BPD SO's in recovery

[ziniztar]

As most of you know my dBPDbf is in recovery. We split up last weekend for the time being, to give each other some space. And oh yes, because he cheated.

Who has a BPD SO in recovery as well? How do you handle their progress, their setbacks? What kind of treatment are they getting?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

Mine has been in "recovery" since she was 16.  That's 22 years of various therapies, medications, and hospitalizations.  I've now known her a little over a year and a half.  So what is she doing now?  EMDR therapy, group trauma therapy, two medications, and a 12-step program.  Admittedly, she has fallen out with the 12-step program in recent weeks.

So what do I do?  I try to not have any expectations, try not to put any pressure, and let her mental health be her business.  That means no ultimatums, no "I think you should do this... .", nothing that she can throw back at me as an accusation of me controlling her.  I do my best to have patience, and try to utilize my free time wisely so that I have more energy for her in the evenings and on weekends.  I try to avoid having 'milestones" as in "I need to see this from her by a certain date."  The reality here is that if I put any expectations on her, she is guaranteed not to meet those expectations and that means I might as well discontinue the relationship.  The real keys here are patience, learning to deal with our own issues, and living in today, not the past or the future.

[MissyM]

My dBPDh is in recovery, he is working sex addiction recovery but also has had drug addiction and work addiction problems.  Our arrangement is a little different than what the previous poster replied.  My dBPDh has a recovery plan, that I was given and asked for my input.  I am aware of what his recovery work is, I do not try to manage it but being secretive about it is considered unhealthy behavior in sex addiction recovery.  I do my own codependency recovery work, go to step study, therapy and group therapy.  He has a similar schedule and talks to his sponsor daily.  If you have split up for a while, I would take the time to go to alanon and get into therapy.  Support in getting through this is really beneficial.

[Moselle]

3 Days ago my wife went from uBPDw to dBPD/NPDw.

She opened up for the first time that she has both BPD and NPD, and mentioned that she has been doing CBT. So I'm very interested in people's responses in this thread.

I sent her a list of From To's, without putting a time frame or who needs to do the work.

eg From: "Conflict", To: "Problem solving. If there’s a problem, we’ll solve it amicably."

From: "Victim mentality", To: "Acceptance, Self Responsibility"

She said she is excited to work on this with me, and on her own accord, she has offered to read the book "Conflict couples" which uses DBT (Dialectic Behaviour Therapy), and lead us through the excercises.

I'm still pinching myself because she has been raging for 6 months (we've been separated for 7 months), and wondering if this is real, or mirrored. How can I tell? At the moment I'm just going with it and trying to build positive momentum with her.

[ziniztar]

Hmmm... so I hear:

- different treatment schedules, there is no one way ... .I think it depends on the adapted coping mechanisms.

- keep expectations low

- expressing a road to a healthier relationship

MissyM, I did get into therapy a few weeks ago. It helps a lot, and I have at least 10 more sessions before I have to start paying for them... so there is room, and I already learnt so much after 4. How are you doing yourself?

Moselle, when did your wife get the diagnosis? Is she diagnosed last week or has she known for a long time and did she only recently share that knowledge with you?

I know my dBPDbf was very excited about treatment for a long time, as the idealization phase happens there as well. He's discussing quitting treatment now (I know he probably will not end it, as he's been through this cycle before). He's not that happy about it anymore as he feels he's stuck and it's not working for him. That initiates a lot of fear in me because I know I wouldn't want to stay with him if he quit... and that would mean me ending the r/s. Well, now it doesn't matter at all anymore.

What I like is to look at him as a good friend. Keep a safe distance, when it comes to what you expect from him/her. If a friend would have a set back you wouldn't panic either. It helps me to think this way.

[Moselle]

Moselle, when did your wife get the diagnosis? Is she diagnosed last week or has she known for a long time and did she only recently share that knowledge with you?

It's hard to tell. She told me in January that she thought she was BPD (that was when I googled and found bpdfamily for the first time). But then we separated and she raged for along time - 6 months. She told me she only went to therapy to please me and I promptly stopped paying for it. When I raised BPD again, she screamed "stop diagnosing me".

A few months later she told me she was back in therapy, and I know I'm not paying for it, so I didn't ask too many questions. Then she asked me to contact her therapist to give my side of the story, which I've not done. I'm in a stage where her stuff is her stuff and I don't really want to get involved.

Then she apologised for some stuff the other night, and admitted being diagnosed with BP and NP by her psychiatrist. I stuck it in an email and sent it off to her LOL, saying "thanks for sharing that with me".

