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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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Author Topic: now exH wants to come by to 'just drop stuff off'  (Read 506 times)
momtara
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« on: September 24, 2014, 02:09:37 PM »

I have been setting boundaries with my exH, not responding to texts or phone calls except in emergencies, and trying to keep the focus of emails on the kids.

He sent a nice email today, and of course, I was thinking maybe he's calming down after his latest angry episodes.  The trigger of a recent court situation is fading.  However, maybe I'm being snowed.  Because in his email, he said he had new clothes for one of our kids (who just had a b-day) and wants to drop them off tomorrow night.

That will inevitably mean he wants to come in the house and the hangs out with them a bit.  Even if it doesn't, it still means seeing him when I am trying to stay away so my head doesn't keep spinning.

He sees them only every other weekend and this helps me feel less stressed too.  I don't want to set a pattern by letting him come by.  But this is a small request to refuse.

I could say, "That's nice that you have clothes!  A quick dropoff is fine" and give a time.  But really, I should say in some polite way, save them for when you see the kids next weekend.  There's no reason he needs to drop those clothes off a few days early.  Maybe I need more backbone and just say  no.

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momtara
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« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2014, 03:52:25 PM »

and if I say no, how to do so without being triggering?  (yes, I know, not my problem, but it is.)
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« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2014, 05:03:49 PM »

"That's very kind of you, the kids will appreciate your thoughtfulness. I can scoop up the clothes during the next exchange. Thanks for thinking of them."
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Rubies
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2014, 03:12:44 PM »

"That's very kind of you, the kids will appreciate your thoughtfulness. I can scoop up the clothes during the next exchange. Thanks for thinking of them."

Perfect!

Now stand in front of the mirror and practice your "No."
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Cmjo
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2014, 01:11:59 PM »

I just got into a similar dilemma as you, but needed instant response.

For the first time  i sent a BIFF email this week about school pick ups and thought it was all sorted down to the last detail. He replied ok.

We were out in the country for the day today, and on our way home to respect the drop off at his house, but he rung his son, saying he was going out, so would ring us when he got back. My instant thought, you havent seen the kids for five days and you are just "going out" instead of being there for them?

2 hours after dropoff time he rang me, I panicked when I saw the incoming call, he hasnt rung me for weeks! Said he was at home. I said ok i expected to drop the kids with you at 6, well I will bring them round now. He said no dont worry I will come and get them, and by the way ive been to the cashpoint can I hand you this months money. My heart sank, I really dont want any contact. He has been so abusive.

When he arrived the kids went to his car with all their school book for next three days. I hoped like usual he would just give them the envelope to give me but no, he rang the doorbell and asked if he could come in! And he said he wanted to give me the money for sport as well... .I was just panicking, after the horrendous screaming matches of the last few weeks... .

I said no lets discuss another time not in front of the children, he looked sulky and walked off!

Ahhh sabotage of my careful planning! What should I do... .send him an email explaining I dont want to see him and to respect the plan I sent him... .? Like you Momtara trying to enforce boundaries is a  nightmare if they are all out to ignore them!
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C x
momtara
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2014, 11:26:50 PM »

Yeah, what do you do in that situation?  He has a check for you and you want the check.  Then he tries to come in the house.  Then the kids are all over him.  He's not even really giving you a warning or asking you, he's just doing it.  And he's done it before, so hard to stop him now.

I am in a similar situation.  This weekend ex sent more emails saying he'll see me tomorrow.  I didn't respond about him dropping clothes off at our house, but it's also parents' night for the kids' school.  But I never conclusively said I'm going.  He has just decided he will see me there.

All of these back to school activities will end soon, luckily, and that means fewer excuses for him to bug me.

For now, for me to set a new boundary, I think it has to be gradual.  Gradual boundaries are not very strong, I realize, but that's what i've been doing.  I fully realize that others here would probably disagree with me - and they may be right (not sure).  The thing is, if you've let your ex in the house in the past, for instance, it's hard to suddenly say no without a reason or a warning.  

So tonight I struggled and finally wrote a response to my exH.  In addition to saying he'd be here tomorrow, he asked if I want to take the kids to dinner with him when he comes tomorrow.  I said because of recent fighting and angry words, it's only fair to avoid that.  I also said that the best way to avoid confusion is to stick with the parenting plan we have in place.  So I did hedge a little and tie it to his behavior, and yes he may think "OK, in time I'll stop fighting with her and then maybe we'll do things together."  So yes, it still sets up a problem down the road, but I didn't give him a time limit for when I can do such things.  I may get yelled at by people here for not simply saying "I don't think dinner is a good idea."  Or a simple "No."  But I am gradually getting better at boundaries.

