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Author Topic: The undeniable NEED to argue  (Read 846 times)
nightmoves
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« on: September 21, 2014, 07:11:05 PM »

My BPDw will stridently attempt to create an argument out of nothing when she so deems.

It "seems" that she actually "needs" to do this.

It is almost as though she is internally angry at something that is NOT really in the environment - but rather - in her head or emotions.

I have gotten MUCH better at "seeing" this coming.

I can EVEN just agree with anything she is saying... .yet she will then irrationally claim that I am "arguing with her".

Can anyone relate?

Can anyone actually theorize at WHAT this is that promotes or requires this?
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 09:20:12 PM »

My BPDw will stridently attempt to create an argument out of nothing when she so deems.

It "seems" that she actually "needs" to do this.

It is almost as though she is internally angry at something that is NOT really in the environment - but rather - in her head or emotions.

I have gotten MUCH better at "seeing" this coming.

I can EVEN just agree with anything she is saying... .yet she will then irrationally claim that I am "arguing with her".

Can anyone relate?

Can anyone actually theorize at WHAT this is that promotes or requires this?

You have noticed a critical thing in BPD behavior... .and  it is good that you can see it coming.

Please read the lessons... .focus on SET and validation when you see it coming.

DO NOT argue... .

That is what they want... .

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meerkat1
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« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2014, 11:49:27 AM »

Nightmoves - Is my wife leading a second life with you? If so, please keep her. And sorry I feel bad for you.

Seriously, I see this happening a lot, too. Sometimes I can see it coming, other times I don't. Don't know if my guard is down those times, or what clues I miss. Either way, she will just continue to fight. I can SET and validate til I am blue in the face. She will just find another reason to fight. All the while, she blames me for fighting.

Also, please clear out your inbox.
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« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 11:51:42 AM »

  All the while, she blames me for fighting.

pwBPD operate and argue with "kernels of truth"... .most of what they say is fantasy... .but a smidgen is true.

In this case... .can you identify the kernel of truth in your wife's arguments that you get blamed for fighting?

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meerkat1
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 11:58:21 AM »

I get blamed cause I am still there?

I sympathize, I show empathy, i validate, I do 'not invalidate'. I tell her I love her, she just finds reasons to support why that is not true. I don't even argue with those reasons. I just validate them. I can agree with things.

So not sure what her kernel of truth could even be.
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« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 12:27:42 PM »

Perhaps this is a stupid question but... .why?   Why do they feel compelled to argue and be critical?  Is it projection of their anger with themselves?
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meerkat1
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 12:44:38 PM »

In my case, I think she is trying to get me to save her. Save her from her feelings. Save her from her own guilt and sense of worthlessness.

Maybe that is what you mean, formflier, her kernel of truth is I am not saving her.
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 12:57:30 PM »

I can relate. I feel like he has to find a way to contradict me even if it is something really small. I referred to a pair of suspenders as suspenders and he had to point out that there was actually another term for them. A term that I had never heard and the claims to have used a lot. That was a new one on me. It seems like he is never content to let me or the kids say or do anything without finding a way to correct us, argue, or offer some sort of alternative.

Oh, and I have to be honest there are times when I welcome the arguing because it sure beats the heck out of being completely ignored. It seems that there are only two extremes. One is having him ignore me and bury himself in his games and the other extreme is him being all up in my area talking and contradicting and acting like a little kid. But, at least that is something. There are times when it feels like we would have absolutely NOTHING to talk about if we weren't arguing.
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »

Maybe that is what you mean, formflier, her kernel of truth is I am not saving her.

Nope... .the kernel of truth is that you were fighting... .so there is some truth to you being responsible for that.

We all know she goaded... .and did all kinds of craziness to get you going... .and that is the "real" truth.

Your job as a "non" is to deny her the kernel... .don't fight.

Use a boundary and walk away.  Give her attention and validation for good behavior... .

Give no reaction for bad... .

Deny her the kernel... .
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 03:48:58 PM »

I can relate. I feel like he has to find a way to contradict me even if it is something really small. I referred to a pair of suspenders as suspenders and he had to point out that there was actually another term for them. A term that I had never heard and the claims to have used a lot. That was a new one on me. It seems like he is never content to let me or the kids say or do anything without finding a way to correct us, argue, or offer some sort of alternative.

