Discussing break-up, Pt. 2

[formflier]

 

Hey Zin,

You still owe us the story of what you did special for yourself!   

I'm proud of you for living out your values... .

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[123Phoebe]

Okay. Day 2. Still feel hurt and sad, but it's getting mixed with me feeling proud of 1) changing a life-long pattern 2) upholding an important boundary.

Changing our lifelong patterns is tough work; kudos to you for recognizing change needs to take place

He told his family today that we split up 'for the time being'. In my opinion that is quite greyish for a pwBPD so I'm glad. Was a bit afraid he would sabotage my efforts to give him another chance in the long run, by telling others we ended completely.

How did this information become available to you?

Hurt and sadness is part of the deal when changing up our lives

[ziniztar]

Formflier, I went to my brother and had a great sleep over there .

Phoebe, his brother and sister contacted me to check how I was doing.

[ziniztar]

I'm sure you already know this but it was such a great piece of advice from my T that I have to say it: we can only have "hope" in the things we can change about ourselves, anything else is just wishful thinking. (about hoping he finds his motivation.)

Actually, I didn't know. Thanks for pointing this out. I know I have to also keep the scenario in my head where he stays stuck and is not able to turn things around. Again I do think it's good he's explaining it to people this way. I let him know we can still be in contact and discuss stuff, but that some things should change if we want to call this a relationship again. He knows I've done my part of the change, now it's his turn.

I'll go exercise tonight, have a few meetings with friends, a nice family weekend planned, a T session... .that should get me going . It's still really really hard though. I care for him and I hope for him he is able to turn things around as I know he really wants to. I know that I will survive either way.

[formflier]

  I care for him and I hope for him he is able to turn things around as I know he really wants to. I know that I will survive either way.

Zin,

Part of "growing up"... .and "growing" in general is that you will hopefully gain wisdom.  The process of gaining that is not always easy... .but with the perspective of time... .it is rare to find someone that isn't glad that they haven't gained more wisdom.

This will play out well in your own life... .and also in the lives of others that you care about.

Keep up the good work... .!

[ziniztar]

Part of "growing up"... .and "growing" in general is that you will hopefully gain wisdom.  The process of gaining that is not always easy... .but with the perspective of time... .it is rare to find someone that isn't glad that they haven't gained more wisdom.

Yeah... but don't you also have those days as well where you feel like it's unfair that some have to deal with this stuff because of early life circumstances, and others don't? I always know I want the change - and I will- because of the reason you mention (you're always happier with the wisdom than you were without). But today I am a tiny winy little bit sick   of all the pain I that is necessary before getting close to something more "normal". I know that if I don't change this now, I will get into a similar pattern with a future bf and I don't want that anymore. But it feels like a band aid burned into my heart that is slowly being pulled off  :'(.

[DreamFlyer99]

Ziniztar,

you've got the best thought going about learning all this now so you don't carry it into your future. Wise!

I'm a little relieved you didn't know about the "hope" thing, I generally assume everyone else got to these nuggets of wisdom long before I understood them... .i'm a really slow learner!

I had the total "OH" dumbstruck face when my T told me that about hope. I was always "hoping" this or that would change with my uBPDh... .then finally my T dropped that heavy nugget on me. WOW. That does change things... .

[formflier]

Ziniztar,

you've got the best thought going about learning all this now so you don't carry it into your future. Wise!

I'm a little relieved you didn't know about the "hope" thing, I generally assume everyone else got to these nuggets of wisdom long before I understood them... .i'm a really slow learner!

I had the total "OH" dumbstruck face when my T told me that about hope. I was always "hoping" this or that would change with my uBPDh... .then finally my T dropped that heavy nugget on me. WOW. That does change things... .

Dream Flyer99,

I think that nugget of wisdom might be a good thread on its own.

Is there a back story to it?  Encourage you to put that out there for discussion in a new thread.

[DreamFlyer99]

Formflier--

there was a thread out there once about it, maybe I can find it, and if not start a new one.

thanks.

Ziniztar, the thing you said about caring about your bf and wanting him to do better for himself? that's how I feel about my uBPDh too. I was always trying to make him happy, and it took me decades to figure out that wasn't my job. And I would like the same thing for him, whether it's with me or without. I get that too... .

Hope you're doing okay. 

[ziniztar]

Ziniztar, the thing you said about caring about your bf and wanting him to do better for himself? that's how I feel about my uBPDh too. I was always trying to make him happy, and it took me decades to figure out that wasn't my job. And I would like the same thing for him, whether it's with me or without. I get that too... .

Hope you're doing okay. 

