Marriage Counseling

[gomez_addams]

So we had a marriage counseling session today. Not a total waste of time, but I think it'll be mostly fruitless... .

It was a traditional blame-fest. I'm the cause of the depression, anxiety, stress, inability to hold a job, silent treatment, and the reason she doesn't love/like me.

Quick question: "uBPD" means undiagnosed? Want to make sure I have the lingo correct.

First joint session (two weeks ago) I was cautioned about my angry, defensive responses. Today it was my calm, impersonal, insensitive responses. Seriously, I live in the no win zone.

Wife broke down when I told the counselor that "she's sick and needs professional help." I gave the analogy of cancer, broken legs, etc... .As examples of being sick/hurt and needing intensive help.

So I guess the word "sick" is a trigger I'll avoid. But instead of discussing the issue, the rest of the session was about "how" I said it (impersonal, insensitive, uncaring) rather than the fact that my wife is sick and needs help.

If there's ever a specific criticism (you do X and I feel Y) she immediately (or up to a day later, unsolicited) responds with a) it's your fault, or b) it's a migraine/health issue that is not her fault.

The counselor seems very intuitive and intelligent, but I think she's trying to work on our communication skills.

I know I'm hyper-sensitive, thin skinned, and high validation myself. But I feel a bit overwhelmed lately.

I spent the 20-minute car ride home getting criticized, and getting more criticism for not reacting to her criticism. At the end she tried to goad me into yelling/cursing (I have a few times in the past). When I didn't she got out and slammed the car door.

Trying to learn/practice SET, not JADEing, etc... .Validation is hard.

Oh, and one of the weirder symptoms was on display on the ride home. The sense of self one. She's "become 20 different people trying to learn to live with me."

It's hard to put everything into words. Thanks for reading this. Just needed to vent. Trying to avoid feeling like the crazy one.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[takingandsending]

Hi gomez_addams. Your experience sounds familiar to the first several forays into MC with uBPDw and me. I, too, was convinced that nothing remotely positive would come of it. In fact, at one point, the session was such a blamefest that my MC texted me afterwards to share her diagnosis of my wife as BPD - big turning point in my RS. Since then, things have been getting better at MC sessions, primarily because of the lessons I have learned in communication here. So, don't rule out the chance that you can have more meaningful MC sessions. It can happen, once the conflict is reduced a bit. Mind you, they are still a far cry from what I want, but at least my wife is not hostile to the therapist or me for an hour and a half.  

Have you read the workshops on validation, boundaries, and SET? I really recommend them. And please keep posting here. Everyone here needs this sounding board, and we want to know how you are doing.

[gomez_addams]

So, don't rule out the chance that you can have more meaningful MC sessions.

Thanks! I needed that after today.

Have you read the workshops on validation, boundaries, and SET? I really recommend them. And please keep posting here. Everyone here needs this sounding board, and we want to know how you are doing.

I've started reading\watching them. Also re-reading some books my therapist recommended.

[gomez_addams]

... .my MC texted me afterwards to share her diagnosis of my wife as BPD - big turning point in my RS.

I'm going to stick with the MC, but for now I'm going to manage expectations.  The counselor seemed to focus more on how I failed to be sensitive to my wife, calling her "sick, in need of professional help", and less focused on the fact that my wife is sick and in need of professional help.  I laid out the issues in my one-on-one with her last week.  I think she's more in tune with the communications issues in the marriage, and I'll freely admit that I don't always "hear" what people are telling me.

I'm glad that I found the whole session humorous.  Normally in a situation like this I'd be beyond pissed... .

Wife: (for 5 minutes) He's XYZ, he doesn't do ABC, he always EFGs, yadda yadda yadda insult criticize blame.

Me: My wife is sick, and needs help.

Counselor: Let's talk about how you are insensitive to your wife.  You just called her "sick"... .

Like a sitcom, almost.  But I'm sure I'll learn stuff, so I'll keep going.  And you never know... .perhaps it'll open my wife's eyes.  I'm a recovering alcoholic (15 years)... .There were people telling me I needed help long before I was ready to hear them.

