Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 29, 2024, 10:17:44 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Things we can't ignore
What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship
Why We Struggle in Our Relationships
Is Your Relationship Breaking Down?
Codependency and Codependent Relationships
93
Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Seriosuly considering ending relationship  (Read 654 times)
maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« on: September 24, 2014, 07:52:31 AM »

Maybe inappropriate topic for this message board.  But while I feel committed to trying to making things work, I feel I need to be honest with myself about how exhausted I feel and that ending things is an option I need to consider again.  

The main underlying issue is the double standard.  I feel like I am trying to meet an impossible list of criteria from her, yet am asked to accept her at face value.  When I finally came to terms of acceptance of her disorder, I felt free, and excited to move forward in the relationship.  That meant accepting she may always be depressed, accepting she dysregulates, accepting her neediness.  I'm still okay with that.

But this afternoon we sat in counseling together, and once again were all her doubts - she's not sure whether to send out wedding invitations because she has doubts.  Her doubts?  I don't dress well enough, she doesn't think I am ambitious enough in my career, my family isn't refined enough, I am a messy eater (there are all projections of the way she feels about herself and her own family, but she doesn't see that even though the counselor tried to steer her that way).  And after the session, she got frustrated with me on the drive home again, saying she needs to know what to do about the wedding.  She said she's worried that I will be "antisocial" at our wedding.      Frankly, I need a break from talking about it.  She needs an answer about her own doubts.

I started to tell her that I will do what I can to work on myself... .but 5 minutes later I wished I hadn't said that.  I had to accept the way she is right now, knowing she may not change, in order to want to move forward.  My feeling is that she needs to do the same.  I think soon I have to point that out to her - that I had to learn to accept her for how she is now with no guarantee of change.  And i need to tell her that me changing can't solve her doubts, and that if she can't work them out on her own then we shouldn't get married.  
Logged

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES
This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

Mono No Aware
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 175


« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 08:34:57 AM »

IMO, an unavoidable and perhaps important part of Staying & Improving is to allow yourself to have these thoughts.

I get them as part of a regular cycle, at a certain point on the dysregulation (the 2nd or 3rd downslope after some typical BPD episodes) when I have some moments of peace I seriously consider it too.

I could BS about the supposedly rational process of weighing pros & cons, such as trying to estimate which damage to the highly-sensitive 9 year old would be worse in the long-term: divorce or more BPD mommy, but the research-proven fact remains that human beings - whether BPD or healthy - make decisions 100% based on emotion and gut instinct and all our logic is actually biased rationalization to make ourselves look/feel smart.

And my emotional decision stands: I love her.
Logged
maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2014, 08:35:34 AM »

Interestingly, in therapy, T tried to get her to elaborate on her doubts, and whether the doubts were anything new, or at one time if the things she saw as flaws with me she once found endearing.  And sure enough, BPDfiance said that those things didn't bother her so much and she actually found cute or attractive until we got engaged.  Classic push/pull - get too close then feel enmeshed and push away?  I think the T was asking those questions for a reason.  

And after the session, we did have a conversation in the car, where BPDfiance revealed to me that she always feels like she is "floating" and not in her body, and she doesn't feel like she knows who she is, and lacks identity... .

I read the threads and stories on here, and feel like I can relate to almost all of them. Nearly all of the behaviors everyone else has seen in their BPD loved ones I have seen.  And the ones I haven't directly seen, I know they were in her past.  While I don't think it's especially useful to rank "severity" of BPD, I have come to grips with that her mental health issues related to BPD are as about as serious as they come.  And after last night's round of complaining and doubts, laying in bed she was gripping on to me saying she loves me and that she misses me and doesn't want me to go on my work trip today.  And I'm just exhausted.

It's not that I don't want to work on things, or quit trying, it just feel like it's hard to muster up the energy now knowing its likely a wasted effort if she can't ever come to a place of acceptance about me and satisfy her own doubts.  
Logged

maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2014, 08:39:50 AM »

And my emotional decision stands: I love her.

Same goes for me.  My love for her hasn't changed.  Maybe gotten stronger.  But I feel I must accept that is separate from my happiness and separate from a healthy relationship.  "Release with love."

No matter how much I love her, if she has doubts and can't accept me, there is nothing I can do bout that. 
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2014, 09:23:42 AM »

And my emotional decision stands: I love her.

Same goes for me.  My love for her hasn't changed.  Maybe gotten stronger.  But I feel I must accept that is separate from my happiness and separate from a healthy relationship.  "Release with love."

No matter how much I love her, if she has doubts and can't accept me, there is nothing I can do bout that. 

Max,

I think this is a great discussion for this board.  I think you are doing a great job thinking through this... .and also using your emotions to work through this.

I've not reread them... .but I think back to you making the decision to get engaged.  I liked that... .it was a "double down" moment.  A strong choice... .your choice.  I felt like you grabbed power. 

It would seem to me that you need to have a long conversation with yourself about how you would feel and think about yourself if the r/s ever came to an end.

How would you feel if she ended it... .or if you ended it?

For me... I'm generally not a regrets guy. I get to that point by figuring out what is the best I can do for a situation... .do that and move on.  Many things don't require your best... .but how you approach the r/s with your fiancee or wife... .I think that is something that you want to have no doubts about if you "did your best"... .or "went all in"...

