Enmeshment. Can we detach and stay married?

[Moselle]

I am enmeshed, even after 7 months of separation.

Is it possible to detach from the enmeshment and maintain the relationship?

If so, How?

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PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

Depends if you are still wishing for something you thought you had, or could have had which is not inline with what is possible.

The stronger the sense of you develops then the less enmeshed you become and the easier to have a less destructive relationship.

Defining "their stuff" vs "your stuff", as opposed to everything being "our stuff"

[Moselle]

Depends if you are still wishing for something you thought you had, or could have had which is not inline with what is possible.

The stronger the sense of you develops then the less enmeshed you become and the easier to have a less destructive relationship.

Defining "their stuff" vs "your stuff", as opposed to everything being "our stuff"

I've accepted that she has a serious mental illness, but I am quite prescriptive about what I'm willing tolerate in terms of behaviour towards me and the children. I am very concerned about the damage to them and their propensity to become BPD or co-dependent, so I have developed a Family Standard of acceptable/ desirable behaviour, which I have communicated as something "I am doing with the children", but which I also expect from her. How do we decide what is possible?

I am recovering the sense of me, but it goes in swings and roundabouts, and is going generally slower than I hoped . I tend to be quite impatient with it.

I like that. "My stuff" versus "Her stuff". Her unspoken rule is that it is all our stuff. Well the NPD in her says it all her stuff LOL. Demonstrated by the time she put my clothes and books in a storage container, and said I'm divorcing you, and you can come and pick up your stuff, its in the container. Perhaps she didn't understand that everything was our stuff, and it is usually split 50/50. She also seems quite clear that I am responsible for 90% of the marital problems.  

[Moselle]

I just read the 'safety first' part of the literature, and learned the following:

"Recovery happens in small easy steps, taken one after the other. Each step needs to be experienced, reviewed and evaluated to derive maximum benefit from your hard work. Many survivors feel impatient with the pace of their recovery, especially if they have spent years feeling stuck. Try to reassure yourself that your abuse occurred over a long period of time - important formative years, so full recovery also takes time. It's very important that YOU set the structure and pace of your recovery"

OK that answers a few questions for me, when I'm ready the answers will present themselves. I've also noticed that material on this site seems to make its appearance when I'm ready for it. Before then it goes over my head.

[ziniztar]

To me detachment means fear. Even when we cleaned all our stuff out of each other apartments I still wanted to speak to him every day. Get a text, send one. In times of separation we had several phone calls that lasted for two hours. That's not detachment.

My T explained the difference between being/doing everything together, and being emotionally enmeshed while being physically apart. I see my family (in good years) only three times a year, but when I feel bad I call them - not my friends. Why is that? And when they feel bad, I expect them to reach out to me. If they don't, I feel unimportant, like they forgot about me.

This period of 'building up' is not hard because I am afraid of the times we're together (although intimacy hurts a lot and I tend to avoid it). It's hard because of the strange feeling I have that I am single, but I'm not. I feel permanently unstable and anxious because I have no idea what his week looks like and when we will be able to see each other again. Today during a phone call he mentioned to me he'll be discussing something on Saturday with his new business partner and my FIRST thought was 'that means we won't be able to see each other this Saturday'. We have nothing planned except for a dinner tomorrow evening and I HATE it. I hate not being connected in such a way that I know everything about him. I hate hearing about things a day after it happened. I hate not being the first he goes to (see the parallel line with my family here?).

My point being: separation does not mean de-enmeshment. Detachment doesn't mean doing things for yourself because you have to, because she's angry and you'll have to sit this one out. It means doing things for yourself because you want to. It means doing them while risking you're not going to be there when they're happy and in a good mood. It means doing them while risking you're not going to be there for them when they're sad. It means being selfish in a healthy way, being a separated, unique person by yourself.

This weekend something interesting happened, I celebrated my birthday during the day (for family) and invited friends to a party during the night. My (depressed) brother had apparently bought a ticket to the party, without letting me know. I was astonished and then immediately got mad when I found out. Why did he not communicate this? I could have prevented him feeling more left out than he already does. He still lives in the country and was about to go to a party where his little sister and everyone else around would be raving until early in the morning. I couldn't care less about him finding out about me doing drugs, I feel confident enough to know I can lead my own life and make my own decisions. But I was mad because he took away the opportunity for me to prevent him getting sad and depressed, because I know him so well and knew he would feel left out.

