Discussing break-up, Pt. 2

[ziniztar]

Okay. Doc didn't really agree with the whole setting fixed times either, simply because we both have autonomy issues. dBPDbf is very strong about being able to do whatever he wants. And because of my fear of 'losing myself' while adapting, I tend to demand certain behavior, which he is still incapable of controlling. When I ask, I feel very dependent, and he feels like he cannot fulfill my needs.

He advised me to express my desires (seeing each other a bit more, being involved in his therapy or recovery process, reciprocity in our conversations) and then give him space to think about a solution. I tend to be over-practical (i.e. controlling ) about what the solutions should be, giving him no time and space to think about possible outcomes. There is a difference between saying "I'd like to be more involved in your therapy process"  and "I want to go to your T or you go to mine." He feels forced, and reacts with more autonomy, what is usually the exact opposite of what I want. T said: just express your feelings, desires, literally tell him he can think about solutions, he's allowed to talk to his T or other people about it... and that he can take his time. My fear of him staying away for a whole month is probably quite irrational.

I think a good recap of the session was I should be more autonomous while not taking his autonomy away. Choosing to give him the space to think of ways to make things up with me, still feels free and independent, but does send out a message he has something to fix (i.e. not allowing him to treat me like garbage). It's not persecutor like because I don't take something away from him, I stay available, but express the seriousness of the situation.

Reflections, anyone?



Read Pt. 1 here: Will discuss break-up tonight

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[formflier]

 

Joining each others T's is a bad idea... .set's up a triangle.

I would encourage you to think about someone to help the r/s... .and only the r/s.  That person should have permission to talk to each of your T's... .about anything.

You don't want to know what they talk about... .let them do their professional thing. 

I'm not saying that this will fail without someone to monitor/help the r/s.  This is more in the frame of mind of how much effort do you want to put in the r/s to evaluate/save it.

This is my frame of mind speaking here... .not my advice... .take it for what it's worth.  I took the tact in my r/s that I was going to make sure that no stone was unturned... .no option unevaluated... .etc etc.

There were some that thought I was doing too much... .

Just stuff to think about.

But again... .joining someone's existing T situation is bad... long term.  Going for a few visits is ok. 

[ziniztar]

ow much effort do you want to put in the r/s to evaluate/save it.

... .

There were some that thought I was doing too much... .

I know, my friends think it as well. I also know I have a very strong image that love is something I have to work for. I am aware of it but it's not something I can easily change.

joining someone's existing T situation is bad... long term.  Going for a few visits is ok. 

Fully agree. Do not want to be there permanently, he and I need our own sessions. But just, once or twice, so she (his T) knows who I am... and can educate me a little. I would like that. Feel like there is more movement.

T also said that even though we discussed options to optimize the outcome this week, I should also be prepared that it is not going to work. That there is no 1 solution and it is possible he is not able to give what I need. I do tend to believe I've gotten to a point where I know I can't do that anymore. He has to fix something. If nothing is going to change, I won't continue. I know that. I didn't take my stuff out of his apartment for nothing - I want to be able to be out when I decide to.

[DreamFlyer99]

Detach from him and attach to yourself, is my very best advice. 

I think everything comes down to this one phrase. We can question ourselves for days and weeks about whether or not we're making the right decisions. But in the end even our boundaries are about protecting the things we value. So if we attach to ourselves as our primary objective, we begin to see what we want our tomorrow to look like, and the day after that and the day after that... .and we act accordingly. 

You ARE worth it. 

[ziniztar]

So if we attach to ourselves as our primary objective, we begin to see what we want our tomorrow to look like, and the day after that and the day after that... .and we act accordingly. 

thanks. I think I am slowly understanding what I would want out of this. I need time and space as well, to understand what happened, to grieve, heal. To experience if he really wants to change things.

At first I thought 'we need to get back on track immediately, or else things have fallen apart and there is nothing left'. Now I realize it's good for the both of us to have some space and give each other room to work through our own issues. I remember getting on this board (introduction post) and writing about his big first blow-up and saying "we are both in recovery of that episode now". I think I should allow myself to recover from this one.

Today at work I had a training about stress and the brain. They mentioned that nobody can always perform 100% and that it's something you have to deal with (in a team). They advised to ask: "What do you do when you are insecure or not in shape?" And then to ask: "What do you want me to do to get you out of it?"

Some people need a firm hand. Some people need to be left alone. Some people need reassurance. It's something we could all ask others and also good to know about ourselves... and tell our friends, family and... SO's. 

[formflier]

 

I have had struggles fearing "having space"... .and letting the r/s be for a bit.

Usually having space is good because it removes pressure and allowed me time for self-reflection...

[ziniztar]

I have had struggles fearing "having space"... .and letting the r/s be for a bit.

Usually having space is good because it removes pressure and allowed me time for self-reflection...

I can see that. It's the enmeshedness. I know now it's better to take the space and to deal with the uncomfortable feeling. Once that is gone, I get to feel what I really feel, not clogged by... well... FOG.

Following 'change only takes place through action'. I was feeling quite close to dBPDbf again, although we haven't seen each other. We share a Spotify account and he uses mine all the time. It annoys me, we had a deal he would use it offline but he doesn't stick to the deal. I pay for it.