You did that in the past when you decided to get engaged... .and I would encourage you to do that now. 

Now... .what that exactly looks like... .I think there needs to be a debate about that on here... .and in your mind.

And there also needs to be a realization that you can decide to proceed... and she can back out... .and there is nothing you can do about it.  My goal for you is if that happens... .you'll be sad... .but that you won't be feeling regret over your actions... .that you will only be feeling regret over her decisions.

That's a big difference for me... .if it's a big difference for you... .only you can decide that.

So... .my advice is that you make her own her doubts... .and own the decision about the marriage.  That will provide a pathway for growth for her... .she may or may not decide to walk that path.  I hope she does... .

Thoughts?



Logged

KateCat
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 2907


« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2014, 10:50:32 AM »

My thought is that this is a beautiful post, formflier, and with a profound summation:

So... .my advice is that you make her own her doubts... .and own the decision about the marriage.  That will provide a pathway for growth for her... .she may or may not decide to walk that path.  I hope she does... .

Logged
sweetheart
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, together 11 years. Not living together since June 2017, but still in a relationship.
Posts: 1235



« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2014, 12:49:22 PM »

Hello maxsterling,

I have followed your posts with interest as your partners' early history mirrored my dBPDh until he took a criminal path and his chaos was halted by our criminal justice system here in the UK. He went on to spend 4 years in a secure mental health facility that ran on along the lines of a therapeutic community. Our paths crossed soon after he was discharged, he was upfront and honest about his past and diagnosis and has stayed actively involved with his P, mental health team and social worker in all the time we have been together. The reason for the potted history is that he did not start to unravel and dysregulate until three years into our marriage, and 18months after our son was born. Had he started to dysregulate sooner, I would not have married him and I would not have had a child with him. Had I known what I now know about this disorder then I would have left him.

I am still very much In love with him, and as things stand today in this moment I am staying, but yesterday for the first time I spent time on the leaving board.

In your post you talk about accepting your fiancée as she is with no expectation of her changing. For me this is what it means to really stand alongside a pwBPD. This and using the skills taught here to underpin RA, or at least real acceptance of the limitations of this disorder.

It seems to me that you have returned to a familiar but fundamental  dilemma; I am sure you remember making the basis of whether you married your then gf about whether her behaviour improved. This feels like the same question but it is the relationship as a whole that is dependent on her changing her behaviour again. How long will you give your fiancée before she has to meet this condition? What if she manages to change for a while but then dysregulates and these issue return ? I am not being provocative in my outlining these questions, but from what I have read on these forums and elsewhere this condition negates a positive, conclusive answer/outcome for you or any of us.

For me you are either able to accept how your fiancée is with all that being with someone who has BPD means, or you're not. I'm not suggesting that this is simple or easy, but I don't believe that asking your fiancée to do things differently will make any difference given the limitations of this disorder for her.


Logged

takingandsending
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121



« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 02:01:34 PM »

Hi max.

First, thanks for sharing your dilemma. It is the dilemma for many of us.

I agree with what sweetheart has posted. I fear that RA for me would be always tinged with radical hope that my uBPDw would want to radically change her experience enough that she seeks healing within herself. Otherwise, as oceanheart's posts on this site state, the BPD in our lives will always being seeking externally to meet their needs, which is an unfair and impossible role to exist within, even when you love someone. Yes, you can change your behaviors, be healthy for yourself and be humane to your SO, but that's it.

I am not certain the I understand formflier's suggestion of making her own her doubts. Seems to me, you can choose not to enable her, allow her to experience her feelings without rescuing, but that does not equate to making her own her feelings. Only she can do that.
Logged

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 02:27:41 PM »

I am not certain the I understand formflier's suggestion of making her own her doubts. Seems to me, you can choose not to enable her, allow her to experience her feelings without rescuing, but that does not equate to making her own her feelings. Only she can do that.

They are her doubts... .and it is up to her to deal with the... .not up to Max to make the go away.  This assumes... .of course... that there is no rational (to a non) basis for the doubts.

Also... .when I say she has to own the marriage decision... .if she wants to grumble about not getting married... .that is up to her to figure out.  Not up to her to make someone else responsible for figuring this out.

Max has made it clear to her what he wants to do... .she may have to get a better handle on her condition to be able to move forward with a marriage... .or she may decide to not handle this... .and part ways with Max... .but it needs to be her "fault"... .or her decision... .rather than trying to push Max into doing something for her.

Hope that gives a better vibe about what I was thinking.

Many pwBPD will see to try to cause a r/s to end... .but don't want to be responsible for the end... .that is what I'm hoping to clarify for Max.

Logged

Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 03:31:39 PM »

It is true--you cannot make her own her doubts.

However, you can refuse to take them from her when she throws them around.

I'm reminded of something I said (multiple times, and stuck with it). My circumstances were different, in that my wife had acknowledged the verbal and other abuse of me, so I had that to go on... .Anyhow, here is roughly what I said.

"Abuse is fundamentally about control. I acknowledge that I have my own issues to work on, however If I report to you on this, I am ceding control to you, and that is exactly what we are trying to change. It is not that I have no issues to work on, or no flaws. I'm just not going to be talking with you about it until the abuse is done."