Oh, and I have to be honest there are times when I welcome the arguing because it sure beats the heck out of being completely ignored. It seems that there are only two extremes. One is having him ignore me and bury himself in his games and the other extreme is him being all up in my area talking and contradicting and acting like a little kid. But, at least that is something. There are times when it feels like we would have absolutely NOTHING to talk about if we weren't arguing.

Vortex,

Be conscious and aware of finding "middle ground" to talk about things.  When that happens... .dump in lots of positive reinforcement... .

At the extremes... .show no reaction... .

This will take a while... .but eventually... .he will seek out the middle ground... because that is where the attention is... .

Thoughts?
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 04:42:45 PM »

I think for pwBPD, arguing is the kind of "safety valve".  They typically stew in their own heads, hating the world, hating themselves.  It eventually reaches a limit, and it comes out somehow, someway.  I think to some extent we are all like this.  The difference between nons and pwBPD is that nons tend to have more constructive outlets, and tend to build up their distresses at a lower rate, solving many of our own issues as we go about our lives.  But, I think the arguing is on the same par with self harming and drugs use for pwBPD.  The arguing is part of the cycle of them returning to "baseline" (whatever that is for them).  It's an outward expression of their internal turmoil.

I think in a functional situation with a BPD partner, we need to recognize the cycle.  it's best if we don't participate in their arguments, let them do their thing while we do ours, and eventually they work themselves out and return to baseline.  They tend to return to baseline quicker if we don't engage them, don't say things to keep the argument going, don't expect apologies or them to admit their abuse.  It's a tough cycle to live through, and the above situation doesn't always happen.  Sometimes with the best of our efforts the rage and the arguing continues for weeks.
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 04:59:17 PM »

@Nightmoves there are just times where they want to argue. I can see it coming now with my husband, and what i try to do is find one part of his arguing I can agree with, and tell him he is right on that point, and that usually clams him back down. It's detective work with them, because they make facts up to support themselves.

IE Saturday night my husband wanted to start yelling at me because we went to a concert Wednesday night, and we left early because he said he was hungry and his back hurt. What actually happened is when he had gone outside to smoke, a woman shoved her way in front me, looked at me and flipped her hair in my face. The guy next to me tapped me and my shoulder and pointed at the lady and said really? I said I know, right? When my husband got back, I told him what happened, irritated but not angry. My mistake. To him irritation=anger.

Because of that, he tried yelling at me saying how much I embarrassed him, that I shouldn't have gotten angry and tapped that woman on the shoulder and told her to knock it off, because 20 people around us were shaking their heads at me.

None of that happened.

Listening to what he said, I started to try to justify myself, then remembered that wouldn't work. So I listened again. The kernel was the perceived embarrassment. I agreed that I should not have let it bother me, because I shouldn't have. I also told him if something similar happens, I won't say anything at all since it bothers him.

He went on to tell me WHY it shouldn't have bothered me, and why I shouldn't be upset, because it's a concert, people bump into each other, blah blah. I always find this the most ironic thing, since he's always telling me how no one can tell him how to feel. But hey... .that's BPD,

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« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 05:50:38 PM »

Vortex,

Be conscious and aware of finding "middle ground" to talk about things.  When that happens... .dump in lots of positive reinforcement... .

At the extremes... .show no reaction... .

This will take a while... .but eventually... .he will seek out the middle ground... because that is where the attention is... .

Thoughts?

That makes sense but is much easier said than done. I sometimes have a difficult time being consistent because there are times when I am tired or am feeling out of sorts for some reason and I react. I am trying to look for patterns in my own behavior so that I can find that middle ground but there are times when I struggle with that. I have been reading the lessons on how to stop some of these cycles. It feels like I have been trying a lot of these things for years. I will do really well for a while and then it feels like I get worn down and slip right back into the cycle.
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« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 11:29:13 PM »

  then it feels like I get worn down and slip right back into the cycle.

Which is why you see lots of people imploring people to focus on self care... .getting strong... ."detaching with love"... .etc etc.

