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Author Topic: He Can't Handle Being Told No  (Read 448 times)
vortex of confusion
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« on: September 19, 2014, 05:26:13 PM »

I am working on setting boundaries. I posted yesterday about being angry because of an incident that happened yesterday. Today he wanted to talk. I felt like I was in a position where I could talk to him.

Anyway, the topic of boundaries came up. I told him that the only thing that I really, really want is to be able to say no, especially when it comes to MY body. If I say no about a touch or something that has to do with my body, I want that respected. I do not want to be questioned about it. He tells me the he wanted to know why I didn't want him blowing farts on my belly. He basically needed/wanted to know. He told me that he won't touch me or even try other things because he just can't handle being told NO. In the same conversation, he tells me that he has unmet needs and that he is learning to live with his unmet needs. I felt like he was trying to play the part of the victim.

In the past, I would have given in or tried to JADE. I said nothing. I tried to simply listen and validate. But, I am still left frustrated and wondering if I will be able to stay strong, especially since he has made it perfectly clear that he can't handle being told NO.
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« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2014, 05:46:40 PM »

He tells me the he wanted to know why I didn't want him blowing farts on my belly.

    There has to be a universe, someplace, somewhere where the truly bizarre rules of BPD world are normal and make sense.  Ummm, should ANY ADULT need an explanation as to why the above is inappropriate?  I guess it's like the situation that comes my direction from time to time, where she does something that is universally accepted as hurtful and hateful, and would hate if someone did to her, yet screams at me if I say I won't participate in it.  And what's weird is that they don't like to be told no, but then they may complain and blame you for *not* telling them no.  So later you may be upset about something, such as the pwBPD calling you a name, and you bring it up, and they say it is your fault for not saying "no". 

This is truly a bizarre illness.  Sometimes I feel like I am a character in a science fiction movie trying to crack the code of an alien species. 
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« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2014, 06:05:39 PM »

Excerpt
In the past, I would have given in or tried to JADE. I said nothing. I tried to simply listen and validate. But, I am still left frustrated and wondering if I will be able to stay strong, especially since he has made it perfectly clear that he can't handle being told NO.

Good for the way you handled it!  The truth is he will have to learn to tolerate no, whether he wants to or not.  You can tell him no and realize that the won't like it, but you still  have that right.  Does he have a sponsor?  If all he is doing is 12 step, a sponsor would be vital.  No good SA sponsor would let him get away with the BS that you can't tell him no about anything regarding your own body.
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« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2014, 06:25:15 PM »

Anyway, the topic of boundaries came up. I told him that the only thing that I really, really want is to be able to say no, especially when it comes to MY body. If I say no about a touch or something that has to do with my body, I want that respected. I do not want to be questioned about it.  He told me that he won't touch me or even try other things because He tells me the he wanted to know why I didn't want him blowing farts on my belly. He basically needed/wanted to know.he just can't handle being told NO. In the same conversation, he tells me that he has unmet needs and that he is learning to live with his unmet needs. I felt like he was trying to play the part of the victim.

In the past, I would have given in or tried to JADE. I said nothing. I tried to simply listen and validate. But, I am still left frustrated and wondering if I will be able to stay strong, especially since he has made it perfectly clear that he can't handle being told NO.

Good for you for not JADEing Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I've found that certain things are better addressed (and received by our pwBPD) when 'incident specific', as opposed to a broader sense of being able to say no.  You're certainly able to say no whenever you please Smiling (click to insert in post)  You don't need his permission.

When he asked why you didn't want him blowing farts on your belly, could you give him a reason?  ex: Don't like the way it feels, maybe describe it, that you prefer such and such or... .

That way it doesn't cause a swooping engulfing fear in him to be able to approach you on another day, because now he feels that he can't touch you or try other things because blah blah blah.  His fear about this is very real; he feels rejected.   Whether or not that makes sense to you, or if that was not your intention at all, that's the way he feels.