We are supposed to see each other tomorrow, things are very icky. I noticed he used my account and I sent him a text:

'Hey I'm using the account.'

'Really? Sorry you're out of music for TWO SECONDS!'

It's probably a technical issue, which I explained to him, but I really can't handle thinking about this s*** right now. Is he doing it on purpose or not, is he testing me, I feel invalidated again. So I thought: why am I not changing the account, it's something I want, it will give me some rest, I can change it back if this whole situation is over. I realized I was not doing it out of Fear (of taking away his music when he is already feeling depressed and bad, of him getting angry at me at a time where I think I want to have him back). Then I realized: b/s! This is where you should change your behaviour! So:

'I think it's better if you start using your own account, I will change the password.'

'Really, what a pity. Whatever, you're the boss!'

 

This really shows the illness. He doesn't want to loose me, he's getting a chance of me not leaving him, things are very fragile... .and still reacts in this way about STUPID stuff.

I am very happy that I did this.

[DreamFlyer99]

It's so difficult when we non-sufferers think in terms of a non-disordered r/s. I know that all of us have our issues, disordered or not, but so much more comes into play with a disordered partner. The biggest thing: they look like adults, walk like adults, smell like adults--but emotionally they aren't adults.

Your bf's response to your text is that of a butt-hurt teen. You made a boundary to protect what you valued, the use of the very account you are paying for. Good for you! It doesn't honestly hurt him, you didn't buy into or react to his snarky comment. SO GREAT!

You aren't actually responsible for how he deals with his depression or sadness, he has to decide what's not working in his life. I found this a PAINFUL realization with my uBPDh... .nothing I said or did made a bit of difference, since he was the only one who could choose what to do! aaargghhhh

Does your bf react differently than you to the idea of space between you? I know my uBPDh would have a raging tantrum one night and then act like "what? why are you so moody?" the next day.

[ziniztar]

Wow... .

the Spotify account change is seen as abandonment (I think) and he is raging via text. He is threatening to come by my house and pick up his stuff tonight. He knows one of my friends is staying over.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

This has gotten so much out of control that my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear. Really, what the hell is happening. I stopped responding. Have warned my friend of a potential scene... I really don't think he'll do it, but if he does, the amazement will continue.

[DreamFlyer99]

I feel ya on that

my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear

!

You've changed things up, you're beginning to make boundaries to protect your values. Often the newness of all this can bring on what's referred to as an "Extinction Burst." https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

According to bpdfamily.com, extinguishing this pattern (of catering and soothing)isn’t easy, yet it is an essential first step in having a healthy relationship.  Taking care of ourselves may feel like a selfish focus - but as the emotionally healthier one, it’s important  that we not get bogged down in BPD induced dramas.  And it's important that we understand that our BPD loved ones aren’t mentally fit to be leading the relationship.

You're taking steps toward a healthier relationship. The result can be this burst of the rat-tat-tat texts bombarding you and questioning your new found boundaries.

It is pretty amazing. And you are doing an amazing job! Wish i'd had your cajones earlier in my relationship!

[123Phoebe]

the Spotify account change is seen as abandonment (I think) and he is raging via text. He is threatening to come by my house and pick up his stuff tonight. He knows one of my friends is staying over.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

This has gotten so much out of control that my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear. Really, what the hell is happening. I stopped responding. Have warned my friend of a potential scene... I really don't think he'll do it, but if he does, the amazement will continue.

Ziniztar, is it surprising it's gotten out of control?

What's done is done, however, would waiting until tomorrow during your scheduled visit perhaps been a less out of control way to handle this particular issue, so that it could be discussed calmly when you're actually together?

Now what?  How does your friend feel about being involved in a potential scene?

[ziniztar]

Ziniztar, is it surprising it's gotten out of control?

What's done is done, however, would waiting until tomorrow during your scheduled visit perhaps been a less out of control way to handle this particular issue, so that it could be discussed calmly when you're actually together?

Now what?  How does your friend feel about being involved in a potential scene?

In all honesty, I really didn't think he would get out of control this much. It's the 2nd time I see this and the first one was without the Concerta (ADHD medicin). I thought it wouldn't get this bad anymore. Perhaps he didn't take the damn drug today out of self destructiveness, I don't know.

She is okay. I know her, she knows me, very much centered and bhoeddist like. She understands the path I have taken... so I know who I've involved. I don't believe he will actually get here, he is raging impulsively and uncontrollably. He won't actually get on a train and get here, that is too much planning and control. He is a lot worse in text than he is in person. It's why I won't let it happen with her here, it's why I want it to happen when we're alone.

[formflier]

Zin,

You continue to do great things!  Keep it up.

The time to think things through is not when the heat is on... .it is before. 

So... please take some time and think about what you are going to do if he knocks on the door.

Please make sure you keep the door locked.

I too am doubtful this would happen... that he would go through the effort... .but... .better to be prepared than make a bad decision because it is a "snap" decision.

Also... .what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday?

[DreamFlyer99]

Ooh--I totally missed what 123Phoebe brought up about not being surprised it got out of control. One thing I had to learn to do with my uBPDh is kind of a "set and forget" boundaries action. Live my boundary and not keep talking about it. Helpful for not getting drawn into the cycle.