When a "non" is educated about BPD... .has plenty of sleep... .not hungry... .and is in a good mood... .the battle usually goes pretty well.

Take out one of those variables... .or... heaven forbid... .two of them... .and "nons" usually make things worse.

Read up on "intermittent reinforcement"  let me know what you think... .

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nightmoves
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« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 09:01:18 AM »

Great posts.

I guess what I am searching for is the WHY?

WHY do they have such a need to get into an argument... .gbet angry at the non... .find turmoil.

I think that Maxsterling above has explained how it feels for me as well.

It seems that there is a turmoil that is happening within my W emotionally. In simple sense - it seems that she NEEDS a "reason" for that turmoil. Something OTHER than her issues or her inability to cope.

So by picking an argument with me. OR at a minumum "deciding" that I have done something wrong... .or to be blamed for... .she gives herself the "reason" she is upside down mentally.

Now that I am at a minimum better at this... .and can NOT get totally (still partially... .;-) sucked into it... .it TRULY seems preposterous.

The better I have gotten to NOT engage or even "support"... .when I see it coming... .the MORE outlandish the entire thing seems.

IF - I revisit it the next day... .she COMPLETELY denies that she was coming at me... .AND (this is even the biggest irrational part of it) ... .she will claim that I was "coming at her"... .or I was ... ."being mean to her"... .

I would think that is the same path... .NOW ... .seeing a bit that she was irrational and the entire episode was without merit... .she now MUST say I was the cause.

AS I have said... .thanks in part to this board and the incredible insight found here and skills/tools... .I have gotten better at dealing with this.

But - I must admit - sometimes I just get TIRED of it. And when I get tired... .I seem to "see it" as just wrong. Wrong to be the target. Wrong to be raged at. Wrong to be blamed. JUST - to make her feel better and not look at herself.

I read these posts ... .and understand the use of JADE... .the FOG... .etc... etc.

AND I appreciate the tools.

But when I read this thread... .I get exhausted and depressed.

To come to terms with the fact that my W with likely NEVER seek any help for this. Let alone even acknowledge it.

Means that it is likely forever.

To spend a life... .without true closeness... .affection... .sharing... .CALMNESS... .

and instead... .working SO SO hard to use the tools a non must employ SIMPLY to keep a lid on things... .

Makes me incredibly sad.


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AnnaK
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« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 09:54:59 AM »

I call this "baiting" - i mean, into a fight.

The role of the "non" in this little game is to find a way to avoid real anger.

If you are angry, indignant or tense (let along guilty), you obviously can be of little help making sense of what is bothering your partner - and he needs this, someone to understand and help him/her make sense of internal emotional discomfort that he cant name.

For some time i was surprised why i fight so much - until i learned to recognise the pattern of baiting - they have really good skills in this game, and they keep searching for better ways to bait - your insecurities, guilt feelings and such.

Their problems make them really excellent "insecurity hunters"

If you got angry - congrats, they hunted your insecurity, you can now deal with it
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AnnaK
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« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 10:03:45 AM »

By the way professional psychologists do the same - if something makes a client angry, there must be a problem there, let's dig deeper.

So in fact it's quite interesting to observe how you react to them baiting - it gives real interesting information about your own self.

With us it's like never ending proccess - he finds a way to bait me - I react. I make a point. I rethink it and create a mental defense line that allows me to take it easy next time. Next time he brings it up again, but he senses that i take it easy. Then he keeps trying other things, old and new, to find that spot where it would hurt me again.

It seems like he never gets tired of this type of experimenting, although i have fixed quite a lot of holes in my self-esteem by now
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meerkat1
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« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 10:04:54 AM »

Nightmoves - I am having similar feelings of despair.

I can't understand the emotional outbursts or where they come from.

More importantly, I am just sad to think this may be it. That this is what my life has been, worse over the last few years, and it will continue to stay the same or even get worse. I read about all these things 'nons' should do to defuse the situation and validate the feelings. I am not sure I can just keep doing that. I can't be me. I can't joke around. I can't relax, always need to be on guard for what her feeling is and how I should respond. I can't do simple things around the house. I have to drop meetings in the middle at work. I really can't do anything, but sit and wait til the next episode and be right there for her. To 'soothe'.