Welcome to the land of BPD

It's harder to undue this than to state exactly what you meant about that specific incident in the moment, even though you are totally in the right about being able to say no about your body and what you told him makes perfect sense to me-- I would imagine that to him this was wounding and he felt really bad.
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« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2014, 06:56:25 PM »

When he asked why you didn't want him blowing farts on your belly, could you give him a reason?  ex: Don't like the way it feels, maybe describe it, that you prefer such and such or... .

I gave him a reason right after I said no. I told him that my tummy was feeling kind of meh because it is getting close to that time of the month. Then later, he asked me why again. I told him again and brought up the fact that I mentioned it earlier. He claims to have not heard me. And then, I had to reiterate it again today. My answer has not changed. I tried to give him an example to help him understand what I was getting at. I asked him why he will sometimes get upset when the kids jump on him. I tried to help him make the connection by asking him if he liked explaining why he didn't want the kids to jump on him. Sometimes, a person just doesn't feel like being touched.

Excerpt
That way it doesn't cause a swooping engulfing fear in him to be able to approach you on another day, because now he feels that he can't touch you or try other things because blah blah blah.  His fear about this is very real; he feels rejected.   Whether or not that makes sense to you, or if that was not your intention at all, that's the way he feels.

I know what he feels. He tells me repeatedly. If I focus too much on how he feels, then I start feeling bad and guilty and I get lost in the FOG and then I can't keep my boundaries.

Excerpt
It's harder to undue this than to state exactly what you meant about that specific incident in the moment, even though you are totally in the right about being able to say no about your body and what you told him makes perfect sense to me-- I would imagine that to him this was wounding and he felt really bad.

I tried to be specific. I tried to give him a brief explanation without JADEing. I just don't understand how another human being can act like I have mortally wounded him because I did not want farts blown on my belly.
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« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2014, 07:03:43 PM »

I just don't understand how another human being can act like I have mortally wounded him because I did not want farts blown on my belly.

I don't know either, maybe it's just one of those things   La la la, get yourself a nice piece of chocolate for even trying to understand Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2014, 07:21:23 PM »

I don't know either, maybe it's just one of those things   La la la, get yourself a nice piece of chocolate for even trying to understand Smiling (click to insert in post)

LOL. I took the girls and we rented some movies and stocked up on snacks and are having a movie night. Yet another opportunity for me to practice keeping my mouth shut. One of the girls and I made a joke. It was a bit of an inside joke but I knew I was going to hear about it. And I did. He was so curious as to what it was that we were joking about. It was something private between me and my daughter. In the past, I would have tried to explain it or soothe him. I just listened without saying anything. I know him well enough to know that he is going to bring up again at some point. <sigh>
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« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2014, 06:50:45 AM »

  Then later, he asked me why again. I told him again and brought up the fact that I mentioned it earlier. He claims to have not heard me. 

JADE alert... .!  Or boundary alert... .not sure which... .

Why did you tell him again?  What was the upside of telling him again?  What was result?  What other course of action could have you chosen?

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« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2014, 08:22:47 AM »

JADE alert... .!  Or boundary alert... .not sure which... .

I feel like it was a little of both. After I told him again, I immediately thought, "Why the heck did I just do that?" I shouldn't have to explain myself to him.

Excerpt
Why did you tell him again?  What was the upside of telling him again?  What was result?  What other course of action could have you chosen?

I told him again without even thinking. But, I kept it very brief. It was something like, "I thought I told you that my tummy wasn't feeling great." And, I knew that if I didn't, it would have turned into a fight.

In that moment, I couldn't really think of a better alternative. What are some things that I could have said or done that might have been better? I am trying to think and I feel like what I did is the course of action that would cause the least upset. If I tell him no or refuse to answer a question, he gets very upset and very dysregulated. Sometimes it is brief and painless and sometimes it can turn into something huge. As I write that, I realize that part of my reasoning was still part of fog. I was afraid to not give him a brief explanation. I didn't want to deal with the fall out. And, I felt really guilty for saying no because he made such a big deal out of it.
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« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2014, 10:22:07 AM »

I told him that my tummy was feeling kind of meh because it is getting close to that time of the month. Then later, he asked me why again. I told him again and brought up the fact that I mentioned it earlier. He claims to have not heard me.

