Discussing break-up, Pt. 2

[ziniztar]

Okay. Doc didn't really agree with the whole setting fixed times either, simply because we both have autonomy issues. dBPDbf is very strong about being able to do whatever he wants. And because of my fear of 'losing myself' while adapting, I tend to demand certain behavior, which he is still incapable of controlling. When I ask, I feel very dependent, and he feels like he cannot fulfill my needs.

He advised me to express my desires (seeing each other a bit more, being involved in his therapy or recovery process, reciprocity in our conversations) and then give him space to think about a solution. I tend to be over-practical (i.e. controlling ) about what the solutions should be, giving him no time and space to think about possible outcomes. There is a difference between saying "I'd like to be more involved in your therapy process"  and "I want to go to your T or you go to mine." He feels forced, and reacts with more autonomy, what is usually the exact opposite of what I want. T said: just express your feelings, desires, literally tell him he can think about solutions, he's allowed to talk to his T or other people about it... and that he can take his time. My fear of him staying away for a whole month is probably quite irrational.

I think a good recap of the session was I should be more autonomous while not taking his autonomy away. Choosing to give him the space to think of ways to make things up with me, still feels free and independent, but does send out a message he has something to fix (i.e. not allowing him to treat me like garbage). It's not persecutor like because I don't take something away from him, I stay available, but express the seriousness of the situation.

Reflections, anyone?



Read Pt. 1 here: Will discuss break-up tonight

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[formflier]

 

Joining each others T's is a bad idea... .set's up a triangle.

I would encourage you to think about someone to help the r/s... .and only the r/s.  That person should have permission to talk to each of your T's... .about anything.

You don't want to know what they talk about... .let them do their professional thing. 

I'm not saying that this will fail without someone to monitor/help the r/s.  This is more in the frame of mind of how much effort do you want to put in the r/s to evaluate/save it.

This is my frame of mind speaking here... .not my advice... .take it for what it's worth.  I took the tact in my r/s that I was going to make sure that no stone was unturned... .no option unevaluated... .etc etc.

There were some that thought I was doing too much... .

Just stuff to think about.

But again... .joining someone's existing T situation is bad... long term.  Going for a few visits is ok. 

[ziniztar]

ow much effort do you want to put in the r/s to evaluate/save it.

... .

There were some that thought I was doing too much... .

I know, my friends think it as well. I also know I have a very strong image that love is something I have to work for. I am aware of it but it's not something I can easily change.

joining someone's existing T situation is bad... long term.  Going for a few visits is ok. 

Fully agree. Do not want to be there permanently, he and I need our own sessions. But just, once or twice, so she (his T) knows who I am... and can educate me a little. I would like that. Feel like there is more movement.

T also said that even though we discussed options to optimize the outcome this week, I should also be prepared that it is not going to work. That there is no 1 solution and it is possible he is not able to give what I need. I do tend to believe I've gotten to a point where I know I can't do that anymore. He has to fix something. If nothing is going to change, I won't continue. I know that. I didn't take my stuff out of his apartment for nothing - I want to be able to be out when I decide to.

[DreamFlyer99]

Detach from him and attach to yourself, is my very best advice. 

I think everything comes down to this one phrase. We can question ourselves for days and weeks about whether or not we're making the right decisions. But in the end even our boundaries are about protecting the things we value. So if we attach to ourselves as our primary objective, we begin to see what we want our tomorrow to look like, and the day after that and the day after that... .and we act accordingly. 

You ARE worth it. 

[ziniztar]

So if we attach to ourselves as our primary objective, we begin to see what we want our tomorrow to look like, and the day after that and the day after that... .and we act accordingly. 

thanks. I think I am slowly understanding what I would want out of this. I need time and space as well, to understand what happened, to grieve, heal. To experience if he really wants to change things.