I just can't see that she will ever be able to self soothe. I mean how long do I give this?

The last month and half have been the most up and down ever. Once I started learning how to better communicate, she was nice to me, a really big improvement. I even started to get to point where I thought we could talk about our issues and needs without fear. That only lasted a few weeks, then bam! Sucker punch. Instant dis regulation beyond control. And those things I thought we could talk about without fear ... .She used those against me, too. So in essence I learned that even when things are well I can't talk about anything to do with my needs or feelings without the fear.

I think I may change jobs. Start working at a pharmaceutical company or university with the sole purpose of finding a drug to battle this illness. Ever see Lorenzo's Oil? or Dallas Buyers Club is similar I suppose, too.

The sole burden of this illness cannot rely on the non, basically training the BPD like a dog to respond to reinforcement. Do BPD's have a smaller brain than normal humans or something? They have to take responsibility for their actions, too. Just like the rest of us!

I am sitting here at work today. Doing nothing but reading about BPD. I can't work. At least my boss knows it and is helping to cover for me.

I am sitting here waiting til my wife sends a text that shows she is calmed down. The last text she sent me, seemed to be a bait, I told her she was baiting me (see other post). I left it at that, said nothing more. She bombed my phone with texts of rants. Clearly went off the deep end again. I did not respond.
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AnnaK
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« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 10:21:57 AM »

Nightmoves - I am having similar feelings of despair.

I can't understand the emotional outbursts or where they come from.

More importantly, I am just sad to think this may be it. That this is what my life has been, worse over the last few years, and it will continue to stay the same or even get worse. I read about all these things 'nons' should do to defuse the situation and validate the feelings. I am not sure I can just keep doing that. I can't be me. I can't joke around. I can't relax, always need to be on guard for what her feeling is and how I should respond. I can't do simple things around the house. I have to drop meetings in the middle at work. I really can't do anything, but sit and wait til the next episode and be right there for her. To 'soothe'.

I just can't see that she will ever be able to self soothe. I mean how long do I give this?

The last month and half have been the most up and down ever. Once I started learning how to better communicate, she was nice to me, a really big improvement. I even started to get to point where I thought we could talk about our issues and needs without fear. That only lasted a few weeks, then bam! Sucker punch. Instant dis regulation beyond control. And those things I thought we could talk about without fear ... .She used those against me, too. So in essence I learned that even when things are well I can't talk about anything to do with my needs or feelings without the fear.

I think I may change jobs. Start working at a pharmaceutical company or university with the sole purpose of finding a drug to battle this illness. Ever see Lorenzo's Oil?

The sole burden of this illness cannot rely on the non, basically training the BPD like a dog to respond to reinforcement.

I am sitting here at work today. Doing nothing but reading about BPD. I can't work. At least my boss knows it and is helping to cover for me.

I am sitting here waiting til my wife sends a text that shows she is calmed down. The last text she sent me, seemed to be a bait, I told her she was baiting me (see other post). I left it at that, said nothing more. She bombed my phone with texts of rants. Clearly went off the deep end again. I did not respond.

Why are you afraid of her dysregulations? Somehow she was living before you, right? You can make her a FAVOUR of soothing if you have happened by, but why do you feel obliged to run out of the meeting with the purpose of 'soothing' her?

I don't know your wife, but if you don't drop everything and run to rescue, how do you think, will she survive until you decide to show up (such as in the evening)?

She has BPD, it's quite uncomfortable thing to have - but they are not even considered mentally impaired by law - so they are perfectly capable to take care of themselves if not immediately rescued.
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« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 10:25:30 AM »

The sole burden of this illness cannot rely on the non, basically training the BPD like a dog to respond to reinforcement.

I had that same thought the other night after reading about intermittent reinforcement. Nons are in essence making things worse because we are not 100 percent consistent because we are human. So many of the things recommended do sound exactly like training dog. I have a real problem with that as I have read books about how constant rewards can completely eliminate internal motivations and the only reason to do things is to chase the carrots. I really question my ability to stay with somebody that is doing nothing more than chasing carrots. Some of the things recommended here go against a whole lot of my core beliefs.
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AnnaK
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« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2014, 10:29:48 AM »

Nightmoves - I am having similar feelings of despair.

