Kid Stuff

[vortex of confusion]

I have been following the thread about protecting kids. Trying to navigate things with the kids has been challenging for me. For the longest time, I put all of my focus on my husband. Then I switched to just focusing on the kids because it was becoming apparent that the kids were really having a rough time with their dad's behavior. Now, I feel like I try to find ways to take care of both. I am thinking about an incident that happened before I went to work today. I was chilling and getting ready for work. My daughter needed the batteries changed in her flashlight. She brought it to me. Before I could say or do anything, he yelled at her to bring it to him. I reinforced him and told her to take it to dad.

So, he tells her to get the batteries off the kitchen cabinet. She can't find them so he starts yelling at her. He gets up and goes and looks for the batteries himself. He finds a pack with only one battery in it and then proceeds to tell her that he can't change the batteries in her flashlight. She is a bit upset because this whole time he was sitting at his computer snapping at her. He tells her there are no other batteries. I try to tell them both that we do indeed have more batteries. He started arguing with me so I get up and walk to the kitchen and go straight to the batteries. There was some back and forth over what size they needed. I found both sizes. He gets mad and snappy and asks, "Where the hell were they?" I told him, "They were right here in plain sight." He got ugly with me and said, "Well, excuuuuuse me for being blind." He was being a super jerk to me and our daughter.

I yelled back at him and told him, "I don't think it is cool that you just sat there and yelled at her for not being able to find them and then you couldn't find them either. Don't be a jerk to her and then turn around and be a jerk to me because I found the batteries."

It was silly to end up having such a heated exchange over batteries. He gets mad at the kids because they come to me for stuff instead of him. I try to tell them to go to dad because I know that it bugs him when they come to me all the time. The problem is that he will be a jerk to them or half ignore them and they end up coming back to me anyway.

Over the weekend, the younger kids wanted to go to the mall. I said I would take them. Our oldest was home asleep. Dad could have come with us if we weren't out too long. He kept going back and forth over whether or not to go with us. I finally told him, "You are the dad. You get to decide whether or not to go." Anyway, he tells one of the younger ones that he wants to go. She proceeds to get all huffy and pouty and mad so he decides not to go. I tried to talk to her about it while we were out and she said that she doesn't like going places with dad because he yells at them a lot and makes them nervous. I have seen how he will nitpick and micromanage things. "Stay close." "Quit walking in front of me." "Be quiet." It feels like a constant stream of commands.

Today, the girls were playing in the dirt. Before they even started enjoying it, the first thing out of his mouth is, "You know you are going to have to shower after this." It seems like no matter what the girls do, he will make some kind of remark. They saw a cicada exoskeleton and pointed it out to us. Instead of saying that it was cool and looking at it, he says immediately, "It might no be a cicada, it might be a locust." The girls knew what they were looking at but he had to interject.

Then Saturday night, one of the kids was trying on a pair of suspenders. He called them something else that I had never heard of before. I can't even remember what the term was now. It just stuck that he had to correct us in naming suspenders and telling us that they were actually called something else. I told him, "I have never heard you use that term before." and he says, "Oh, I call them that all the time." Um, no, I have never ever heard the term that he used for suspenders and neither had the kids. Even when we aren't wrong, he still wants to find a way to correct us or throw something in. This is having a really negative impact on the kids.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to intervene on the kids' behalf? I used to not doing anything and just sort of keep silent. Now, I feel a strong need to let the kids know that they are not crazy. Plus, there are times when I feel like my kids are starting to exhibit some of the same traits as my husband. I was a bit snarky the other day because he started yelling at the kids about something that he does a lot. I made the offhand remark, "I wonder where they learned it." I know I shouldn't have said it but it is maddening to feel like I am sitting on this sideshow watching the whole push/pull thing with him and the kids. I have had a lot of open conversations with the kids about things but it still makes them not want to be with dad. They hate it when I go to work even though I only work 12 hours a week.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I have been following the thread about protecting kids. Trying to navigate things with the kids has been challenging for me. For the longest time, I put all of my focus on my husband. Then I switched to just focusing on the kids because it was becoming apparent that the kids were really having a rough time with their dad's behavior. Now, I feel like I try to find ways to take care of both. I am thinking about an incident that happened before I went to work today. I was chilling and getting ready for work. My daughter needed the batteries changed in her flashlight. She brought it to me. Before I could say or do anything, he yelled at her to bring it to him. I reinforced him and told her to take it to dad.