And any time she tried to turn it around to my flaws (whether I agreed with her assessment or not!), I simply said that I wasn't going to discuss that with her or report on that with her.

In your case, stating that she has to figure out whether she wants to marry you is up to her, and you won't promise to change stuff like "I don't dress well enough, she doesn't think I am ambitious enough in my career, my family isn't refined enough, I am a messy eater" for her.

'Cuz that game is toxic: "I don't know if I can marry you because of X" "I'll change X" (control fight plays out over X breaks out, including kitchen sinking you about not getting married!)

You might point out that most of those are vague enough that you and she probably wouldn't agree if you had met the criteria or not after you tried to change.

The real reassurance you should offer at this time is that YOU still want to marry her.

(If you don't want to marry her, consider breaking up with her rather than stay together w/o getting married... .'tho a suggestion that drastic is probably somewhat overstepping both my bounds and the rules of the staying board)
Logged
meerkat1
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 104



« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2014, 03:48:48 PM »

I don't know Max. Seems to me, she maybe trying to get you to remove her doubts and for you to make a promise to change. Don't forget pwBPD blames all the relationship issues (and her issues) on you.

I can tell you right now that I wished I had known about BPD when I was dating. There were signs. They were not as intense, nor as frequent as they are now. But they were there. I kept chalking up all the issues to situations. However, there were just more situations. And they pile up on the pwBPD over time, too. The things that happened 20 years ago keep coming up. They are never resolved in her mind. NEVER.

Add kids to the equation and just makes it worse yet.

If I had to do it over... .Hard to say. I have three wonderful kids, I would never ever ever wish I did not have them. So I can't say I would change things now. However, had I known then might have been a different story.

You need to really think hard about your own doubts. What you have learned on this site. How you will be able to deal with it.

If you decide to commit then know you will have to put in a lot of effort. You become the caretaker of your SO's emotions.

There is a chance she can get better and you have a good relationship, but it will take a lot of very hard work from you. She may not put any work in at all. A huge emotional and probably physical toll on you, too.

Godspeed friend!

Logged
takingandsending
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121



« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2014, 03:52:25 PM »

Grey Kitty - agreed. Meant that when I said allow her to experience her feelings without rescuing. No guarantee that she will be willing to experience those feeling at which point, agree again, boundary.

I appreciate your approach with your wife. How is it working? I am doing the same, disengaging from conversation until the blame stops. I am okay with basic civility being in how we speak to one another. Probably a better topic on a new thread. Sorry max!
Logged

MaybeSo
Distinguished Member
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: Together five years, ended suddenly June 2011
Posts: 3680


Players only love you when they're playing...


« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2014, 09:27:26 AM »

Excerpt
That meant accepting she may always be depressed, accepting she dysregulates, accepting her neediness.  I'm still okay with that.

Having done this for 8 years... .

the b.s. projection about my flaws that cycle through like clockwork no matter what I've focused my effort on... .

is the least of my concern anymore.  the projection is so obvious and at times cartoonish... .I hardly even flinch anymore.  For example... ."I feel I need something more exciting than you"... .gets a big yawn out of me.  In fact I was once told  that I'm not efferevescent enough for him... .and someone on this board said he should buy some Alka Seltzer then.  Talk is cheap.  When it's coming from a dysregulated place or fearful place... .it's almost worthless.  You can look for the areas where they are spot on, and validate... .because of course, we DO have issues, too.  But when it feels cartoonish or over the top or it's something you can't own or fix cause it's not in your ball park... .meh... .it's just talk.

In all seriousness... .for me, it's the derpression, the dysregulation and childishness that wears on me the most.  Aftere 8 years of that... .the stuff that comes out of their mouths about YOU may feel like child's play.  Living with a depressed and dysregulated person for years... .that will take a huge toll on you... .and it's what helps fuel that content of what comes out of their mouths as they try to pinpoint why they feel so miserable and come to the conclusion that it's something you are doing (which is to be expected, they can't put their finger on where the pain is located, but they can point to you).  So, I guess I'm saying don't be so quick to sign off on the depression/moodiness etc. as do-able.  I truly think it's one the hardest parts of this whole disorder.

You guys should be working with a therapist that has psychobiological/attachment approach.  Her complaining she is floating and not attached to her body... .that's very diagnostic... .If I were the therapist, I'd be diving into that... .and I'd be steering away from the typical talky talk of classic therapy... .classic talk therapy is top down... .she has some bottom up issues, dysregulation is a bodily condition ... .by the time it gets converted into 'talk' therapy... .it's mostly just pure projection and fear and trauma responses, its totally disorganized and changes all the time.  Bottom-up therapy targets her trauma responses and goes right the source.

What meds is she on?

In any event... .I think everyone goes through many many periods of deep consideration about staying v. leaving.  I think that's normal.  
Logged

maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2014, 09:57:00 AM »

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  I was working out of town yesterday, and it was a badly needed break where I could think and have clarity.  All of your advice is very useful 

My thoughts are initially similar to formfliers - If I try and go about solving her "doubts", I'll drive myself crazy trying to reach a moving goal post.  And that is what it is, a moving goal post.  I just don't know what the best approach is here, and that I may decide this is a "no win" situation and "leaving" is an option that needs serious consideration.