I can't understand the emotional outbursts or where they come from.

More importantly, I am just sad to think this may be it. That this is what my life has been, worse over the last few years, and it will continue to stay the same or even get worse. I read about all these things 'nons' should do to defuse the situation and validate the feelings. I am not sure I can just keep doing that. I can't be me. I can't joke around. I can't relax, always need to be on guard for what her feeling is and how I should respond. I can't do simple things around the house. I have to drop meetings in the middle at work. I really can't do anything, but sit and wait til the next episode and be right there for her. To 'soothe'.

I just can't see that she will ever be able to self soothe. I mean how long do I give this?

The last month and half have been the most up and down ever. Once I started learning how to better communicate, she was nice to me, a really big improvement. I even started to get to point where I thought we could talk about our issues and needs without fear. That only lasted a few weeks, then bam! Sucker punch. Instant dis regulation beyond control. And those things I thought we could talk about without fear ... .She used those against me, too. So in essence I learned that even when things are well I can't talk about anything to do with my needs or feelings without the fear.

I think I may change jobs. Start working at a pharmaceutical company or university with the sole purpose of finding a drug to battle this illness. Ever see Lorenzo's Oil? or Dallas Buyers Club is similar I suppose, too.

The sole burden of this illness cannot rely on the non, basically training the BPD like a dog to respond to reinforcement. Do BPD's have a smaller brain than normal humans or something? They have to take responsibility for their actions, too. Just like the rest of us!

I am sitting here at work today. Doing nothing but reading about BPD. I can't work. At least my boss knows it and is helping to cover for me.

I am sitting here waiting til my wife sends a text that shows she is calmed down. The last text she sent me, seemed to be a bait, I told her she was baiting me (see other post). I left it at that, said nothing more. She bombed my phone with texts of rants. Clearly went off the deep end again. I did not respond.

To compare... .I work from home. If my bf comes around with the purpose to create a little drama during my work time, I just cut it right there - man, I am working now, if you don't let me work, I won't pay our rent, and then we are going to have much more specific and immediate problems than the one you are trying to discuss. Such as living on the street.

So I'll fight with you after seven pm, if you will still be willing.

And unless there is real emergency (which usually does not happen), I am pretty much unavailable. If needed - I lock my door. If has to be - in spite of him holding my door (I am physically quite strong). Then if it has to be - I take a Valeriana root pill, and just concentrate on my work.

I don't know if it's cruel - but my dad was dealing the same way with my mom (who is not the most rational woman out there), and it always worked just fine.

I consider fights about nothing an entertainment. And work is my immediate obligation. So you choose, what should come first.
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« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2014, 10:37:33 AM »

Why afraid of the dsyregulations?

I guess it is the non stop raging in my face. It is the feeling that I get, the holding back of my own anger and feelings. The feeling of total chaos when it happens. The feeling that there is no way out.  A person can only take so much abuse.

Last time I had to call police, and they blame me, like I am a criminal. I am like I called you! Not my wife, me, I called, cause she was a raging lunatic.

So me not dropping everything to help her is an extremely high chance of her going into one of these rages. I am not rescuing her, so much as rescuing me and the rest of my family. They are unstoppable and last for days at a time. The last one before this, was in August, while on vacation. A beautiful beach, all to ourselves, perfect weather. And she blew up the instant we walked into our rental and a screen door was damaged (not by us). She could not call the agency to complain, so I had to, and of course I have to handle it with all the emotion, she has. Whole vacation ruined , dysregulated the entire week, would not come out of it. My poor son just curled up on a couch for most of the week. He did not want to go down to ocean, I had to force him a couple times to just go.
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« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2014, 10:45:25 AM »

Why afraid of the dsyregulations?

I guess it is the non stop raging in my face. It is the feeling that I get, the holding back of my own anger and feelings. The feeling of total chaos when it happens. The feeling that there is no way out.  A person can only take so much abuse.

Last time I had to call police, and they blame me, like I am a criminal. I am like I called you! Not my wife, me, I called, cause she was a raging lunatic.