At first I thought 'we need to get back on track immediately, or else things have fallen apart and there is nothing left'. Now I realize it's good for the both of us to have some space and give each other room to work through our own issues. I remember getting on this board (introduction post) and writing about his big first blow-up and saying "we are both in recovery of that episode now". I think I should allow myself to recover from this one.

Today at work I had a training about stress and the brain. They mentioned that nobody can always perform 100% and that it's something you have to deal with (in a team). They advised to ask: "What do you do when you are insecure or not in shape?" And then to ask: "What do you want me to do to get you out of it?"

Some people need a firm hand. Some people need to be left alone. Some people need reassurance. It's something we could all ask others and also good to know about ourselves... and tell our friends, family and... SO's. 

[formflier]

 

I have had struggles fearing "having space"... .and letting the r/s be for a bit.

Usually having space is good because it removes pressure and allowed me time for self-reflection...

[ziniztar]

I have had struggles fearing "having space"... .and letting the r/s be for a bit.

Usually having space is good because it removes pressure and allowed me time for self-reflection...

I can see that. It's the enmeshedness. I know now it's better to take the space and to deal with the uncomfortable feeling. Once that is gone, I get to feel what I really feel, not clogged by... well... FOG.

Following 'change only takes place through action'. I was feeling quite close to dBPDbf again, although we haven't seen each other. We share a Spotify account and he uses mine all the time. It annoys me, we had a deal he would use it offline but he doesn't stick to the deal. I pay for it.

We are supposed to see each other tomorrow, things are very icky. I noticed he used my account and I sent him a text:

'Hey I'm using the account.'

'Really? Sorry you're out of music for TWO SECONDS!'

It's probably a technical issue, which I explained to him, but I really can't handle thinking about this s*** right now. Is he doing it on purpose or not, is he testing me, I feel invalidated again. So I thought: why am I not changing the account, it's something I want, it will give me some rest, I can change it back if this whole situation is over. I realized I was not doing it out of Fear (of taking away his music when he is already feeling depressed and bad, of him getting angry at me at a time where I think I want to have him back). Then I realized: b/s! This is where you should change your behaviour! So:

'I think it's better if you start using your own account, I will change the password.'

'Really, what a pity. Whatever, you're the boss!'

 

This really shows the illness. He doesn't want to loose me, he's getting a chance of me not leaving him, things are very fragile... .and still reacts in this way about STUPID stuff.

I am very happy that I did this.

[DreamFlyer99]

It's so difficult when we non-sufferers think in terms of a non-disordered r/s. I know that all of us have our issues, disordered or not, but so much more comes into play with a disordered partner. The biggest thing: they look like adults, walk like adults, smell like adults--but emotionally they aren't adults.

Your bf's response to your text is that of a butt-hurt teen. You made a boundary to protect what you valued, the use of the very account you are paying for. Good for you! It doesn't honestly hurt him, you didn't buy into or react to his snarky comment. SO GREAT!

You aren't actually responsible for how he deals with his depression or sadness, he has to decide what's not working in his life. I found this a PAINFUL realization with my uBPDh... .nothing I said or did made a bit of difference, since he was the only one who could choose what to do! aaargghhhh

Does your bf react differently than you to the idea of space between you? I know my uBPDh would have a raging tantrum one night and then act like "what? why are you so moody?" the next day.

[ziniztar]

Wow... .

the Spotify account change is seen as abandonment (I think) and he is raging via text. He is threatening to come by my house and pick up his stuff tonight. He knows one of my friends is staying over.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

This has gotten so much out of control that my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear. Really, what the hell is happening. I stopped responding. Have warned my friend of a potential scene... I really don't think he'll do it, but if he does, the amazement will continue.

[DreamFlyer99]

I feel ya on that

my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear

!

You've changed things up, you're beginning to make boundaries to protect your values. Often the newness of all this can bring on what's referred to as an "Extinction Burst." https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

According to bpdfamily.com, extinguishing this pattern (of catering and soothing)isn’t easy, yet it is an essential first step in having a healthy relationship.  Taking care of ourselves may feel like a selfish focus - but as the emotionally healthier one, it’s important  that we not get bogged down in BPD induced dramas.  And it's important that we understand that our BPD loved ones aren’t mentally fit to be leading the relationship.