I did a consultation with Bill Eddy last year and he said he has heard of cases like mine, and the father was still trying to engage the mom even into the kids' teenage years.  I don't want to still be dealing with all this stuff a year from now (him asking to come over at random times etc.) so I hope I won't be.
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Rubies
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2014, 11:43:10 PM »

I had BPDxh's weekend visitation start Friday at school release and for him to pick DD up at the school.  Sunday evening exchange was at the police station parking lot under the camera.   I never got out of my car.   Any conversation he started was met with a smile and, "Send me an email."  I drove off as soon as DD and her stuff was loaded.

I didn't want him at my home or in my neighborhood.

Also in the visitation order was any variation to the visitation schedule needed to be made 30 days in advanced.   Giving in and doing informal accommodations for him became so convoluted and demanding he'd rage I was in the "wrong" place.   Any further request was met with,  "Send an email."  Ignore them.  It was the schedule he wanted, I held him to it.

Before the divorce was final our judge explained to him in explicit details the rights and responsibilities of all of us.  I did not have to accommodate his irresponsibility and selfishness.   If he could not be there to pick up his daughter within a half hour of his appointed pick up time, he forfeited his weekend.  We did not have to accommodate him.

Child support to be mailed.  If it was more than 5 days late I was instructed to report to the judge for support enforcement and garnishment.  

The divorce pulled all his hooks out of me.  The court orders are there for our protection.  Use them.  Be done with the BS.  

Our JOB is to set examples for our children on dealing with their other parent in a safe and sane manner.  We need to set examples of good boundaries.  Choosing to participate in the crazy making does not serve our children well at all!
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momtara
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2014, 11:59:39 PM »

Rubies, you are so right.

Certain things, like pickups/dropoffs at police station, are things I don't want to resort to yet.  But I do feel better when I have not talked to exH in a while.  My head spins less.  So yes, it's nice to find ways to avoid engaging.   I am sticking to email now and being gradual about some boundaries and firmer about others.  In the past, I did get sucked into texts and phone calls with him, and now I don't.

There was a time before the divorce, when we were separated, when these things were harder.  i put all kinds of language in the parenting plan about notice for changing pickup and dropoff times, etc., so a lot of problems were solved that way.  I guess that's the benefit of trying these things out while separated, to figure out how to make rules to avoid future problems.
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Cmjo
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 03:03:50 AM »

Hi Momtara, like you I am treading on eggshells every day, and enforcing boundaries gradually. We have to do it our own way. I cant wage war like some mums could, but even if I can keep this boundary setting going for one month  i will be making progress.

What is your aim?

I would like my exuBPD to actually go to get diagnosed/assessed and start treatment.

My other aim is for him to behave respectfully to me and the children. If both of those happened we could be amicable and even one day share parenting and take the kids on outings together.

But I think treatment has to be the first step.

C xx
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C x
momtara
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 08:36:45 AM »

You may have to ask for a psych eval and make sure it's done by the right person who does the right tests.  I didn't ask for that early in my divorce and have been regretting it since.  It's harder to ask later.  You need a higher standard.

My goal would be for exH to behave rationally or to not interfere in our lives - either or.  I don't know if either is a possibility.
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Rubies
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 10:19:56 AM »

Thing is, it's been stated repeatedly "you" can't make your BPDs do anything.  If you could you  wouldn't be divorcing.  Now you're stuck in manipulation games with them.   Yes, I said it, you are trying to manipulate your BPDs into doing things they are incapable of doing, you are one half of the problem.   

Cut to End Game.  The judge cannot protect you unless you take these issues into the court.  The judge is the only one who can issue explicit boundaries to the BPDs with consequences of pain.  You have to want them, (you don't) you have to report violations, (you won't).   

Creating a safe place for your children and yourself is obviously not your prime objective.  Why is that?

BPDxh tried all of these antics while the divorce was in progress including bad behavior at the school and shoving his way into my home.  The consequences were a temporary restraining order and a spanking from the judge.   BPDs find new victims to play games with when you refuse to bleed for them.

I didn't have a lawyer to handle my divorce, I did it myself.  What I did have was a mental health therapist specializing in BPD who was also an ex-cop. 
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momtara
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2014, 10:37:43 AM »

You have to want them, (you don't) you have to report violations, (you won't).   

Creating a safe place for your children and yourself is obviously not your prime objective.  Why is that?