I will repeat again: I was mad because he took away the opportunity for me to prevent him getting sad and depressed, because I know him so well and knew he would feel left out. What the hell is that? Of course I was right, he tried to find me a few times and then texted that he felt bad and wasn't up for it and returned home again. He drove 200 miles that night and paid 50 euro's for tickets to a party I knew he wouldn't stay longer than 30 minutes. AND I WAS RIGHT!

Did it matter anything that I was right? It became very obvious I feel overly responsible for someone feeling bad, and that I feel it's my duty to even prevent someone from feeling like that. That's why I want to be connected, that's why I am enmeshed. I feel anxious when detached because it means I have no idea how someone  is doing and I cannot take any preemptive measures to make sure someone won't feel bad. And when people don't turn to me when they're feeling bad, I am afraid I don't have anything else to offer and they won't love me. And will leave.

So. Long story short. You have a reason to be enmeshed. What is it?

[Moselle]

So. Long story short. You have a reason to be enmeshed. What is it?

Rescuer. I get my kicks and validation from rescuing others!

[maxsterling]

The problem as I see it is that we can detach, take care of our own needs, find ourselves, separate our stuff from their stuff, but that is no guarantee of fixing the relationship  If you think that you detaching will fix the other person, that means you are not detached enough. 

The reality here is that we must detach to save ourselves, not as a means of saving our relationships.  You can detach, she may react negatively, and whether or not you stay married is really not up to you.  All you can deal with is your half of the relationship.  If she can't deal with her half, the relationship is probably doomed at some point - and that is well beyond your control. 

From my viewpoint, the healthiest relationships are those where each person is detached from one another, where each person knows he/she is responsible for his/her own needs.  the relationships where one partner feels they "need" the other just seem doomed to failure, as they are always set up for disappointment.

[Moselle]

The reality here is that we must detach to save ourselves, not as a means of saving our relationships.  You can detach, she may react negatively, and whether or not you stay married is really not up to you.  All you can deal with is your half of the relationship.  If she can't deal with her half, the relationship is probably doomed at some point - and that is well beyond your control.  

Agree 100% I think I'm there... .whilst I'm 1500km away from her . I can limit the communication to what happens electronically.

Put me back with her and in 1 week, I've lost myself again. I somehow give her permission to soothe me. It's easy to do, it's the default and she jumps in. And I feel great! It's like the honeymoon stage again.

It's not all bad. I have boundaries now, and I'm wise to the games, and call her on them. But the non-verbal connection. She's BPD/NPD, so I think she switches - she can charm my pants off in one minute as the NPD, and then guilt me in the next with the BPD.

Somewhere, somehow, she catches me off guard and I'm stuck into the cycle. It's bizarre!

[MissyM]

I agree with Max, detachment is the foundation for a healthy relationship.  Alanon really helped me "get" detachment with love.  It is an ability to separate my dBPDh's behavior from me.  When he has erratic behavior, it isn't about me and I don't have to go down the rabbit hole with him.  I can be loving and supportive, yet still keep my boundaries.  No longer being enmeshed means I don't allow myself to be battered around by his emotional state.  It is a lot less exhausting.  My dBPDh also has narcissistic traits, is highly educated and can be very manipulative.  I can recognize when he gets into those behaviors and not go there with him.  I don't have to beat him up about it or even point out what he is doing, just not play into it myself.  Really, I highly recommend Alanon or some other support group dealing with codependency.  I have been told by therapists that enmeshment is a symptom of codependency.

[vortex of confusion]

I was going through my notebooks last night and found one where I had written a list of MY goals and ambitions. These were things that I could do on my own with or without him. I had forgotten about that list but it reminded me what I am working towards. I get impatient at times because things are happening so slowly. I have only accomplished one or two goals on my list but reviewing it helped me to realize that the whole point of my list is to establish my own separate identity and get back to being the person that I knew and loved.

The key for me is to find a way to accomplish my goals with or without my husband. I haven't even shared a lot of those goals with him and am simply finding small ways to accomplish them on my own. One of the ones that I have accomplished is getting a second part time job. That was tricky because I knew that I had to find a job where the hours wouldn't interfere with anything. It took a while but I succeeded! The other goal was to try to do more stuff on my own without him. Again, it has been a struggle, but I am getting there. Another one was to rearrange the house and do some organizing to make things more accessible. It is taking a while but I am slowly getting it done. All of those little bitty things are adding up and making me feel more like an individual rather than just an extension of him. I hope that if I keep at it, I will slowly untangle the enmeshment.