You're taking steps toward a healthier relationship. The result can be this burst of the rat-tat-tat texts bombarding you and questioning your new found boundaries.

It is pretty amazing. And you are doing an amazing job! Wish i'd had your cajones earlier in my relationship!

[123Phoebe]

the Spotify account change is seen as abandonment (I think) and he is raging via text. He is threatening to come by my house and pick up his stuff tonight. He knows one of my friends is staying over.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

This has gotten so much out of control that my amazement of the situation is taking over of fear. Really, what the hell is happening. I stopped responding. Have warned my friend of a potential scene... I really don't think he'll do it, but if he does, the amazement will continue.

Ziniztar, is it surprising it's gotten out of control?

What's done is done, however, would waiting until tomorrow during your scheduled visit perhaps been a less out of control way to handle this particular issue, so that it could be discussed calmly when you're actually together?

Now what?  How does your friend feel about being involved in a potential scene?

[ziniztar]

Ziniztar, is it surprising it's gotten out of control?

What's done is done, however, would waiting until tomorrow during your scheduled visit perhaps been a less out of control way to handle this particular issue, so that it could be discussed calmly when you're actually together?

Now what?  How does your friend feel about being involved in a potential scene?

In all honesty, I really didn't think he would get out of control this much. It's the 2nd time I see this and the first one was without the Concerta (ADHD medicin). I thought it wouldn't get this bad anymore. Perhaps he didn't take the damn drug today out of self destructiveness, I don't know.

She is okay. I know her, she knows me, very much centered and bhoeddist like. She understands the path I have taken... so I know who I've involved. I don't believe he will actually get here, he is raging impulsively and uncontrollably. He won't actually get on a train and get here, that is too much planning and control. He is a lot worse in text than he is in person. It's why I won't let it happen with her here, it's why I want it to happen when we're alone.

[formflier]

Zin,

You continue to do great things!  Keep it up.

The time to think things through is not when the heat is on... .it is before. 

So... please take some time and think about what you are going to do if he knocks on the door.

Please make sure you keep the door locked.

I too am doubtful this would happen... that he would go through the effort... .but... .better to be prepared than make a bad decision because it is a "snap" decision.

Also... .what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday?

[DreamFlyer99]

Ooh--I totally missed what 123Phoebe brought up about not being surprised it got out of control. One thing I had to learn to do with my uBPDh is kind of a "set and forget" boundaries action. Live my boundary and not keep talking about it. Helpful for not getting drawn into the cycle.

And I love Formflier's question, what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday? Having some clarity of thought ahead of time has really helped me in some of my interactions with my h. My therapist asked me before my h and I went to Hawaii, "what do you need to remember before you go?" I had never thought about that. But it occurred to me clear as day, "not wait for him." I've always felt I needed to wait for him to want to do things, lived around his life and desires. As a result of answering this question before vacation I had a great time though it was mostly by myself. I mean, who goes to Maui to sit in the hotel room and read? My h apparently. so I went out and watched the sunsets alone, shopped, sat by the pool, all that kind of stuff. And I enjoyed myself!

Both speak to preparation, I think.

And Saturday's a'comin.

[123Phoebe]

Okay. Doc didn't really agree with the whole setting fixed times either.

I say: 'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'Get them in front of the door you don't have to see me.'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You don't have to do anything! What is your problem!'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

'You are making me angry on purpose aren't you?'

'No. We have an agreement to see each other on Saturday.'

He advised me to express my desires and then give him space to think about a solution. I tend to be over-practical (i.e. controlling ) about what the solutions should be, giving him no time and space to think about possible outcomes. There is a difference between saying "I'd like to be more involved in your therapy process"  and "I want to go to your T or you go to mine." He feels forced, and reacts with more autonomy, what is usually the exact opposite of what I want.