I appreciate your tough talk and your honesty.  Sometimes I need that.  The only thing I can say is that whichever boundaries I set, whatever else I do, he is still seeing them unsupervised until he does something really bad.  I create a safe place most of the time, when they are with me.  Then he takes them for the weekend and brings them back.  I could set really strong boundaries tomorrow and he is still taking them for the weekend.  Supervised visitation is temporary unless you can show really awful behavior.  What did your ex do that resulted in a restraining order?   If I go to court over something weak and I fail, it doesn't help the situation, only sends me more into debt, and the situation will stay what it is.  But I could be wrong - that's why I post here, and that's why I appreciate the help.

Which violations am I not reporting?

He is not someone with a history of violence.  He is someone with mental illness.  The kids are very young.  It makes me uneasy and nervous.  That's the summary.  Can I legally do anything aobut
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Rubies
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2014, 12:12:43 PM »

BPDxh became verbally and emotionally abusive to me at the school in front of our child, then screaming at me from the front steps as I walked away down the sidewalk. 

This was right after he garnered his visitation pick up from the school to DD's (my) neighborhood bus stop.  He lived 2 blocks from the school with his mother.  This of course was an opportunity to play games and he was a no show, calling with an excuse 5 minutes before the bus arrived.  His agenda was to come to my home.

I was instructed by the judge to make arrangements for BPDxh to pick up his belongings he still had at my home.  With the help of family his stuff was moved to the barn for easy access and nonengagement.   Not good enough for him, he ended up beating on my walls and windows and trying to bust down my doors in a rage.

Give them the rope, they hang themselves ONLY when we hand it to the judge.

Because they are our children's other parent it is difficult to legally provide protection until after a crime is committed against them.   There are many things we can do so we don't raise another generation who will treat us like crap.

Your children need to see it's not okay that he treats you this way, or anyone treats you this way.   Mom has enforceable boundaries and is always safe even when the other parent isn't.   Be there for your kids, not the BPDx.  Accept he's not going to change and jump hoops for you or the kids.  Be the emotionally stable one.

Keep your kids surrounded by 3rd party mandated reporters.  Frequent well child check-ups with their dedicated pediatrician, weekly MH therapy, school, pre-school, sports, community activities.  You do this independent of BPD.

Your BPDxh does not have to be a part of your life.  He will be a part of your children's lives until they turn 18 and can make the choice for themselves.  It's important they learn effective coping strategies and gain the tools to survive.  You do it by example and let the professionals provide handle the rest of it.



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momtara
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2014, 12:30:08 PM »

Thank you.  All of those things are good advice. 

I am getting stronger every day.

Did your ex still have unsupervised visitation after he did all that?  How old was your child?
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Rubies
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2014, 03:04:43 PM »

Thank you.  All of those things are good advice. 

I am getting stronger every day.

Did your ex still have unsupervised visitation after he did all that?  How old was your child?

The prompt for the separation and divorce was BPDh picking DD up from a church function and leaving the state, telling her I was crazy and dangerous and she needed protection from ME.   Although DD was 15 at the time, she was low functioning 100% autism, spun out, kept in isolation except for once a week church activity and this was the first time she was left there without a parent.

When ordered by the judge to return her to me, he still got unsupervised 3 weekends a month.  Nobody was happy, not the judge and not DD, but that's how the laws are written.  The judge has to abide the laws.

DD didn't have official diagnosis until I gained custody.   My parenting plan was official diagnostics and public school special ed in her community. 100% low functioning autism, ADHD, IQ 65, unreasonable fears and a neurological disorder affecting fine motor skills.  BPDxh and his mommy told the school she was illiterate.   To her horror she was stuck in the "retard" room without a book.

That's what BPD stress does.  You can't let BPDs keep you spun into Crazy B*tch so you're stressing them too.  You are the only consistent advocate your children have.   You are their sanctuary from the BPD BS.

DDwD learned her tools and strategies to keep herself safe as possible.  Even 4 year olds know how to use a phone, use a restroom by themselves, ask a stranger to call the cops when they're scared of their parent.   She learned on her own what her dad was all about.  She tells me often she appreciates I enforce the boundaries of the No Bull___ Zone.  When she felt safe enough she confided she had tried to bring up another personality strong enough to help her escape her dad on the cross-country trip.  She had a name for her.  Moms can't handle that stuff if we're spun out already.  I told her to take those positive qualities she admired and work at making them part of herself.

DD went no contact with her dad when she turned 18.  :)D did not like living on the edge of the Black Hole.  Her progression from where we started?  She's high functioning Aspergers, PTSD, IQ 140.  She is completely mainstreamed, honor roll, and was prom princess last spring.   She's in her 5th year of high school with all college prep academics, and will be honor roll again.  Nobody there remembers her first "label."   They know she's a princess among the jocks, she's awesomely smart, beautiful, funny and not afraid to be her quirky self.  

