Does the BPD develop a true self , when she is mirroring my I ?

[borderdude]

Quote from a site

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borderline dissociates from who he/she really

is based upon negative and painful experiences

usually associated with or resulting from

significant others upon who the borderline

is dependant as he/she is developing for his/her sense of self.

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Can I deduct from this that , when BPD is borrowing my self , or mirroring my I , (becomes me) , ... .that the BPD is developing a sense of self by her own ?

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[waverider]

Quote from a site

------------------------------------

borderline dissociates from who he/she really

is based upon negative and painful experiences

usually associated with or resulting from

significant others upon who the borderline

is dependant as he/she is developing for his/her sense of self.

---------------------------------------------

Can I deduct from this that , when BPD is borrowing my self , or mirroring my I , (becomes me) , ... .that the BPD is developing a sense of self by her own ?

No it is a delusion, or being like an "air guitarist" if you like. Living a dream/fantasy, but not really any substance to it, so it never really takes on a life of its own and fizzles out once the limitation and/or novelty is exhausted.

A true self may be inspired by someone else or a shared experience. A seed may be planted if you like but it then takes on a self sufficient life of its own. They will enjoy whatever interest/pursuit it is in question because they own it and direct it, rather than because they want to be on your team. A true self will always diverge in some way from the original source, it will not remain a clone (ie mirror)

[borderdude]

ok, so she is basically trapped in kind of "false self" , while in that state,  she is not able to develop her "true self", which is hidden somewhere?

I guess we all came with a sort of "true self" when er entered this world, understand that some burrows the self of others to avoid being in the "real state"?


just some thoughts , thanks for the answer.

[vortex of confusion]

ok, so she is basically trapped in kind of "false self" , while in that state,  she is not able to develop her "true self", which is hidden somewhere?

In my experience, there is no true self because the self is determined by external circumstances rather than by something internal. I don't think it is hidden. It simply doesn't exist. Even when they seem perfectly fine, they are still looking to others to mirror in order to figure out who they are.

I guess we all came with a sort of "true self" when er entered this world, understand that some burrows the self of others to avoid being in the "real state"?

To them, the borrowed selves are the real state. They don't really see the difference because their perception of reality is skewed.

Here is a thread on Mirroring: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0

And here is a thread about "Unstable Self Image" that might be helpful, there is a bit of discussion about the sense of self: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=58298.0

[maxsterling]

My feeling on this is that a lack of a sense of self is behind almost all BPD behaviors.  And I truly believe that it is something fundamentally different about the way the pwBPD's brain is wired, and different than just having a "poor self esteem". I think it is one of those things that is a bit abstract for us nons to think about or understand, because the lack of a true self is something we nons don't feel, because we have one.  I've posted on this before, but I think that pwBPD never "feel" who they really are, like us nons do (without realizing it).  So, the pwBPD is under constant anxiety because they don't have that feeling of comfort that comes with a sense of self.  And I don't think they can learn this, either, through mirroring or otherwise.  Sure, they may be able to learn how to manage their lives better if they mirror a strong well-adjusted person.  But the problem is they will always be looking to that person for what to do, the independent self image will never develop. 

Here are some things I have noticed about my fiancé that lead me to believe her whole self image is a mirror:

1)  She eats whatever I eat.  If I am eating something, she will want it too.  She won't order at a restaurant until she hears what I am ordering, and most of the time she will order the same thing. 

2) I've noticed that much of her mannerisms and phrases she uses in talking are borrowed from friends. She even remarked to a friend recently that she has been driving faster and more aggressively since spending more time with this friend.  I can tell who she has been talking to recently based upon the words and phrases she uses in conversation with me.

3) every thing she claims she likes to do I've never seen her do on her own.  I think much of the things she did in the past were mirroring friends' or boyfriends', interests, and none of which she carries now.  The other things she did on her own were for the purposes of "running away" or "finding" (doing something new not because she wanted to do it but because she didn't want to do what she had been doing).

4) She's a teacher, and while she has many good ideas, she tells me all of her ideas she took from other teachers.  When I visit her classroom, I may notice something that I think is a great idea and remark on it, and she will reveal that she has seen other teachers do the same thing. 

5) She asks me "Should I... .?" about a dozen times per day.  And most of the time it is about something that most people would not need to ask advice about.  Example: "Should I clean my closet today?"

I've come to acceptance that this is something about her that won't change.  The best I can hope for is that she will develop healthier habits so that she is not so dependent in familiar situations. 

[borderdude]

I always had a notion from my BPD , that she needed a reference person, for occupying her alter ego.

So if that person is out of existence, she must rapidly replace him with a new subject (new alter).

Example:

My ex's new boyfriend tries to get rid of her, hand has broken up with her several times , but she is not splitting him bad but frantically suck him in again, using all her "magic powers".

I deduct from this she might not have an alternative subject ready, so she can make the switch.

[MaybeSo]

Re: Does the BPD develop a true self , when she is mirroring my I ?

No.

She is mirroring you…which is copy cat of what your true self is ... .or your mask (if you are not in touch with your true self)…but it’s not HER true self.  

How could her true self be you? Or anyone for that matter. Her true self may incorporate certain parts of other, but her true self would be uniquely her.

