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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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gherkins
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« on: September 18, 2014, 11:26:56 AM »

The husband's parents are coming to visit us next week, and it's not a weekend we normally have his daughter.  Husband emailed the ex to see about either trading weekends or getting an additional weekend so that the kiddo can see her grandparents.  The ex responded that she had a very busy weekend schedule, and would not trade weekends.  However, she would consent to letting us have the  additional weekend provided that we drive all the way to pick up and drop off the daughter.  The parenting plan states that exchanges are to be at a halfway point between our two towns.  So, how we handle this?

If we don't get the additional time, the daughter and the grands miss out.

If we agree, we are submitting to the ex's selfish demands and setting up a precedent for future exchanges.

I'm leaning towards the passive-aggressive tactic of telling the kiddo that her mom won't let her see her grandparents, and putting the focus back on the ex.  It's not very healthy or aboveboard, but it puts her in a bad light instead of us.

Any thoughts or suggestions?
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Ishenuts
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« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2014, 11:59:56 AM »

Gherkins, I know how much we hate to give in to the pwBPD/NPD, but what is in the best interest of the child and grandparents this time? You are asking for a favor (drat!) so you probably have to give in to her demands, unfortunately. I don't think you can cite the parenting plan transportation requirements as this is a special situation. She could very easily just say "NO" (and follow the parenting plan to the letter as we general recommend when it's the pwBPD/NPD asking for an exception - Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) and the child and grandparents lose out.

I'm leaning towards the passive-aggressive tactic of telling the kiddo that her mom won't let her see her grandparents, and putting the focus back on the ex.  It's not very healthy or aboveboard, but it puts her in a bad light instead of us.

Don't play their game! This could just as easily put you guys in a bad light when the ex tells the child that they offered to let them see the grandparents but you wouldn't cooperate. My exh would say something like, "I really wanted you to see your grandparents but Mom wouldn't agree to pick you up. I tried but your mom won't work with me" blah blah blah
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gherkins
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« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2014, 01:23:04 PM »

She could very easily just say "NO" (and follow the parenting plan to the letter as we general recommend when it's the pwBPD/NPD asking for an exception - Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) and the child and grandparents lose out.

Oh, she tends to disregard the parenting plan on a regular basis.  We're the ones who try to stick to it.  Every holiday, school appointment, medical bill -she never is compliant.  We're working on a contempt motion right now.

Don't play their game! This could just as easily put you guys in a bad light when the ex tells the child that they offered to let them see the grandparents but you wouldn't cooperate. My exh would say something like, "I really wanted you to see your grandparents but Mom wouldn't agree to pick you up. I tried but your mom won't work with me" blah blah blah

And she's pulled this one on a regular basis.  Each time after calling the police, family services, a domestic violence shelter, she withholds visitation and tries to make us drive into her town to see the kiddo.  When we point out the violations of the parenting plan, she tells the kiddo that she tried to work with us, but Dad and Gherkins didn't want to see her that weekend. 

I'm still holding out for halfway point exchange, but we'll see.  Like you said, what's best for the kiddo is what's important, and we just can't get that through the ex's head.  It's more important for her to keep up with her facebooking than to do right by her daughter.

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catclaw
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« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2014, 01:58:32 PM »

hey gherkins 

similar situation here - i know how hard this decision can be. we experienced that if ONCE we make an exception (i.e. picking SS up) she takes for granted that if it works out ONCE, it has to go on like this. where i live there is a law - if the kid doesn't live with you and you want to spend time you have to pick up and bring back the kiddo. DH did this for years. now that SS lives with us and it works the other way round we have (in her opinion) to make efforts to help her out with the ways. ummm - no. DH and i both work AND study AND have SS while she does nothing at all except for having unrealistic plans for the future. oh, and some partying.

Some time ago she demanded (not asked) that DH had to make both ways as she was injured on the foot and couldn't walk (a small injury lots of people have and still go to work, nothing that ties you to bed for weeks). we were trying so hard to find a middle way - if DH did that once, she'd ask for it the next time also. and one day we would end up doing both ways EOW just to make it possible for SS to see his mom.

also that moving thing - 8 appartments in 4 towns in 7 years - with SS in the middle with no idea why he had to change kindergarden and nannies over and over again. so yeah, i guess -once again- that some patterns tend to be too similar to be random.

in your case: what happens if mwPBD wants to trade a weekend? does she do both ways? is there anyone who could do the half way for her(parents, friends you can trust)? or is there a possibility to spend an afternoon over, not at her house but maybe going to the zoo, the mall or whatever is close to her to just spend an afternoon with grand and kids?

lots of love
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gherkins
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« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2014, 02:27:17 PM »

hey gherkins 

similar situation here - i know how hard this decision can be. we experienced that if ONCE we make an exception (i.e. picking SS up) she takes for granted that if it works out ONCE, it has to go on like this. where i live there is a law - if the kid doesn't live with you and you want to spend time you have to pick up and bring back the kiddo. DH did this for years. now that SS lives with us and it works the other way round we have (in her opinion) to make efforts to help her out with the ways. ummm - no. DH and i both work AND study AND have SS while she does nothing at all except for having unrealistic plans for the future. oh, and some partying.