So me not dropping everything to help her is an extremely high chance of her going into one of these rages. I am not rescuing her, so much as rescuing me and the rest of my family. They are unstoppable and last for days at a time. The last one before this, was in August, while on vacation. A beautiful beach, all to ourselves, perfect weather. And she blew up the instant we walked into our rental and a screen door was damaged (not by us). She could not call the agency to complain, so I had to, and of course I have to handle it with all the emotion, she has. Whole vacation ruined , dysregulated the entire week, would not come out of it. My poor son just curled up on a couch for most of the week. He did not want to go down to ocean, I had to force him a couple times to just go.

(next time call ambulance, not police)

But again, it's just a woman yelling in loud voice. Why are you afraid of it? What's the worst she can do? And what will happen, if you just stop being afraid?

Due to my dad never raising voice, except occasional snap, I have never seen a raging man before - so such a wonderful thing makes me surprised if anything (like if he were to walk on his hands, for example - it is not quite understandable what he wants to achieve - but reasonably safe and a little amusing).
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meerkat1
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« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2014, 10:54:34 AM »

It is not just a woman yelling in a loud voice. Maybe your situation is different.

There is a woman screaming at me. In my face. Calling me names. Saying things to get me angry. Goading me. Pushing my buttons. Blocking my way out. Quite often throwing things. There are kids in the house. And it does not stop! And if she blocks my way out, what can I do? It has happened on many occasions. Then I have to sit there and take the abuse for as long as she can dish it out. I can't push my way out. I am plenty big enough, but a man pushing a woman is off limits. I have taken her punches, her pushes, her throwing things at me. She has never been able to physically hurt, although she has tried. I refrained from calling police then. I probably should have.

I was in the military. I have had plenty of practice with people yelling in my face. This is a whole different ball game.
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AnnaK
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« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2014, 11:20:20 AM »

It is not just a woman yelling in a loud voice. Maybe your situation is different.

There is a woman screaming at me. In my face. Calling me names. Saying things to get me angry. Goading me. Pushing my buttons. Blocking my way out. Quite often throwing things. There are kids in the house. And it does not stop! And if she blocks my way out, what can I do? It has happened on many occasions. Then I have to sit there and take the abuse for as long as she can dish it out. I can't push my way out. I am plenty big enough, but a man pushing a woman is off limits. I have taken her punches, her pushes, her throwing things at me. She has never been able to physically hurt, although she has tried. I refrained from calling police then. I probably should have.

I was in the military. I have had plenty of practice with people yelling in my face. This is a whole different ball game.

Well, I have all the same situation, but I have a man doing all that. We are same size. 

Including some physical attacks, but those are not yet fully unwrapped - we have not yet lived together for too long (3 months), and initially I told him I lack skills of a battered woman - so if he lays hand on me and scares me - he'll get back one of those kicks from my muay thai classes, I won't really be choosing methods, heel in the belly will probably do.

And although he is a boxer - he does not know how to block muay thai kicks.

But I know his family complained of his pushing (and his dad fell down) - and striking (and his brother got some spine problem that kept him in bed for a month)

My boyfriend is a boxer in the past. And he drinks.

I started boxing and muay thai, just in case (but also because I always wanted), I learned somewhat, so now I doubt he'd physically hurt me, even if he'd wanted - but I keep getting better, now that I have that much motivation.

But we have no kids (yet).

Otherwise I have all the button pushing, name calling, criticising and blaming (believe me). But my mother does all the same to me. She got me trained.

Besides my emotions lag - I can later suffer from emotional stress, but in the very moment I don't know - it's just a man yelling things that I can't even always make sense of (reason is long gone out of the window)

Ah, but I learned to throw things into walls out of curiosity - it's real fun and makes a big boom  And my bf gets scared (imagine!)

Then blames me in daring to throw HIS chair into HIS wall (well... .yes, I did - because I am naughty - should I have some fun out of it, after all?  he takes it too seriously - it's was just a straw chair after all... .but he then threw another straw chair INTO ME ! he took revenge on me, wow! )

Only one thing is harder for you - you are in a difficult situation, because if you try to make your way out, she might blame you in domestic violence. Well, as a military, you probably have some tricks to restrain a person without hurting/harming her? Think about it in practical way. What would you do it it were just a smaller man? Like a teenager or an old man? What would you do with a woman in danger, who is fighting because they are not thinking clearly (like intoxicated)

It's not totally off limits to push anyone if they are blocking your way, I suppose - all you need to learn is to calibrate your effort (so they don't fall and break their head).