'Hey I'm using the account.'

'Really? Sorry you're out of music for TWO SECONDS!'

It's probably a technical issue, which I explained to him, but I really can't handle thinking about this s*** right now. Is he doing it on purpose or not, is he testing me, I feel invalidated again. So I thought: why am I not changing the account, it's something I want, it will give me some rest, I can change it back if this whole situation is over. I realized I was not doing it out of Fear (of taking away his music when he is already feeling depressed and bad, of him getting angry at me at a time where I think I want to have him back). Then I realized: b/s! This is where you should change your behaviour! So:

'I think it's better if you start using your own account, I will change the password.'

'Really, what a pity. Whatever, you're the boss!'

 

I think a good recap of the session was I should be more autonomous while not taking his autonomy away. Choosing to give him the space to think of ways to make things up with me, still feels free and independent, but does send out a message he has something to fix (i.e. not allowing him to treat me like garbage). It's not persecutor like because I don't take something away from him, I stay available, but express the seriousness of the situation.

Reflections, anyone?

In this latest situation, do you feel you followed your own and your T's advice?

It's hard hard hard walking our talk, I get that, too much actually   Until I did, NOTHING changed, in fact it got worse!  

Every single time he does something awkward, my mind goes to deleting something of his, ours, something between us; it's my own fantastical autonomy reader.  I don't act on it in the moment though (anymore), because I want there to be an us, not just me me me.  When my emotions go ZAP, I've learned to sit on it for a few and I'm usually very happy I did.  I can be every bit as impulsive as he can.  The stupid stuff we're not on the same page about is minor, but it can blow up big in no time.

Do you feel you're ready to really give this a go after his indiscretion, or do you maybe need some time away from it all?  

You've been through an awful lot

[ziniztar]

Phoebe,

I think there is a difference between setting fixed times (twice a week) and proposing how to spend it, and the scenario where we've had an agreement on when to see each other for days that he started to test once I changed my d*mn Spotify account. I didn't want to because:

- I am not at home

- or was not sure enough I would be but definitely didn't want to keep myself in because he was maybe coming after work maybe had ended (time unclear)

- or at least I don't want to have this scene happen when my friend is over.

Three very good reasons to keep him to his appointment, or he could propose a different time when I said tonight was not a good time. Perhaps Sunday, or three days after. But not pushing me to it when he felt like it. I don't care that he is angry right now. If he wants to do it this way, fine, here I draw the line. If I have to be thinking this through 5 steps in advance (and I'm already doing 3 out of pure habit), then I'm out. It should not become too complex.

[123Phoebe]

Oops, there's miscommunication going on here and realize what I said might've been confusing   I'm talking about in past tense, as in, bypassing this scenario altogether; not changing the Spotify account just yet...  I realize the past can't be changed, although there is a lot to be learned from it.

Using your T's advice, could this situation have been handled differently?  If you feel it was handled just fine then please disregard what I've said.  In the future, can your T's same advice be used in other matters, new situations that arise?

[Moselle]

Hi ziniztar,

I'm coming into the conversation late, but I've gone back and read this thread from the beginning and your situation has struck a chord with me, because my own situation has some similarities.

You sound very busy with alot of planning and preparing to account for many of the crazy things that your pwBPD might do, and I realise that you are experimenting with new behaviours to see what works and what doesn't. Perhaps prioritise what is really most important for you. Is it the spotify account or is is it the dates, or is it the telephone conversations, and be busy with just one of them. It might free up some energy to focus on your new assignment or other aspects of your life that aren't intertwined with his.

Also someone touched on acceptance, somewhere in your thread. Have you realised (without worrying if you're staying or leaving) that this person might never change, and can you live with that? The reason I ask that is that when I accepted that my uBPDw would never change, and completely blew off all the fixing, business, and caretaking that I was doing, she actually picked up the torch and took responsibility for her own changes.