Hey,

I understand this now, I can see it's not my job to make him happy. I guess that's the big break through I've had in the past couple of weeks. Why I did actually change the Spotify password. I had wanted to split the accounts for a long time because it annoyed the hell out of me, but I didn't because I was occupied what it would do to him.  Why I did pack my stuff and told him he could pick up his. I was afraid me quitting things would send him into the deepest low one can think of. He mentioned a few times ‘If I can’t hold a relationship with you, then I can’t do it with anyone.” Now I realize this is probably what needed to happen.

I care for him and wish him the best. I know how much he is working on this, I’ve seen him growing from getting hurt when I mentioned BPD (whilst it was already diagnosed!) to actively calling it his own illness.

I’m struggling with thinking about when to contact him. I know I shouldn’t in these first few days because this is where I should calm down and get physically un-enmeshed. It always takes 2 to 3 days and then I feel quite like an individual again. But then? Should I – for the sake of it -  wait until he makes a first move towards me? Should it always be like that? That would drain all my energy out of me. It’s so difficult to ‘follow your heart’ when you also know that your heart is a little ill and that always following it will lead to you to more sorrow and aloneness.

For now I’ve decided that some contact is okay – I really want to know how he is doing and wish we could keep connected in some way. But he is the one that should suggest to see each other again. I’m not going to do that. Thinking of it actually makes me feel sick of myself, trying to mend things with someone who is not capable of mending. It’s like beating a dead horse, although in this case the horse is not dead, quite willing to get up actually, and doing everything it can to get up... but his legs are not strong enough yet.

The scary things is: I have no idea how long this is going to take. I’ve even looked the Dutch word ‘for the time being’ up to get an idea of what he could mean with it, as that is what he sent to his relatives about our break up. Kinda like discussing the difference between ‘two, a pair, some, a couple’. I’ve known for a long time I am anxious-obsessively attached (as supposed to anxious-avoidant, avoidant all over or healthy). I think the obsessiveness is in trying to figure out what he thinks of the r/s, what he is going to do, him him him him him. I’m slowly turning things around to me me me me me me me which he didn’t really like. I think we need this period of adjustment in order to potentially get to a new we we we we we. Or, more healthy and interdependent: he me we he me we he me we.

So, yeah, I am doing ok. Had a nice bath yesterday and went to bed early, took good care of myself. I've even instructed some friends that I'd like to go to the movies with them in stead of endlessly discussing my feelings, thoughts and r/s b/s. I always thought that was a good thing but I'm realizing that's obsession too and it would be healthier to step a way from that. So. Maybe a good point to start focusing on others (newbies ) on this board as well.   

[ziniztar]

Today I realize he can also flip to someone else in a few weeks. We talked a little yesterday, about us both being very hurt. In the evening he asked me if I was still awake and if we could talk, so he called. When it took him 10 minutes to actually call I checked in with him and he said: "yeah give me a minute... need to build up some courage".

He said he was really really really sorry about what had all happened. That he had prepared so much and now wasn't able to say it all.

I feel better because my 'connection' has been established... but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

[formflier]

So, yeah, I am doing ok. Had a nice bath yesterday and went to bed early, took good care of myself. I've even instructed some friends that I'd like to go to the movies with them in stead of endlessly discussing my feelings, thoughts and r/s b/s. 

 

[ziniztar]

but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

I think this is one of my core issues. I never had a real feeling of safety as my father would always get incredibly mad over something incredibly stupid. There was always something we did wrong, or that was not good enough, that we had forgotten... I remember playing at home (alone or with my brother) and feeling flashes of fear whenever my father would get home from work. Had we done everything he asked, did I leave any toys lying around, did I do anything wrong? Do I have time to fix it before he enters the house?

That feelings of calmness, warmth, safety that I felt when he WAS NOT around... always felt finite, with another outburst luring around the corner. The sentence "get out of my way" is the one I heard the most, when it should have been "I love you."

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

Will discuss this with T on Monday... I think it's a big part of why -even when we have split up- I still feel anxious about things falling apart. His online status on whatsapp can even trigger thoughts like 'what b/s that I think we're doing better and he really means what he is saying, he's texting someone else right now and this will be over in a few weeks'. That does not really give him a lot of credit either.

I guess I try to predict the future in order to prevent a false feeling of safety. Which in the end means I have a core belief that I am not safe, or welcome.

Does anyone recognize this?

[123Phoebe]

Sounds like you're digging deep for answers and asking a lot of really good questions of yourself.

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

I can recognize this (in myself) for sure.  Can you recognize yourself in this description of your Dad?

When I put a few things down in writing about my Mom... .Oh my!  And it made sense   I was raised by her, it's no wonder some of her characteristics rubbed off on me in intimate relationships (and beyond... .).

 

I own my very own fog machine!  It's tucked away in the closet for now

[ziniztar]

Sounds like you're digging deep for answers and asking a lot of really good questions of yourself.

And then there were the times where he got very happy if we'd do things his way, and sad and disappointed if we didn't.