Today she was back to "stop diagnosing me", but admitted she has both.

I'm trying to be quite aloof with it. I've noticed if I don't show too much interest she actually does better. I guess because she feels in control of it. So I said "I don't give a hoot if you have BP, NP or the plague, I just want to know what it means for you and what it means for me and the children. Can you tell me?". I'm trying to get her to understand the implications of the disease for me and others. So it's more about behaviours than a label, but she blew me off.

I love that quote in one of your other posts "We can only have hope in the things we can change about ourselves, the rest is wishful thinking". I'm trying to apply that here and not hope for too much, but get really busy with my own stuff. Particularly co-dep/caretaking

[MissyM]

I  know my dBPDbf was very excited about treatment for a long time, as the idealization phase happens there as well. He's discussing quitting treatment now (I know he probably will not end it, as he's been through this cycle before). He's not that happy about it anymore as he feels he's stuck and it's not working for him. That initiates a lot of fear in me because I know I wouldn't want to stay with him if he quit... and that would mean me ending the r/s. Well, now it doesn't matter at all anymore.

We actually discussed this in marital DBT today.  Many BPDs have no stress tolerance and hit the road when it gets to the hard work. This is also true in addiction, when people get to the 4th step they run.  All I can do is be supportive while my dBPDh works through all of this.  We talked about some ways that I could support him, he couldn't come up with any himself and the therapist had to recommend some things and let him pick.  I really can't say enough how having a DBT marital therapist has helped.  She is able to handle my dBPDh in a way that I have never seen and is able to get us both to have a team attitude.

[Indyan]

The reality here is that if I put any expectations on her, she is guaranteed not to meet those expectations and that means I might as well discontinue the relationship.  The real keys here are patience, learning to deal with our own issues, and living in today, not the past or the future.

Wow, so much wisdom in your talking.

[Indyan]

I'm trying to be quite aloof with it. I've noticed if I don't show too much interest she actually does better. I guess because she feels in control of it. So I said "I don't give a hoot if you have BP, NP or the plague, I just want to know what it means for you and what it means for me and the children. Can you tell me?". I'm trying to get her to understand the implications of the disease for me and others.

That makes a lot of sense to me. At least, that was what I thought a few weeks ago... .but now I'm not sure anymore... .he's gone to crazy.

Has you wife ever had any "major crisis"? I mean what's been her worst behaviour?

[Moselle]

I'm trying to be quite aloof with it. I've noticed if I don't show too much interest she actually does better. I guess because she feels in control of it. So I said "I don't give a hoot if you have BP, NP or the plague, I just want to know what it means for you and what it means for me and the children. Can you tell me?". I'm trying to get her to understand the implications of the disease for me and others.

That makes a lot of sense to me. At least, that was what I thought a few weeks ago... .but now I'm not sure anymore... .he's gone to crazy.

Has you wife ever had any "major crisis"? I mean what's been her worst behaviour?

Twice, she has gone bezerk for a period of months. Both precipitated by  uncertainty career changes of mine. The first was 4 years ago, the second 7 months ago. She started screaming at everyone, me kids. She started hitting and kicking me, swearing and throwing things, going to bed for 3 to 4 days at a time. Day in day out for weeks and months. The first time I left the country, the second time, I left the city.

The first time I said "it's divorce or therapy". She chose therapy but did nothing to change really, and I had no idea about my role in it as co-dep, or BPD NPD.

This time I know about all that fun stuff :-) it's been 7 months

[Indyan]

How about the kids when you left? I mean who took care of them?

Does she feel a tiny little bit grateful for your patience?

LOL what a question! I guess she might even feel resentful .

You say she's in recovery but your profile shows "undecided", how come?

[Moselle]

How about the kids when you left? I mean who took care of them?

Does she feel a tiny little bit grateful for your patience?

LOL what a question! I guess she might even feel resentful .

You say she's in recovery but your profile shows "undecided", how come?

She's actually extremely highly functioning and I think the NPD counteracts the debilitating part of the BPD. She gets the kids to school and gets everything done, so I don't worry that way. What I am concerned about is their emotional welfare, so I speak to each of them individually on the phone twice a day, and once every two days or so on skype. W resisted all of this communication of course but I just persisted and persisted and persisted, and now she actually appreciates the value of it.

Her awareness is so brand new, I'm not sure what to make of it. She already had a relapse saying it's actually me with BP and NP :-) but I guess the evidence is stacking up and perhaps  she realises that if things don't change I'm outta here. I don't think there's a lot of concern for me in that, but she's had a taste of life on her own, and a money, sperm and time donor is something to be kept around.