As I mentioned, I initially said, "I want to get married, I will work on the problems you have with me."  But really, I can't work on those problems because those are her problems, not mine.  And if she is really considering not getting married because I chew too loudly, there is nothing I can do about that. 

But I don't want to be held in limbo any more than her.  And her saying she has all these doubts puts me in limbo.  I can accept that this is who she is and these doubts are real for her, but I also have to mae choices for my own life.  So maybe I need to approach things more forcefully - tell her that I want to get married, that I recognize I am not perfect, that even with my best efforts to satisfy her, I am who I am and if she can't accept that, then I need her to make a decision so that I quit wasting my time.  The T was getting at that as well, asking her that if she has all this in her head right now of all these things I did/do wrong, and if I corrected things, would that change anything.  She had no answer. 

But right now I am just so exhausted, I need to focus on myself, and on today.  She may not like that, either.  That means finding my own space to think about this.  That means eating well and sleeping well.  That means distancing myself form her business, and avoiding potential bad situations (like long car rides).  We have a vacation planned for the week after next, and I don't want to rock the boat before that. 

Interestingly, she is back to the needy "I love you" phase since the night of the T session, and no word about these "doubts".
Logged

Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2014, 02:50:22 PM »

Yeah, that is another thing to accept--that one day she will be all happy and lovey, and the next she will be doubting she can marry you because you chew too loudly. And she won't acknowledge now absolutely bizarre and crazy-making it is for you when she does this transition seamlessly!

Which is not quite the same as being held in limbo. Just that your own feelings are really confused with this sort of setup!

Keep working on your stuff... .and not working on her stuff, and you are going to be happy with yourself. What more can you really ask for?
Logged
formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 03:19:09 PM »

 

Max,

In chaotic situations... .having a structured decision making process helps.  I'm coming at this from a military angle... .we had to make lots of big... huge decisions... .

Anyway... .step 1 was to try and figure out how long you had to make a decision.  No need to make a decision early because you are giving up time to gather data to make a good decision... .also... .sometimes things can be OBE... .Overcome by events... .making an early decision is discounting what may happen between when you make the decision... .and when it must be made.

So... .what I'm saying is that most senior military guys... .that make lots of big... important decisions... .rarely make a decision early.  It's based on some sort of timeline.

So... .is there a timeline that matters to you?  Don't think about anyone else... just you.

Then think about the life going on around you... .any big timeline issues there... .  You should also consider your fiancee and her timelines.

Once you have those facts... .then you can try to set a deadline to make a decision. 

Setting a deadline will help take the pressure off now... .because you have allocated time to make that decision... .rather than wondering if this is the weekend I'm packing up and leaving.

Hope some of this makes sense.

I'd say give it a set amount of months (don't tell her)... .and work it the best you can to find the right treatment. 

Hang in there!
Logged

Lucky Jim
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 6211


« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2014, 04:29:52 PM »

Hey Max,

You mention how exhausted you feel.  Do you anticipate that you will be less emotionally drained after marriage to your SO?  If so, how do you see that happening?  What can you do now to regain your focus and center?

I have been in your shoes, my friend, and understand how stressful it is.

Hang in there,

Lucky Jim
Logged

    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Moselle
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 1899


Every day is a gift. Live it fully


« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2014, 04:49:00 PM »

Maxsterling,

Such a difficult decision, I am in the throes of the same heartrending thing. Sorry to hear about your considering ending it. I've be there for a few hours today too Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I have tried different approaches, softly softly, empathetic, and blunt. Blunt has worked the best by far. But my W has the added complicating factor of NPD so it may not apply in your case.

I'm firmly in the space of deciding what I want and giving her the options to come along or look elsewhere. I know she has her doubts and pet hates about me too, and that is her thing (ie not in my sphere of concern). It becomes my thing when she starts telling me how to change.

One aspect of nurturing is that a woman should never try to get her man to change. It's a sign of respect too. "You are different and I'm OK with it"

Respect is absolutely non-negotiable on my side. What is your boundary regarding respect?
Logged

maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2014, 04:56:38 PM »

Formflier - that makes sense. Actually, I have already thought about that, but maybe not quite so systematically.  Right now, I feel exhausted and a bit hurt.  I don't want to make such a decision with those raw emotions floating around.

As far as a timeline - lets's see - we have a vacation the week after next.  I'd rather not shake things up before that.  Also, with the volatility of her job situation right now, I don't think I want to do anything before that is settled.  

Constraints on the other end - probably mid November is about when we need to start paying/doing more for a March wedding.  We have a deposit on the location, and we are in the process of sending out invitations.  I see no reason to stop that process now.  

My feeling is that things may play out on their own either way before mid-November.  And until then I am just going to stick with my previous decision of marriage because I really have nothing to go on now to change it other than feelings.  That ought to give me time to think about things and just evaluate where things are headed.
Logged

waverider
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2014, 05:27:37 PM »

I think ultimately the projection is still getting to you, this is what owning her own decisions is really about. Because you can't make her do anything you can only block the projections more effectively. This does take a long time to be able to do without taking on damage, as it is unnatural.