Can you recognize yourself in this description of your Dad?

Harrrrr yes I do. I totally get it. I've had this mirror before when it got to 'being too late' at appointments, which my father always was.

I really tried to change things today. I asked a question (as in engulfment topic), he rang. Called over 1,5 hours and it was a nice, quiet, two-way conversation with a lot of honesty and respect. What I find the hardest part is to deal with him being really negative "I am not going to change.", that sets me into a panic state: I don't believe people can change if they don't believe they can, so if he believes he can't he won't and I should quit now? And yet he keeps dragging himself to the damn T every time, he even scheduled multiple additional calls this week. Is this a case 'actions speak louder than words'?

He asked me to write down what I expect from our r/s in the future, and also what the road towards there would look like. That's as far as he had gotten. What I think is interesting is that words like 'sometimes'  and 'maybe' are becoming part of his vocabulary. I asked him if he wanted to call tonight and he said 'I did it because you texted.' So I explained I'd like us to be honest to each other, and he said: 'Ok, in that case, just leave me a little until Sunday.' Which I of course find really hard, and I can't really hide my disappointment yet (I tend to become very silent whereas I usually have answers) but he knows I am willing to change this. I told him I was a bit scared about that but will do, and he even explained to me how busy his upcoming days will be. ':)id I take away your fear a little bit?'  

I think that was nice. So I told him I thought it was nice of him to do that, but that it's also something I will have to deal with myself.

Interesting talk.

Let's see what happens next.

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

[formflier]

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

zin,

I'm so glad that you used the word values... .  Rather than telling him exactly what to do. One of the great things about having a partner honor your values in a r/s is that when you see their actions and then understand how they decided on those actions... when thinking about honoring your value system.

My wife and I recently did this.

My values that I told my wife I wanted were Love, Gentleness, Kindness and Empathy

In my wife's letter to me she said she wanted

Truth, Trust, Love and Emotional and Physical Faithfulness


Hope this helps... .

[DreamFlyer99]

but I always wonder whether my feeling of safety is false.

OH this has been me! I am not there yet, but in working on a trauma workbook with my T i'm seeing that the sense of safety is something I will learn to carry within myself as my boundaries become clearer... .

[Moselle]

Can anyone help me with lists of r/s values that have worked for them?

Ziniztar, I think values should be clarified in any relationship, but you might consider being more specific about behaviours too.

As far as I'm concerned, my marriage died 7 months ago, I've mourned it and it is gone for me. It needed a complete overhaul, so I have told my wife what I want with a list of From-To's. From: behaviours of the old marriage, To: what I want in my future relationship with my spouse. This way I'm specific about what I want, and it respects her choice to be a participant in that or to say "No thanks". I have accepted that she might opt out, but I have told her I will not compromise on what I want. I don't expect perfection and I have not put a timeline on it (I'm also internally being realistic about what a BPD NPD is capable of), but it was actually very therapeutic to define what I want.

Can I suggest a few From-To's like:

From: Using my Spotify account

To: Showing me respect by not abusing the access I gave you (I assume that's the real issue. Respect? )

Or From: Open conflict

To: If there's a problem, we solve it amicably.

I spent 4 days on my From-To's last week. If you'd like to use it, let me know and I'll private msg it to you.

[ziniztar]

the sense of safety is something I will learn to carry within myself as my boundaries become clearer... .

I guess it makes sense; you feel unsafe because you feel like you need the other person to set your boundaries because you don't have them yourself, meaning you have no foundation. Things are always unstable then. If you no longer need the other person you can create a solid ground, more stable, which feels safer. Hmm.

I spent 4 days on my From-To's last week. If you'd like to use it, let me know and I'll private msg it to you.

Yes I would like that ... .

[DreamFlyer99]

If you no longer need the other person you can create a solid ground, more stable, which feels safer. Hmm.

Oh! Beautifully stated! That even clarifies it for me!

[ziniztar]

Ok, so... .had the worst day I could think of yesterday. Started crying when I woke up, got to work, stressfull day there, then went back home and the minute I exited the building the tears came up again. That repeated this morning.

He asked me to not be in contact until Sunday as he was really busy and contact is difficult for him. I told him I would honor that but I feel so incredibly alone. It never works when people tell me that I can't contact them, I think it's potentially the biggest emotional abandonment I can think of. In the end he told me 'do what you want' (in a nice not saracstic way) and I told him I would contact him if I paniced...