That kind of answers your next question.  Why am I undecided? Well I don't like being a convenient piece of meat. I've decided I want to be nurtured, respected and loved by my mate. I'm not willing to compromise on that. I just want it and I'm happy to give what I need to on my side to have it.

[Indyan]

She's actually extremely highly functioning and I think the NPD counteracts the debilitating part of the BPD.

I'm very intrigued as I thought that NPs were "the bad guys out there". Today, I saw a therapist (THE director of THE BPD association in my country) and he said (among lots of other fascinating things) that, according to all I told him, not only my uBPDbf had PBD (at last!) but also "some" NPD.

And freaked me out. What does it mean for real? That he manipulates me for his own interest?

[Moselle]

Look I'm no expert on this but my W does not lose executive function like a classic. BPD. I assume the NPD kicks in at a certain stage, and says, "Hang on, you're incredible, keep going".

She is actually an extremely capable and talented woman.

Prone to spouse abuse though. That's not so kosher

[MissyM]

My dBPDh also has NPD traits.  He would also be classified as "high functioning" BPD, Ivy league educated and somewhat successful.  Think the NPD traits are what have pushed him further, of course he isn't nearly as successful as he could be  because with the BPD he sabotages himself when things go too well.

[Moselle]

My dBPDh also has NPD traits.  He would also be classified as "high functioning" BPD, Ivy league educated and somewhat successful.  Think the NPD traits are what have pushed him further, of course he isn't nearly as successful as he could be  because with the BPD he sabotages himself when things go too well.

That's interesting. Nice to see that correlated with someone else's experience. Do you get blamed much?

It's taken 14 years for the BPD NPD to reach it's full acidic bloom. I see yours is diagnosed. Is he open to treatment? Has he shown any progress since diagnosis?

[Indyan]

My dBPDh also has NPD traits.  He would also be classified as "high functioning" BPD, Ivy league educated and somewhat successful.  Think the NPD traits are what have pushed him further, of course he isn't nearly as successful as he could be  because with the BPD he sabotages himself when things go too well.

I get the bit on the professional side of things. But on a relationship level, does it make them evil?

I feel my PBDbf is not acting spontaneously (it's been this way for 2 or 3 months now and I hate this), and I keep wondering what on earth he can be hinding from me, or what behaviour is trying to induce in me.

For example tonight (he's away at his parents, as I've often mentionned) I texted him about my therapy session today, of which I was very enthousiastic. And I told him the neighbour gave some veggies from her garden. He chose to only reply to the second part ("say thanks to her from me", as if to say "I don't share your enthousiasm about therapy".

I feel he's constantly trying to hurt me on some level. But if I mention something (like "seems I'm bothering you with this subject), then he turns it against me ("what have I done - or not done- again?"

[MissyM]

That's interesting. Nice to see that correlated with someone else's experience. Do you get blamed much?

It's taken 14 years for the BPD NPD to reach it's full acidic bloom. I see yours is diagnosed. Is he open to treatment? Has he shown any progress since diagnosis?

He has blamed me for everything in the past. He is in treatment and is responding.  He is also in recovery.  All of this is requiring that he deal with his behaviors and the shame he feels from them.  Shame is a huge issue for BPDs and for addicts.  He has ups and downs but is generally heading upward.  Things are usually 2 steps forward, 1 step back.  He is an intelligent guy and can be loving.  Hoping that things continue to improve.

[MissyM]

I get the bit on the professional side of things. But on a relationship level, does it make them evil?

  Well, at times I have thought that!  LOL.  However, it is more that he has been incredibly immature and selfish.  That is improving as he gets better.  I am hopeful, at this point.

[vortex of confusion]

We actually discussed this in marital DBT today.  Many BPDs have no stress tolerance and hit the road when it gets to the hard work. This is also true in addiction, when people get to the 4th step they run.  All I can do is be supportive while my dBPDh works through all of this.  We talked about some ways that I could support him, he couldn't come up with any himself and the therapist had to recommend some things and let him pick.  I really can't say enough how having a DBT marital therapist has helped.  She is able to handle my dBPDh in a way that I have never seen and is able to get us both to have a team attitude.

That is really good to know. My husband has been on step 4 for quite some time now. When I ask him how I can support him,  he has no clue. When I ask him anything about anything dealing with his recovery, I get really vague answers like, "I am taking it one day at a time." Or, "I am doing really well. I think I have made a lot of progress." My perception of things is very different than his but I am starting to realize how normal that is.