And I love Formflier's question, what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday? Having some clarity of thought ahead of time has really helped me in some of my interactions with my h. My therapist asked me before my h and I went to Hawaii, "what do you need to remember before you go?" I had never thought about that. But it occurred to me clear as day, "not wait for him." I've always felt I needed to wait for him to want to do things, lived around his life and desires. As a result of answering this question before vacation I had a great time though it was mostly by myself. I mean, who goes to Maui to sit in the hotel room and read? My h apparently. so I went out and watched the sunsets alone, shopped, sat by the pool, all that kind of stuff. And I enjoyed myself!

Both speak to preparation, I think.

And Saturday's a'comin.

[123Phoebe]

Okay. Doc didn't really agree with the whole setting fixed times either.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

He advised me to express my desires and then give him space to think about a solution. I tend to be over-practical (i.e. controlling ) about what the solutions should be, giving him no time and space to think about possible outcomes. There is a difference between saying "I'd like to be more involved in your therapy process"  and "I want to go to your T or you go to mine." He feels forced, and reacts with more autonomy, what is usually the exact opposite of what I want.

'Hey I'm using the account.'

'Really? Sorry you're out of music for TWO SECONDS!'

It's probably a technical issue, which I explained to him, but I really can't handle thinking about this s*** right now. Is he doing it on purpose or not, is he testing me, I feel invalidated again. So I thought: why am I not changing the account, it's something I want, it will give me some rest, I can change it back if this whole situation is over. I realized I was not doing it out of Fear (of taking away his music when he is already feeling depressed and bad, of him getting angry at me at a time where I think I want to have him back). Then I realized: b/s! This is where you should change your behaviour! So:

'I think it's better if you start using your own account, I will change the password.'

'Really, what a pity. Whatever, you're the boss!'

 

I think a good recap of the session was I should be more autonomous while not taking his autonomy away. Choosing to give him the space to think of ways to make things up with me, still feels free and independent, but does send out a message he has something to fix (i.e. not allowing him to treat me like garbage). It's not persecutor like because I don't take something away from him, I stay available, but express the seriousness of the situation.

Reflections, anyone?

In this latest situation, do you feel you followed your own and your T's advice?

It's hard hard hard walking our talk, I get that, too much actually   Until I did, NOTHING changed, in fact it got worse!  

Every single time he does something awkward, my mind goes to deleting something of his, ours, something between us; it's my own fantastical autonomy reader.  I don't act on it in the moment though (anymore), because I want there to be an us, not just me me me.  When my emotions go ZAP, I've learned to sit on it for a few and I'm usually very happy I did.  I can be every bit as impulsive as he can.  The stupid stuff we're not on the same page about is minor, but it can blow up big in no time.

Do you feel you're ready to really give this a go after his indiscretion, or do you maybe need some time away from it all?  

You've been through an awful lot

[ziniztar]

Phoebe,

I think there is a difference between setting fixed times (twice a week) and proposing how to spend it, and the scenario where we've had an agreement on when to see each other for days that he started to test once I changed my d*mn Spotify account. I didn't want to because:

- I am not at home

- or was not sure enough I would be but definitely didn't want to keep myself in because he was maybe coming after work maybe had ended (time unclear)

- or at least I don't want to have this scene happen when my friend is over.

Three very good reasons to keep him to his appointment, or he could propose a different time when I said tonight was not a good time. Perhaps Sunday, or three days after. But not pushing me to it when he felt like it. I don't care that he is angry right now. If he wants to do it this way, fine, here I draw the line. If I have to be thinking this through 5 steps in advance (and I'm already doing 3 out of pure habit), then I'm out. It should not become too complex.

[123Phoebe]

Oops, there's miscommunication going on here and realize what I said might've been confusing   I'm talking about in past tense, as in, bypassing this scenario altogether; not changing the Spotify account just yet...  I realize the past can't be changed, although there is a lot to be learned from it.

Using your T's advice, could this situation have been handled differently?  If you feel it was handled just fine then please disregard what I've said.  In the future, can your T's same advice be used in other matters, new situations that arise?

[Moselle]

Hi ziniztar,

I'm coming into the conversation late, but I've gone back and read this thread from the beginning and your situation has struck a chord with me, because my own situation has some similarities.

You sound very busy with alot of planning and preparing to account for many of the crazy things that your pwBPD might do, and I realise that you are experimenting with new behaviours to see what works and what doesn't. Perhaps prioritise what is really most important for you. Is it the spotify account or is is it the dates, or is it the telephone conversations, and be busy with just one of them. It might free up some energy to focus on your new assignment or other aspects of your life that aren't intertwined with his.

Also someone touched on acceptance, somewhere in your thread. Have you realised (without worrying if you're staying or leaving) that this person might never change, and can you live with that? The reason I ask that is that when I accepted that my uBPDw would never change, and completely blew off all the fixing, business, and caretaking that I was doing, she actually picked up the torch and took responsibility for her own changes.

I'm not sure whether her changes are mirrored, permanent, small or big. It's actually not my problem, it's hers. But that acceptance event was a massive gift to myself and I have found peace with life as it is now, not how I want it to be.

Make no mistake, I often forget this, and completely lose it in the FOG, or she surprises me in other 'interesting ways' LOL, but it was a massive inflection point for me personally and might worth exploring.

