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Author Topic: Considering Eliminating my BPD ex wife from my daughters lives  (Read 398 times)
willi5046

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« on: September 21, 2014, 10:02:54 AM »

  I have been divorced for 2 years from my ex wife.  That being said, there were several make up events over the first year after our split, so we have actually only been sexually and emotionally uninvolved for about a year.  We have two wonderful daughters that are 7 and 9.  My ex was untreated for a majority of our time together and currently takes only one of the 3 medications prescribed to her. She also has a history of opiate and alcohol abuse. I know that she is drinking again and possibly taking pills. I'm not entirely sure of the latter, but I have my suspicions.

   I obtained custody of my girls when their mother was hospitalized for suicide threats and diagnosed with BPD. I made an agreement with her when I took custody that she would always be able to see them as long as she was continuing her treatment and I didn't feel that they were in any type of physical or emotional danger. Over the past year, I have tried to remain true to my word. Recently, it was brought to my attention by the school counselors that the girls are showing signs of "severe emotional distress".  After meeting with the counselors, we decided that the best thing for the girls would be provide them with a more stable environment during the school week. So, I ended the their visitation with her during the week and only allow them to have contact with her on the weekends. I have also signed them up for independent counseling.

   They have seen so many things. In fact, I'm sure that I only know a small fraction of what they have seen.  My decision to suspend their visitation during the week is recent and, of course, mom went into a huge rage. There is no telling what those kids have heard about me this weekend.  Luckily, I have all week to do damage control before they go back to her.  I've tried to keep her in their life because when she is well, shes a good mother. However, I'm beginning to feel that her presence in their life is hurting more than it is helping.  How do I decide when enough is enough?  I feel as though I'm constantly having to choose the path that is going to hurt my kids the least. I'm exhausted.
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Matt
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 12:26:56 PM »

So legally you are in control - you can decide how much contact they have with their mom?

If their mom has legal rights, like visitation, you might consider filing a motion for a Custody Evaluation, which could include psych evals and substance evals (maybe for both parents, just so you will be seen as very fair).  I did that - cost $5,000 plus $500 for each of our psych evals.  (But I didn't ask for substance evals.)

I like this approach because it's objective - it gets key information, like your ex's mental health and substance use, out in the open.

If you are in complete control, so you don't need the court involved, you might consider talking with your ex, and setting a very clear boundary, and then following up in writing, so there will be no misunderstanding.

For example, you might say, "I have some concerns about substance abuse, psychological issues, and alienation.  I realize I'm not a professional in that field so I don't know anything for sure - it's my perception.  I would like you to get an objective psych evaluation, like the MMPI-2, and a substance screen - you could do the substance screen today so we can put that issue to rest.  Meanwhile, I'm taking the kids to a counselor who will look for signs of alienation.  Let's get all this done as soon as possible and then we can talk about more time with the kids - for now I'll explain to them that they won't be seeing you for the next couple of weeks - I won't go into detail or tell them anything negative about you at all."

Her reaction to that will tell you a lot.  For example, she could get the substance screen - there are places that do that in most cities, because the courts require it of people on probation, parole, etc. - she could get that the same day, which would show you that she is clean and sober.  Or she could turn it back on you and argue about it.

If she has ever had substance problems, but is now clean and sober, she will be self-aware and open about it.  My son is a recovering addict - alcohol and a bunch of other stuff - completely open and honest about it now.  Any denial or attempt to hide things tells you that she is either still using, or at least wants to keep that as an option - she's not really in recovery.

Same thing (kind of) for psych issues - if she is in treatment and committed to getting better, she'll be open and honest about it - "I know I have some issues and I'm working on those." - she should be willing to tell you her therapist's name, and how often she sees her, for example.  If she gets defensive and belligerant - accuses you of stuff - that's a pretty clear indication that she is not really working on herself.