Her true self isn’t anyone else.

She mirrors A LOT of people. None of them are HER.

Our true self is who we are at our core, and it’s unique from anyone else on the planet,  and it’s fostered and nurtured to grow and develop through acceptance and love and curiosity by our caregivers; a child’s true self is not a mirror of his parents self (though it may interject parts of the parent) it’s his own true self that a loving parent accepts and nurtures…that includes all parts of the self, not just the parts the parent finds narcissistically pleasing (mirroring)…. a loving parent welcomes a childs true self even if it has many different qualities that do not mirror the parent…and if that doesn’t happen in childhood, then the child develops a false self, and sometimes even a fractured self… and then the true self might be developed later in life by people like therapists or others who are acting in loco parentis (in place of parents) and are supporting the individuals authentic self to grow.  A loving partner could have a role in encouraging and supporting their loved one’s true self, but if it looks like a mirror image of their partner... .that’s not a true self!  A healthy couple is quite differentiated.  They are not mirrors of each other.

Also, developing a 'sense of self' in early childhood is dependent upon a child beginning to learn experientially that he can regulate his own emotional states, or affect regulation.  That experience of being capable of regulating affect (handle his own nervous systems arrousal) IS the experience that helps a child to start to feel separate from his caregivers (infants are not aware that they are a separate being from mother, they come into the world in a merged state, not aware of where they end and mother begins... .that’s a developmental task from birth to about 12 months +) , it’s through mom’s attending to the infants dysregulated states and helping to sooth through using her own nervous system and her ability to attune to the childs non verbal ques that assists the child in being soothed over and over until they slowly internalize her soothing and the infant will start to regulate themselves and start to feel separate from her once they do that... that’s how we start to get the “I, thou” experience…through our ability to self regulate after using our parent to help us over and over again.  If you never achieved affect regulation, if your parent was unable to sooth you, if your parent was a source of fear or anxiety instead of a source of affect regulation... .then you will not learn self soothing and will stay too long in dysregulated states that are too intense and lead to dissociative states... .and you will not have a solid sense of self as a result…you may not even feel embodied the way normal people feel embodied and you will not feel like a separate self…thus that sense of emptiness that plagues pwBPD, and not wanting to be alone, and not feeling real unless they are mirroring someone intensely…that’s infant developmental stuff….that’s a developmental arrest and dissociation.  Affect regulation leads to ‘sense of self’.  Affect regulation develops in a secure attachment environment…so you are right back to needing a loving safe caregiver who actually encourages and attends to all parts of a developing child’s beginning expressions of selfhood and by helping the infant to regulate their bodies emotional states first and foremost.  Affect regulation and seure attachment and sense of self are all connected.  

[Algae]

I really like this thread.  I'll even bookmark it for future reference.

My exBPDgf, always goes on Instagram and follows people with certain styles.  She'll then try to talk to them and become their best friends, thus replicating their entire style from hair color to how they talk.

She'll even copy people for approval by liking things she hates just to be accepted.  Shes dating someone now who LOVES disney, LOVES football, and LOVES church.  The week prior however... she told me she thought disney was for pedos; she told me football was lame and boring and she didnt even know the rules... and she also told me she doesnt believe in God.  But now she is pretending to LOVE all of that stuff.

I could go on with more stuff... but i just wanted to through in my 2 cents.

[Haye]

My feeling on this is that a lack of a sense of self is behind almost all BPD behaviors.  And I truly believe that it is something fundamentally different about the way the pwBPD's brain is wired, and different than just having a "poor self esteem". I think it is one of those things that is a bit abstract for us nons to think about or understand, because the lack of a true self is something we nons don't feel, because we have one. 

[i took too much time writing this, two new posts appeared, i'll post this anyway]

This is pretty much what my BPD SO says. He says there is no self. He doesn't sense it. The only sense of self he has is just extremely deep self-loathing of everything he is. Also, to him asking questions like "what to you want to today" are very difficult and almost annoying as he is expected to have an opinion (or being able to form one), which for the most time he is unable to.

He (unknowingly) alters his behaviour according to what people seem to be expecting of him (trying to please everyone very hard, too hard) so when he is asked an opinion he should (to please the asker perfectly) be able to give one - it's a mess and all this causes him anxiety.

Far worse, it has affected his relationships as he unconciously becomes what the other person is looking for. But of course that doesn't work for long and at least previously it made him dissociate badly (imagine one's shock when a loving wonderful guy turns into a cold and distant person overnight). He does plain and simple mirror, but i am not too sure to which degree. And I have no idea how much he is what he is, with me, since it seems to be what i want him to be - we have discussed it and only know that he cannot keep a full "show" up for more than couple of days without snapping into someone else so it probably isn't all that.

But, i think since he is sometimes at least partially aware of the constant extreme pleasing he does and is able to self-reflect (!), there must be some sort of self and core, though its probably very weak. I can name many thoughts and ways that seem typical to him only (ie are not mirrored and are semi-consistent). Perhaps the sort-of-normal self is developing slowly. I'm also thinking some of the dissociative personas/aspects are actually morphing into the usual him i get to see, something i'm utterly happy.