PS, I still have no idea whether I'm staying or leaving now, or in the future and I'm OK with that too.

All the best in your tough situation

[ziniztar]

Have you realised (without worrying if you're staying or leaving) that this person might never change, and can you live with that?

I have realized and no I cannot live with that. I'd rather have someone healthy. He cheated, he has something to fix. If he is blocking that fixing, things end.

In the future, can your T's same advice be used in other matters, new situations that arise?

I could not have deleted it and protected myself in other ways. But my music is sacred to me and when I am in recovery of HIS actions over the weekend, I do not want to walk into this issue every day while I am trying to recover. So It was to protect myself, if I loose him over that I am fine with it. I feel like I'm a wounded animal now licking its deep wounds that is being asked how I could have not roared at the new threat coming up in order for that threat to become more healthy. Things are really getting twisted now.

Also... .what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday?

He obviously didn't get here last night, although the tried via my roommate that has very good boundaries and replied that dBPDbf should discuss that with me and forwarded me the conversation. Thank god.

I have thought of four scenario's:

1) he gets here, angry, cheated again, hurtful

2) he gets here and breaks down when he sees me

3) he doesn't get here and does'nt contact me

4) mom or other relatives call to talk - they have fixed his issues with former girlfriends in the past

My reaction:

1) I let him go, won't fight him, won't demand talking. I see this as breaking up and any contact here after needs to be constructive.

2) I tell him what I need in the r/s and that he can think of ways how. He can take time and walk away.

3) I will text "Sorry our appointment didn't go through. I take it you will propose a new time."

4) I will decline talking to them and if they won't let me will let them know that their behaviour is absolutely not helping his progress. We need to have a talk at some point, I don't care if it's in a month or so.

My strategy: I can discuss matters from a "good friend" point of view, not a girlfriend. That way I don't fear having anything to loose (the only trigger that could fog up my actions). It's not that I had anything to loose really, if I look at the last few months.

[formflier]

1) I let him go, won't fight him, won't demand talking. I see this as breaking up and any contact here after needs to be constructive.

2) I tell him what I need in the r/s and that he can think of ways how. He can take time and walk away.

3) I will text "Sorry our appointment didn't go through. I take it you will propose a new time."

4) I will decline talking to them and if they won't let me will let them know that their behaviour is absolutely not helping his progress. We need to have a talk at some point, I don't care if it's in a month or so.

My strategy: I can discuss matters from a "good friend" point of view, not a girlfriend. That way I don't fear having anything to loose (the only trigger that could fog up my actions). It's not that I had anything to loose really, if I look at the last few months.

What will you do if dysregulation starts?  I bring this up because you have obviously thought through several reasonable courses of action.  Very good stuff... .

We know that when you put pwBPD under sress... .odd things can happen.  We know that our "bad" or "invalidating" reactions to their odd things can push their odd things... .in an odder direction.  (odder?  Hmmm... .I'll look it up later... )

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

[ziniztar]

What will you do if dysregulation starts? 

I haven't thought that one through really, as he rarely dysregulates in front of me. It's via text or in his actions (i.e. the cheating now, or silent treatments). I will look at this as a friend who is concerned about another. A friend would not be afraid to loose him, just be concerned. So I would just let him go if he wants to, not block him or try to convince him, shut him up... If he's out of control for too long I will calm him down a little or ask him to leave the house.

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

Thanks .

[formflier]

What will you do if dysregulation starts? 

I haven't thought that one through really, as he rarely dysregulates in front of me. It's via text or in his actions (i.e. the cheating now, or silent treatments). I will look at this as a friend who is concerned about another. A friend would not be afraid to loose him, just be concerned. So I would just let him go if he wants to, not block him or try to convince him, shut him up... If he's out of control for too long I will calm him down a little or ask him to leave the house.

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

Thanks .

Has he ever dysregulated in front of you? 

How would you try to calm him down?

[ziniztar]

So he got here. He was completely numb. A little sad and hopeless. Didn't want to talk much, had no idea how to get from here. I hugged him and he let me.

All our stuff has been exchanged now so there is nothing to take care of anymore. I asked him: "Where do you see this going?" "I don't know."

He wanted to leave, so I let him. Let him know that he can take space and the time he need to get through this. That contact is allowed, and that if he wants to see me I expect he initiates it.

Nothing more I can do. Will just have to get through the next weeks. I have a T session in 1,5 week where I will discuss the situation again... I have to draw a line somewhere.

[Moselle]

So he got here. He was completely numb. A little sad and hopeless. Didn't want to talk much, had no idea how to get from here. I hugged him and he let me.

All our stuff has been exchanged now so there is nothing to take care of anymore. I asked him: "Where do you see this going?" "I don't know."

He wanted to leave, so I let him. Let him know that he can take space and the time he need to get through this. That contact is allowed, and that if he wants to see me I expect he initiates it.

Nothing more I can do. Will just have to get through the next weeks. I have a T session in 1,5 week where I will discuss the situation again... I have to draw a line somewhere.

That takes a lot of courage. Well done!

[formflier]

 

Ziniztar,

 

Well done from me too... .

I urge you to go out and do something nice for yourself... .you have earned it! 

