she is vicious after biweekly therapy

[Mike_confused]

The day after my wife sees her therapist, she habitually attacks me for one thing or another.  She claims her therapist advises her to speak her true feelings.   I have no doubt of that.  I do find it curious that she attacks and berates me for things that she previously agreed to, was involved with, planned herself, or seemed to enjoy.

I would probably not want to ever how how she skews things in her session.  I also have no idea whether her therapist, after two years, has identified the BPD in my wife.  I suspect that she has.

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[Lunira]

I do find it curious that she attacks and berates me for things that she previously agreed to, was involved with, planned herself, or seemed to enjoy.

Maybe she originally did all that stuff with the idea that it would keep you happy (which would keep you around -- they fear abandonment), not because she really wanted to?

[Mike_confused]

I thought she wanted to, given that most of it was her idea.   Case in point:  she wanted a vacation to an area where she lived for a time during her childhood.   I agreed.  I made the point of the trip to be to do only what she wanted.  I did my very best to do this, consciously.  She seemed to have a great time.   Everything we did was her idea while on vacation.

We got back last week, she saw her therapist and now I ruined her vacation.   I doubt that.  I suspect that it is rather a spin off of a major war she has going with her screwball miscreant sister - she is unable to deal harshly with her sister, so I catch it.

Not something I am willing to tolerate, so I haven't seen nor talked to her in 3 days.

[Mike_confused]

Lunira,

it has been my experience that she does nothing with the thought of keeping me happy.   I have never detected any concern on her part for my happiness.   

[nightmoves]

Mike confused -

I am sorry - but I had to laugh at your last comment... .

"it has been my experience that she does nothing with the thought of keeping me happy.   I have never detected any concern on her part for my happiness.   "

Again - not laughing insensitively... .at all... .just at the irony that we all feel when reading that ... .and from so many that can relate... .

[Mike_confused]

Don't apologize for laughing!   I am to the point now where I laugh - the behavior is so predictable.

[maxsterling]

She claims her therapist advises her to speak her true feelings. 

Well, I would think that all therapists are advised to instruct patients to do that.  After all, much anguish comes from keeping things in - for all of us!  The problem here is, the dynamic is different when dealing with BPD - I may keep my true feelings in as a protective measure - I want to protect myself from rage, violence, and try and maintain as much peace and quiet in the short term as I possibly can.  So, our couples counselor wants me to speak my feelings more without thinking about what I am saying first.  And my brain and experience says that goes against the lessons on here, that if I simply state my feelings without thinking about how to say them, that comes across as an invalidation to her, and I face rage.  

On the flip side, my fiancé says the same thing - that she *has* to say what is on her mind or she will lose control.  fair enough.  But the problem is, the BPD means she really doesn't know what her feelings are!  She even admitted to this the other night, that she sometimes has emotional reactions to things that she thinks has to do with her past, yet she doesn't have a specific memory of what she is reacting to.  In other words, her emotions are often a reaction to things she can't identify.  My fiancé says it is PTSD, but I really think this is just typical BPD, but she refuses to own up to that.  PTSD = "I am the victim."  BPD = "I am the cause."

So here is the problem - your wife's counselor's advice is correct for people who have some knowledge of and control over their own emotions.  pwBPD don't have that.  Your wife is speaking her feelings as she interprets them, but she doesn't know what her feelings are!  So you get criticism and blame and abuse, when her real issue is internal.

[Mike_confused]

That is an accurate interpretation... .she has no idea what her feelings actually are.   She has the right to speak her mind.   I have the right to not subject myself to it for the rest of our lives together.

[meerkat1]

I see this with my wife as well. So many things she rages at me about are things that I see that we discussed and agreed upon. And so many other things were things I just straight up agreed with her on. It does not seem to matter. If she has some feeling that things did not go exactly the way she wanted them to, it really does not matter if it was something we agreed about or if it was just her idea. She will rage and blame me for it.

I love the ones where she will say ':)o you think I should do this(put in anything here)?' I can enthusiastically agree and go along with it. Then when things don't go right she will yell at me cause I agreed and blame me for not stopping her from doing whatever it is she did. And If i don't agree, well it just happens sooner rather than later.

The difference is she does not need a therapist to do this.

I am thinking her therapist has no idea what they are doing. To tell your pwBPD to simply let it out on you is ridiculous. Have you thought of letting her therapist know the effect it is having on both of you?

[maric]

I thought she wanted to, given that most of it was her idea.   Case in point:  she wanted a vacation to an area where she lived for a time during her childhood.   I agreed.  I made the point of the trip to be to do only what she wanted.  I did my very best to do this, consciously.  She seemed to have a great time.   Everything we did was her idea while on vacation.