It is so wired how the facts of a situation just do not make it into the BPD brain. Unless the facts fit their mental construct.
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« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2014, 11:32:51 AM »

 

The "rule" that I think is best to program into your behavior is to answer a question once... .clearly... .honestly... .and then move along.

When they ask again... .you need to find a way to reference your first answer without reanswering... .and without sounding like a smartass... .

This will take practice... .and I'm not that good at it yet either.

So... .maybe a loving pat on the back... some validation and an even answer of "... I'll stick with my first answer... ."... .make sure there is no challenge in your voice... .or "I've thought about it again... .since you brought it up again... and I am confident in my answer... ."

Then when he complains he didn't hear... .doesn't remember... .just validate the frustration and move on... .

If he is demanding to talk about it again... I'd set a time in the future when you will be ready to focus on the conversation... .and ask that he be ready to focus as well.

Don't give in to the immediate demand for a second, third, fourth, fourteenth... .answer... .

I don't see anything wrong with giving in to a demand for a first answer... .just make it clear, honest, and then move along... .if he doesn't pay attention... that is on him.

I'm assuming the goal here is to stop the repetitive pestering... .as in if that is stopped... .your r/s will improve.

Correct?
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« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2014, 12:21:29 PM »

The "rule" that I think is best to program into your behavior is to answer a question once... .clearly... .honestly... .and then move along.

I'll have to remember that. I think I was able to stop after twice. That is doing really, really good for me.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
When they ask again... .you need to find a way to reference your first answer without reanswering... .and without sounding like a smartass... .

This one is going to be a huge struggle. If I am irritated, it seems that when I open my mouth sarcasm, smart ass, or snark comes out. I am doing better but it is so friggin' difficult to keep my cool when he is making a big to do about something that seems so trivial. I have these huge conversations in my head while listening to him because I won't say what I am thinking which is usually something along the lines of, "On what planet are some of these things okay?"

Excerpt
So... .maybe a loving pat on the back... some validation and an even answer of "... I'll stick with my first answer... ."... .make sure there is no challenge in your voice... .or "I've thought about it again... .since you brought it up again... and I am confident in my answer... ."

Hmmm, I can hear the response already as I have tried this in the past. He will ask and I will say, "I thought I told you." His response is usually a very defensive no you didn't and then it progresses from there. Do you have suggestions for possible ways to handle that?

Excerpt
Then when he complains he didn't hear... .doesn't remember... .just validate the frustration and move on... .

How do I validate it without coming across as a total jerk? I am thinking something along the lines of "I am sorry you are frustrated that you didn't hear me but I am not going to repeat myself." Hmmm, I am going to have to think on that and try out some different possibilities.

Excerpt
I'm assuming the goal here is to stop the repetitive pestering... .as in if that is stopped... .your r/s will improve.

Correct?

Hmmm, I hadn't really thought of it like that. I am actually being more self centered than that. The goal is to stop the pestering so that I can set some boundaries and take ownership of myself and my own actions without justifying, arguing, defending, and explaining everything I do. My fear is that if I stop him from pestering and set some boundaries, it will make our relationship worse because he will perceive it as me not caring or being distant. The quieter I become with regards to some of our conversations the more he seems to get nervous.

Oh, and to add to all of this, this morning he tells me how great he is doing because I haven't said anything about his grumpiness. Basically, I am seeing his moodiness and crapulence and am simply not responding or reacting. In the past, when I have kept my mouth shut, he will simply get lazy and stop trying and we end up back in the same cycle. I am trying to stop that and take things one at a time. Right now, I am not seeing how anything will improve our relationship because of some of the things that he has said.