I'm not sure whether her changes are mirrored, permanent, small or big. It's actually not my problem, it's hers. But that acceptance event was a massive gift to myself and I have found peace with life as it is now, not how I want it to be.

Make no mistake, I often forget this, and completely lose it in the FOG, or she surprises me in other 'interesting ways' LOL, but it was a massive inflection point for me personally and might worth exploring.

PS, I still have no idea whether I'm staying or leaving now, or in the future and I'm OK with that too.

All the best in your tough situation

[ziniztar]

Have you realised (without worrying if you're staying or leaving) that this person might never change, and can you live with that?

I have realized and no I cannot live with that. I'd rather have someone healthy. He cheated, he has something to fix. If he is blocking that fixing, things end.

In the future, can your T's same advice be used in other matters, new situations that arise?

I could not have deleted it and protected myself in other ways. But my music is sacred to me and when I am in recovery of HIS actions over the weekend, I do not want to walk into this issue every day while I am trying to recover. So It was to protect myself, if I loose him over that I am fine with it. I feel like I'm a wounded animal now licking its deep wounds that is being asked how I could have not roared at the new threat coming up in order for that threat to become more healthy. Things are really getting twisted now.

Also... .what are you going to do to prepare for a good visit on Saturday?

He obviously didn't get here last night, although the tried via my roommate that has very good boundaries and replied that dBPDbf should discuss that with me and forwarded me the conversation. Thank god.

I have thought of four scenario's:

1) he gets here, angry, cheated again, hurtful

2) he gets here and breaks down when he sees me

3) he doesn't get here and does'nt contact me

4) mom or other relatives call to talk - they have fixed his issues with former girlfriends in the past

My reaction:

1) I let him go, won't fight him, won't demand talking. I see this as breaking up and any contact here after needs to be constructive.

2) I tell him what I need in the r/s and that he can think of ways how. He can take time and walk away.

3) I will text "Sorry our appointment didn't go through. I take it you will propose a new time."

4) I will decline talking to them and if they won't let me will let them know that their behaviour is absolutely not helping his progress. We need to have a talk at some point, I don't care if it's in a month or so.

My strategy: I can discuss matters from a "good friend" point of view, not a girlfriend. That way I don't fear having anything to loose (the only trigger that could fog up my actions). It's not that I had anything to loose really, if I look at the last few months.

[formflier]

1) I let him go, won't fight him, won't demand talking. I see this as breaking up and any contact here after needs to be constructive.

2) I tell him what I need in the r/s and that he can think of ways how. He can take time and walk away.

3) I will text "Sorry our appointment didn't go through. I take it you will propose a new time."

4) I will decline talking to them and if they won't let me will let them know that their behaviour is absolutely not helping his progress. We need to have a talk at some point, I don't care if it's in a month or so.

My strategy: I can discuss matters from a "good friend" point of view, not a girlfriend. That way I don't fear having anything to loose (the only trigger that could fog up my actions). It's not that I had anything to loose really, if I look at the last few months.

What will you do if dysregulation starts?  I bring this up because you have obviously thought through several reasonable courses of action.  Very good stuff... .

We know that when you put pwBPD under sress... .odd things can happen.  We know that our "bad" or "invalidating" reactions to their odd things can push their odd things... .in an odder direction.  (odder?  Hmmm... .I'll look it up later... )

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

[ziniztar]

What will you do if dysregulation starts? 

I haven't thought that one through really, as he rarely dysregulates in front of me. It's via text or in his actions (i.e. the cheating now, or silent treatments). I will look at this as a friend who is concerned about another. A friend would not be afraid to loose him, just be concerned. So I would just let him go if he wants to, not block him or try to convince him, shut him up... If he's out of control for too long I will calm him down a little or ask him to leave the house.

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

Thanks .

[formflier]

What will you do if dysregulation starts? 