[MissyM]

That is really good to know. My husband has been on step 4 for quite some time now. When I ask him how I can support him,  he has no clue. When I ask him anything about anything dealing with his recovery, I get really vague answers like, "I am taking it one day at a time." Or, "I am doing really well. I think I have made a lot of progress." My perception of things is very different than his but I am starting to realize how normal that is.

That is how my dBPDh was in recovery last year, then we ended up having a big blow up and separated.  He went into  relapse, not as bad as his previous addiction behavior but still a relapse.   Once he was diagnosed with BPD and NPD traits, then started a different therapy approach, and now he is truly in recovery and able to talk about it.  He started recovery 3 years ago but has only truly been engaged the last 5 months.  I hear many people say it took 2-3 years for their SA husbands to get truly into recovery not just sobriety.  Not sure if those are all the ones that have PDs or not.  They can recover, it just takes a lot of work.

[Moselle]

That is how my dBPDh was in recovery last year, then we ended up having a big blow up and separated.  He went into  relapse, not as bad as his previous addiction behavior but still a relapse.   Once he was diagnosed with BPD and NPD traits, then started a different therapy approach, and now he is truly in recovery and able to talk about it.  He started recovery 3 years ago but has only truly been engaged the last 5 months.  I hear many people say it took 2-3 years for their SA husbands to get truly into recovery not just sobriety.  Not sure if those are all the ones that have PDs or not.  They can recover, it just takes a lot of work.

That sounds familiar!

What new treatment regime is he busy with? Mine has had hit or miss therapy for 4 years, but only strated taking it seriously when I walked out and stopped paying for it.

I've got a crucial week ahead. I'm back with the family, and I'm determined to start a new way of living and test if she is serious... I think it's a crucial watershed for me. She has the choice to come along or relapse.

I think I can hold it for a year all by myself.

Has anyone ever "scheduled" a separation for 1 years time to do a health check and see if the new patterns have stuck and to get some BPD  Rest n Recovery

[ziniztar]

I've got a crucial week ahead. I'm back with the family, and I'm determined to start a new way of living and test if she is serious... I think it's a crucial watershed for me. She has the choice to come along or relapse.

Good luck Moselle, I'm voting for you.

My dBPDbf has been in therapy each week for 1,5 years and he's been pretty consistent in going there. I expect whatever the hell is happening right now are relapses. I remember he turned around the day after I thought 'hey this kinda feels like a normal relationship now'. His parents had commented the week before we were doing so well and making nice grown-up decisions. Perhaps it was all too good too soon. That can invoke fears of abandonment again from a thought pattern 'I'f I'm doing too good these people will leave and I have nothing to fall back on anymore'.

[Indyan]

Ziniztar, I don't get it. He goes to therapy every week and looks "healed" and your status shows are "undecided" about staying with him?

[MissyM]

What new treatment regime is he busy with? Mine has had hit or miss therapy for 4 years, but only strated taking it seriously when I walked out and stopped paying for it.

His CSAT (certified sex addict therapist) is now treating him as BPD and NPD, with some trauma work and CBT, weekly.  He started attending a different 12 step group (2 times a week) and got a new sponsor, that is really a good relationship for him. He attends group therapy weekly.  We started marital DBT together, weekly.  And last but not least, he has gotten on a new antidepressant.  These are a lot of changes but they seem to be working.  He has had some small slips but is generally getting better.

[ziniztar]

Ziniztar, I don't get it. He goes to therapy every week and looks "healed" and your status shows are "undecided" about staying with him?

Yeah I could see why this amazes you. However, he turned very depressed after that wondeful month of June and ended up cheating on me a few weeks ago. So even though this is all part of a bigger plan of recovery, in order for us to proceed I had to act. So we split up for the time being, he knew this was my biggest fear/boundary and he crossed it.

I had him on the phone yesterday, and he said he now realized he is very ill. He called BPD his illness before but I think it really got to him this time. He's doing stuff for me I value (call once in a while, he's taking me out to dinner on my birthday that is coming up, he even said I could still use his car if I needed to (we shared it), but that he also realizes he needs a lot of time. Him calling me yesterday was 'quite a thing for him', I think because of the shame and guilt. Previously he would have cut off contact completely because he couldn't handle it. So even though it is small for me, I see why this is a big step for him. In the meantime this is a very good time for me to demesh and get back to my old self again.

And, Undecided, because I want to Stay but not at all cost, and it now depends on his commitment to grow and work through things, if I will actually stay...

[Indyan]

Yes, I am in the same situation sort of. Except that he's just starting therapy, staying at his parents and we have a baby.