Oh, have you seen the lesson that talks about twisted thinking? That helped me to answer some of my own questions about how I managed to get so enmeshed. A lot of the enmeshment comes from my own twisted thinking. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

There is also a link about untwisting your thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56200.0

I have been visiting and revisiting those two articles the last couple of days.

[ziniztar]

If you think that you detaching will fix the other person, that means you are not detached enough. 

The reality here is that we must detach to save ourselves, not as a means of saving our relationships. 

That's what I think it boils down to and what I meant with you shouldn't do stuff for yourself because you feel the other person will feel better or your r/s will be better. You should do them because they feel good to you, but I really recognize that false sense of safety when my bf is cheering me up or understanding me. Or the strange energy I get when I managed to turn his mood around, like a sense of accomplishment.

It's difficult to get there. The other day I read something along the lines of... .



A bird is not anxious the twig he's sitting on will breach. He trusts on his own ability to fly.

I liked that.

[waverider]

Yeeter once said that until you reach a stage where you are willing to give it all away as a considered realistic option (not just out of frustration), you will not be in a place were you can detach in a healthy constructive way. Once you reach this step then you know that you are doing what you do out of choice, not obligation, nor desperation not to "fail".

Enmeshment is often a subconscious desperate attempt not to fail

It is easier to do anything when you can own it as your choice

[formflier]

It is easier to do anything when you can own it as your choice

And you feel better... .because if you are making a choice... then you have the power.

Feeling helpless sucks... plain and simple... .

Having power leaves you thinking about what you will do... .not what they will do.

[Moselle]

Enmeshment is often a subconscious desperate attempt not to fail

It is easier to do anything when you can own it as your choice

It's a choice on the co-dependent side. I've chosen to give the power over to a person with a serious mental disorder. That doesn't sound like a very good choice, now that I say it.

I take that power back by becoming emotionally independent. Loving myself, accepting myself. By accepting that the relationship may be over, if it indeed goes that way. Its accepting responsibility for my life as an individual.

[hope2727]

Ok so I struggle with this topic a bit. I have been independent and single for a long, long time. I loved being married the first time around and loved being engaged and living with my fiancé this time around. I do however ALWAYS pursue my own things.

I am a runner, he is not. No problem I run and he doesn't. I encouraged him to return to or continue his activities like martial arts (he quit when his friend quit). I went to the gym, invited him to join, he declined, I went anyway he acted resentful. Oh well his problem. I attend university full time and work part time. He resents me working over holidays while he has time off from his full time job. I sympathize that he would like me to be available when he wants me but unless he is planning to pay my bills and tuition I will be working over my holidays. I have male friends as I have masculine hobbies. He is insanely jealous even when he is present while they are around. I sympathize with his jealousy but keep my friendships. I encourage all his friendships provided they are healthy and respectful. I have goals. I won't give them up. I will adapt my plan to include him wherever possible (i.e. what universities I apply to so that he can find work in those cities) but I won't quit school and just work here because he doesn't want to move all of a sudden. I have my own money. I own my own home. I have my own projects. He should to although I found he was withdrawing from al of them over time.

On the other hand I looked forward to seeing him at the end of the day and hearing about his day. I relished our time together. I loved going for nightly walks after dinner. I miss his texts and phone calls. I loved his texts through the day and hearing how things were with him and telling him about what I was learning in school. I loved cooking meals together. I loved going for long drives together. I loved trying new restaurants. I loved going swimming. I loved his smile at the end of every day. I loved just living together. There was a comfortable ease to all of it until the "switch" flipped and he walked out. Almost 2 years of ease and comfort and love and then ... .black.

So I have trouble knowing when its enmeshment and when its just a loving partnership. Yes I hate seeing him suffer. Yes I wish I could help. Yes I have helped him financially for a few months while we lived together while he was struggling. But then he found good employment again and I assumed all was well. Yes I give advice if I have already done something he is about to do. But that seems normal to me as others give me advice and I am always seeking it out. Case in point my friend the mechanic just came over to check out my new old motorcycle. Very old (1980) but new to me (1 week). Yes I considered my ex fiancee in making decisions for myself but no I wouldn't give up  my education or my work or my equity for him.

I am me, he is him and we are us. Where are the lines? How do they interact? I struggle with this in my mind all the time now. I never did before but as I analyze it more I seem more confused.