So, he tells her to get the batteries off the kitchen cabinet. She can't find them so he starts yelling at her. He gets up and goes and looks for the batteries himself. He finds a pack with only one battery in it and then proceeds to tell her that he can't change the batteries in her flashlight. She is a bit upset because this whole time he was sitting at his computer snapping at her. He tells her there are no other batteries. I try to tell them both that we do indeed have more batteries. He started arguing with me so I get up and walk to the kitchen and go straight to the batteries. There was some back and forth over what size they needed. I found both sizes. He gets mad and snappy and asks, "Where the hell were they?" I told him, "They were right here in plain sight." He got ugly with me and said, "Well, excuuuuuse me for being blind." He was being a super jerk to me and our daughter.

I yelled back at him and told him, "I don't think it is cool that you just sat there and yelled at her for not being able to find them and then you couldn't find them either. Don't be a jerk to her and then turn around and be a jerk to me because I found the batteries."

It was silly to end up having such a heated exchange over batteries. He gets mad at the kids because they come to me for stuff instead of him. I try to tell them to go to dad because I know that it bugs him when they come to me all the time. The problem is that he will be a jerk to them or half ignore them and they end up coming back to me anyway.

Over the weekend, the younger kids wanted to go to the mall. I said I would take them. Our oldest was home asleep. Dad could have come with us if we weren't out too long. He kept going back and forth over whether or not to go with us. I finally told him, "You are the dad. You get to decide whether or not to go." Anyway, he tells one of the younger ones that he wants to go. She proceeds to get all huffy and pouty and mad so he decides not to go. I tried to talk to her about it while we were out and she said that she doesn't like going places with dad because he yells at them a lot and makes them nervous. I have seen how he will nitpick and micromanage things. "Stay close." "Quit walking in front of me." "Be quiet." It feels like a constant stream of commands.

Today, the girls were playing in the dirt. Before they even started enjoying it, the first thing out of his mouth is, "You know you are going to have to shower after this." It seems like no matter what the girls do, he will make some kind of remark. They saw a cicada exoskeleton and pointed it out to us. Instead of saying that it was cool and looking at it, he says immediately, "It might no be a cicada, it might be a locust." The girls knew what they were looking at but he had to interject.

Then Saturday night, one of the kids was trying on a pair of suspenders. He called them something else that I had never heard of before. I can't even remember what the term was now. It just stuck that he had to correct us in naming suspenders and telling us that they were actually called something else. I told him, "I have never heard you use that term before." and he says, "Oh, I call them that all the time." Um, no, I have never ever heard the term that he used for suspenders and neither had the kids. Even when we aren't wrong, he still wants to find a way to correct us or throw something in. This is having a really negative impact on the kids.

Does anybody have any suggestions on how to intervene on the kids' behalf? I used to not doing anything and just sort of keep silent. Now, I feel a strong need to let the kids know that they are not crazy. Plus, there are times when I feel like my kids are starting to exhibit some of the same traits as my husband. I was a bit snarky the other day because he started yelling at the kids about something that he does a lot. I made the offhand remark, "I wonder where they learned it." I know I shouldn't have said it but it is maddening to feel like I am sitting on this sideshow watching the whole push/pull thing with him and the kids. I have had a lot of open conversations with the kids about things but it still makes them not want to be with dad. They hate it when I go to work even though I only work 12 hours a week.

Can you update us again on the status of your hubby being in any kind of counseling or diagnosis? 

I'm wondering if some kind of family therapist or coach would help.  That way you don't have to be the one "instructing" him... .or "correcting" him.

[vortex of confusion]

Can you update us again on the status of your hubby being in any kind of counseling or diagnosis? 

I'm wondering if some kind of family therapist or coach would help.  That way you don't have to be the one "instructing" him... .or "correcting" him.

He has only seen a therapist 3 times and he has no idea when he is going back. The only thing he is doing is attending a 12 step program for sex addiction.

[formflier]

Can you update us again on the status of your hubby being in any kind of counseling or diagnosis? 

I'm wondering if some kind of family therapist or coach would help.  That way you don't have to be the one "instructing" him... .or "correcting" him.

He has only seen a therapist 3 times and he has no idea when he is going back. The only thing he is doing is attending a 12 step program for sex addiction.

If he wants a better r/s with the kids... .that is something he needs to work on with help from a professional.  I've had a very successful time with a family therapist.

I would try to approach him that this is someone who will help coach him on interacting with kids... .and will coach kids on interacting with him.