Regarding alienation, the best book I've read on it is ":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak.  One of his main points is that when one parent tries to alienate the kids from the other, usually the kids turn against not only the targeted parent but his whole family too.  So if the kids start to change their way of dealing with you, and they also become more distant from other members of your family, that's a pretty solid sign that alienation is going on.  If you can find a good counselor, and let her know that you are concerned about alienation, that might help, but it could take many months for the counselor to get to know your kids well enough to be sure.
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willi5046

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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 02:33:08 PM »

   She only has legal rights to them on Fridays and every other saturday. I have primary custody and the power to completely eliminate her visitation if I feel that they are in an unsafe environment. If I were to do this, it would stand until she took me back to court to prove otherwise. She can't do that because she hasnt worked in two years, has moved 4 times, and is currently living with a boyfriend that she has only been dating for a few months.   I have allowed her to see them more because it has seemed, until recently, that things were heading in the right direction. She readily admits that she has had some problems in the past and says that she is working on those problems.  The problem being, is that she says a lot of things.  I know that she is not regularly seeing a therapist.  She talks to a Dr. once a month so that she can get her anti depression meds refilled, but that is about it. I've tried to talk with her in the past and she just simply tells me that Just because I have custody of the children I can't control every aspect of her life.

   She admitted to drinking during our meeting with the school counselors, but refuses to admit that it is an issue. She agreed not drink when the children were there, but flat out told the counselor that She would do whatever she wanted when the kids were with me. Shes still very angry with me and a very defiant person in general. She has tried the alienation previously, but my daughters didn't act like it phased them.  They told me that she said that I abandoned my family and that I was the reason that she and I weren't married any longer. All I could think to do was to tell them that I would never abandon them and to look at the evidence as proof that I loved them.  It seemed to work and I haven't noticed any lasting effects.

I've already talked to my attorney and he says that I have enough to completely take her out of the picture, legally speaking.  Even after everything, I'm still not sure that is the right decision for my children.

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Matt
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2014, 03:27:50 PM »

Boundaries:  "If you do X I will do Y."  Not an attempt to convince the other person to do what you want, but a statement of what you will do.

And you don't necessarily state the boundary out loud.  You can just do it.  My ex used to rant at me over the phone.  I learned to hang up when that happened.  I never told her, "If you speak to me inappropriately I will hang up on you.", I just did it - that was the best way to communicate my boundary.  (And it worked.)

So... .if you state, "I have these concerns.  If you and I can work through these together, then visitation can resume just as it has been.  Until then, no visitation."  A statement of what you will do - then do it.  And be prepared for whichever way it goes... .
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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2014, 08:33:37 PM »

I've already talked to my attorney and he says that I have enough to completely take her out of the picture, legally speaking.  Even after everything, I'm still not sure that is the right decision for my children.

I'm in the same position as you willi5046. I go back to court at the end of the month to terminate visitation.

I found it harder to start the process of terminating visitation than I did leaving the marriage. It felt like I was making the decision for S13 to divorce his dad, and I didn't know if that should be my choice to make. You put it really well when you said that you have to choose the path that is going to hurt your kids the least.

I'm not advocating one thing or another,  only to raise some possibilities that may relieve you of the burden that goes with this kind of decision. Have you thought about asking the court to order supervised visitation or day visits only (this will help prevent the kids from the sleeping arrangements they have in the apartment, and being subject to seeing their mom have sex with her boyfriend). It sounds like your kids are giving you very strong signals that they need some protection right now. Is your sense that they need a complete break? Hard question to answer, I know.

I have a slightly different situation than you, so this might not apply, but my son hasn't seen his dad for 7 months and the change in him is profound. He's a different kid. One thing that was really poisoning him was the alienation. It wasn't effective in the sense that Matt is talking about -- N/BPDx wasn't able to turn S13 against me and my family. But there is a lot of toxic damage even in so-called minor alienation, and the emotional turmoil can be devastating. Add alcohol and substance abuse, and it was a perfect storm of emotional distress for S13. He only saw his dad for 4 hours Sat Sun every other week. So 16 hours a month.

Not seeing his dad is a relief. It's complex -- S13 hates that he's the child of divorced parents, and he feels shame about his dad. He has some anxiety that he'll end up like his dad, and he doesn't like the fact that I have a boyfriend. None of this is easy. But for whatever reason, taking a break from his dad (and getting a lot of therapy) has given him something I'm having a hard time describing. It's like he became solid... .if that makes sense. He is processing some pretty big feelings, without having a lot of ongoing stresses with regular visits.

It's a hard decision to make. And no one can answer it for you.  :'(


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Matt
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2014, 09:30:49 PM »

I think one key to this is to very, very carefully examine your own motives, and make sure to separate any anger or frustration you still are dealing with - negative emotions associated with your ex - from your judgment about what is best for the kids, short- and long-term.  That may be hard!

