Never ending conflict

[Econprofessor]

My spouse and I have three chicken. We have been married for 14-15 years. The marriage was never perfect but there was a marriage there based on love, respect, friendship, humor, and some shared spiritual values. That has all but stopped and the situation now feels like a slow painful grind.

I don't know if my spouse has BPD, though when I read books about what it's like to be married to someone with those traits, it reminds me so much of my situation I can only conclude that I am or that my own mental health problems are way worse than I have ever known. On many levels, the latter isn't implausible because here are my known symptoms:

- I was diagnosed with ADHD primarily inattentive in 2010

- I struggle with intense frustrations and boredoms related to that

- I used drugs in high school but haven't since

- my reactions to my wife's behavior trigger a lot of core and comorbid ADHD symptoms like anger and agitation, struggle accessing my memories, exaggeration, "jumping to conclusions" and so forth.

The biggest complaints i have are that my spouse behaves so differently behind closed doors than around others that I can't seem to even get people to conceptually understand what is going on or believe me. When i try to talk to her about my experiences with her, her reactions seem to escalate things to bizarre conflict levels. I've bought books on relationships for people with ADHD (she also received that diagnosis recently and we both take vyvanse for it), but they aren't read. What makes things almost worse in every way is that she is a therapist in a small sized city, and so even getting assistance is difficult anyway but even moreso bc of the managed way in which she controls people's access to information.

I have been trying to stop sharing with people what's going on privately. I just don't get anywhere with it, first of all. But it's also so painful to tell people things and they treat you like you're making it up or exaggerating or being typical me. Or even more complex is the friends who are friends with each of us. Everytime now I tell them what is going on, they say "you guys both have a narrative about one another!" It feels like my every effort to get any assistance has been trumped by statements and stories that accomplish two things: they are my triggers and I get upset (I'm careful not to says she "makes me upset" though) and they just add noise to the whole information flow between my family and others.

Yesterday I came home and after kids went down, she told me she had gone and spoken with our psychiatrist, shared with him her concerns about me, and now he is very concerned too. Initially she told me that he had set up a time and wanted to meet with me asap. But when I told her I would but not with her present, she seemed to imply that she would be going to the meeting anyway. And if I didn't let her be in the meeting with him, that she would "just use the session herself" bc this guy is so hard to reach.

As stated above, I feel like my actions are lose-lose. How could it not look bad on me that I don't want to go to a meeting with shrink with her? But there's history here -- for years id begged for us to see a marriage therapist, and we went through three of them in about 24 months. The first time, she said she didn't like the person and I said okay. The second one I hung with for longer than she did with the first but never did it feel right. It felt like the shared therapist vocation biased him as did the male-female dynamic. But he was the one who had us tested and where we got a "high conflict couple" diagnosis. The third person she quit on.

Now the never ending narrative in the house is that I can't control myself in sessions. That I become angry and abusive. But while that maybe was once the case (though I've never had that said by a therapist I have been told I struggle with disregulation), the more recent episodes didn't go that way. But at the same time, I think its highly likely that when I am in these meetings privately with her, I am so desperate for someone to understand the insanity I'm experiencing with her that I lose control. I want someone to understand this stuff so I can stop doing so.

I am worried about the meeting with the shrink. What if I really can't hold it together? What if I start crying, getting lost in my tangents, and just feeling unable to speak clearly with her there. I'm tired of saying to people "I think my wife shows BPD symptoms" and they look at me like I'm crazy. Her latest thing is to say that the vyvanse (which we both take) is causing delusions. That is her way of describing me trying to talk to her and others about the crazy crap that I feel like is happening in my marriage.

Its so deeply upsetting. I struggle with the words. What do I even explain to someone? The chronic blaming of me for example combined with the gas lighting behaviors that seem designed to make me doubt my every experience and memory. Since they piggy back on my ADHD symptoms, they're plausible in principle. But they're implausible if someone could just witness what happens. But no one can or will.

I was thinking of filing for divorce today. I'm worried that by staying with her, I am putting myself in legal jeopardy. I don't know if she is building a case against me and every action taken is evidence for that. Her contacting my shrink and telling him all her theories to the point where she's concerned -- Ironically, I have been trying to get my therapist (who was her partner -- stupid I realize now but realized too late the conflicts of interst would become such an obstacle) but I would explain to him what was going on, and he would get so concerned, until he would talk with her. Then he just seemed to say to both of us that we don't even describe the same marriage at all. Everyone says that too.

I'm lost in this. And I feel really desperate. My work is slipping, and I talked with my department chair recently to explain. He was supportive. I just feel so unbelievably non-validated. And the thing is, I feel like given how I understand the social dynamics at work, with all these friends and close professionals, and my lack of credibility, I actually feel like its very rational that people wouldn't know who to believe or what to believe. But that doesn't change the fact I really want someone to help me.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[tayana]

I would recommend finding a therapist or counselor not affiliated in any way with your spouse.  I can't tell you she has BPD, though the behaviors sound like it.  My spouse and I went through couples counseling for a while and it turned into a forum for her to say how I never listen, don't care about her, don't show her I love her, etc.  Anything I needed to say or felt didn't get a chance to be said.  We eventually stopped the sessions. 