We got back last week, she saw her therapist and now I ruined her vacation.   I doubt that.  I suspect that it is rather a spin off of a major war she has going with her screwball miscreant sister - she is unable to deal harshly with her sister, so I catch it.

Not something I am willing to tolerate, so I haven't seen nor talked to her in 3 days.

Hey Mike,

I guess this kind of behaviour is quite common. Exactly the same happened to me. I bought her a plane ticket to Brazil – we were supposed to travel together. At first she was super happy, telling everybody about it and making a big fuss out of it. The minute she got in Brazil, she said the ticket was a strategy to MANIPULATE HER on my part. I went nuts.

[maxsterling]

I thought she wanted to, given that most of it was her idea.   Case in point:  she wanted a vacation to an area where she lived for a time during her childhood.   I agreed.  I made the point of the trip to be to do only what she wanted.  I did my very best to do this, consciously.  She seemed to have a great time.   Everything we did was her idea while on vacation.

We got back last week, she saw her therapist and now I ruined her vacation.   I doubt that.  I suspect that it is rather a spin off of a major war she has going with her screwball miscreant sister - she is unable to deal harshly with her sister, so I catch it.

Not something I am willing to tolerate, so I haven't seen nor talked to her in 3 days.

Hey Mike,

I guess this kind of behaviour is quite common. Exactly the same happened to me. I bought her a plane ticket to Brazil – we were supposed to travel together. At first she was super happy, telling everybody about it and making a big fuss out of it. The minute she got in Brazil, she said the ticket was a strategy to MANIPULATE HER on my part. I went nuts.

Interesting.  We have tickets to go to NY (where she is from) the week after next.  I wonder if the same scenario will play out.  I suspect it will be mostly fun, but also expect:

- her to claim that I am not social with her friends/family

- her to say I am not excited enough

- her to talk about how exciting it is there and how boring it is here.

I really don't see her claiming after the fact that I ruined things.  But it's possible.

[maric]

She claims her therapist advises her to speak her true feelings. 

 So, our couples counselor wants me to speak my feelings more without thinking about what I am saying first.  And my brain and experience says that goes against the lessons on here, that if I simply state my feelings without thinking about how to say them, that comes across as an invalidation to her, and I face rage.  

On the flip side, my fiancé says the same thing - that she *has* to say what is on her mind or she will lose control.  fair enough.  But the problem is, the BPD means she really doesn't know what her feelings are!  She even admitted to this the other night, that she sometimes has emotional reactions to things that she thinks has to do with her past, yet she doesn't have a specific memory of what she is reacting to.

And Max,

I have been following your story for some days, and maybe what happened to me can give you some light.

I dealt with the same pwBPD material of choice: doubts. There were this cycle that happened when she started to have doubts about us. I asked what was the problem and I was the one to blame, every time. I did not dress correctly; then I would buy new clothes and make up. I had bad breath in the morning; then I would buy whatever was in the drugstore to help with that. Then I was fat; I started exercising. I fixed everything I could and then we'll have some months of peace.

The final excuse was: you are not a man (we were on a lesbian relationship). I would move mountains to change whatever was the complaint at the moment, but with the last one was a lost battle, as of course I could and would never become a man. :/ It was insane. And I guess that even if I magically did, she would find some other fault to complain.

Apart from that, the thing about speaking my mind was something that I was instinctively very very careful about – I did not know about the BPD until months after the break up. I got a gut feeling about it and always tried to do it the sweetest and peaceful way as possible, if I need something. But most of the time, I try to deal with my needs myself. I can give you an example: I was supposed to move from a flat close to the place where I was living at the time. She did not offer any help, she said she was busy and I let it be. It really did not bother me, I made the moving myself happily and calmly. In the same week, a friend of hers was moving too: she helped him move. :/ Still, I did not make anything of it, just let it be. Some days after I heard this: "You are angry with me because I did not help you move! It's so much pressure! I cannot help you with everything!" This required me a patience of a monk to hear. I was aware of the "not helping" the whole time, and, as aware as I was, I HAVE NOT complained about it, I did everything to NOT put her into a rage and be in peace, and even though she found a way to rage.

The moment we broke up – because she had "doubts" and then proceed to cheat me with my replacement  – I lost it and then I spoke my mind... .it was irreversible. She just left, I lost my vacation, my girlfriend and all the work I have put on the rs.

So, I don't know, since you are truly commited to stay with BPDgf, if speaking your mind would really do any good to the rs. It's just that they don't understand what is going on... .some kind of emotional retardment or something.