Formfliers advice about not rushing decisions is valid. Our life is an evolution, which incorporates experience and time. The more time and experience that is incorporated into that evolution the better adapted the result.

Going back to the topic title about seriously considering ending the relationship. This is a stage we have to go through, it is all about decision reaffirming. You are reminding yourself that this is a real choice. Whatever the final decision it will be fully evolved.

Relationships with pwBPD always will be tiring and at times feel futile, a bit like shoveling sand with a pitchfork. you have to learn to put down the fork and leave the sand where it is and get on with something more produce in your own life. Sand seems to shift in its own time it rarely stays in the same spot forever
Logged

  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
MissyM
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 702


« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2014, 09:06:09 PM »

Excerpt
Relationships with pwBPD always will be tiring and at times feel futile, a bit like shoveling sand with a pitchfork. you have to learn to put down the fork and leave the sand where it is and get on with something more produce in your own life. Sand seems to shift in its own time it rarely stays in the same spot forever

Such good advice, I find that leaving my dBPDh to his emotions helps.  The projections can wear me down.  My therapist really recommends that I kind of ignore some of the drama from my dBPh and just validate the underlying emotion.  Since I have been doing that and taking his projections less personally, reminding myself that it is his illness talking, then I feel a lot better. 

Max, interestingly enough my girlfriend with BPD has described saying some of the kinds of things your fiancé has said to you.  She said she has to remind herself that when everything about her husband starts getting on her nerves, that it is really just about her and some underlying anxiety.  A lot of times the anxiety has been getting too close but it can also be just general anxiety about her future.  She told me it took a lot of work for her to realize that was going on, before she really believed it was just the silly things that were annoying her.  I really get a lot of insight and help from this friend.
Logged
Washisheart
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Relationship status: single
Posts: 200



« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2014, 09:29:50 PM »

Wow did I need to see that I am not alone in this! People are asking me for the wedding date and I don't even want to give them one!

He keeps saying he can't marry me for this reason or can't marry me for that reason. ALL BS excuses. He has acted a fool in front of my friends, in front of his cousins. He repeatedly says he doesn't care if I leave it won't phase him in the least. I am tired of being embarrassed by him and his lack of brain to mouth filter.

The latest thing is he keeps accusing me of cheating because he "works nights and doesn't know what I'm doing while he's at work." I finally asked him why would I stay and put up with all this drama and bs if I had someone else? Seriously?

I barely even want to have sex anymore, and I'm sure he's noticed.

I want my peaceful happy place. I just want a normal fun loving relationship. A best friend. A partner. I have gotten to the point where I walk away or play on my phone while he's venting (over and over AND OVER again about the same dumb crap). I don't respond. I act like he's not talking.

I just need him to calm down
Logged
maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2014, 11:28:38 PM »

Washisheart - in my case, I tell some friends and family we are getting married, and they cringe as if they want me to reconsider. 

It's amazing - we may want to have a long term committed relationship, work our butts off towards that, towards marriage, and they throw roadblock after roadblock... .

The stark reality here is, that she could decide her doubts are real and run off, and there is nothing I can do.  After all, I can't not invite my mother to my wedding, and I sure as hell can't stop her from chewing with her mouth open.  And if my fiance says that is a major issue for her enough to call off the wedding... .well... .

And thus my dilemma.  The chance of the above happening is fairly high.  I thought that once we got engaged and started planning, some of that push/pull would die down for awhile.  So now I have to re-evaluate my decision to marry based upon new knowledge that she may have doubts and threaten to call things off many times to the 11th hour.  Is that something I can live with? 

Tonight, I decided to be amorous with her after her depressive day laying in bed.  It had been a loong time.  And now she is back to planning the wedding and talking about how if she loses her job we can't have kids.  Monday - talking about ending things with me because of various doubts.  Thursday?  Back to talking about having kids with me.  I think I have gotten a bit numb to that back and forth.  It's happened so much it doesn't phase me like it used to. 
Logged

nightmoves
***
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 121



« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2014, 11:35:02 PM »

Max -


I feel for you. I really do. You love this woman.

AND - the willingness to accept all that she brings to the table is commendable and I have done the same.

I am not here to confuse you - and NOT suggesting any direction over the other... .but I want to tell you... .from painful experience... .

that you NEED to consider the toll accepting and dealing with this long term will take.

I again am not saying what is the path. Its your rodeo... .and you sure seem to posses the strength and smarts to hold on to anything.

But lets just say that I tell you that you are going to be placed in an purely harsh environment over the next 10 years. Severe weather. Severe and insecure daily status. Flight or fight situations weekly.

You - I am sure - will survive.

BUT... .you need to know one thing.

That environment will NOT change nor abate.

The 75 below zero... .will not become 80 and sunny.

Food and shelter will never be secure.

Fight or flight - will be a part of your life daily.

Again - I have no doubt you will survive.

But you NEED to understand - THAT is what your life will be like.

No doubts.

As strong as you are. As resilient as you will be.

You will NOT be able to will or change the realities.

I have not found ONE person - who writes or blogs about dealing with BPD who have said it "got a bit better over time".

Not one.

You are ALREADY - seeing the honeymoon affect play out. You are ALREADY being "painted black".