[ziniztar]

I think that was the scariest think I've done in my life  :'(.

Good things: we both ended a pattern.

He: quitting relationships. Although the cheating of course wasn't his best move. He has had numerous occasions and moods where he was able to say 'I want out' and he didn't.

Me: always keeping relationships until the bitter end. The whole 'getting our stuff out of each others apartments' is big for me, never did that before. Now it's up to him, and his progress.

Again. Scariest and hardest thing in my life. I hope it is worth it.

[DreamFlyer99]

It sounds like you're good with whichever way this goes--that's pretty strong.

His family tries to fix his relationships? Interesting.

Hang in there, girly! 

[ziniztar]

Not really... I hope that my rock bottem is his too. I hope he's going to find his motivation to change things and work even harder in therapy. I do think he needs the space from me to find out what he wants, if he is up for it.

I do know that him taking too much time will tell me his rock bottem wasn't reached. And that it's probably better I drew a line. It will still make me sad though. I'm glad I have my T to guide me in all this.

His family (esp mom) has arranged stuff with ex girlfriends for him right after they split up, because he couldnt talk to them anymore. Yeah that's not going to happen this time.

[ziniztar]

Okay. Day 2. Still feel hurt and sad, but it's getting mixed with me feeling proud of 1) changing a life-long pattern 2) upholding an important boundary.

He told his family today that we split up 'for the time being'. In my opinion that is quite greyish for a pwBPD so I'm glad. Was a bit afraid he would sabotage my efforts to give him another chance in the long run, by telling others we ended completely.

It's good to have some space. Read on the 'BPD in treatment' page here that sometimes as so's we can hinder progress in therapy because we enable bad coping mechanisms by staying in the r/s. Let's see what happens from here.

[DreamFlyer99]

The day by dayness of it all is so hard, right? 

I'm sure you already know this but it was such a great piece of advice from my T that I have to say it: we can only have "hope" in the things we can change about ourselves, anything else is just wishful thinking. (about hoping he finds his motivation.)

It's hard waiting these things out, but meanwhile it sounds like you are working on your own boundaries and growing stronger, and that is the awesome bit!

[formflier]

 

Hey Zin,

You still owe us the story of what you did special for yourself!   

I'm proud of you for living out your values... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

Okay. Day 2. Still feel hurt and sad, but it's getting mixed with me feeling proud of 1) changing a life-long pattern 2) upholding an important boundary.

Changing our lifelong patterns is tough work; kudos to you for recognizing change needs to take place

He told his family today that we split up 'for the time being'. In my opinion that is quite greyish for a pwBPD so I'm glad. Was a bit afraid he would sabotage my efforts to give him another chance in the long run, by telling others we ended completely.

How did this information become available to you?

Hurt and sadness is part of the deal when changing up our lives

[ziniztar]

Formflier, I went to my brother and had a great sleep over there .

Phoebe, his brother and sister contacted me to check how I was doing.

[ziniztar]

I'm sure you already know this but it was such a great piece of advice from my T that I have to say it: we can only have "hope" in the things we can change about ourselves, anything else is just wishful thinking. (about hoping he finds his motivation.)

Actually, I didn't know. Thanks for pointing this out. I know I have to also keep the scenario in my head where he stays stuck and is not able to turn things around. Again I do think it's good he's explaining it to people this way. I let him know we can still be in contact and discuss stuff, but that some things should change if we want to call this a relationship again. He knows I've done my part of the change, now it's his turn.

I'll go exercise tonight, have a few meetings with friends, a nice family weekend planned, a T session... .that should get me going . It's still really really hard though. I care for him and I hope for him he is able to turn things around as I know he really wants to. I know that I will survive either way.

[formflier]

  I care for him and I hope for him he is able to turn things around as I know he really wants to. I know that I will survive either way.

Zin,

Part of "growing up"... .and "growing" in general is that you will hopefully gain wisdom.  The process of gaining that is not always easy... .but with the perspective of time... .it is rare to find someone that isn't glad that they haven't gained more wisdom.

This will play out well in your own life... .and also in the lives of others that you care about.

Keep up the good work... .!

[ziniztar]

Part of "growing up"... .and "growing" in general is that you will hopefully gain wisdom.  The process of gaining that is not always easy... .but with the perspective of time... .it is rare to find someone that isn't glad that they haven't gained more wisdom.

Yeah... but don't you also have those days as well where you feel like it's unfair that some have to deal with this stuff because of early life circumstances, and others don't? I always know I want the change - and I will- because of the reason you mention (you're always happier with the wisdom than you were without). But today I am a tiny winy little bit sick   of all the pain I that is necessary before getting close to something more "normal". I know that if I don't change this now, I will get into a similar pattern with a future bf and I don't want that anymore. But it feels like a band aid burned into my heart that is slowly being pulled off  :'(.

[DreamFlyer99]

Ziniztar,

you've got the best thought going about learning all this now so you don't carry it into your future. Wise!

I'm a little relieved you didn't know about the "hope" thing, I generally assume everyone else got to these nuggets of wisdom long before I understood them... .i'm a really slow learner!

I had the total "OH" dumbstruck face when my T told me that about hope. I was always "hoping" this or that would change with my uBPDh... .then finally my T dropped that heavy nugget on me. WOW. That does change things... .