Besides there is a joker way out - buy real good earphones and put them on, point blank, with good loud music. The fight will probably follow - but being a bigger man, you'll probably manage to hold your distance (or try some running).

Yes, I have my earphones :-)
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« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2014, 12:57:34 PM »

The sole burden of this illness cannot rely on the non, basically training the BPD like a dog to respond to reinforcement.

I had that same thought the other night after reading about intermittent reinforcement. Nons are in essence making things worse because we are not 100 percent consistent because we are human. So many of the things recommended do sound exactly like training dog. I have a real problem with that as I have read books about how constant rewards can completely eliminate internal motivations and the only reason to do things is to chase the carrots. I really question my ability to stay with somebody that is doing nothing more than chasing carrots. Some of the things recommended here go against a whole lot of my core beliefs.

VOC - I totally agree. I am having issues with this, too. Core belief issues. The BPD has to take some responsibility, really should take all the responsibility. They have their moments and time when things are ok. They know what they do is wrong, and many admit it. Yet, they do nothing on their own to manage for the bad times, to prevent them. And when they come, it all turns around, a complete 180. It is all your fault today. You are responsible today. Why didn't you do something to prevent this? Why cant you make me feel better? They are not dogs or animals to be trained like animals. We do not go this far to bring up kids. Kids learn right/wrong and how to behave by more than just reinforcement techniques.

What are we some kind of saints sent down by the Lord himself to help these people? We are not perfect, but sure are expected to be.
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« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2014, 05:01:29 PM »

Honestly, I think it's a case by case basis with all of us, and we all have to ask ourselves these questions. Does the good outweigh the bad? For me, it does. He's self aware, and is in constant improvement. When he's not dyregulated, we are best friends. I use these boards to soothe myself, to see I'm not alone, and to learn techniques for ME.

However, I see the severity of some of things others are experiencing, and if he was as bad, I don't think I could do it. Maybe that's the other question. When they are not self-aware, or cannot admit to a problem, I really do not know what a non could do in that case.

I went to marriage counseling by myself (Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)... i know) with my first husband, and when I asked the therapist how do you know when enough is enough... .he answer to me was when the bad outweighs the good, and if the other party isn't willing to work or change to make things better.

I'm not exactly sure if that advice applies fully to BPD, since emotional dysregulation isn't a choice, but they have choices in other areas. They can choose to admit their problem and work on it, or they can choose not to.
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« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2014, 07:21:55 PM »

  We are not perfect, but sure are expected to be.

Not perfect... .just way better than now.

I still have times I fail... .I just have the practice and knowledge to recover quicker.

Sometimes... .I don't even try... .but that is my choice.

So... .we don't need to get better to be perfect... .we need to get better to have more choices.

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swiftkick

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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2014, 08:15:09 PM »

I can relate. I feel like he has to find a way to contradict me even if it is something really small. I referred to a pair of suspenders as suspenders and he had to point out that there was actually another term for them. A term that I had never heard and the claims to have used a lot. That was a new one on me. It seems like he is never content to let me or the kids say or do anything without finding a way to correct us, argue, or offer some sort of alternative.

Oh, and I have to be honest there are times when I welcome the arguing because it sure beats the heck out of being completely ignored. It seems that there are only two extremes. One is having him ignore me and bury himself in his games and the other extreme is him being all up in my area talking and contradicting and acting like a little kid. But, at least that is something. There are times when it feels like we would have absolutely NOTHING to talk about if we weren't arguing.

Ugh, yes!  The continual corrections and criticisms disguised as "teaching," and heaven forbid if you reject their "help," because that makes you incapable of growth or accused of immaturity! 
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2014, 08:16:34 PM »

Ugh, yes!  The continual corrections and criticisms disguised as "teaching," and heaven forbid if you reject their "help," because that makes you incapable of growth or accused of immaturity! 

What is the best way to respond to the "teaching"?

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