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

If he wants a better r/s with the kids... .that is something he needs to work on with help from a professional.  I've had a very successful time with a family therapist.

I would try to approach him that this is someone who will help coach him on interacting with kids... .and will coach kids on interacting with him.

Thoughts?

I think he has actually come a long way with the kids in the last year. At one point, him and the kids were fighting over me. My dad encouraged me to leave for a week and get some time away so that him and the kids could try to figure things out for themselves. When I am here, they all come to me. He interacts with the kids more like a peer than an adult. Tonight, I got an email from him while at work. I told him and the kids that I wanted the kids to be in bed when I got home from work. In the email, he told me that the kids had kicked him out of their room. He yelled at one of them so they decided that they didn't want him in there. As soon as I got home, they changed their story and now dad is with them.

When he was going to the therapist, most of the focus was on him and his family of origin. Very little progress was made on anything. Whenever I bring up therapy, he isn't very keen on it. I have sent him links to information about parenting and such. I am part of a couple of parenting forums and I help lots of moms navigate sticky parenting situations. So, I try to send him information to help him understand the kids better. And, I coach the kids a lot but it never seems to be enough. The kids will deliberately push his buttons.

[formflier]

If he wants a better r/s with the kids... .that is something he needs to work on with help from a professional.  I've had a very successful time with a family therapist.

I would try to approach him that this is someone who will help coach him on interacting with kids... .and will coach kids on interacting with him.

Thoughts?

I think he has actually come a long way with the kids in the last year. At one point, him and the kids were fighting over me. My dad encouraged me to leave for a week and get some time away so that him and the kids could try to figure things out for themselves. When I am here, they all come to me. He interacts with the kids more like a peer than an adult. Tonight, I got an email from him while at work. I told him and the kids that I wanted the kids to be in bed when I got home from work. In the email, he told me that the kids had kicked him out of their room. He yelled at one of them so they decided that they didn't want him in there. As soon as I got home, they changed their story and now dad is with them.

When he was going to the therapist, most of the focus was on him and his family of origin. Very little progress was made on anything. Whenever I bring up therapy, he isn't very keen on it. I have sent him links to information about parenting and such. I am part of a couple of parenting forums and I help lots of moms navigate sticky parenting situations. So, I try to send him information to help him understand the kids better. And, I coach the kids a lot but it never seems to be enough. The kids will deliberately push his buttons.

Somehow... you need to get out of this and let someone else be the coach... .

That way you can focus on your r/s with him... .

Someone else is helping him with his r/s with the kids... .and what he does or doesn't have to do  is not going to be your "fault".

Don't call it therapy... .call it coaching... .advising... whatever... .

[vortex of confusion]

Somehow... you need to get out of this and let someone else be the coach... .

That way you can focus on your r/s with him... .

Someone else is helping him with his r/s with the kids... .and what he does or doesn't have to do  is not going to be your "fault".

Don't call it therapy... .call it coaching... .advising... whatever... .

Hmmm, I am going to have to think about that. I know several parenting coaches. I wonder if I could encourage him to talk to one of them. It would seem a lot less like therapy or whatever. I have been encouraging him to participate and follow different discussions so that he can hear some of this stuff from somebody other than me.

I know him well enough to know that he probably won't go for any kind of family therapy or even marriage therapy. He seems to be of the mindset that if he gets through the 12 step program and gets his addiction and other compulsions under control, he will be fine. When I even mention parenting stuff, he seems to see it as me invalidating him because he has made so much progress in the last year.

I try to praise him for the progress he has made but don't feel like I can really make any suggestions for further improvements without him taking it as me criticizing him.

[formflier]

He seems to be of the mindset that if he gets through the 12 step program and gets his addiction and other compulsions under control, he will be fine. 

And it is likely that he will be... .

The key is "extreme separation" of functions here.

So... .individual issues are dealt with individually... .you are not involved in dealing with his stuff.  You are not him

You are involved in dealing with MC things... .if it ever got there... .because you are in that r/s.

Same thought with family... .kids are involved because they are in that r/s.

The specialists that deal with MC and FT should probably be different people... .but they should be able to talk frankly and openly on a professional level about the entire situation.

As you have figured... .this idea may take a long time to set in... .and get action taken on it.  But I encourage you to start looking around.

Remember not to focus on "fixes"... .but in taking steps in the right direction.