Many of us (MOST OF US) had that happen at varying degrees AFTER the marriage. Many of us had that happen AFTER kids.

THEN - YOUR reality changes.

THEN - it will not matter how well you can cope.

THEN - it will not matter what your life has become - and what your soul says to you.

THEN - you HAVE to just survive.

I FULLY understand your dilemma.

But let me ask you something... .

Can you REALLY and HONESTLY say you are not harboring a belief that IF you accept and support and be the best person/husband in the world

... .then maybe she will change.

You may not be able to get to that answer... .but a friendly guess... .

you are.

And I have to tell you ... .from someone who has been in this chaos for a very long time... .no matter HOW strong and willing and loving you are... .it won't.

And the pain of that... .years and years down the line... .you cannot envision even IF I could fully explain it.
Logged
sweetheart
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, together 11 years. Not living together since June 2017, but still in a relationship.
Posts: 1235



« Reply #24 on: September 26, 2014, 04:34:03 AM »

nightmoves in all the posts I have ever read on this forum and I have read 100s, for me what you have written perfectly portrays life with a pwBPD.

Thank you for writing it, I felt so very sad after I had read it. It's kind of out there when someone captures the essence of a life lived in words.

sorry to hijack your thread maxsterling 
Logged

123Phoebe
Staying and Undecided
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 2070



« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2014, 06:50:51 AM »

Max,

This is coming from my perspective, so please take it with a grain of salt.

Chewing with mouths open, not dressing well enough, concerns about your mother's behavior at wedding, your family not being refined enough and her flip-flopping are minor issues compared to the bigger picture.  That being, what are your values when considering a wife, a partner for life?

Let's say that she cannot handle working, period.  Are you prepared to be the sole bread-winner at any point in time?  She may get this job back, or get another one down the line, she may lose that one, too.  What does your future look like if this is the case?  Do you feel that she has enough interests and tools to manage herself while you're away at work?  Do you have enough?  I have no idea what you do for a living, if you make enough money to support a family on one income or if that sort of thing even matters to you.  Only you have an idea of what you'd like your future to look like.  Can she work plus raise children?

Knowing that she dysregulates often, what does that mean once children are added into the mix?  She has shown that animals can stress her out pretty badly.  How would you feel if she treated your children the way she does you and the animals?  Can you function at work, focusing on the wellbeing of your family well enough to perform and reach your goals in life?  Not only shared goals, but your personal ones?

The subject of this thread is that "you're" seriously considering ending this relationship.  Is it because you can't handle her indecision and doubts or because of your own indecision and doubts about marrying this person for your very own reasons?

These are just some things to seriously consider.  All the tools and therapy in the world mean nothing if you're not committed in a realistic and healthy way.  Not only to the relationship, but to yourself

This is your life we're talking about here! 

Logged
waverider
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2014, 07:10:10 AM »

The point of what nightmoves is saying is, what is in it in the long run for you, apart from survival?

Will you look back in 10 years and think that was a good choice?

What can this person uniquely provide for you that is worth the likelihood of harsh times?

Things may get better, maybe even great, but there is a fair chance that it wont.

Is this going to be a joy or a responsibility?

These are questions that I always re examine myself. In truth it is why we are still defacto rather than married. I have also clarified in my own mind there are advantages and freedoms for me that I have never had in any previous relationships. This was not always so, but I have achieved these since being here.

At the back of my mind is also the belief that she will not see old age, she will become barely functional and many of the issues of today will seem petty in comparison to the hardwork that is potentially ahead.  I subconciously plan for this, sounds morbid i know, but I guess it makes this committment still seem just like a chapter.

I dont know the answers to these but I am aware of them. They are all part of the balances that go into my choice to make this work, and working it is.

The deciding factor for me is that conflict which is out of my control has virtually been eliminated, and few people reach that level.  I have evolved within this RS, I am experiencing growth, not just survival. I am in a better place than I have ever been at anytime of my life, despite being financially less secure than at anytime before.

I would not willing enter, what I have already been through, but the rewards at this stage are worth a lot to me.
Logged

  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
Mono No Aware
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 175


« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2014, 09:09:33 AM »

I can tell you right now that I wished I had known about BPD when I was dating. There were signs. They were not as intense, nor as frequent as they are now. But they were there. I kept chalking up all the issues to situations. However, there were just more situations. And they pile up on the pwBPD over time, too. The things that happened 20 years ago keep coming up. They are never resolved in her mind. NEVER.

+1

I have not found ONE person - who writes or blogs about dealing with BPD who have said it "got a bit better over time".

Not one.

+1... .and see thread The New Norm , where “better” = “not getting worse”. It's a matter of perspective really.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=233778.0

Knowing that she dysregulates often, what does that mean once children are added into the mix

I can attest that the dynamics of a woman with BPD and her children can be quite unhealthy for the children. The inconsistency, the knee-jerk illogical self-blame, the splitting black of neighbor children who come over to play, the caustic passive-aggression, all these and more take a serious toll on the kid’s developing mental health.

Logged
Wrongturn1
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Posts: 591



« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2014, 10:09:14 AM »

Max,

I suggest reading the post by Nightmoves above about 10 times.  Some really good wisdom there and questions you need to sort out for yourself before moving forward.  Some other questions to think about in making a decision such as this:

1) From what you have read here and elsewhere, is it typical for someone with BPD to improve after getting married, or deteriorate?