[Moselle]

Ok so I struggle with this topic a bit. I have been independent and single for a long, long time. I loved being married the first time around and loved being engaged and living with my fiancé this time around. I do however ALWAYS pursue my own things.

I am me, he is him and we are us. Where are the lines? How do they interact? I struggle with this in my mind all the time now. I never did before but as I analyze it more I seem more confused.

It sounds to me like you were not enmeshed. It sounds to me like he was trying to enmesh you for 2 years, but you would not. Now that he has gone black, are you enmeshed?

[waverider]

Ok so I struggle with this topic a bit. I have been independent and single for a long, long time. I loved being married the first time around and loved being engaged and living with my fiancé this time around. I do however ALWAYS pursue my own things.

I am a runner, he is not. No problem I run and he doesn't. I encouraged him to return to or continue his activities like martial arts (he quit when his friend quit). I went to the gym, invited him to join, he declined, I went anyway he acted resentful. Oh well his problem. I attend university full time and work part time. He resents me working over holidays while he has time off from his full time job. I sympathize that he would like me to be available when he wants me but unless he is planning to pay my bills and tuition I will be working over my holidays. I have male friends as I have masculine hobbies. He is insanely jealous even when he is present while they are around. I sympathize with his jealousy but keep my friendships. I encourage all his friendships provided they are healthy and respectful. I have goals. I won't give them up. I will adapt my plan to include him wherever possible (i.e. what universities I apply to so that he can find work in those cities) but I won't quit school and just work here because he doesn't want to move all of a sudden. I have my own money. I own my own home. I have my own projects. He should to although I found he was withdrawing from al of them over time.

On the other hand I looked forward to seeing him at the end of the day and hearing about his day. I relished our time together. I loved going for nightly walks after dinner. I miss his texts and phone calls. I loved his texts through the day and hearing how things were with him and telling him about what I was learning in school. I loved cooking meals together. I loved going for long drives together. I loved trying new restaurants. I loved going swimming. I loved his smile at the end of every day. I loved just living together. There was a comfortable ease to all of it until the "switch" flipped and he walked out. Almost 2 years of ease and comfort and love and then ... .black.

So I have trouble knowing when its enmeshment and when its just a loving partnership. Yes I hate seeing him suffer. Yes I wish I could help. Yes I have helped him financially for a few months while we lived together while he was struggling. But then he found good employment again and I assumed all was well. Yes I give advice if I have already done something he is about to do. But that seems normal to me as others give me advice and I am always seeking it out. Case in point my friend the mechanic just came over to check out my new old motorcycle. Very old (1980) but new to me (1 week). Yes I considered my ex fiancee in making decisions for myself but no I wouldn't give up  my education or my work or my equity for him.

I am me, he is him and we are us. Where are the lines? How do they interact? I struggle with this in my mind all the time now. I never did before but as I analyze it more I seem more confused.

You are not enmeshed, you just grieve what was, and thought would continue to be, but is no longer.

[ziniztar]

Yeeter once said that until you reach a stage where you are willing to give it all away as a considered realistic option (not just out of frustration), you will not be in a place were you can detach in a healthy constructive way. Once you reach this step then you know that you are doing what you do out of choice, not obligation, nor desperation not to "fail".

Enmeshment is often a subconscious desperate attempt not to fail

It is easier to do anything when you can own it as your choice

I’ll share what I’ve said to some of my friends in the last days.

The second I chose to go to my T instead of booking a vacation with dBPDbf, I knew I had changed my focus from us to me. The moment I chose to pick up my stuff I knew I was doing the right thing for me. If I’d lose the r/s because of it that would be okay, because I knew it was the best choice for me.

I had a moment like that before when I mailed a letter complaining about the way I had to communicate with my then NPD boyfriend when I was studying abroad. He was forcing me to write letters because that’s what he wanted, while all I needed was some (emotional) support in lonely, cold, wintery Canadian times. I took a second to think about my decision to mail that letter, even took a photo of the post office. In the end that led to us breaking up (he couldn’t handle the criticism of course), but I’ve never felt bad about doing it, because I knew I couldn’t continue the way I did.

[formflier]

  By accepting that the relationship may be over, if it indeed goes that way. Its accepting responsibility for my life as an individual.

Moselle,

Can I suggest another statement for you to think on... .and take on as the way that you will approach life and your r/s.