[formflier]

Ziniztar,

you've got the best thought going about learning all this now so you don't carry it into your future. Wise!

I'm a little relieved you didn't know about the "hope" thing, I generally assume everyone else got to these nuggets of wisdom long before I understood them... .i'm a really slow learner!

I had the total "OH" dumbstruck face when my T told me that about hope. I was always "hoping" this or that would change with my uBPDh... .then finally my T dropped that heavy nugget on me. WOW. That does change things... .

Dream Flyer99,

I think that nugget of wisdom might be a good thread on its own.

Is there a back story to it?  Encourage you to put that out there for discussion in a new thread.

[DreamFlyer99]

Formflier--

there was a thread out there once about it, maybe I can find it, and if not start a new one.

thanks.

Ziniztar, the thing you said about caring about your bf and wanting him to do better for himself? that's how I feel about my uBPDh too. I was always trying to make him happy, and it took me decades to figure out that wasn't my job. And I would like the same thing for him, whether it's with me or without. I get that too... .

Hope you're doing okay. 

[ziniztar]

Ziniztar, the thing you said about caring about your bf and wanting him to do better for himself? that's how I feel about my uBPDh too. I was always trying to make him happy, and it took me decades to figure out that wasn't my job. And I would like the same thing for him, whether it's with me or without. I get that too... .

Hope you're doing okay. 

Hey,

I understand this now, I can see it's not my job to make him happy. I guess that's the big break through I've had in the past couple of weeks. Why I did actually change the Spotify password. I had wanted to split the accounts for a long time because it annoyed the hell out of me, but I didn't because I was occupied what it would do to him.  Why I did pack my stuff and told him he could pick up his. I was afraid me quitting things would send him into the deepest low one can think of. He mentioned a few times ‘If I can’t hold a relationship with you, then I can’t do it with anyone.” Now I realize this is probably what needed to happen.

I care for him and wish him the best. I know how much he is working on this, I’ve seen him growing from getting hurt when I mentioned BPD (whilst it was already diagnosed!) to actively calling it his own illness.

I’m struggling with thinking about when to contact him. I know I shouldn’t in these first few days because this is where I should calm down and get physically un-enmeshed. It always takes 2 to 3 days and then I feel quite like an individual again. But then? Should I – for the sake of it -  wait until he makes a first move towards me? Should it always be like that? That would drain all my energy out of me. It’s so difficult to ‘follow your heart’ when you also know that your heart is a little ill and that always following it will lead to you to more sorrow and aloneness.

For now I’ve decided that some contact is okay – I really want to know how he is doing and wish we could keep connected in some way. But he is the one that should suggest to see each other again. I’m not going to do that. Thinking of it actually makes me feel sick of myself, trying to mend things with someone who is not capable of mending. It’s like beating a dead horse, although in this case the horse is not dead, quite willing to get up actually, and doing everything it can to get up... but his legs are not strong enough yet.

The scary things is: I have no idea how long this is going to take. I’ve even looked the Dutch word ‘for the time being’ up to get an idea of what he could mean with it, as that is what he sent to his relatives about our break up. Kinda like discussing the difference between ‘two, a pair, some, a couple’. I’ve known for a long time I am anxious-obsessively attached (as supposed to anxious-avoidant, avoidant all over or healthy). I think the obsessiveness is in trying to figure out what he thinks of the r/s, what he is going to do, him him him him him. I’m slowly turning things around to me me me me me me me which he didn’t really like. I think we need this period of adjustment in order to potentially get to a new we we we we we. Or, more healthy and interdependent: he me we he me we he me we.

So, yeah, I am doing ok. Had a nice bath yesterday and went to bed early, took good care of myself. I've even instructed some friends that I'd like to go to the movies with them in stead of endlessly discussing my feelings, thoughts and r/s b/s. I always thought that was a good thing but I'm realizing that's obsession too and it would be healthier to step a way from that. So. Maybe a good point to start focusing on others (newbies ) on this board as well.   

[ziniztar]

Today I realize he can also flip to someone else in a few weeks. We talked a little yesterday, about us both being very hurt. In the evening he asked me if I was still awake and if we could talk, so he called. When it took him 10 minutes to actually call I checked in with him and he said: "yeah give me a minute... need to build up some courage".

He said he was really really really sorry about what had all happened. That he had prepared so much and now wasn't able to say it all.

I feel better because my 'connection' has been established... but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

[formflier]

So, yeah, I am doing ok. Had a nice bath yesterday and went to bed early, took good care of myself. I've even instructed some friends that I'd like to go to the movies with them in stead of endlessly discussing my feelings, thoughts and r/s b/s. 

 

[ziniztar]

but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

I think this is one of my core issues. I never had a real feeling of safety as my father would always get incredibly mad over something incredibly stupid. There was always something we did wrong, or that was not good enough, that we had forgotten... I remember playing at home (alone or with my brother) and feeling flashes of fear whenever my father would get home from work. Had we done everything he asked, did I leave any toys lying around, did I do anything wrong? Do I have time to fix it before he enters the house?

That feelings of calmness, warmth, safety that I felt when he WAS NOT around... always felt finite, with another outburst luring around the corner. The sentence "get out of my way" is the one I heard the most, when it should have been "I love you."

