How are they accountable for their actions?

[mywifecrazy]

I hear this a lot on here. "It's not their fault, they can't help what they do"... .But at the same time "they are accountable for their actions". Exactly how are they accountable for their actions?

In my case my uBPDxw wife has damaged and hurt a lot of people:

False accusations about her Dad

   "         "              "       "   Brother

   "         "              "      X   Boyfriend

   "         "              "      Me

Accusations that could of resulted in any of the above people being thrown in jail !

She is hurting her Mom by painting her Black and abandoning her. Her Mom hasn't seen her in 16 months. Same with her Brother and Sister.

She hurts her kids by not being actively involved in their lives.

Not to mention the COUNTLESS lies she tells everyone.

I'm not not trying to downplay the disorder but I'm just wondering if treating them with kid gloves actually enables the disorder. I'm also wondering if a more tough love approach and calling them out on their lies and behaviors would maybe have them hit rock bottom and seek help.

Just a thought... .MWC... .

[Kwamina]

Hi mywifecrazy

I hear this a lot on here. "It's not their fault, they can't help what they do"... .But at the same time "they are accountable for their actions". Exactly how are they accountable for their actions?

I'm curious, who has told you that people with BPD can't help what they do? People with BPD didn't choose to have this disorder so in that sense I do believe it isn't their fault that they are the way they are. At the same time, it is also true that people with BPD aren't insane, they often act extremely impulsively without considering the (long-term) consequences of their behavior but at other times their behavior involves a lot of planning. Within the context of their BPD I too would say that they can still be held accountable for a lot of their actions. People with BPD might not always know or fully understand why they behave the way they do, however that doesn't mean their actions can't be classified as intentional. This aspect of their behavior can be very frustrating especially since many people with BPD unfortunately are unwilling or unable to acknowledge there's something wrong with them.

I'm not not trying to downplay the disorder but I'm just wondering if treating them with kid gloves actually enables the disorder. I'm also wondering if a more tough love approach and calling them out on their lies and behaviors would maybe have them hit rock bottom and seek help.

Just a thought... .MWC... .

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean here exactly when you say 'treating them with kid gloves'? If you're talking about not defending your personal boundaries and/or validating the invalid by condoning highly inappropriate behavior by them, I would say you would indeed be enabling their disorder and allowing them to continue with their misbehavior. I think it helps to have a good understanding of what we're dealing with and be mindful of how people with BPD think and process things, but that's only part of it. We also gotta be real to them and ourselves about how we feel and think about their behaviors.

[CrystalP]

I have the same question. Police have told me that "being a jerk" isn't illegal.  I believe my sisters actions (screaming at my elderly father daily and doing other awful things) hastened his death as he experienced mini strokes directly afterward.   Now she's focused on  my mother so I contacted APS.   Do I watch her kill both of my parents?

[HappyChappy]

mywifecrazy I’ve had the same thoughts. May interest you that in several murder cases in my country a personality disorder was presented as a reason for diminished responsibilities, but so far it’s always dismissed (as it should).  I think the statement “they didn’t chose to be this way” is also conjecture, as our subconscious mind makes many choises we’re not consciously aware off. But I guess it’s by way of forgiving this action. So Because we can’t change it, we’ll never get a hart felt apology and we have to move on.

So of course they, like we, are responsible. CrystalP you’re right, we can’t stand by, we must get the authorities involved regardless of who is doing the abuse. Wish someone had done that for me when I was a kid. But let’s never forget there are people on this forum who are enlightened enough to have sought help and report improvement for their BPD. But I know my BPDm and NPD bro are a million miles away from admitting they are anything less than perfect.

[mywifecrazy]

Hi mywifecrazy

I hear this a lot on here. "It's not their fault, they can't help what they do"... .But at the same time "they are accountable for their actions". Exactly how are they accountable for their actions?

I'm curious, who has told you that people with BPD can't help what they do?

It just seems to be a general theme I get from reading some posts and reply's on here. Maybe it's just me . Trying to understand WHY they did what they did. Is it too harsh to feel different like... .YOU did it, now YOU need to deal with the consequences of YOUR actions? YOU hurt and alienated everyone who cared about you... .Now that you have your new supply is everyone supposed to forget everything YOU did?

I'm not not trying to downplay the disorder but I'm just wondering if treating them with kid gloves actually enables the disorder. I'm also wondering if a more tough love approach and calling them out on their lies and behaviors would maybe have them hit rock bottom and seek help.

Just a thought... .MWC... .

Could you elaborate a bit on what you mean here exactly when you say 'treating them with kid gloves'?