Some time ago she demanded (not asked) that DH had to make both ways as she was injured on the foot and couldn't walk (a small injury lots of people have and still go to work, nothing that ties you to bed for weeks). we were trying so hard to find a middle way - if DH did that once, she'd ask for it the next time also. and one day we would end up doing both ways EOW just to make it possible for SS to see his mom.

also that moving thing - 8 appartments in 4 towns in 7 years - with SS in the middle with no idea why he had to change kindergarden and nannies over and over again. so yeah, i guess -once again- that some patterns tend to be too similar to be random.

in your case: what happens if mwPBD wants to trade a weekend? does she do both ways? is there anyone who could do the half way for her(parents, friends you can trust)? or is there a possibility to spend an afternoon over, not at her house but maybe going to the zoo, the mall or whatever is close to her to just spend an afternoon with grand and kids?

lots of love

I think your husband and mine were married to the same fruitbat/woman!  The "injuries", the fantastic plans, the constant moving - it's like looking in a mirror.

If the ex ever wants to trade weekends, which is rare because she usually just cancels our weekend and usurps it, she doesn't make any concessions for travel.  We meet at the halfway point.  It's only on our end that travel plans are altered.

The last time she tried to use a restraining order to change the parenting plan, she tried to demand that we use a safe exchange location in her town (3 hours away), with us paying the fees.  Fortunately, the judge saw what she was trying to do and said no.  Ever since then, she has been very difficult to work with on any concessions.

I don't think it would be possible to spend the afternoon in their town -Grandma is in a wheelchair, and it's a big ordeal for them to travel, so adding an additional day's worth of driving would really be hard on them. 

How did your DH manage to correct the driving because of the injured foot situation? How long did it take before you didn't have to drive both ways?
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sanemom
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« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2014, 02:33:08 PM »

I think if you are asking a favor, you may need to concede.

It probably was not a good idea to put meeting halfway in the CO... .I think that always gives these people some power.

It may not be feasible, but if one weekend you end up driving all the way to pick her up, maybe you just let her know that since you did 100% to get her, BPD mom can do all of the driving to take her back home? 
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highroadstepmom

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« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2014, 03:01:03 PM »

If we make a request to swap time or do something difference, we go in willing to manage the travel to exchange. We also go in knowing the favor is very unlikely to be returned our way.  Last summer we wanted to put the kids in a week-long science camp closer to us but during her custodial days. We offered to do ALL the driving - pick the kids up from her on her custodial days, take them to summer camp and back again. It was a lot but the kids LOVED the camp and learned a lot.

Do what's right for your kids. Expect nothing - and be pleasantly surprised during those rare instances of helpfulness. Hang in there! 
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gherkins
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« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2014, 03:11:27 PM »

We put the halfway point in the CO to counteract some of the constant moving she has done.  She fought it, and she is still fighting it.  This is just another instance of it.

We will probably end up driving 3 hours in to get the kiddo, and then three hours back to drop her off.  It stinks for us, but also for the kiddo who has to deal with it and who isn't allowed to play music loudly in the backseat without a lecture from me about hearing loss and a good pair of headphones.
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Nope
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« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2014, 08:08:58 AM »

We have it in our order that we do half way, but if the parties do not agree on a meeting time or place then the person having the parenting time must drive all the way and the person getting the kids back must then drive all the way the other way. Example: We do the halfway thing to drop off the kids to her. She then has the kids. Then, if she where to refuse to meet us half way, we go all the way and get them. Then we'd let her know, by email, that since we could not agree and we drove the full way to get them, per the order, it is her responsibility to drive all he way to pick them up.  (Emphasis on that this is what we _would_ do. It's never come up because it's a nine hour drive so it's never had to be more than a threat.)

I agree with others that in this case since you are asking for a favor there isn't anything to be done about the driving. However, some day she may want a favor and I would remember this when that day comes. (As long as it doesn't negatively impact the kiddos.) Good call with the contempt motion. One of the factors that helped get my DH custody was BPD mom's documented failure to facilitate his parenting time.
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catclaw
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« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2014, 01:18:49 PM »

gherkins, in the end, my DH didn't do both ways. the best solution for us is to deny her demands, but give her various reasonable alternatives to choose from. in the end, she had to make more than half the way and DH brought SS to the train station for her to pick him up there instead of coming to our house. and she was even able to walk... who knew x) maybe i explained it badly, english isn't my mother tongue, so i hope this misunderstanding didn't make you upset  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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DreamGirl
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Do. Or do not. There is no try.


« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2014, 03:20:20 PM »

Excerpt
Ever since then, she has been very difficult to work with on any concessions.