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

Will discuss this with T on Monday... I think it's a big part of why -even when we have split up- I still feel anxious about things falling apart. His online status on whatsapp can even trigger thoughts like 'what b/s that I think we're doing better and he really means what he is saying, he's texting someone else right now and this will be over in a few weeks'. That does not really give him a lot of credit either.

I guess I try to predict the future in order to prevent a false feeling of safety. Which in the end means I have a core belief that I am not safe, or welcome.

Does anyone recognize this?

[123Phoebe]

Sounds like you're digging deep for answers and asking a lot of really good questions of yourself.

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

I can recognize this (in myself) for sure.  Can you recognize yourself in this description of your Dad?

When I put a few things down in writing about my Mom... .Oh my!  And it made sense   I was raised by her, it's no wonder some of her characteristics rubbed off on me in intimate relationships (and beyond... .).

 

I own my very own fog machine!  It's tucked away in the closet for now

[ziniztar]

Sounds like you're digging deep for answers and asking a lot of really good questions of yourself.

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

Can you recognize yourself in this description of your Dad?

Harrrrr yes I do. I totally get it. I've had this mirror before when it got to 'being too late' at appointments, which my father always was.

I really tried to change things today. I asked a question (as in engulfment topic), he rang. Called over 1,5 hours and it was a nice, quiet, two-way conversation with a lot of honesty and respect. What I find the hardest part is to deal with him being really negative "I am not going to change.", that sets me into a panic state: I don't believe people can change if they don't believe they can, so if he believes he can't he won't and I should quit now? And yet he keeps dragging himself to the damn T every time, he even scheduled multiple additional calls this week. Is this a case 'actions speak louder than words'?

He asked me to write down what I expect from our r/s in the future, and also what the road towards there would look like. That's as far as he had gotten. What I think is interesting is that words like 'sometimes'  and 'maybe' are becoming part of his vocabulary. I asked him if he wanted to call tonight and he said 'I did it because you texted.' So I explained I'd like us to be honest to each other, and he said: 'Ok, in that case, just leave me a little until Sunday.' Which I of course find really hard, and I can't really hide my disappointment yet (I tend to become very silent whereas I usually have answers) but he knows I am willing to change this. I told him I was a bit scared about that but will do, and he even explained to me how busy his upcoming days will be. ':)id I take away your fear a little bit?'  

I think that was nice. So I told him I thought it was nice of him to do that, but that it's also something I will have to deal with myself.

Interesting talk.

Let's see what happens next.

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

[formflier]

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

zin,

I'm so glad that you used the word values... .  Rather than telling him exactly what to do. One of the great things about having a partner honor your values in a r/s is that when you see their actions and then understand how they decided on those actions... when thinking about honoring your value system.

My wife and I recently did this.

My values that I told my wife I wanted were Love, Gentleness, Kindness and Empathy

In my wife's letter to me she said she wanted

Truth, Trust, Love and Emotional and Physical Faithfulness


Hope this helps... .

[DreamFlyer99]

but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

OH this has been me! I am not there yet, but in working on a trauma workbook with my T i'm seeing that the sense of safety is something I will learn to carry within myself as my boundaries become clearer... .

[Moselle]

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

Ziniztar, I think values should be clarified in any relationship, but you might consider being more specific about behaviours too.

As far as I'm concerned, my marriage died 7 months ago, I've mourned it and it is gone for me. It needed a complete overhaul, so I have told my wife what I want with a list of From-To's. From: behaviours of the old marriage, To: what I want in my future relationship with my spouse. This way I'm specific about what I want, and it respects her choice to be a participant in that or to say "No thanks". I have accepted that she might opt out, but I have told her I will not compromise on what I want. I don't expect perfection and I have not put a timeline on it (I'm also internally being realistic about what a BPD NPD is capable of), but it was actually very therapeutic to define what I want.

Can I suggest a few From-To's like:

From: Using my Spotify account

To: Showing me respect by not abusing the access I gave you (I assume that's the real issue. Respect? )

Or From: Open conflict

To: If there's a problem, we solve it amicably.

I spent 4 days on my From-To's last week. If you'd like to use it, let me know and I'll private msg it to you.

[ziniztar]

the sense of safety is something I will learn to carry within myself as my boundaries become clearer... .

I guess it makes sense; you feel unsafe because you feel like you need the other person to set your boundaries because you don't have them yourself, meaning you have no foundation. Things are always unstable then. If you no longer need the other person you can create a solid ground, more stable, which feels safer. Hmm.

I spent 4 days on my From-To's last week. If you'd like to use it, let me know and I'll private msg it to you.

Yes I would like that ... .

[DreamFlyer99]

If you no longer need the other person you can create a solid ground, more stable, which feels safer. Hmm.

Oh! Beautifully stated! That even clarifies it for me!

[ziniztar]

Ok, so... .had the worst day I could think of yesterday. Started crying when I woke up, got to work, stressfull day there, then went back home and the minute I exited the building the tears came up again. That repeated this morning.

He asked me to not be in contact until Sunday as he was really busy and contact is difficult for him. I told him I would honor that but I feel so incredibly alone. It never works when people tell me that I can't contact them, I think it's potentially the biggest emotional abandonment I can think of. In the end he told me 'do what you want' (in a nice not saracstic way) and I told him I would contact him if I paniced...