He keeps telling me that he is prepared to live with me as a celebate married man for the rest of his life if he has to OR he will drop hints about how his libido is returning and he is waking up a certain way. And he is getting ready to go on a trip and is talking about his sobriety (from sex addiction) and how he doesn't want to drink because that might make things too tempting for him. That just makes me mad because I feel like he is just trying to guilt me into doing what he wants me to do. And when he is so focused on being unable to handle being told no that basically says that he is going to pressure me to get what he wants no matter what it is. It has always been that way though. If he wants a toy, he will obsess over it until he gets it. If he wants something from me, he will obsess over it and badger me until he gets me to give in. He is planning a trip back to his home town and he talks about non-stop. He doesn't care what the kids and I do while he is gone. We might as well not even exist.
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« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »

 

Excerpt
The goal is to stop the pestering so that I can set some boundaries

I think you are close on a concept here.

I think you want to set a boundary... .so that you can set further boundaries after that... .correct?

Rather than taking one big drastic leap that may lead your hubby to freak out... .a series of smaller... .incremental boundaries... .

Am I on the right track with your thinking... .

More later... .
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« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2014, 06:16:41 PM »

Excerpt
The goal is to stop the pestering so that I can set some boundaries

I think you are close on a concept here.

I think you want to set a boundary... .so that you can set further boundaries after that... .correct?

Rather than taking one big drastic leap that may lead your hubby to freak out... .a series of smaller... .incremental boundaries... .

Am I on the right track with your thinking... .

More later... .

Yes, that is much closer to what I am thinking. I know that I have to do everything with him in baby steps. Too much change all at once will send him into a tizzy and make everything worse on everyone. It is a real balancing act.
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« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2014, 10:11:09 PM »

 

I like the plan... .make sure you are clear headed about how many baby steps forward you are taking... and how many back.

Just make sure that you are making progress... .it sounds like you are... .

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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 10:53:25 PM »

I like the plan... .make sure you are clear headed about how many baby steps forward you are taking... and how many back.

Just make sure that you are making progress... .it sounds like you are...

Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes I feel like my head is going to explode trying to keep myself in check enough to set boundaries while not rocking the boat too much.

He is getting ready to go out of town for a couple of days. We haven't been apart hardly at all in the last year. The girls and I are really looking forward to some time without him around. It is so difficult to stay clear headed when it feels like he is lurking and asking questions and talking non-stop. If he isn't talking non-stop he is buried in his computer games. It feels like there is no middle ground.
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« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2014, 06:57:49 AM »

  It is so difficult to stay clear headed when it feels like he is lurking and asking questions and talking non-stop. If he isn't talking non-stop he is buried in his computer games. It feels like there is no middle ground.

Vortex,

Do you think you have identified the "core issues"... .in your r/s that must get better for long term survival of the r/s... .or for happiness to come back?

I'm getting the vibe from you that this may be THE issue.  In other words... .if the during the day r/s was better... .with true conversation... .true intimate conversation... .respect... .that some of the other issues about sex might resolve.

I was similar... .communication for me is a key... .or core issue.  Plus... .practical thing... .if you can't communicate effectively... then I don't see how problems get worked on...

Thoughts?
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2014, 09:52:59 AM »

Do you think you have identified the "core issues"... .in your r/s that must get better for long term survival of the r/s... .or for happiness to come back?

Hmmm, actually, I don't think I have identified the core issues. It feels like there are too many to deal with at times. The other problem is that my perception of things are so very different from his perception of things. He seems to think and feel that everything is getting so much better between us. He thinks he is doing so great and brags about it frequently. In all honesty, I don't know how our relationship will survive in the long term. I would like for it to but I am still trying to dig my way out of the fog.

Excerpt
I'm getting the vibe from you that this may be THE issue.  In other words... .if the during the day r/s was better... .with true conversation... .true intimate conversation... .respect... .that some of the other issues about sex might resolve.