Your feelings about your situation are valid, no matter what your spouse says.  You feel devalued and unheard.  Asking to see a doctor or therapist without her is your right as a patient.  If you need to find a new psychiatrist that does not have a conflict of interest, do so.  She cannot force herself to be present unless she has some sort of guardianship over you.  My spouse won't let me talk to her doctors or therapists at all, so I never really know what she says is true, what is her perception, and what she has made up to garner sympathy.

I too heard how I was abusive and controlling in shared counseling sessions, but I never really got to speak in them.  Read the articles on her about validating what she says but not react to it.  You are the only one who can say how your medication is affecting your body.  As far as the gas-lighting, start keeping a journal of things that you have said and done.  Keep records of emails, texts, etc. not so much to prove to her that you are correct, but to prove to yourself you aren't crazy.  She will deny everything or tell you they are lies.  Does your work have an employee assistance program that might be able to help you find another therapist?

[Econprofessor]

I would recommend finding a therapist or counselor not affiliated in any way with your spouse.  I can't tell you she has BPD, though the behaviors sound like it.  My spouse and I went through couples counseling for a while and it turned into a forum for her to say how I never listen, don't care about her, don't show her I love her, etc.  Anything I needed to say or felt didn't get a chance to be said.  We eventually stopped the sessions. 

Your feelings about your situation are valid, no matter what your spouse says.  You feel devalued and unheard.  Asking to see a doctor or therapist without her is your right as a patient.  If you need to find a new psychiatrist that does not have a conflict of interest, do so.  She cannot force herself to be present unless she has some sort of guardianship over you.  My spouse won't let me talk to her doctors or therapists at all, so I never really know what she says is true, what is her perception, and what she has made up to garner sympathy.

I too heard how I was abusive and controlling in shared counseling sessions, but I never really got to speak in them.  Read the articles on her about validating what she says but not react to it.  You are the only one who can say how your medication is affecting your body.  As far as the gas-lighting, start keeping a journal of things that you have said and done.  Keep records of emails, texts, etc. not so much to prove to her that you are correct, but to prove to yourself you aren't crazy.  She will deny everything or tell you they are lies.  Does your work have an employee assistance program that might be able to help you find another therapist?

My work might.  It's a university and we have good healthcare.  I'll ask.  I spoke with my kids' psychologist today shortly after hitting send on that message, and unfortunately, the two people that she had in mind were (she found out) in my spouse's professional/personal/collegial circle.  It's the most important priority to me that I even know how to articulate -- the rest of what I need right now is frankly just a black box.  So she's suggesting people that are 45 minutes to 60 minutes south of here.  At this point, I'm just going to make an appointment, and make the first drive, and maybe that new therapist can help me just get someone locally.  This city is small enough, and my spouse's practice is large enough, and our own social network is composed of the kinds of people where I feel like I know more therapists than I know faculty members at my university.  It just adds an additional layer of difficulty.

Your statements about therapy sessions sound similar to my own.  I have been wanting to do a very structured kind of marital therapy after having done this kind of open-ended sort.  One where there is a kind of practiced communication, homework assignments, and anything that would allow the therapist to actually observe the "big bang" of these conflicts.  Because when all we would do is talk to people after that big bang, it all came down to just conflicting memories.  I am not sure what to say about the fact that I've asked therapists and friends to just read texts and emails, or that I asked my spouse if we could record these fights and get coaching that way.  That pursuit just ended with more criticisms by my spouse and others about how awful that was.  And maybe it is awful 99% of the time.  All I know is that I am trying to get anyone to get a pair of eyes and ears on this so that I can genuinely know how to navigate this stuff.  I may have a PhD and be a professor, but quite honestly I've never felt more incompetent in my life than I feel navigating these waters with my spouse.  It feels like the twilight zone to me. 

As far as my rights with my psychiatrist.  I appreciate you saying that. If you think are pointing out the obvious, I can assure you few things are very obvious to me anymore.  I think my depression has debilitated me, and I do feel pretty disoriented a lot of the time because of the nature of the conflicts.  That I have three children who depend on me, who I love, and who love me, just makes all of it too heavy sometimes.

I will start keeping a diary again.  I did it for a while, but I did it poorly. I told her in a meeting with our friends that I could no longer receive any texts from her, and since then, it's been a major help in a lot of ways. Those texts were like War and Peace.  When I get worked up, I also am writing long things. So I couldn't seem to figure out how to stop any of it, or even honestly how to make myself stop being whatever I was being.  The ending of the texts has helped.  The problem with texts is that my messaging app is practically impossible to search through.  I felt like I was trying to search through a giant scroll of insanity.  At this point, I almost needed advice on a way to practically record my experiences both to calm myself down, but also just to make a record. 