Today I demanded (yes, demanded) that we stay exclusive until we know how to go further. That we can also decide not to continue together, but that I deserve the respect (until then) to not have to think that he is lying in bed with other people. It's the only thing I couldn't be "nice" about and ask. Then I said I'd really like to go out for dinner together on my bDay in a few weeks, drink a lot, and discuss things. I said him I will give a list of values on Monday after discussing with my T, but that it won't be 'I expect we see each other twice a week.' That I don't want to have expectations anymore, that I'd like him to do things because he wants to, not because I want him to. The exclusivity being the only exception to the rule. That we'll need to decide what I want and what he wants, and if there are discrepancies between that, we'll have to calmly discuss what to do about it. When I start thinking of lining up expectations I feel annoyed, anxious and  nauseous. Yesterday I tried making a nice 'from to' list, or a list with values, and it only resulted in me crying even harder, losing faith that he will ever be able to grow into a mature adult... and also recognizing that with my issues, I would really benefit from a mature adult and that dBPDbf and me probably are only worsening each other. That hurt a lot.

I have no idea what his response is yet, left my phone at home. In all honesty I don't see it working anymore. He is discussing owning a business this weekend. The only thing I see is that he'll be working 7 days a week, with no time or willingness to be with me.

I feel like this is going to end.

[formflier]

 

   

The work you are doing is hard... .and emotional... .and I'm convinced  that it is good for you in the long run.

Remember when you are working on these lists of values that they are for you... .not him.  You will be the one living them out... .you will be the communicating these values to other people...

Keep it up... .!


 

[123Phoebe]

Today I demanded (yes, demanded) that we stay exclusive until we know how to go further. That we can also decide not to continue together, but that I deserve the respect (until then) to not have to think that he is lying in bed with other people. It's the only thing I couldn't be "nice" about and ask. Then I said I'd really like to go out for dinner together on my bDay in a few weeks, drink a lot, and discuss things.

He can't do this for you, to ease your mind, that's your job to take care of   Your panic is not his issue.  I don't see how beating him up about it, demanding anything, will bring you closer.  

Drinking a lot and discussing things is never a good idea, they do not go hand in hand.

This is tough stuff, no doubt.

I feel like this is going to end.

Can you forgive him or is it too soon?  Does this in between feel healthy and good?

  

[Moselle]

Ok, so... .had the worst day I could think of yesterday. Started crying when I woke up, got to work, stressfull day there, then went back home and the minute I exited the building the tears came up again. That repeated this morning.

I have no idea what his response is yet, left my phone at home. In all honesty I don't see it working anymore. He is discussing owning a business this weekend. The only thing I see is that he'll be working 7 days a week, with no time or willingness to be with me.

I feel like this is going to end.

A day is a long time in a BPD relationship. That is: alot can happen and we can have emotional swings and roundabouts. Then things can revert to normal as well.

You must be really sore to think this is going to end. Hang in there!

Perhaps he's just also hurting, and wants to fill his time with something which is constructive - a business. He might also be trying to work hard to try and support a relationship. Just challenging your perceptions a little bit.

[ziniztar]

It seems as though I can't forgive him. My own abandonment fears and subseqent panic-anger cycle is cycling through the roof. My point is: I understand my panic is not his responsability, I understand he is probably trying to get stronger and more self-sufficient. I understand all that.

What I can't expect from myself nor him is that now we know what is wrong, we can change it instantly. I can't change my neediness, anger or panic overnight. He can't change his intimacy and emotional regulation issues overnight.

One of the strategies of an anxiously attached person is "next time I'll try a little harder". So I was noticing I was trying to perfect my response to his request for expectations. Discussing it here, searching on the internet, discussing it with T, asking him for advice so I could come well prepared. It's allmost as if I am trying a little too hard to be perfect again, not wanting to loose the option we still have to stay together.

Well, why would I want that? He is someone who will constantly trigger my fears, making my own needed recovery a lot more complicated. I got extremely mad at his request to lay low until Sunday because he needed it. What about what I need? YOU broke something. Why don't you ask 'hey girl, sorry I did that, what can I do to make this up? I need some space, how can I make that less painful for you?' Knowing we both are in recovery I think we should support each other. I should not expect I can be perfect at once, so if he does not react well to my demand of us being exclusive, I'm ok with it ending. I need someone to be supportive of my own journey, someone who is not affected by all this. Some room to be imperfect while working on my issues, without immediately triggering them again. I've had a r/s like that between 18 and 21, and the more I think about it the more I long the peace and calmness related to that r/s. If he can't deal with me right now, we can't deal with each other because my motivation to support him through his journey has dropped below zero after he cheated. I didn't deserve that.

[ziniztar]

Well, he didn't respond to the messages. That could be good. I like that. He is taking his space and giving it time, instead of getting mad at me for texting him (opposing distance) or saying 'yes okay I will do that' while I know he doesn't mean it.

This potentially could work. Let's see what happens during the weekend.

[Moselle]

This potentially could work. Let's see what happens during the weekend.

Well done. It looks like today's going better for you. Hope you have a peaceful weekend with all of this.

[Rapt Reader]

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