"In the past I have made and unwise choice to hand over power to a person that exhibits traits of a serious mental disorder.  I now know this is unhealthy.  I've made a choice to pour all of my energy in life into educating myself about how to act in this r/s in the healthiest manner possible.  I will do my best.  If my partner chooses to end the r/s... .I will know that I've left nothing on the table and have no regrets about my actions."

What does your life look like if you try to live that out? 

[hope2727]

Thank you for all the thoughts and feedback.

Yes I feel more enmeshed than when I was with him. Weird. I am working hard to fall in love with me again and think of him a little less each day.

Yes I am grieving. I love him. I miss him. I cry when I want to turn and tell him something cool and he is not there. It is a HUGE loss. I am on my own again and this time I had a glimpse of what life was like when shared again.

Somehow I have to work on my own little old self again and improve even more before I am ready to have a truly healthy partner I guess. BOUNDRIES! Perhaps I shall draw it on my arm (since I don't do tattoos).

Thank you all so much for sharing your stories and thoughts.

[Moselle]

  By accepting that the relationship may be over, if it indeed goes that way. Its accepting responsibility for my life as an individual.

Moselle,

Can I suggest another statement for you to think on... .and take on as the way that you will approach life and your r/s.

"In the past I have made and unwise choice to hand over power to a person that exhibits traits of a serious mental disorder.  I now know this is unhealthy.  I've made a choice to pour all of my energy in life into educating myself about how to act in this r/s in the healthiest manner possible.  I will do my best.  If my partner chooses to end the r/s... .I will know that I've left nothing on the table and have no regrets about my actions."

What does your life look like if you try to live that out? 

I like that! It makes sense to me and I am comfortable that I have not left anything on the table already. I was concerned when I read the bit about pouring all of my energy into this thing. I'm ready to pour most of my energy into my life and my children's lives, after pouring huge amounts into this relationship.

How about:

"In the past I have made an unwise choice to hand over power to a person that exhibits traits of a serious mental disorder.  I now know this was unhealthy.  I've made a choice to pour all of my energy and love  into healing and recovering myself. This includes learning to love soothe and accept myself, becoming excited about my life and its possibilities, fathering my children and educating myself about how to act in this r/s in the healthiest manner possible. I recognise I can only change myself and that my spouse will never change. She will always have a serious mentall illness.  I will do my best.  I or my partner may choose to end the r/s... .I will know that I have chosen to be independent and healthy emotionally, that I've left nothing on the table and have no regrets about my actions."

[empathic]

To my wife, the enmeshment IS the relationship. Any steps I've taken by detaching have been taken as me stepping away from the relationship. But it's been necessary for me, to keep my sanity. Like you @Moselle I'm pretty worn out from putting so much energy into this. Energy that I'd like to redirect to my kids and staying healthy myself.

My wife is currently out of town and then it's very obvious how much easier things get. I'll gladly make the extra effort to run everything in the household by myself, for the peace and time for reflection I get.

[Moselle]

To my wife, the enmeshment IS the relationship. Any steps I've taken by detaching have been taken as me stepping away from the relationship. But it's been necessary for me, to keep my sanity. Like you @Moselle I'm pretty worn out from putting so much energy into this. Energy that I'd like to redirect to my kids and staying healthy myself.

My wife is currently out of town and then it's very obvious how much easier things get. I'll gladly make the extra effort to run everything in the household by myself, for the peace and time for reflection I get.

Empathic, I have spent alot of time, effort and money in trying to fix this thing. I realise now that is probably came from a selfish desire 'not to fail at this' and the enmeshment as mentioned by others in this post is a choice from my side not hers. She can try it, but I still have a choice to allow myself to be enmeshed. This is massive in itself, because if I have chosen it in the past, I can unchoose it in the present.

My biggest return in terms of her changing happened when, I stopped paying for the therapy, stopped bothering whether she had BPD, stopped listening to her nonsense.

I do live 1500 km away, and that helps LOL, but I am trying to re-integrate on my terms.

PS I also love it when she's away and I have kids to myself. We get along great. It's not a good idea to tell her that. I learned that the hard way :-)

[Moselle]

OK it's growing a bit now :

"In the past I have made an unwise choice to hand power over to a person that exhibits traits of a serious mental disorder. I now know that this was an unhealthy choice. I will pour all of my energy and love into healing and recovering myself, and actively holding myself accountable and responsible for my own life. This includes learning to love, soothe and accept myself, becoming excited about my life and its possibilities, working hard at opportunities that I find stimulating, fathering my children and educating myself about how to act in this r/s, in the healthiest manner possible. I commit to working though a DBT process with her and the children. I recognise I can only change myself and that my spouse will never change. She will always have a serious mental illness. I will do my best. I or my partner may choose to end the r/s... .I know that I have chosen to be independent and healthy emotionally, that I've left nothing on the table and have no regrets about my actions."