You can't fix BPD because most don't want to be fixed.  :)o what you CAN do and that's fix your own behaviors.




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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2014, 03:08:26 PM »

Momtara,

Did you ever try to get a restraining order on him? That may help - he sounds like a child!
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momtara
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2014, 12:23:07 PM »

I had one when he did some nonsense before the divorce.  Would do it again if things get bad.

So what happened was, he did come and I did see him.  It was parents' night at the school so I couldn't really avoid him.  He has a right to come there.  Then I had to go get the kids so he started walking with me.  He was in a fine mood, but I was just uncomfortable because of past incidents.  I didn't tell him to leave though.  We walked in silence.  Then he wanted to go pick up one child while I picked up the other.  :)umbly, I don't know why, I loosened my boundaries and said ok, and told the day care he'd be picking our other child up.  It's not the end of the world - I was two blocks away and met up with them right after - but I had said before that he shouldn't do pickups.  At least I gave permission, though; he didn't just go in there without it.   Anyway, I did tell him he wasn't coming up to our apt., and he did not.  He seemed in an ok mood, but later sent me a tense email saying to make sure the kids' bags are packed when he picks them up for weekend.  I didn't and won't respond to that.  I could have been more cordial with him, I guess.  It's just hard having to change my moods to suit his all the time.  He goes a long time between seeing the kids, so I see why he did that.  But I feel better not having to have the disruption of seeing him between.  He still calls them on the phone.
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Rubies
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2014, 05:30:17 PM »

Yes, he has the right to be at the school.  He doesn't have the right to be at the school with you... .unless you allow it.

Yes, he has the right to be an ass, he does not have the right to be an ass to you... .unless you allow it.

Why do you give him permission to make you uncomfortable?  It appears you are playing the push/pull with him.  You spend money for court orders then don't bother to enforce them.  What good are they if you won't use them?  They are the enforceable boundary.

You're the one with the power to say No, I don't want you sitting with me, no, I don't want you walking with me, no, I don't want you at my home, no, you are not occupying my time.    You have the power to disengage and do something better with your life
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momtara
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« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 01:45:28 AM »

I'm working on it. 

Sometimes I worry about saying the wrong thing and regretting it later.  With an email, I can think about the language I use to disengage.  When he just shows up somewhere, it's hard to think of what to do right away.  I"m learning, and this board helps a lot.
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Rubies
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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 10:08:53 AM »

I'm working on it. 

Sometimes I worry about saying the wrong thing and regretting it later.  With an email, I can think about the language I use to disengage.  When he just shows up somewhere, it's hard to think of what to do right away.  I"m learning, and this board helps a lot.

Do you have your own therapist?  Having one who understands BPD was invaluable to me.    Knowing if I gave him an inch he would try for the mile was important.   Learning my own comfort was my first priority, not his, was important.

When he just shows up somewhere you say, "Get away from me I do not want you around me.  I will see you at visitation exchange.  If you have something important to say, send an email."

The biggest traumas to DD was her dad popping up out of nowhere to see her at random times.   She still fears this.  He fears the consequences if he does it again.  It will be painful.
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momtara
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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 10:23:45 AM »

Yes, I started with a therapist who understands.  Wish I'd gone to him all along.  Thought I would save money - but in the end, it costs more not to.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 10:38:18 AM »

It seems like one of the issues is a belief that if your ex takes medication and goes to therapy, things will be ok. Is that true for you?

Deep down, are you holding out hope?



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momtara
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 11:57:00 AM »

LandL:

Not really.  I do think that therapy is very important for him to be able to cope and be a better parent.  I also think that medication at least helps with his depression.  It isn't going to cure him.

He has been on antidepressants around since we started the divorce, so it would bother me a lot of he was off them.  I know they were helping him.  Six months ago, he said they were helping him a lot.  He also said that he was always anxious during our marriage and he really needed to get divorced.  He also said it was good for him to see the kids just every two weeks, and his time with them was more fulfilling when he did.

Then he got off his medicine for whatever reason and became angrier and more pressuring.

Do you mean hope for us getting back together, or hope for him to be a better parent?  I do think he can be a better parent.  I don't think, if he really has BPD, that medicine is going to cure him or make him healthy enough for us to get back together... .I do believe that if there was some new treatment, or he found the right combination and it solved most or all of his problems, there's always a chance someday things could work out.  However, I don't really believe this is likely, but I never want to say never on anything.

I am more pessimistic now than I was a few months ago.  I know that he at least needs to stay in talk therapy (because he has no one he talks to or trusts) and on at least his antidepressants.

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