everything out on my own and rescued him in the process.  

So, if your wife was feeling stuck and helpless because she didn't know the area or the language or anything else, then yes, it could have felt very cruel. However, if she knew how to do it and knew how to navigate things and was not doing it because of pure laziness or lack of desire, then that is a very different story.

Thanks Vortex, I really appreciate that feedback! There are two sides to the story.

I didn't do very well 14 years ago LOL. I recognise that I was being passive aggressive that day, not assertive. But today I sympathized, empathized, and apologized for doing it in an aggressive way. But I really wasn't trying to hurt her, I wanted her to build confidence in a foreign country. And the irony was that she needed that push. Thereafter, she really got stuck into the Dutch systems, and became the go-to person for all our expat friends who needed to figure stuff out. And it became a point of pride for her.

I'm figuring out how to do it in a different way though.

[vortex of confusion]

I didn't do very well 14 years ago LOL. I recognise that I was being passive aggressive that day, not assertive. But today I sympathized, empathized, and apologized for doing it in an aggressive way. But I really wasn't trying to hurt her, I wanted her to build confidence in a foreign country. And the irony was that she needed that push. Thereafter, she really got stuck into the Dutch systems, and became the go-to person for all our expat friends who needed to figure stuff out. And it became a point of pride for her.

I'm figuring out how to do it in a different way though.

Of course you weren't trying to hurt her just like she isn't trying to hurt you. 

It is like stubbing your toe. No, you didn't mean to stub your toe but it still hurts like he**! I have found that looking at intent and saying, "but I didn't mean to" isn't helpful. When my husband does it, it irritates me because it feels like he is somehow trying to make excuses. Likewise, when I say or do things that hurt my husband, it doesn't matter that I had absolutely no intention of hurting his feelings. The end result is that somebody got hurt.

Sure, somebody can need a push but there are better ways of doing it. I always think of swimming when people say, "Oh you just needed a push." Yeah, well, you don't have to walk up behind me and push me in the water while I am still in my friggin' clothes. Sure, I may learn how to swim but I am going to be one pi**ed off person. Even if I go on to be a marathon swimmer, it doesn't change the fact that you took it upon yourself to "teach" me something. And to make it worse, it feels like you are taking the credit for the fact that I went on to be a marathon swimmer because I just needed that initial push. :-)

And that is precisely why I have a difficult time with boundaries. I can see both sides of most issues and that leads me to be too compassionate and too helpful!

[Moselle]

I didn't do very well 14 years ago LOL. I recognise that I was being passive aggressive that day, not assertive. But today I sympathized, empathized, and apologized for doing it in an aggressive way. But I really wasn't trying to hurt her, I wanted her to build confidence in a foreign country. And the irony was that she needed that push. Thereafter, she really got stuck into the Dutch systems, and became the go-to person for all our expat friends who needed to figure stuff out. And it became a point of pride for her.

I'm figuring out how to do it in a different way though.

Of course you weren't trying to hurt her just like she isn't trying to hurt you. 

It is like stubbing your toe. No, you didn't mean to stub your toe but it still hurts like he**! I have found that looking at intent and saying, "but I didn't mean to" isn't helpful. When my husband does it, it irritates me because it feels like he is somehow trying to make excuses. Likewise, when I say or do things that hurt my husband, it doesn't matter that I had absolutely no intention of hurting his feelings. The end result is that somebody got hurt.

Sure, somebody can need a push but there are better ways of doing it. I always think of swimming when people say, "Oh you just needed a push." Yeah, well, you don't have to walk up behind me and push me in the water while I am still in my friggin' clothes. Sure, I may learn how to swim but I am going to be one pi**ed off person. Even if I go on to be a marathon swimmer, it doesn't change the fact that you took it upon yourself to "teach" me something. And to make it worse, it feels like you are taking the credit for the fact that I went on to be a marathon swimmer because I just needed that initial push. :-)

And that is precisely why I have a difficult time with boundaries. I can see both sides of most issues and that leads me to be too compassionate and too helpful!

Vortex, you do have a way putting things. I like it

But actually, you've opened my eyes a little bit. I like what you say about intent. That is one of the pitfalls of perception. We cannot determine the intent behind the action, and we often make snap judgements about why people do certain things.

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex, you do have a way putting things. I like it

But actually, you've opened my eyes a little bit. I like what you say about intent. That is one of the pitfalls of perception. We cannot determine the intent behind the action, and we often make snap judgements about why people do certain things.

I have always considered myself pretty good at communicating, which is why trying to talk to my husband can be so confusing at times. It is like we are speaking different languages. '

I was a part of a discussion list several years ago and one of the take aways that I got from there was that it is really important to assume positive intent. If you assume that the intent is positive, it becomes a lot easier to be nice and not be as defensive. The only problem with that is that I assumed positive intent when there wasn't really any intent at all other than my husband being very self centered. His intent was all about him. He did what he did without thinking about anybody else, which is why he would get very perplexed with me when I would tell him how his actions impacted me. So, I try not to really think about intent at all and focus instead on the end result.

When thinking about boundaries, I know that me setting boundaries is going to confuse and possibly hurt my husband even though that isn't my intent. I have to stay focused on the final outcome, which is for me to set those boundaries. I love the boundaries that you spelled out in your first post! I have been really thinking about them and how I can implement them. I know I have to do it in small steps though or all he** would break loose.