[Mrs.Mclost]

Hi gomez_addams,

 My uBPDh & I recently started MC also & your session sounds very familiar. I went by myself last time( I didn't remind him about appt in enough time to get ready & go, my fault) & our counselor asked me if my H would be open to trying any meds. As the weekend went on I was unsure of how to approach the subject ,then my H was having an anxiety attack,  that is  usually followed by depression and said "he needed to get on something" and I of course agreed & told him that the counselor had mentioned that very thing.So a small miracle happened,Yippee!

 Unlike you, I have not said anything to the counselor of the diagnosis I suspect. I guess I want her to figure it out, if she hasn't already. We have only been 4 times so far. I too have a very very hard time with validation, It's soo hard to do when you personally don't agree & when the voice inside your own head is screaming at you. I also am the reason for why he does this or acted like that. Do these peeps ever figure out that other people & situations affect them as much as THEY let them? I did not think that after 31 yrs it would be this difficult, but it does help when you can educate yourself as to where it comes from & why. Keep marching soldier!:) ************Mrs.Mclost

[formflier]

 

I have done MC for years... .various degrees of success. 

Remember MC is about the r/s (relationship)... .not the people.

I would stay away from diagnosing your wife... .focus on how actions or words affect the r/s... .focus on communication and the r/s.

Let your wife's issues present themselves... .otherwise... .it will be you attacking... .not good.

Very powerful when my wife kept stating she didn't need individual work and the MC said it would be a good idea with all that was going on... .

It didn't come from me... .and I was already doing individual work.

One thing that I could suggest you do... .is express how you feel after a blamefest... .don't diagnose her... .just talk about how crushed you feel at the yadaa yadaa yadaa... .that will give MC opportunity to turn it on your wife and ask how that helps... .

One of my favorite phrases is a soft ... .gentle... ."help me understand how yadaa yadaa helps our r/s improve... ."

Thoughts?

[MissyM]

Wife: (for 5 minutes) He's XYZ, he doesn't do ABC, he always EFGs, yadda yadda yadda insult criticize blame.

Me: My wife is sick, and needs help.

Counselor: Let's talk about how you are insensitive to your wife.  You just called her "sick"... .

I would think a counselor (and your wife) would be a lot more receptive to, "I am very worried for my wife.  She has been struggling a lot and I would like to know what I can do to help.  I feel I am not handling it well."  That has been my approach, I was emotional in that I would cry a little but no anger.  Because I was coming across as empathetic and well balanced, the therapists could clearly see what was going on with my dBPDh.  He was not behaving in a calm and empathetic way but erratic and angry.  We were at an intensive and having therapists see that I was not behaving as my dBPDh portrayed me to be, really helped them get a clear picture of what was going on and his illness.

[Zon]

I am currently going to MC.  Most of the sessions resulted in a talking to by my wife afterwards.  I do not want to make generalizations, but it may not matter if you were "insensitive" in your approach; a "talk" may have happened regardless if you were sensitive or not.

I started MC with no real expectations.  I did hope the counselor would see that my wife needs help or anything along those lines.  I did not state my concerns until later at an individual session with him.  He was quite surprised at some of the things I brought to his attention.  However, this did not change his attempt at fixing the communication problems.  At least, that is what it seems his angle is.  He may be approaching her slowly via this avenue to ultimately help her.  I do not know.

[MissyM]

I started MC with no real expectations.  I did hope the counselor would see that my wife needs help or anything along those lines.  I did not state my concerns until later at an individual session with him.  He was quite surprised at some of the things I brought to his attention.  However, this did not change his attempt at fixing the communication problems.  At least, that is what it seems his angle is.  He may be approaching her slowly via this avenue to ultimately help her.  I do not know.

It is my understanding that therapists work very hard to build trust with BPD patients but I have also experienced some really clueless therapists.  My dBPDh and I have probably been to a dozen in the last 17 years, most did not get what the issue was and those that did seemed incapable of handling it.  It really wasn't until we went to one of the top facilities in the US, that we were able to get some good direction (BPD diagnosis) and go from there.

[gomez_addams]

One thing that I could suggest you do... .is express how you feel after a blamefest... .don't diagnose her... .just talk about how crushed you feel at the yadaa yadaa yadaa... .that will give MC opportunity to turn it on your wife and ask how that helps... .