[takingandsending]

vortex, if you can accomplish what formflier is suggesting, that sounds like the best option. In the meantime, you are in the middle. Two things that will help your kids: 1) being consistent with them; 2) providing validation for their experience, in whatever form is least controversial. The second item is dependent on the situation, that is how much damage is being inflicted by pwBPD. I am going to make mistakes. I am human. But my choice is to err on the side of protecting the kids, particularly in the case of unprovoked, ad hominem attacks.

[Verbena]

I am here because of my BPD DD29; however, I have come to realize my husband has serious issues of his own.  When the kids were little, they would ask me all the time "Why is Daddy mad?  Why does Daddy act that way?"  My husband/their father is VERY, VERY negative and critical.  Very. 

He would rather stick pins in his eyes than pay me a compliment on anything.  I spent hours this week moving about 15 wheelbarrow loads of crushed granite to the backyard where I am making a firepit area.  When H saw it and I asked if he liked it (I still after 32 years would like his approval) he said in his barely audible, flat, monotone voice (the one reserved for me) "Looks good" and then IMMEDIATELY followed that with, "You have a low spot over here."  He MUST correct wrongs, micromanage, criticize, and show his displeasure with me at all times.  He did the same with our kids when they were younger. 

It sounds like your children have learned it's better to come to you than feel the wrath of their father's emotions.  I wish I had advice for you, but I really don't.  I will say that you speaking your mind to him and trying to hold him accountable is admirable.  I hardly ever did that.  I just told the kids, "Stay away from him.  He's in a bad mood." 

[formflier]

I am here because of my BPD DD29; however, I have come to realize my husband has serious issues of his own.  When the kids were little, they would ask me all the time "Why is Daddy mad?  Why does Daddy act that way?"  My husband/their father is VERY, VERY negative and critical.  Very. 

He would rather stick pins in his eyes than pay me a compliment on anything.  I spent hours this week moving about 15 wheelbarrow loads of crushed granite to the backyard where I am making a firepit area.  When H saw it and I asked if he liked it (I still after 32 years would like his approval) he said in his barely audible, flat, monotone voice (the one reserved for me) "Looks good" and then IMMEDIATELY followed that with, "You have a low spot over here."  He MUST correct wrongs, micromanage, criticize, and show his displeasure with me at all times.  He did the same with our kids when they were younger. 

It sounds like your children have learned it's better to come to you than feel the wrath of their father's emotions.  I wish I had advice for you, but I really don't.  I will say that you speaking your mind to him and trying to hold him accountable is admirable.  I hardly ever did that.  I just told the kids, "Stay away from him.  He's in a bad mood." 

One of the reasons it is so important to focus on learning the communication lesson for pwBPD and to tone down the "temperature" in the r/s is so that eventually you can get to the place where tough topics like the one above can be openly discussed... .and then hopefully action taken on them to make whatever the situation is better.

Verbena,

Can you describe your r/s with your husband now?  Are you able to discuss the wheelbarrow incident with him?

[Verbena]

formflier, thank you for asking.  I responded to this post because I saw my husband in some of what vortex said about her H's behavior.  My relationship with my H is not good, hasn't been for years.  I have voiced my feelings more recently and tried to establish some boundaries, but it hasn't gone very well.  My husband is never wrong and very rarely apologizes.  He doesn't like to discuss feelings, remembers almost nothing of incidents from the past--last month, last year, ten years ago, twenty years ago--it doesn't matter.  IN his mind, if he doesn't remember it (and he remembers very little) then it didn't happen.  It's hard to have conversations with him bc much of our 32-year marriage he has no memory of, expecially if it involves his own behavior.  

My H is adamantly opposed to therapy of any kind and won't talk about issues when I bring them up.  He cannot validate me, cannot understand why I would be upset about, for example, his ignoring my birthday recently.  Yeah, he completely ignored it, never mentioned it.  When I told him how that upset me, his response was, "Well, last week I bought you an ipad."  He doesn't get it.  His sarcastic and hateful "well happy birthday then!" at the end of our discussion (before he walked out the door) didn't really help matters.  He has no concept that he could be wrong.  

He also would never understand why I was upset last weekend when we arrived at a wedding and he let the door slam in my face on the way into the venue.  He walked in ahead of me--maybe 15 feet ahead of me--as he usually does.  He left the door open for me, but when I finally made it to the door, the wind almost slammed the door shut as I was going through it.  It nearly knocked me down, and his sister and others, who he was already inside talking to,  saw what happened.  For that reason, he did apologize and in the voice he uses with strangers (normal, personable) not the voice he uses with me (flat, low, monotone).  