In the years when my husband was high conflict with his ex-wife -- there wasn't a whole lot of concessions going on. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Only because it was just too much for him, it was too much for her, and it was too much for the kids to come to any kind of agreement. It was just easier to have the boundary that he would stick to the court order. No matter what. Not to show power or to not be accommodating or compromise... .but because she really struggles in the concept of "you do for me, I'll do for you" when it's not a negative way. i.e. if he said "no" to extra time once, she'd reference it the next 128 times he asks but won't really retain the 12 times that he agreed to extra time before that.

The pwBPD in my life half the time doesn't know that she's being irrational because she is such a creature of the moment --- YOU NEVER LET ME HAVE EXTRA TIME! is just the statement based on the complete feeling in that moment because she's not getting what she wants. For a pwBPD the feeling = fact.

It's really not personal. It's just a lack of skills in dealing with these things.  

My advice for you in this is that you can only control what you can control. She has the right to say "no". She also not valuing that your husband's parents are in town is also OK. The same way that when she makes plans and your husband values their time spent with him more, that's OK too. It's just two sets of values that are not coinciding with each other. You can't expect her to align her values with yours, no more then can she expect you to align to hers.   

Your being passive aggressive is also altering your own values based on the actions of the other parent is basically busting your own boundaries in order to be "right". When it's more about what's "right for me". The kids don't need to be taken down that road especially when the other parent takes residence on it in the first place. We have to hold ourselves to the standard we know is right.

My advice is to schedule all family visits and vacations on the days you know the kids are with you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

My hubs did that for years and years. It reduced the conflict. It also made the argument far less interesting. And it made it really great for the kids who didn't want to have to worry if mom/dad was being rational about a situation. No choosing sides, not being disappointed because we planned a trip to Disney Land on her weekend.

I'd respond to her email that says that she has plans with... .

Dear Ex,

The grandparents would love to see them, but I understand that you already made plans.

If your plans change, please let me know.

--DG Hubs


Entering the Drama Free Zone.  Being cool (click to insert in post)
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livednlearned
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2014, 10:38:48 AM »

I'm leaning towards the passive-aggressive tactic of telling the kiddo that her mom won't let her see her grandparents, and putting the focus back on the ex.  It's not very healthy or aboveboard, but it puts her in a bad light instead of us.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

This stuff is going to happen again and again.  

It's really exasperating when the BPD sufferer can't just be agreeable and meet you have way (literally and figuratively).

Your instincts to put the brakes on passive-aggression are really good, gherkins. It's not healthy for you, and it's in no way healthy for the kids. They need to learn from someone how best to deal with this stuff, and you and your H are the kids' main shot at a positive role model for how to deal with conflict. Passive-aggression is an insidious coping mechanism and what you want are kids who learn how to assert healthy boundaries and deal with negative feelings like disappointment and sadness in resilient ways.

But I'm also wondering if there is a nuance here? If your intent is to help your SD deal with difficult feelings (ie. she can't see her grandparents), then that's helpful to her. Kids with BPD parents probably struggle more than other kids to develop resilience and a good self esteem. They tend to have a codependent parent who doesn't want the kids to experience difficult feelings, so they don't learn how to self-soothe. If you tell her, "The grands are coming this weekend to spend some time at our house. They're really sad that you won't be here -- you'll be at your moms house, but they'll come again another time just to see you."

So the focus is on telling SD the facts, and making sure she knows she's loved. If she feels sad, that's ok. It's sad when we don't get our way. You can invite her to help problem solve what to do next time. "What should we do next time the Grands are thinking about visiting? Maybe see if they can arrange their trip when you're with us?"

Your SD already knows who is difficult. You don't have to tell her. Present the facts, let her work through the feelings, and invite her to problem solve so she gains some skills doing this for herself.

It's always going to be a constant that biomom is difficult. For what it's worth, my ex would never have agreed to the additional time, no matter how far the grandparents flew. So it's a small consolation that biomom is willing to accommodate the favor.  

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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2014, 01:26:32 AM »

Since it is the daughter and the grandparents who are most important for this situation. You should try to do everything you can to maximize the time they have together.  Keep the daughter in your sights as the priority.  Her BPD-mom is somewhat predictable in terms of what you might expect from her if she chooses to mess your plans up.  For example, in my case, once I say I've got a special circumstance, BPDmom would say or do anything to make it difficult for me.  So if you can drive all the way to pick her up and then all the way to drop her off, then I think it's a good idea.  For me the trick would be to find her home with my kids so I can pick them up.   If she wanted to be difficult, she'd be at the park or the mall during a time she knew I would be arriving in her neighborhood to pick them up. So I tried to always plan ahead, strategically.  It's tricky. 

Again, the priority is the granddaughter.

Best to you.  Hope it goes well.
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gherkins
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« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2014, 11:26:41 AM »

Surprisingly,  the ex made a small concession for us.  We will meet halfway for the drop-off and then we'll drop the kiddo off at her Mom's on Sunday.  That's more than I thought she would do, and it minimizes travel time/expense a little.  Plus, like everyone has pointed out, SD gets to see her grandparents, and both kiddo and Grandma are pretty excited about that.  I think kiddo already has a 2 page list of things she wants to do this weekend.
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