WHAT I mean by this is not calling them out on their lies. Don't confront a pwBPD  about their lies because they will only distort more and not accept that they lied. Also I wonder if it would help a pwBPD if they were confronted (intervention?) about all the horrible things that have done to hurt people in their lives that have cared about them instead of just walking away from them and letting them go on to repeat the cycle elsewhere.

I'm just wondering some of these things and interested in people's opinions. I would never want my uBPDxw back in any way, shape or form. I relate it to someone who is addicted and always felt tough love gave the addicted person the best chance for recovery. Like in the TV show intervention. Has anyone on these boards ever been involved with an intervention on someone with BPD?

When I'm not hating my uBPDxw for her what she's done to me and my sons I actually do feel sorry for her... .MWC... .

[Harri]

Hi MWC.  I don't think you sound harsh at all.  The behaviors are hurtful and harmful and no one should be able to get away with them IMO.  The thing is though, with my mother at least, there was no point in trying to get her to see or admit to anything.  She was incapable of being wrong and all it did was increase the rage to try to point out her mistakes.  I did learn to speak up and say no, but I never tried to reason with her, or to defuse the situation.  I did not know about things like SET and JADE when she was alive, but looking back, I am fairly certain they would not have worked with her anyway.  Boundaries were the only tool I had... .that and my own voice.   

I agree with you and I too think they should be held accountable for every thing they do... .just like anyone else.  For me, understanding the behaviors is more about being able to not take the abuse and craptacular behaviors personally.  For example, understanding projection was life changing in terms of being able to put hurtful words and actions into the context of ---> "this is not about me.  She can't even see me."  It is pretty hard to take things personally when you realize they can't even see you or hear you.  I would still hurt, and it hurts to realize someone who is supposed to love you can't even see you as being a separate person, but I was no longer devastated by it like I was before I spent time learning about BPD.  Understanding her disorder and how it affected her also made me stop beating my head against the wall in terms of trying to be heard.  Why bother when she *can't* hear me?  What then became important to me and became my focus was to speak up on what was important to me and speaking up for myself. 

The other advantage of understanding her behaviors came a bit later on, after I started saying no, stop, etc., and that advantage was to have understanding and compassion rather than building the anger and resentment I felt (which was pretty intense then and is still there now, but considerably less frequent and less intense.)  They are not mutually exclusive.  I can understand and feel compassion and still hold her accountable for her abuse.  Having understand and compassion for her was really for my own benefit.  I had enough anger and resentment already.

I have seen some posts by people here who are trying to maintain a relationship or who need to have continued contact (ie kids or taking care of elderly BPD parents) where there is benefit in using SET, picking your battles, not confronting etc.  Each situation is different.  I will be honest and tell you I can't read for very long over at the staying board.  I find it very hard not to react and when I feel myself being too triggered, I click away from there.  I would generally not be able to post there without bringing all my baggage along with me at this point.  So I am careful.  I also carefully consider the title of certain posts to help me decide if it would be good for me to read.  Given that my biggest BPD challenge was my mom, I prefer to stay away from the sex threads.   

So I guess what I am saying is that I think there is value in understanding the disorder beyond just helping them.  It is more about helping me to put things into context and not take things personally.

I hope that helps.  I wish you the very best MWC. 

[CrystalP]

I don't take things personally.  Just want it gone.   I'm better off without it (the abuse, rage, lies, etc)

[Harri]

Hi Crystal.  I am glad you do not take it personally.  Maybe because it was my mother I was different for me.  Unfortunately, as long as your mother maintains contact with your sister, and you want to remain in contact with your mother there are fewer options other than what you are already doing.

Is it possible that your mother may benefit from understanding more about BPD and perhaps learning some of the communication techniques?  It might be easier if the two of you could support each other by using the techniques together?  Otherwise it just seems like it would be an exercise in frustration.  You are right when you said in another post it is not fair.  But it is what it is.  I think a lot of your situation hinges on what your mother wants.  Unfortunately it does not seem like she wants to cut your sister out of her life.

[Kwamina]

Hi mywifecrazy,

Thanks for answering my questions.

It just seems to be a general theme I get from reading some posts and reply's on here. Maybe it's just me . Trying to understand WHY they did what they did. Is it too harsh to feel different like... .YOU did it, now YOU need to deal with the consequences of YOUR actions? YOU hurt and alienated everyone who cared about you... .Now that you have your new supply is everyone supposed to forget everything YOU did?