If you can focus only on what is best for the kids, and not allow your judgment to be influenced by everything your ex has put you through, then you'll have the answer.  (But that may be easier said than done!)
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willi5046

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« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2014, 09:35:48 PM »

  As to the issue of them needing a complete break, I can't be sure.  My oldest is open about her feelings and has told me that She would prefer to only see her mother on the weekends, so it is relatively clear where she stands.  My youngest, however, is the one that most concerns me. She does not express her feelings very well and is becoming increasingly withdrawn and is even showing signs of depression. She is a sweet kid and has apparently told the counselor that she feels like nothing bad can happen when she is with me. Taking those things into consideration, I'm leaning toward the fact that they would benefit from a complete break.

 On the flip side of that, both of the kids have previously acted like they REALLY like mom's new boyfriend and the situation that she is in. They would come home talking about him teaching them how to skateboard and going on walks with Rob and mom and all these wonderful things. On the surface, it seemed like a positive environment for them. I was actually excited about the prospect of their mother repairing the damage done and getting the crazy train back on the tracks. The new boyfriend seems like a decent guy ( I'm a veteran Police Officer, so believe me, Ive done some research on the man). Things were going swimmingly until the counselor called and informed me of the issues at school. I was blindsided and thrown back into pit of uncertainty and worry that, unfortunately, I have become very familiar with. Its a case of some severely mixed signals.

  We've gone the supervised visitation route in the past and it seemed more difficult on the kids than anything else so I decided to discontinue that.  I will say this, she didn't see them for 2 months after her hospitalization and I noticed a marked improvement in their attitudes and behavior during the time with me.  That being said, the situation was different in that in the few months prior to that happening things were REALLY bad. She was more out of control than she's ever been and had turned into a complete monster.  Recently, things haven't been that bad to my knowledge. She's been Mom again.  I've even noticed the improvements in the conversations that I've had with her. It was even difficult to make the decision to take away her time during the week because I didn't want to start a war over something that wasn't related to her.  I tried to speak with her about the situation, voice my concerns, and hopefully come to a joint agreement about how to stabilize their schedule, but was met with screaming and blame. So, because I couldn't get her to speak to me like a human being and participate in the decision making process, I made an executive decision. I feel like I've made the right choice, but I'm not sure where to go from here.
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willi5046

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« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2014, 09:40:00 PM »

Matt, I've tried to make a conscious effort to do just that. You are correct… that has proven to be very difficult.  I've reached the point now where I'm worried that I've been focused too intently on that task.  I couldn't see the forest through the trees, so to speak, and now my children are suffering because of my indecision. My greatest fear is that I've caused them severe damage by trying not to damage them, if that makes sense.
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ennie
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 09:53:55 AM »

I just wanted to chime in on the idea that custody evaluation is objective, as my DH got one with that belief. He did not want to be the one to make the call. Sure enough, mom came out looking nuts, he came out looking good, so the psych. asked him what he thought should happen and wrote that verbatim into the eval... .sadly, DH was not certain so said that if BPD ex could get treatment,  he would want 50/50, otherwise more custody. So we have a difficult to enforce ct order that she be in therapy and 50/50.

DH got much better and objective help deciding from the kids' T, his T, and a good friend ah used to serve as an atty for battered women. I think advice from caring professionals who have no authority in your case is a great place to develop your sense of what is best for the kids and you should be very clear about what you want and honk is best entering into the custody eval process, IMO.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 03:52:03 PM »

My greatest fear is that I've caused them severe damage by trying not to damage them, if that makes sense.

You phrased this in a way that really hit home for me. When I went off in a corner and tried to think and feel my way through this, I had to let go of other people's advice to an extent and just focus on what I saw going on with S13. Some kids may be more predisposed to depression or anxiety (sensitive genotype), and then there are varying degrees of BPD substance abuse or living conditions or comorbid mental illnesses that may influence what is right for your kids.

You do have some degree of control at this point, without having to go to court for it, is that correct? At least in terms of limiting visitation? Perhaps give your kids a break for the time being and work closely with the school counselor to see if there is a change in behavior. With S13, his behavior was nosediving when his dad was dysregulating particularly badly, and when visitation ceased, S13 started to pull together in a way that told me it was the right decision.

I will say that I'm so grateful S13 was in therapy and that I had a skilled therapist who helped me navigate all of this. If I had just yanked visitation out and not gotten therapeutic feedback, it might've been a lot less positive.





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willi5046

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« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2014, 04:21:23 PM »

So, I was informed today that my ex is marrying the man that she has been dating for about 3 months... .Just when I think we've reached the pinnacle of weird, she takes it a step further.
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