(Sorry for mistakes, English is not my first language)

[formflier]

 

What do you guys do when they "flip" stories?  Might be good to hears some stories... .and then see if we can work together to get a better response.

Flip stories... .is the change from this is a great idea... to a a manipulation kind of thing.

[maric]

Hi Formflier,

this thing about flipping... .I thought a lot about it. My perception is that once they are triggered, they have their anxiety building and building, and also fear. Then, of course, the irrational part wants to run away, sabotage everything, just do anything to be away from the situation. And then they need some kind of "rationality" to it, to mask the fear and anxiety and justifying the flipping... .so they "change their minds". I have the feeling that is their way to get away with murder. 

So, I think the cycle goes like this:

trigger --> anxiety + fear --> sabotage --> need to justify irrational behavior --> flipping

Does that make any sense for you?

[maric]

Also, at least in my case, it seemed in some sort of way that everything – flipping, cheating, gaslighting, devaluating – was meant to justify some kind of irrational fear she had, could not explain and dumped into me.

Very unfair, to say the least.

[maxsterling]

And Max,

I have been following your story for some days, and maybe what happened to me can give you some light.

I dealt with the same pwBPD material of choice: doubts. There were this cycle that happened when she started to have doubts about us. I asked what was the problem and I was the one to blame, every time. I did not dress correctly; then I would buy new clothes and make up. I had bad breath in the morning; then I would buy whatever was in the drugstore to help with that. Then I was fat; I started exercising. I fixed everything I could and then we'll have some months of peace.

The final excuse was: you are not a man (we were on a lesbian relationship). I would move mountains to change whatever was the complaint at the moment, but with the last one was a lost battle, as of course I could and would never become a man. :/ It was insane. And I guess that even if I magically did, she would find some other fault to complain.

Apart from that, the thing about speaking my mind was something that I was instinctively very very careful about – I did not know about the BPD until months after the break up. I got a gut feeling about it and always tried to do it the sweetest and peaceful way as possible, if I need something. But most of the time, I try to deal with my needs myself. I can give you an example: I was supposed to move from a flat close to the place where I was living at the time. She did not offer any help, she said she was busy and I let it be. It really did not bother me, I made the moving myself happily and calmly. In the same week, a friend of hers was moving too: she helped him move. :/ Still, I did not make anything of it, just let it be. Some days after I heard this: "You are angry with me because I did not help you move! It's so much pressure! I cannot help you with everything!" This required me a patience of a monk to hear. I was aware of the "not helping" the whole time, and, as aware as I was, I HAVE NOT complained about it, I did everything to NOT put her into a rage and be in peace, and even though she found a way to rage.

The moment we broke up – because she had "doubts" and then proceed to cheat me with my replacement  – I lost it and then I spoke my mind... .it was irreversible. She just left, I lost my vacation, my girlfriend and all the work I have put on the rs.

Interesting.  My fiance was once a lesbian.  Not just a fling with a woman, but actually came out to her friends and family, and declared herself lesbian.  Not bisexual, a lesbian.  And that was a time when she was sober.  She hasn't specifically told me when that changed, but I have kinda pieced together that she may have cheated on her girlfriend with a man - not sure, though.  That was loong before I met her.  But she she did tell me after that she was "mostly straight" and a few months ago she said "this is the most straight" she has been in her whole life (she says she hasn't been with a woman for 5-6 years).  The reality of what happened to you may actually happen here.  I have actually considered some of her "doubts" may be internal, related to her being unsure if she wants to be with only men (or a man, me) for the rest of her life. 

After just re-reading my post, I'm starting to realize the only relationship red flag I haven't seen from her is that she doesn't have a criminal record.  Maybe I am starting to have doubts, and if I don't, I should.

[maric]

WOW Max! I have read somewhere that their impossibility to know themselves also reflects on their sexuality, so the confusion about being straight, gay or bi. For me and for my xBPDgf, it was the first serious gay relationship. It was super open on her part, she even introduced me to her family, I had even traveled along with them for 2 weeks. They liked me, because they had even invited me for traveling together next year (this year). Guess who she took on the trip this time? My replacement, and she had the nerve to write me an email saying how much she enjoyed vacation with him and her family.

About her sexuality, who knows? In my case, I guess being with a girl or boy was just another doubt of her... .just another excuse for not comitting to anything.

I am very sorry for you if this is another problem for you... .I wonder if my replacement might be thinking about it also, as she is moving to my country in 2015. I hope he is! (I hate this man, he knew about our relationship and it did not stop him to chase her too.)

This whole situation destroyed my mind, my self-steem and the life I was planning abroad for 2 years. Also, it left me financially in a bad place. Lots of work in all fronts to overcome Miss Doubts.