One of my favorite phrases is a soft ... .gentle... ."help me understand how yadaa yadaa helps our r/s improve... ."

Thoughts?

This makes a lot of sense.

I'm glad I found this forum.  I'm otherwise clueless, especially in the heat of the moment.

I'll try that.

[formflier]

 I'm otherwise clueless, especially in the heat of the moment.

Practice it some when she is not around.  Concentrate on being soft... .being gentle... .no "accusation" in your tone.

In the heat of the moment you won't be able to think that through... .practice is needed.

[gomez_addams]

 I'm otherwise clueless, especially in the heat of the moment.

Practice it some when she is not around.  Concentrate on being soft... .being gentle... .no "accusation" in your tone.

In the heat of the moment you won't be able to think that through... .practice is needed.

The calm and quiet gets labeled "condescending"... .Maybe I am, or maybe I'm not. I am so sincerely trying to be supportive and understanding. I'm working on the validation, and avoiding JADEing.

Today I stayed calm, but when she told me I was condescending, I broke down and cried a little. I felt like I was screwing up, despite my best efforts. I was so frustrated.

I told her I didn't mean to be condescending, and that I wanted to be supportive because I loved her. When she replied (interrupted) that I didn't love her, I ended the conversation. Not sure if that was right, but I needed a break.

She's been trying to get me to hit her (or punch a wall, or yell and curse). No history of violence (at all), although a few angry outbursts from me over the past two years (angry JADEing).

I'm typing on my phone, so I'll cut it short and post a longer thread later from home. Just spent the last two or three hours with a friend from church. He's got his Masters in Docisl Work, so he seemed like the best person to vent to (sympathetic, yet calls me on my BS).

I've got some errands to run. I'll be back online later.

Man, I am overwhelmed... .

[formflier]

 I'm working on the validation, and avoiding JADEing.

This is good... .but see below... .I think you did a bit of jadeing... .

Today I stayed calm, but when she told me I was condescending, I broke down and cried a little. I felt like I was screwing up, despite my best efforts. I was so frustrated.

You acted on her "reaction"... .to you staying calm... .BAD  BAD... .  Pick your course of action... .you need to pay attention to what she is doing/saying... but don't "react".  She probably understands that you don't like this... .she accused you of being condescending... .and got the reaction that she was most likely looking for.

I told her I didn't mean to be condescending, and that I wanted to be supportive because I loved her. When she replied (interrupted) that I didn't love her, I ended the conversation. Not sure if that was right, but I needed a break.

JADE alert... . 

My suggestion for the next condescending accusation is to say "I'm sorry your feel that way... "... .  Then announce you are going to get some ice water and bring some back for her... and for you.

Talk about the weather... .your car... .a dishwasher... . 

Anything but argue about if you are condescending or not.

Read up on STOP method of communication when in a high conflict situation.

She's been trying to get me to hit her (or punch a wall, or yell and curse). No history of violence (at all), although a few angry outbursts from me over the past two years (angry JADEing).

How do you know this?  Has she told you?  

I'm typing on my phone, so I'll cut it short and post a longer thread later from home. Just spent the last two or three hours with a friend from church. He's got his Masters in Docisl Work, so he seemed like the best person to vent to (sympathetic, yet calls me on my BS).

I've got some errands to run. I'll be back online later.

Man, I am overwhelmed... .[/quote]

[Indyan]

We tried MC once, back in June. It was a real fiasco. BPDbf spent the hour denying everything, proving I was wrong, making fun of what I said and basically just making me cry during the entire session.

Indeed "the T works on the relationship not the personalities" is a true statement.

The T provided us with boring general advice such as "do not judge what the other is trying to say" and blah blah blah. I'd been hoping for a professional diagnosis (how naive on my part!) and instead the T rejected everything I said.

I told him that BPD bf was obsessed and panicked about the idea of me running away with baby. T answered "So what? He may be afraid of you running away, what's the big deal about it?"

No big deal... .in fact a few days later this escalated to a real paranoia crisis where he phoned the police, his sister and bro in law, and ended up the next day screaming with despair in our garden. He then left for his parents' and I didn't see him for weeks.