Today I demanded (yes, demanded) that we stay exclusive until we know how to go further. That we can also decide not to continue together, but that I deserve the respect (until then) to not have to think that he is lying in bed with other people. It's the only thing I couldn't be "nice" about and ask. Then I said I'd really like to go out for dinner together on my bDay in a few weeks, drink a lot, and discuss things. I said him I will give a list of values on Monday after discussing with my T, but that it won't be 'I expect we see each other twice a week.' That I don't want to have expectations anymore, that I'd like him to do things because he wants to, not because I want him to. The exclusivity being the only exception to the rule. That we'll need to decide what I want and what he wants, and if there are discrepancies between that, we'll have to calmly discuss what to do about it. When I start thinking of lining up expectations I feel annoyed, anxious and  nauseous. Yesterday I tried making a nice 'from to' list, or a list with values, and it only resulted in me crying even harder, losing faith that he will ever be able to grow into a mature adult... and also recognizing that with my issues, I would really benefit from a mature adult and that dBPDbf and me probably are only worsening each other. That hurt a lot.

I have no idea what his response is yet, left my phone at home. In all honesty I don't see it working anymore. He is discussing owning a business this weekend. The only thing I see is that he'll be working 7 days a week, with no time or willingness to be with me.

I feel like this is going to end.

[formflier]

 

   

The work you are doing is hard... .and emotional... .and I'm convinced  that it is good for you in the long run.

Remember when you are working on these lists of values that they are for you... .not him.  You will be the one living them out... .you will be the communicating these values to other people...

Keep it up... .!


 

[123Phoebe]

Today I demanded (yes, demanded) that we stay exclusive until we know how to go further. That we can also decide not to continue together, but that I deserve the respect (until then) to not have to think that he is lying in bed with other people. It's the only thing I couldn't be "nice" about and ask. Then I said I'd really like to go out for dinner together on my bDay in a few weeks, drink a lot, and discuss things.

He can't do this for you, to ease your mind, that's your job to take care of   Your panic is not his issue.  I don't see how beating him up about it, demanding anything, will bring you closer.  

Drinking a lot and discussing things is never a good idea, they do not go hand in hand.

This is tough stuff, no doubt.

I feel like this is going to end.

Can you forgive him or is it too soon?  Does this in between feel healthy and good?

  

[Moselle]

Ok, so... .had the worst day I could think of yesterday. Started crying when I woke up, got to work, stressfull day there, then went back home and the minute I exited the building the tears came up again. That repeated this morning.

I have no idea what his response is yet, left my phone at home. In all honesty I don't see it working anymore. He is discussing owning a business this weekend. The only thing I see is that he'll be working 7 days a week, with no time or willingness to be with me.

I feel like this is going to end.

A day is a long time in a BPD relationship. That is: alot can happen and we can have emotional swings and roundabouts. Then things can revert to normal as well.

You must be really sore to think this is going to end. Hang in there!

Perhaps he's just also hurting, and wants to fill his time with something which is constructive - a business. He might also be trying to work hard to try and support a relationship. Just challenging your perceptions a little bit.

[ziniztar]

It seems as though I can't forgive him. My own abandonment fears and subseqent panic-anger cycle is cycling through the roof. My point is: I understand my panic is not his responsability, I understand he is probably trying to get stronger and more self-sufficient. I understand all that.

What I can't expect from myself nor him is that now we know what is wrong, we can change it instantly. I can't change my neediness, anger or panic overnight. He can't change his intimacy and emotional regulation issues overnight.

One of the strategies of an anxiously attached person is "next time I'll try a little harder". So I was noticing I was trying to perfect my response to his request for expectations. Discussing it here, searching on the internet, discussing it with T, asking him for advice so I could come well prepared. It's allmost as if I am trying a little too hard to be perfect again, not wanting to loose the option we still have to stay together.

Well, why would I want that? He is someone who will constantly trigger my fears, making my own needed recovery a lot more complicated. I got extremely mad at his request to lay low until Sunday because he needed it. What about what I need? YOU broke something. Why don't you ask 'hey girl, sorry I did that, what can I do to make this up? I need some space, how can I make that less painful for you?' Knowing we both are in recovery I think we should support each other. I should not expect I can be perfect at once, so if he does not react well to my demand of us being exclusive, I'm ok with it ending. I need someone to be supportive of my own journey, someone who is not affected by all this. Some room to be imperfect while working on my issues, without immediately triggering them again. I've had a r/s like that between 18 and 21, and the more I think about it the more I long the peace and calmness related to that r/s. If he can't deal with me right now, we can't deal with each other because my motivation to support him through his journey has dropped below zero after he cheated. I didn't deserve that.

[ziniztar]

Well, he didn't respond to the messages. That could be good. I like that. He is taking his space and giving it time, instead of getting mad at me for texting him (opposing distance) or saying 'yes okay I will do that' while I know he doesn't mean it.

This potentially could work. Let's see what happens during the weekend.

[Moselle]

This potentially could work. Let's see what happens during the weekend.

Well done. It looks like today's going better for you. Hope you have a peaceful weekend with all of this.

[Rapt Reader]

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