[waverider]

Combined therapy is pointless it just becomes a blame game trying to get the T on your side. You get nowhere.

You cant fix your wife nor change the way she acts in the short term.

Conflict requires your reaction. T for you might be helpful along with time spent here in order to help you stop being as reactive and as sensitive to your wife's behavior.

Trying to get outsiders to see and understand what is happening behind closed doors is futile and will lead to much frustration and anguish for you, and keep you trapped in victim mode.

Learning inner strength and taking back your own rights to what you should be exposed to is the starting point.

[Econprofessor]

Combined therapy is pointless it just becomes a blame game trying to get the T on your side. You get nowhere.

You cant fix your wife nor change the way she acts in the short term.

Conflict requires your reaction. T for you might be helpful along with time spent here in order to help you stop being as reactive and as sensitive to your wife's behavior.

Trying to get outsiders to see and understand what is happening behind closed doors is futile and will lead to much frustration and anguish for you, and keep you trapped in victim mode.

Learning inner strength and taking back your own rights to what you should be exposed to is the starting point.

What would you suggest I start with?  I really do want both of those things -- my inner strength and knowing what my rights are. 

[vortex of confusion]

What would you suggest I start with?  I really do want both of those things -- my inner strength and knowing what my rights are. 

First, start with reading some of the lessons on the side of the page. Like waverider said, in order for there to be confrontation or discord, you have to react. I know it is so unbelievably difficult to not react to some things. So, start looking at how you feel and start paying attention to the things that you react to most. I find it helpful to think about the times that I have had the worst reactions and look at what I was doing rather than focusing on my spouse. I try to mentally run through things in my head so that I am not caught off guard as much. I know that the times when I have the worst reactions are the times when I feel really blindsided. Things can be going really well and my husband will get upset about something really insignificant and it will throw me off guard and I will have a crappy reaction. With "normal" people, we can both have bad reactions and it isn't a big deal. Life goes on. Not the case with a BPD or someone with BPD traits.

I didn't realize how much everything had become about my spouse until I started reading through some of the lessons.

I don't understand what you mean about knowing your rights. You are not your spouses property. You have the right to make decisions that are in your best interest. Unless somebody has gone to court and proven that you are mentally incompetent, nobody can make those decisions but you. And, I don't care what your spouse says, you have the right to see a therapist without the therapist talking to your wife. Every counselor or medical professional that I have ever seen requires my written permission before they will release any of my medical information to my husband. Being married does not automatically mean that she can access all of your information. Also, you have a right to tell your therapist that you do not want him/her to talk to anyone about your sessions. That is your right. If your therapist violates that, then you should be able to file a complaint against that person. It is a huge violation of medical/professional ethics. If you are a professor, then think about FERPA and who you give information to about your students. Professionals in the medical/therapeutic fields have those same sorts of guidelines/laws to follow. Do NOT let your wife or anybody else tell you otherwise. Every therapist/counselor has to go through some sort of state licensing. Check with the licensing body for your state to see what the legal requirements are for therapists and also find out what the procedure is for filing a complaint against a therapist that violates your privacy by talking to someone other than you about your situation.

[waverider]

Combined therapy is pointless it just becomes a blame game trying to get the T on your side. You get nowhere.

You cant fix your wife nor change the way she acts in the short term.

Conflict requires your reaction. T for you might be helpful along with time spent here in order to help you stop being as reactive and as sensitive to your wife's behavior.

Trying to get outsiders to see and understand what is happening behind closed doors is futile and will lead to much frustration and anguish for you, and keep you trapped in victim mode.

Learning inner strength and taking back your own rights to what you should be exposed to is the starting point.

What would you suggest I start with?  I really do want both of those things -- my inner strength and knowing what my rights are. 

The first thing is to learn strong boundaries. eg " I will not expose myself to being abused, or talked to like I am worthless". (This is your basic right). This will involve a lot of leaving the scene in a dignified way, as opposed to run and hide. You will also need to do this earlier rather than later when you may be under extreme pressure. This is your main safety fuse, until you have established this as your absolute right then you have no fall back.

Work this out in advance for when it happens rather than trying to wing it in the moment. It is an "escape plan", even knowing it is there is empowering even if you never enact it.

This is not the same as making demands, as that is trying to get her to do something, which falls on deaf ears, and something you have no control over. (you have to demonstrate your right she will not give it to you by negotiation)

Strength builds as you start to take back your rights, seeing rewards. Doubting your own worth and abilities is what undermines your strength.

The best values you can give your kids is to not allow them to see you trodden on. The worse values are watching their parents endlessly fighting toe to toe. That just confuses them


They say in a dom & sub BDSM relationship the sub has the real control, as without the sub allowing the dom to have power, the dom would have non. ie The sub has a choice. Choice is the foundation stone of control.

Keep in mind non of this is easy, and you will stuff up, but there are plenty chances to try again so don't beat yourself up when you do.