I've just finished reading Randi Kreger's book and it does mention that MC is not advised with pwBPD.

I have found a real BPD specialist and went to see him. He told me that the way he does MC is as follows: BPD person sees him about once a week (and sets clearly defined goals), partner sees him about twice a month, and we then see him together once a month to discuss achievements and problems and whether or not goals have been met.

In fact, it's a clever way to drag BPD into therapy. I have no idea whether it will work or not yet - my BPDbf is meeting T on Monday... .

[gomez_addams]

Read up on STOP method of communication when in a high conflict situation.

Will do.  Thanks!

She's been trying to get me to hit her (or punch a wall, or yell and curse). No history of violence (at all), although a few angry outbursts from me over the past two years (angry JADEing).

How do you know this?  Has she told you?  

"I wish you would hit me... ." is what she says.  She claims that is who I really am, and that being calm is being phony, and that she would prefer that I hit her.  Perhaps it's a stretch, and that's not really what she wants... .  But ever since I started staying calm she has been getting more graphic in her descriptions of "who I really am"... .

[formflier]

Read up on STOP method of communication when in a high conflict situation.

Will do.  Thanks!

She's been trying to get me to hit her (or punch a wall, or yell and curse). No history of violence (at all), although a few angry outbursts from me over the past two years (angry JADEing).

How do you know this?  Has she told you?  

"I wish you would hit me... ." is what she says.  She claims that is who I really am, and that being calm is being phony, and that she would prefer that I hit her.  Perhaps it's a stretch, and that's not really what she wants... .  But ever since I started staying calm she has been getting more graphic in her descriptions of "who I really am"... .

Validate her feeling on that... ."I understand you feel... .xyz... ."

then gently ask her how that helps the r/s?

Mind reading is a tricky thing to deal with... .don't directly confront is as this is invalidating... .

Switching gears

MC can work ... .however you need to be aware that the first counselor may not be a good fit... .or the second... .

The important thing is that you both acknowledge the r/s needs some work and are taking steps to work on that.

Keeps your focus in the right direction.

[Indyan]

Wife: (for 5 minutes) He's XYZ, he doesn't do ABC, he always EFGs, yadda yadda yadda insult criticize blame.

Me: My wife is sick, and needs help.

Counselor: Let's talk about how you are insensitive to your wife.  You just called her "sick"... .

   

[Indyan]

Eventually, 2 weeks later (last Monday) uBPDbf went to see the BPD specialist I mentionned, and *sign of relief* REALLY LIKED him!

I'm curious to know (and I won't) what the T told him, because his behaviour has changed dramatically since then. We're having our first MC session this Saturday, I have no idea what to expect.

I think the T MUST be into BPD, or else he/she will just go about those communication tools that WE (the nons) are the only ones who use them... .so what's the point?

[Indyan]

My suggestion for the next condescending accusation is to say "I'm sorry your feel that way... "... .  Then announce you are going to get some ice water and bring some back for her... and for you.

Talk about the weather... .your car... .a dishwasher... . 

Anything but argue about if you are condescending or not.

Read up on STOP method of communication when in a high conflict situation.

Does this REALLY work?

[formflier]

 

Yes... .

STOP

Sorry you feel that way

That's your opinion

Ohh

Perhaps you are right.

It's a way to participate and not give the silent treatment... .without agreeing... .or invalidating.

IMO... .I avoid the last one... .I don't want to give any hint that she may be right... .unless that is true.

I'm also a fan of "help me understand xzy"  Much much better than asking why...   Why sounds like ... .and comes across as a lawyer or court talk

[Indyan]

Thanks Formflier 

Indeed the last one is not for me either!

I'll try the rest.

[formflier]

 

Practice this ahead of time... .outloud... .make sure your emotion is even to slightly sympathetic.

Be very careful about having any kind of snarkiness or smart a$$ in your voice.

[Indyan]

Practice this ahead of time... .outloud... .make sure your emotion is even to slightly sympathetic.

Be very careful about having any kind of snarkiness or smart a$$ in your voice.