I think that is somewhat accurate. Even when we do have conversations, I don't feel any intimacy. I am so busy trying not to make things worse and trying to think about how NOT to say or do anything that is going to p*ss him off or make him do his extreme crap. It is very difficult to want to be physical with somebody that won't even ask because he can't take no for an answer. It is difficult to want to be physical with somebody that has in the past only been able to be physical with me if he knew I was physical with somebody else. Things seldom work when he is looking directly at me as his wife rather than as some kind of object or play toy. Heck, I don't think he is capable of having a truly intimate conversation. If I let my guard down and just be myself and speak my mind, then he is going to get upset. That is what usually happens.

Excerpt
I was similar... .communication for me is a key... .or core issue.  Plus... .practical thing... .if you can't communicate effectively... then I don't see how problems get worked on...

Exactly! Most of the time when I try to bring up things that bug me or that I feel need worked on, he gets defensive and gives me examples of why I am wrong or how he has been working so hard. So I just shut up.
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2014, 12:20:22 PM »

Hmmm, actually, I don't think I have identified the core issues. It feels like there are too many to deal with at times. 

Then... I think this is where you need to do some work... .it's not about him... .not about the r/s... .it's about you.

Remember... that identifying your core issue doesn't mean it gets solved right away... but you need to figure out you.

This may take a while... .so lessons and proper "dealing with" the BPD is key to keeping things calm while you figure out you... .

Thoughts?
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2014, 01:41:58 PM »

Then... I think this is where you need to do some work... .it's not about him... .not about the r/s... .it's about you.

Remember... that identifying your core issue doesn't mean it gets solved right away... but you need to figure out you.

This may take a while... .so lessons and proper "dealing with" the BPD is key to keeping things calm while you figure out you... .

Thoughts?

This morning before work, we were sitting on the porch so I tried to broach the subject with him in a delicate manner. I am mad because there is something that I have wanted to do since I found out about it. Instead of helping me try to figure out a way to do it, he planned his trip so that it is almost impossible for me to do the thing that I want to do. I tried to tell him that it really bothered me. He got all defensive and said a bunch of negative things about himself. I cut him off and said, "How in the world are we supposed to have any kind of productive communication when you respond like that? I am not trying to blame or find fault. I want to have a productive conversation." He gets all quiet so I try to start talking again. While I am trying to find a way to say what I want to say without being mean or negative or accusatory, he cuts me off and says he needs to go check something. When he came back, I asked him. ":)o you have any idea how frustrating it is to try to have a conversation with you only to have you get up and walk away in the middle of me trying to talk?" He responded, "No I don't." and added something along the lines of "I'm staying put now."

There were a few times that I did get a little bit snarky or start to lose it. I was proud that I stopped myself and tried to bring the focus back to productive communication. I did tell him that I have a difficult time with emotional intimacy with him because I feel like I cannot talk or say anything. If I try to discuss anything, it puts him in a mood. I feel like my only choice is to be perky and happy and never complain and take care of everything without any help from him but also without any complaint. He has to announce everything that he does to me. Now, he likes to put disclaimers on it and say things like, "I am not telling you because I want to be praised. I am telling you more as an FYI." And he will tell me as an FYI several times over. I try to say "thank you" or "I appreciate it" and leave it at that.

Yes, that is my issue. I have an issue with feeling like I am not heard. I have an issue with feeling like there is only one acceptable way to behave around him (and that is quiet and compliant). As I keep reading and thinking, I keep coming back to the question, "Wouldn't any normal person have an issue with these things? Am I supposed to be some sort of super human? Are the things that I want really that unreasonable?" I have made it so long in my marriage because I am continually trying to work on things and find ways to make things better to no avail. I try to look the other way and simply accept my husband for who he is. When he puts road blocks in the way of me doing things, I try to quietly find ways around them with the help of my family, my kids, and my own creative stubbornness. In all honesty, I don't even feel like there is a relationship half the time because everything is so focused on him and what he wants and what he needs.