I personally don't think this is too harsh at all. I too believe that you can still hold them accountable for their actions. The 'WHY' question I find very difficult though. I found it very difficult to understand why my BPD relatives behaved the way they did because before I learned about BPD I still viewed and approached them as rational human beings. However now I realize that a better way to view them is as people who's brains are wired completely differently from how 'normal' people are. Through my rational lens their behavior often doesn't seem to make any sense at all, but through the eyes of someone BPD-wired it could very well make complete sense.

WHAT I mean by this is not calling them out on their lies. Don't confront a pwBPD  about their lies because they will only distort more and not accept that they lied. Also I wonder if it would help a pwBPD if they were confronted (intervention?) about all the horrible things that have done to hurt people in their lives that have cared about them instead of just walking away from them and letting them go on to repeat the cycle elsewhere.

I'm just wondering some of these things and interested in people's opinions.

I think it really depends on the person with BPD if an intervention could be successful. There are people with this disorder who have acknowledged their problematic behavior and worked on better managing their thoughts and emotions, unfortunately I can't really say that of my own BPD relatives but I've read the stories of other members. In the case of a person with BPD who has never ever truly acknowledged having any issues and considering the dynamics of BPD, when confronted with all the things they've done the reaction might very well be one of complete denial, extreme victimhood and/or extreme rage. Whenever I confronted my own uBPD mother, I usually either got 'complete denial' or 'extreme victimhood'.

[CrystalP]

Thank you.  You are right. It's different with a sibling than a parent.  Perhaps easier.   I was able to tell her just what I thought, albeit to no avail, but I couldn't do that, wouldn't do that with a parent as it would be disrespectful. 

I've thought about an intervention as well, but after trying to talk to her, she projects the behavior on me, so I would end up being the subject of the intervention!   

Your comments very helpful in that my mom and I now chatting about self help. My mom planning to try therapy.  She will find out soon enough that it isn't she who is selfish, etc... .all the things my sister tells her. 

I used to threaten my sister to keep her away.  In addition to APS, I've called state and local police.  Besides the fact that it only works temporarily, I simply don't have the energy or frankly give a sh!t anymore.    I've just been polite.  you guys know what it's like when they enter a room--that uneasy feeling, so I know she's gonna blow!   When she does, I jump out of my chair like its on fire and put myself behind a closed door.   

BUT now I know what is going on in that head and maybe I can rival the seismologists by predicting earthquakes, er, I mean, her outbursts.     It used to be a complete mystery to me that she would choose an unethical lifestyle and cavort with criminals.  Now I know. 

[funfunctional]

Hi there,

I have never been one to exempt people from their own choices and behavior for an "illness".    Drives me crazy the insanity plea for murder.  WHO in their right mind commits murder?   It can be argued that all people that commit murder have head issues.

We can exercise compassion for people with an illness but we can also keep a safe distance from them when they so choose to hurt us.    If someone has a knife drawn don't we step away?   Even some pepper mace is scary?    Stay in the other room and the other town if possible.

When someone is affecting our everyday life, peace and are own mental health by creating hate and drama and upsetting us that physically is harming us.     The stress wears on our heart, body, mind and at the soul level too.    Our blood pressure rises,  we may over or under eat, drink more alcohol, take a valium... .anxiety meds... .ALL to deal with this person.

I say take the best prescription.  Self preservation and protection and decide on the best boundaries you can establish to keep yourself safe.     

We are ALL accountable for our own actions and behavior.    Maybe if more people walked away from these mentally ill folks they would at least seek help.

Good luck!   

[Harri]

Crystal, Hi!  I am so thrilled that your mom is open to therapy!  I have a soft spot for elderly people (well, just about all people, but I love older folks especially... .unless they are BPD   )  Does she go on the internet at all?  I wonder if she would gain anything by reading here at the site.  Even if you just talk to her about what you learned, she may feel less stressed out and take things less personally.  It must be heartbreaking for her to see her daughter like that and then to know you are suffering as well.  I don't care who it is or what the relationship is, being around people with BPD is hard and it all sucks. 

I've just been polite.  you guys know what it's like when they enter a room--that uneasy feeling, so I know she's gonna blow!   When she does, I jump out of my chair like its on fire and put myself behind a closed door.   

BUT now I know what is going on in that head and maybe I can rival the seismologists by predicting earthquakes, er, I mean, her outbursts.     It used to be a complete mystery to me that she would choose an unethical lifestyle and cavort with criminals.  Now I know.

Oh yeah, I know that feeling of "she's gonna blow" though your wording is much nicer than mine ever was!  LOL  Even if she erupts unexpectedly, remind yourself that she can't even see you... .as you walk away and put yourself behind a closed door of course. 

Best of luck to you and your Mom.