Thanks - I'd better practice for MC tomorrow... .I'm getting nervous about it 

[formflier]

 

What are you nervous about... .what do you think will happen?  Maybe we can help you prep

[Indyan]

The situation is hard. My uBPD is still staying away, and the last times we saw each other, things didn't go well (he's very tense, keeps threatening me with baby and house).

We managed to exchange messages this week calmly, at last. But I've no idea what to expect tomorrow, and our unique MC experience was terrible. Although I don't expect the same to take place (this one knows loads about BPD, and he's seen both of us separately), I've no idea what to expect.

I know that the usual therapy program for pwBPD is weekly sessions, and one with spouse every month.

I don't even know whether BPD's intending to see T every week... .

And I don't know if T has told him about BPD... .

I don't want to sound pessimistic once in there, but I can't sound very optimistic either.

I'm also stressed about the trip to go there, as we're taking the train together, and it takes about 1 hour +.

[sweetheart]

Hi Indyan,

I'm not surprised you are nervous I would be too, you have had such a lot to deal with, and still are dealing with it all.

It's difficult as you know with MC because there are lots of contraindications for pw BPD who present as more unstable and volatile in general, which is how your husband has been, so I can understand why you would feel pessimistic. 

You say your MC T is aware of BPD so that is positive, be guided by the T, remember it's about the relationship, not you or your husband. Try and think about the marriage and how you feel about that, how it's changed, what you want for your marriage and how that can be achieved. If you are struggling in the session, tell the T, but remember focus on the relationship, not your husband. I hope that makes sense.

Just to say be careful on the train journey, bring a book/magazine, excuse yourself go for a coffee, three coffees  keep it as low key as possible because your husbands anxieties and emotions will probably be running quite high.

Take really good care of yourself Indyan.  

[formflier]

 

When you get there... .at the start... .ask what to expect.

Make the commitment in your mind to keep coming back.

Whatever you can do to make sure you don't sound like you are accusing your pwBPD of anything is better.

I need help understanding this behavior... .   is much better than

He does xyz because he has BPD... .

If he tries to dominate the session... .ask the counselor to clarify communication rules... .don't confront your hubby on this... .let MC handle that...

[Indyan]

Thank you Sweetheart and Formflier  

Yes, I'd better buy myself a magazine for the train... .and no, I don't intend to talk about BPD for sure.

He and his family have reproached me enough of "saying he was mad".

The good thing is that I trust the therapist. He's a great man, highly experienced, he's spent years working on BPD, is the director of the only BPD association in my country, and provides courses to therapists on the subject... .so if someone should know what to say or not to say, it's him.

The fact that BPDh changed his attitude towards me dramatically after just one session (last Monday) shows how clever and informed the T is... .

But I can't help wondering what BPDh intentions are. Why invite me to the restaurant afterwards? I'll try to be as positive as can be, and not judgemental but it might be hard... .he's gone too, too far.

I've already thought of an answer if T asks what I want/hope from the MC. I'll say "regain trust". As for the rest (marital and family life), I don't hope or want anything at this stage. I had to NOT hope anything in order to survive this chaos.

I also thought of telling the truth like "I know what I DON'T want anymore. I don't want chaos every 3 months or so in my life. I don't want unstable and scary situations for the kids and myself... ."

But I guess that will sound negative, not encouraging enough for poor MPDh *sigh*?

[formflier]

  I'll say "regain trust". As for the rest (marital and family life), I don't hope or want anything at this stage. I had to NOT hope anything in order to survive this chaos.

I also thought of telling the truth like "I know what I DON'T want anymore. I don't want chaos every 3 months or so in my life. I don't want unstable and scary situations for the kids and myself... ."

But I guess that will sound negative, not encouraging enough for poor MPDh *sigh*?

I would shy away from this...

I would recommend "to improve your r/s"

If you are asked for specifics... .then obviously provide them... .

Talking generally is much better because it is harder to disagree with.  Once you get a couple sessions under your belt... .you will get a better feel of how this should go.

Debating facts in MC is a time waster... ."he did xyz... ."  "no i didn't"  etc etc.

[Indyan]

Not even "regain trust", wow you're strict man 

Isn't "improve our relationship" REALLY obvious? I mean, wth would I be doing there if it weren't to improve our r/s?