My life becomes very exciting if I try and live that out. It makes me excited to wake up in the morning and do my best at it. I feel challenged and invigorated by it.

From my viewpoint, the healthiest relationships are those where each person is detached from one another, where each person knows he/she is responsible for his/her own needs.  the relationships where one partner feels they "need" the other just seem doomed to failure, as they are always set up for disappointment.

Emotional independence actually enables us to have companionship, friendship, support, and understanding, because they become a matter of free choice, not personal or relationship bondage

Yeeter once said that until you reach a stage where you are willing to give it all away as a considered realistic option (not just out of frustration), you will not be in a place were you can detach in a healthy constructive way. Once you reach this step then you know that you are doing what you do out of choice, not obligation, nor desperation not to "fail".

This is a powerful antidote to co-dependency. We act from a point of healthy choice, not unhealthy dependence

Thanks everyone for your input!  

[waverider]

I recognise I can only change myself and that my spouse will never change

Wouldn't say this, rather that you cannot make her change, that is not within your control.

[formflier]

I recognise I can only change myself and that my spouse will never change

Wouldn't say this, rather that you cannot make her change, that is not within your control.

I agree with Waverider.

In my r/s... .my spouse has made huge changes.  So have I.  Probably not a healthy debate to decide who has changed more... .who needed to change more... .etc etc.

I was frustrated by lack of change for a long time... .even after I was sure I was "doing it right"... .with lessons and all that.

But... .when change started... and momentum started going in the right direction... .I tried to reinforce that... .and by and large... momentum is still going in right direction.

[Moselle]

I agree with Waverider.

In my r/s... .my spouse has made huge changes.  So have I.  Probably not a healthy debate to decide who has changed more... .who needed to change more... .etc etc.

I was frustrated by lack of change for a long time... .even after I was sure I was "doing it right"... .with lessons and all that.

But... .when change started... and momentum started going in the right direction... .I tried to reinforce that... .and by and large... momentum is still going in right direction.

Thanks both for the feedback. She is changing. She is voracious about the "conflict couples" book.

We spent an hour on skype over lunch today talking about how we cannot act alone. How our mood affects others especially our spouse. And before we say something, ask ourselves if this will make things better or worse.

She asked me today if we can spend some time at 8pm after the kids are asleep to look at mindfulness of self and partner.

Early days, but WOW!

[formflier]

 

This is good... .this momentum in the right direction.

Make sure you tell her you like this... .appreciate it and all that.

Make sure there is no hint of ... .hey this is great... ."after being so bad"... .

Keep the momentum going.

[waverider]

It is interesting to see with the improvement in attitude once you stop being less part of the problem, that you can then understand how much influence the exposure to a dysfunctional upbringing would have played a part in the way they developed.

Sometimes I wonder if their ability to improve is directly related to whether their disorder was more experienced based rather than fully genetic.

[Moselle]

It is interesting to see with the improvement in attitude once you stop being less part of the problem, that you can then understand how much influence the exposure to a dysfunctional upbringing would have played a part in the way they developed.

Sometimes I wonder if their ability to improve is directly related to whether their disorder was more experienced based rather than fully genetic.

Very good question, nurture versus nature? I think being nurtured through generations results in natural selection this way too. So it becomes a self supporting loop.

My wife knew her upbringing was problematic, and married me quite differently to her 5 sisters. They married much like the father, soft, accomodating, will do anything they're told, and if I'm honest, they have been relatively conflict free.

There is other fallout however:

S2 is suicidal,

S3 cuts herself (I assume BPD),

S4, antisocial PD,

S5 somehow spared any of the nasties, but married a real Yes man

S6 NPD

W married someone me, who could help her change the family mould, strong, NP.

We didn't realise until 4 years ago that there was mental illness that needed to he healed, and that the illness was BPD/NPD.

But the desire to improve has always been there for her. We tried books courses, therapy everything to no avail. This is BPD, and no normal marital advice can ever work. She now has information about what it is. I've always admired her for the ability to succeed at anything, but she needs to choose what it is. I think she has chosen to change BPD. Time will tell.