2) Do BPD behaviors typically get better or worse after the pwBPD has children?

3) Are pwBPD typically good parents, or do they more typically harm their children psychologically or otherwise?

4) Can a pwBPD normally be counted on to hold a job/career long-term and provide a stream of income for the family?

5) Do spouses of pwBPD typically have a healthy social life and support system, or do they typically become isolated?

6) Is a pwBPD capable of having a real relationship where they give as well as take?

7) What psychological makeup would a person have to have in order to desire to marry and spend the remainder of their life with a pwBPD?  Is there anything that can be done to address those psychological issues in the non?

Logged
Lucky Jim
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 6211


« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2014, 10:39:13 AM »

Hey Wrongturn1,

Those questions are quite incisive and well phrased. 

Thanks for articulating! 

Lucky Jim
Logged

    A life spent making mistakes is not only more honorable, but more useful than a life spent doing nothing.
George Bernard Shaw
Moselle
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 1899


Every day is a gift. Live it fully


« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2014, 10:49:15 AM »

Wrongturn1,  thanks for sharing. The answers are inconvenient truths. The word 'parasitic' comes to mind. As ugly as it sounds, that is just what it is.

And it's not just one way. It's both ways, until one chooses not to be a host any more. Once that happens, the relationship changes forever. The other must choose to stay parasitic or adapt. I choose the word adapt, because I believe they cannot change who they are. But I believe they can choose to behave better.
Logged

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING
This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

formflier
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



WWW
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2014, 01:14:00 PM »

 

Would like to make sure everyone reading this understands that there are a number of people on this message board that have seen the effects of BPD on their r/s improve dramatically.

Some even say it has been cured or in remission.

So... any statements that you come across saying BPD NEVER gets better or ALWAYS gets worse after this or that life event... .just aren't true

My store is an example of that.  I doubt I will ever claim that BPD traits are completely gone from my r/s... .but compared to where I was 6 months ago... .my life and r/s are dramatically better.

Getting educated about BPD and putting the lessons into work will give you the best chance for your r/s.  They are not a guarantee of anything. 

The closest guarantee that I can give anyone... .is that letting BPD run its course in your r/s without treatment or using lessons on this site is a recipe for disaster. 

I encourage everyone to give it all they have for the sake of their r/s.  However it eventually turns out... .you will be a stronger, healthier person for it... .and will minimize your chances of having regrets.

I'm glad I'm a stayer... .I think I have a good future and I'm willing to work hard to make that future a reality.

Logged

ziniztar
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: I chose to end the r/s end of October 2014. He cheated and pushed every button he could to push me away until I had to leave.
Posts: 599



WWW
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2014, 01:19:24 PM »

masterxling, I understand your struggle 

one thing my new, very healthy roommate told me is this: you don't always have to know the answer... if you don't know it, you can be fine with that for a while as well

right now you've switched to a period of you doubting the r/s again

doubt comes with a lot of fear of deciding the wrong thing

here's the thing: you don't have to decide right now Smiling (click to insert in post)

i hope that takes off the edge a little

x zin
Logged
maxsterling
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic Partner
Relationship status: living together, engaged
Posts: 2772



« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2014, 01:21:31 PM »

Thanks for the advice, everyone.  So much to think about.  Part of me deciding to move forward in this relationship required me to accept that there is a decent chance it won't work out.  A fair number of engagements end before marriage.  And a large percentages of marriages don't last 5 years.  Add BPD - and it's just realistic to keep the possibility of things ending in the back of my mind.  So when I decided to move forward, also in my mind was reserving the right to re-evaluate, change my mind or reconsider.  And also accepting her right to do the same. I tried to base my decision on only me - this is what I want, and put it on her to decide if she wants the same thing. I need to remind myself that I have freedom and time to make a new decision, whatever that may be.

From everyone's responses, it sounds like most of you went into marriage being somewhat in denial or having no knowledge of BPD, and that if you had known more, you would have made a different decision.  Am I right?  I'm sure we all saw red flags, but maybe not put the pieces together?  I was hoping to hear from someone who saw the red flags, put the pieces together, knew about BPD and what it means, and still decided to get married.  The realities of BPD are grim, and it helps to know what I face.  
Logged

maric
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: 9 months out of RS
Posts: 93



« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2014, 01:32:57 PM »

Yes, we did not get married but I moved to another country to be with her, not knowing about BPD.

Hard to say, but if I had known, I think I would have proceed with much more careful. I'm pretty sure the white knight in me would still want to save her, but also, I would not give up on the same amount of things in my life as I did to be with her.

Almost 10 months out of the rs, I am still healing, and after walking through hell, I am finally putting my life together again – except for my crushed self-steem, but this is something I have to deal with myself.
Logged

takingandsending
*******
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Married, 15 years; together 18 years
Posts: 1121



« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2014, 02:58:51 PM »

Max,

You're right. I ignored the red flags, and didn't explore to find out about BPD. I never considered my wife had a mental illness (even though I said under my breath countless times that she was crazy). It's not fair for us to place our own charge on you in a difficult decision. I apologize if I have done so.