I haven't thought that one through really, as he rarely dysregulates in front of me. It's via text or in his actions (i.e. the cheating now, or silent treatments). I will look at this as a friend who is concerned about another. A friend would not be afraid to loose him, just be concerned. So I would just let him go if he wants to, not block him or try to convince him, shut him up... If he's out of control for too long I will calm him down a little or ask him to leave the house.

Anyway... .center and calm yourself... .you know this stuff.  It doesn't have to be perfect... .

Today is a big day for you... .and you are worth it!     

Thanks .

Has he ever dysregulated in front of you? 

How would you try to calm him down?

[ziniztar]

So he got here. He was completely numb. A little sad and hopeless. Didn't want to talk much, had no idea how to get from here. I hugged him and he let me.

All our stuff has been exchanged now so there is nothing to take care of anymore. I asked him: "Where do you see this going?" "I don't know."

He wanted to leave, so I let him. Let him know that he can take space and the time he need to get through this. That contact is allowed, and that if he wants to see me I expect he initiates it.

Nothing more I can do. Will just have to get through the next weeks. I have a T session in 1,5 week where I will discuss the situation again... I have to draw a line somewhere.

[Moselle]

So he got here. He was completely numb. A little sad and hopeless. Didn't want to talk much, had no idea how to get from here. I hugged him and he let me.

All our stuff has been exchanged now so there is nothing to take care of anymore. I asked him: "Where do you see this going?" "I don't know."

He wanted to leave, so I let him. Let him know that he can take space and the time he need to get through this. That contact is allowed, and that if he wants to see me I expect he initiates it.

Nothing more I can do. Will just have to get through the next weeks. I have a T session in 1,5 week where I will discuss the situation again... I have to draw a line somewhere.

That takes a lot of courage. Well done!

[formflier]

 

Ziniztar,

 

Well done from me too... .

I urge you to go out and do something nice for yourself... .you have earned it! 

[ziniztar]

I think that was the scariest think I've done in my life  :'(.

Good things: we both ended a pattern.

He: quitting relationships. Although the cheating of course wasn't his best move. He has had numerous occasions and moods where he was able to say 'I want out' and he didn't.

Me: always keeping relationships until the bitter end. The whole 'getting our stuff out of each others apartments' is big for me, never did that before. Now it's up to him, and his progress.

Again. Scariest and hardest thing in my life. I hope it is worth it.

[DreamFlyer99]

It sounds like you're good with whichever way this goes--that's pretty strong.

His family tries to fix his relationships? Interesting.

Hang in there, girly! 

[ziniztar]

Not really... I hope that my rock bottem is his too. I hope he's going to find his motivation to change things and work even harder in therapy. I do think he needs the space from me to find out what he wants, if he is up for it.

I do know that him taking too much time will tell me his rock bottem wasn't reached. And that it's probably better I drew a line. It will still make me sad though. I'm glad I have my T to guide me in all this.

His family (esp mom) has arranged stuff with ex girlfriends for him right after they split up, because he couldnt talk to them anymore. Yeah that's not going to happen this time.

[ziniztar]

Okay. Day 2. Still feel hurt and sad, but it's getting mixed with me feeling proud of 1) changing a life-long pattern 2) upholding an important boundary.

He told his family today that we split up 'for the time being'. In my opinion that is quite greyish for a pwBPD so I'm glad. Was a bit afraid he would sabotage my efforts to give him another chance in the long run, by telling others we ended completely.

It's good to have some space. Read on the 'BPD in treatment' page here that sometimes as so's we can hinder progress in therapy because we enable bad coping mechanisms by staying in the r/s. Let's see what happens from here.

[DreamFlyer99]

The day by dayness of it all is so hard, right? 

I'm sure you already know this but it was such a great piece of advice from my T that I have to say it: we can only have "hope" in the things we can change about ourselves, anything else is just wishful thinking. (about hoping he finds his motivation.)

It's hard waiting these things out, but meanwhile it sounds like you are working on your own boundaries and growing stronger, and that is the awesome bit!