I was humiliated, but I said nothing because he would have gotten angry and said he already apologized.  And he did.  The point is it's rude to walk way ahead of me and not hold the door open for me.  He once told me years ago that his dad said manners dictating men doing those things for women were ridiculous.  Of course, he would deny ever saying that because he has no memory, but he did say it and that's how he feels too.  He learned that one from his dad; he also learned to be miserable and negative from his dad.  He was the King of it.  At the wedding, his behavior was COMPLETELY different from how he usually acts.  He was friendly, talkative, positive, and enjoyed himself.  That really makes me angry that he can act like he has a nice personality in front of others but be a total jerk to me in private most of the time.  

I am currently reading The Praying Wife.  I will admit I am struggling with it because in order to really pray for him, I have to let go of my own anger and look at how I may be contributing toward this miserable marriage.  I just have so much resentment toward him that it's standing in the way.  God has His work cut out with me on this.  I do believe in prayer.  I also believe in free will.  My husband ultimately will have to CHOOSE to behave differently.  

I apologize for hijacking this post! 

[formflier]

formflier, thank you for asking.  I responded to this post because I saw my husband in some of what vortex said about her H's behavior.  My relationship with my H is not good, hasn't been for years.  I have voiced my feelings more recently and tried to establish some boundaries, but it hasn't gone very well.  My husband is never wrong and very rarely apologizes.  He doesn't like to discuss feelings, remembers almost nothing of incidents from the past--last month, last year, ten years ago, twenty years ago--it doesn't matter.  IN his mind, if he doesn't remember it (and he remembers very little) then it didn't happen.  It's hard to have conversations with him bc much of our 32-year marriage he has no memory of, expecially if it involves his own behavior.  

My H is adamantly opposed to therapy of any kind and won't talk about issues when I bring them up.  He cannot validate me, cannot understand why I would be upset about, for example, his ignoring my birthday recently.  Yeah, he completely ignored it, never mentioned it.  When I told him how that upset me, his response was, "Well, last week I bought you an ipad."  He doesn't get it.  His sarcastic and hateful "well happy birthday then!" at the end of our discussion (before he walked out the door) didn't really help matters.  He has no concept that he could be wrong.  

He also would never understand why I was upset last weekend when we arrived at a wedding and he let the door slam in my face on the way into the venue.  He walked in ahead of me--maybe 15 feet ahead of me--as he usually does.  He left the door open for me, but when I finally made it to the door, the wind almost slammed the door shut as I was going through it.  It nearly knocked me down, and his sister and others, who he was already inside talking to,  saw what happened.  For that reason, he did apologize and in the voice he uses with strangers (normal, personable) not the voice he uses with me (flat, low, monotone).  

I was humiliated, but I said nothing because he would have gotten angry and said he already apologized.  And he did.  The point is it's rude to walk way ahead of me and not hold the door open for me.  He once told me years ago that his dad said manners dictating men doing those things for women were ridiculous.  Of course, he would deny ever saying that because he has no memory, but he did say it and that's how he feels too.  He learned that one from his dad; he also learned to be miserable and negative from his dad.  He was the King of it.  At the wedding, his behavior was COMPLETELY different from how he usually acts.  He was friendly, talkative, positive, and enjoyed himself.  That really makes me angry that he can act like he has a nice personality in front of others but be a total jerk to me in private most of the time.  

I am currently reading The Praying Wife.  I will admit I am struggling with it because in order to really pray for him, I have to let go of my own anger and look at how I may be contributing toward this miserable marriage.  I just have so much resentment toward him that it's standing in the way.  God has His work cut out with me on this.  I do believe in prayer.  I also believe in free will.  My husband ultimately will have to CHOOSE to behave differently.  

I apologize for hijacking this post! 

No worries on the hijack... .but I believe there is enough here to warrant a fresh thread.  I'll keep an eye out.

Not to be provactive... .but you also have a choice to behave differently as well.  Most of the time in a r/s with pwBPD... .when the non changes behavior... .the dynamic of the r/s will change as well. 

That was certainly the case in my r/s. 

Very important to get educated about options.  Think and pray about them for a while before trying to implement them. 

Hope to see you and discuss more about this is a new thread.

Preview:  I'm most interested in discussions about you trying to establish boundaries... .and why it didn't go well.  In theory... .that is something 100% under your control... .in theory... .