It is a very personal decision, and I respect your process greatly. From my own side, as I have read your posts, my filters thought that perhaps you had growing reservations that ran deeper than irritation at your fiancee's criticisms of you and her own struggles. You are examining them, which is really brave. Keep going.

And formflier, you are right as well. I have been re-reading the success stories, reading people like oceanheart and others who have really had the incredible fortitude to weather this illness and come out the other side, if not in "remission", in appreciation for other and happiness for themselves. Please understand that that hope for us nons in bad RS's is a frightening thing. I have had my hopes and prayers for my wife crushed so often. And I think that the percentages do not support so many happy endings. It is, as always, a difficult and deeply personal choice that one must make on their own.

I appreciate all the support and love given on this site. Truly, there are a lot of amazing people working through their process.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
Logged

ziniztar
*****
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: I chose to end the r/s end of October 2014. He cheated and pushed every button he could to push me away until I had to leave.
Posts: 599



WWW
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2014, 03:38:44 PM »

From everyone's responses, it sounds like most of you went into marriage being somewhat in denial or having no knowledge of BPD, and that if you had known more, you would have made a different decision.  Am I right?  I'm sure we all saw red flags, but maybe not put the pieces together?  I was hoping to hear from someone who saw the red flags, put the pieces together, knew about BPD and what it means, and still decided to get married.  The realities of BPD are grim, and it helps to know what I face.  

I knew about it from the start and went ahead with the r/s. Okay, I didn't get married, and we still don't live together. But the fact he was honest about it, was going to therapy himself (meaning he wanted to change things) meant the world to me. They still do. I really don't know how things will end, if we really turn out to be a success story and one day I get to marry him when all this is manageable. Lots of hurdles to take before that.

I understand why you're asking this, I've asked the same thing. All I know is I care for him, we have some sort of friendship going on as well, and that I feel he deserves a chance because of all the hard work he's doing. Once the hard work stops, or he keeps taking the same hurdle over and over again... I'm out. He knows that.
Logged
123Phoebe
Staying and Undecided
********
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 2070



« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2014, 03:46:02 PM »

From everyone's responses, it sounds like most of you went into marriage being somewhat in denial or having no knowledge of BPD, and that if you had known more, you would have made a different decision.  Am I right?  I'm sure we all saw red flags, but maybe not put the pieces together?  I was hoping to hear from someone who saw the red flags, put the pieces together, knew about BPD and what it means, and still decided to get married.  The realities of BPD are grim, and it helps to know what I face.  

I'm not married, but would absolutely 100% go through every single thing I have with my guy again.  I have no doubts about him or us or whatever!  I'm not thinking that it will end eventually;  I feel strong enough within myself to be able to handle it if our relationship were to end-- there's a difference.  I feel strong enough to handle anything that comes down the pike.

He's taught me a lot about myself.  Our relationship is great!

Had I not learned what I have from this website about boundaries and values and how to take care of myself, I might be telling a completely different story, facing a different reality... .Not because of what he does, doesn't or might do, but because of what I believe in, who I am.

We ARE the other half of the relationship and bring our own baggage into it.

When I say things like "You can't change her", I'm by no means saying that she can't change.  We do not have the power to change another person, it's not our job anyway, so I stopped trying to change him.  Full stop.

That means not coddling or enabling.  Giving him room to work through things, come to me in his own way, letting him be himself, appreciating him for being him, accepting who he is and not some manifestation of a convoluted dream.

And I think he's wonderful, just the way he is

You know your fiancé.  Can you accept her without wishing for her to change?  Can you handle whatever comes down the pike, without giving yourself up and away, living with regrets?

 

Logged
Grey Kitty
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2014, 11:38:15 PM »

From everyone's responses, it sounds like most of you went into marriage being somewhat in denial or having no knowledge of BPD, and that if you had known more, you would have made a different decision.  Am I right?  I'm sure we all saw red flags, but maybe not put the pieces together?  I was hoping to hear from someone who saw the red flags, put the pieces together, knew about BPD and what it means, and still decided to get married.  The realities of BPD are grim, and it helps to know what I face. 

I got married young, w/o other relationship experience to guide me for or against what I dove into. Looking back, I do see occasional instances of BPD characteristics (red flags) early on, but it was more like once a year a depressive episode that included kitchen-sinking me. Otherwise she is and was very high-functioning, with a career as successful as mine, etc.

Only after ~15 years of marriage did the BPD behavior start to get more frequent, building over another few years to the intensity that ultimately led me here, and I realized there were people just like my wife married to others here.

I started working on myself in the r/s (boundaries, boundaries, boundaries, not JADEing, more boundaries, and validation, and still more boundaries, and still not JADEing... .).

That left my wife dealing with her own stuff 'cuz I wouldn't pick it up, and over a couple years she recovered fully. In the last ~year she has had some serious (sometimes incapacitating) grief, going into depression and anxiety, which she is dealing with as best she can... .and is owning, rather than blaming me/projecting onto me. I am soo proud of her passing this test with flying colors!

... .thinking about all this and your situation... .

Can you grow, learn, and thrive in a r/s with your fiancé? Not just live in fear of what she will do next?
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: 1 2 [All]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!