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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2014, 04:29:45 PM »

 

MC that focuses on "reflective listening"... .would be very good for you guys... .

You sort of repeat what the other person said... .
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2014, 11:32:46 PM »



MC that focuses on "reflective listening"... .would be very good for you guys... .

You sort of repeat what the other person said... .

What makes you think that would be good for us? I don't understand how us repeating things back to each other would be helpful. He can repeat what I say (some of the time) but that doesn't really make a difference as he tends to put on a real good show. He is great at parroting things back. He can quote movies, remember obscure stuff, and read all sorts of books but when it comes to putting any of it into practice, he can't.
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« Reply #22 on: September 22, 2014, 04:57:19 AM »

believe it or not, but I heard the "farting" story before, as in: how fun is it to hold your gf's head prison under the sheets while farting  

when you hear it told they make it sound like a joke, while it's mainly abusive, controlling, even agressive behaviour, especially when it is done regularly... .

(this didn't happen to me btw, but unfortunately I am the unwilling witness of the behaviour of others around me as some sort of bonus to my own r/s :-( )
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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2014, 06:26:27 AM »



MC that focuses on "reflective listening"... .would be very good for you guys... .

You sort of repeat what the other person said... .

What makes you think that would be good for us? I don't understand how us repeating things back to each other would be helpful. He can repeat what I say (some of the time) but that doesn't really make a difference as he tends to put on a real good show. He is great at parroting things back. He can quote movies, remember obscure stuff, and read all sorts of books but when it comes to putting any of it into practice, he can't.

Because that is the first step towards empathy... .

Step 1 he gets the words right.

step 2... .gets the tone and emphasis right

step 3... .after he repeats it he can explain how this makes you feel...

step 4... .he can explain why it makes you feel that way.

So... .even if he truly is emotionally locked up... .this will help him think through the emotional connection more... .should move the r/s in a good direction... .and the more "true" emotional talk you have... .the less "locked up"... .he should be.

Note:  Step four is huge... .because once he truly can say why... then he can make better assumptions about the rest of your r/s
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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2014, 09:00:24 AM »

Because that is the first step towards empathy... .

Step 1 he gets the words right.

step 2... .gets the tone and emphasis right

step 3... .after he repeats it he can explain how this makes you feel...

step 4... .he can explain why it makes you feel that way.

So... .even if he truly is emotionally locked up... .this will help him think through the emotional connection more... .should move the r/s in a good direction... .and the more "true" emotional talk you have... .the less "locked up"... .he should be.

Note:  Step four is huge... .because once he truly can say why... then he can make better assumptions about the rest of your r/s

I see. I don't have much hope for us seeing any kind of counselor together. He still hasn't gone back to a counselor after three visits.

Last night, I set him off. I was in a bad mood for a host of reasons and I wasn't being careful about what I said or did. I wasn't walking on eggshells at all. I walked over to his computer and he shuts down his browser. I walked away and said, "I see you don't want me seeing what you are doing. I get it." I know I shouldn't have said that but that is how it felt. He then wanted to argue about it and show me his history and tell me that he was actually done on the computer. That turned into a bit of a spat. The kids were wild and didn't want to go to bed. At one point, I was sitting on my lap top typing and doing my thing trying to stay cool. He tells me, "I'll kiss you goodnight when you are done typing." And he did it in a very snarky tone. So, I stopped typing, shut the lap top, and told him that he could kiss me goodnight. He gets all mad and mutters a bunch of stuff. He gets up, gives me a kiss on the forehead that clearly says, "I am so mad." He has a way of giving me passive aggressive kisses. And then he mutters something under is breath so I say, "Excuse me." At which point, he flips me off and walks away. Needless to say, I slept on the coach last night. He asked me why this morning and I told him that I will not sleep in the same bed with somebody that is going to be so rude and disrespectful to me.
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