What you say about him realising how "ill" he is is very interesting. My bf has been in deny for weeks and weeks (he did admit having "a big problem" in the past), saying that "everyone has problems" and all that rubbish. I decided to see THE big specialist in BPD, and now he said he's going to see him. Which means he  will normally hear from the therapist's mouth that he's "ill", and what to do about it, and that it doesn't mean "crazy" etc.

I think they KNOW deep inside there going wrong, it's just too hard to admit it. And they have no idea as to what to do to repair their mistakes, but might accept to do anything we propose.

Long is the road... .

Good luck with your BPD. Are you married?

[ziniztar]

How old is your baby? And how long have you two been together? I’m happy for you he has started therapy, although I have to say: it’s not a straight line up. There will be relapses you think you can imagine and prepare for, but then you can’t, otherwise it wouldn’t be a total relapse.

What you say about him realising how "ill" he is is very interesting. My bf has been in deny for weeks and weeks (he did admit having "a big problem" in the past), saying that "everyone has problems" and all that rubbish.

The thing is, and this comes and falls with the ups and downs of recovery... we started dating when he was in therapy for about 3 months. He told it to me on the 3rd date and then later mentioned his T was very proud of him that he was so open about it. I now see that him telling me this, never meant that he had actually accepted the diagnosis and really understood the severity of it. He was very disconnected at the time. When I tried to talk about it with him, he cringed when he hear the B-word and said it hurt him a lot. So I stopped doing that, until he started talking about ‘my borderline’ and later on even ‘my illness’. Now, he seems to internalize it by saying he is ill.

About the progress: when he met me he was in therapy for a few months. Was alone the first months, got stronger (duh he wasn’t in a r/s), met me, got happy all white-idealizationphase-style. So he also thought therapy was going very well. By that time he didn’t really understand yet how strong the pattern was. He had a bi-annual checklist in January and the results of his overall life quality were higher than 6 months before. His T then mentioned “be aware that you are very in love with your bf now”. I assume he did not expect the set-back at all, as he was not aware of his pattern yet. And I know he cares for me a lot (apart from the black/white thinking) and that he never imagined he would have cheated on me... that was his realization that he is in fact ill, and does not control his actions. I know that the cheating was a form of acting out, probably searching for comfort at a time when I was distancing myself from him and a lot of his friends started doing the same as well. He had no net to fall back on.

I think they KNOW deep inside there going wrong, it's just too hard to admit it. And they have no idea as to what to do to repair their mistakes, but might accept to do anything we propose.

I think admitting it is difficult as it entails admitting bad behavior you’ve had for years, all of a sudden you have to re-assess all the fights you had when you thought you were completely right. I also think a) they have no idea what to do to repair their mistakes but b) when they know, they don’t trust their level of self-control to actually execute that new behavior. Which actually is correct.

Good luck with your BPD. Are you married?

Nope, only a year together, no kids. It’s one of the reasons I’m undecided, if this takes too much effort I’m out. But what is too much effort? I also value giving people a (2nd) chance to grow, and as long as he’s working his ass off, I am enclined to do the same. The only big fat lesson I had to learn is that I have to take good care of myself, which, in the end, gives him time and space to breathe and work on his own recovery.

[Indyan]

Nope, only a year together, no kids. It’s one of the reasons I’m undecided, if this takes too much effort I’m out. But what is too much effort? I also value giving people a (2nd) chance to grow, and as long as he’s working his ass off, I am enclined to do the same. The only big fat lesson I had to learn is that I have to take good care of myself, which, in the end, gives him time and space to breathe and work on his own recovery.

I learnt my lesson too! Been together for 2 years, baby is now 7 months (yes, everything went very fast).

I had to learn to be "selfish", to be capable of enjoying life with my kids (I also have a 10D) when he's in "crisis".

You're lucky he'd already begun his T when you met him, and that he was already diagnosed.

It took me about 1 year to figure out there was something wrong with him and find out about BPD on the net. And almost another year for him to start T and probably get professional diagnosis.

Although this is quick compared to some people who find out about thedisorder after years.

[ziniztar]

Well Moselle & BPD Family in general,

My dBPDbf asked to write down a list of expectations from a relationship. I used the characteristics of healthy relationships as a framework, and for each value I described a 'from' and 'to' state. Sometimes I used very explicit examples (in case of arguments), sometimes I stayed more vague.

I also let him know which ones I think are the first to be built up, before we can start calling this a r/s again, and I asked him what he would like in a r/s...

Sent it to my T and he told me he wanted to know where I got it from, he thought it was a really good way to list this . So, props for Moselle and BPD Family for the input...