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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: Question on how to respond to things.  (Read 406 times)
hurthusband
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« on: September 27, 2014, 09:51:10 AM »

Ok... when a BPD

a. Is in explosion mode and just blowing things waaay up and becoming basically psychotic, what is best response once validating does not work?  

b. Projecting/transferring their pain on you as your fault... ie... they are miserable from their job and people around them and are then bringing up things you have done or saying you are ruining their lives without specfics or ways to fix things

c. You have made a mistake and now the BPD is holding you hostage on it

d. Says you mean things you do not.  This is hard cause I do not want to invalidate them but when its out and out not true what do you do?
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takingandsending
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2014, 03:51:17 PM »

Hi hh - hope any of this helps -

a. Boundaries and self care. Make one effort at validation and then remove yourself (and kids if that applies). It does help my uBPDw if I say, "I want to talk together about ____ when we are both calmer."

b. Try SET once and then boundaries/self-care, "I know if I felt like you were ____, I would be angry/upset/sad too. We do better when we work together" or use formflier's "How are you helping our RS right now by blaming me?" Oddly enough, it helps them to get closer to the emotion versus the story. If the holding on to blame persists, it's time for the boundary, "I want to talk together about ____ when we are both calmer."

c. SET once. Then boundaries. You can apologize but you cannot make someone accept.

d. That's FOG. Whatever you do, don't JADE. Validate the feeling behind the words if you can find it. What she feels is valid. What she asserts may be invalid and should not be validated.

Thoughts?
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hurthusband
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 09:22:05 AM »

Hi hh - hope any of this helps -

a. Boundaries and self care. Make one effort at validation and then remove yourself (and kids if that applies). It does help my uBPDw if I say, "I want to talk together about ____ when we are both calmer."

b. Try SET once and then boundaries/self-care, "I know if I felt like you were ____, I would be angry/upset/sad too. We do better when we work together" or use formflier's "How are you helping our RS right now by blaming me?" Oddly enough, it helps them to get closer to the emotion versus the story. If the holding on to blame persists, it's time for the boundary, "I want to talk together about ____ when we are both calmer."

c. SET once. Then boundaries. You can apologize but you cannot make someone accept.

d. That's FOG. Whatever you do, don't JADE. Validate the feeling behind the words if you can find it. What she feels is valid. What she asserts may be invalid and should not be validated.

Thoughts?

Okay so SET one time is enough.  It seems ridiculous to keep on SET and they still keep hammering... i just emotional toll.  JADE is a hard one... Particulary the justify or explain.  The hardest thing is I understand how she sees things and the pain that might come with decisions or things that happen.  The hard part is she will never look at things from my perspective or that all decisions had negative consequences to them, or how things affect me.  I know that trying to give her my perspective to better understand in my mind what my actions are will not work with her but with a rational person it should.  I know it does with me. 

ie... We did have an abortion which I regret now and she does too.  She blames me completely for it.  I certainly told her that I supported whatever decision she made.  I did not want to have any input on it as it is a hard decision, but I did not want her to have the burden all on her since this was both of us.  I said at the time it might be best with current situation to hold off on a baby.  Within the past month, the abuse she inflicted on me had escalated to physical violence, destruction of automobiles, and saying she wanted a divorce.  I have apologized and admitted it was not the right decision, but I am completely blamed.  Same thing as to why she wants me to demand more money from my job when we are being audited and under litigation... o well

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takingandsending
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 10:43:31 AM »

hh - I would be really prone to being pushed into FOG under similar circumstances. Bringing a new life into the world, or choosing to abort a life, is an incredibly difficult decision. That discussion would be hard in a "normal" relationship, let alone when one person has a mental illness.

All this to say, be gentle with yourself, and be gentle with your wife. And really focus on your core values. Give yourself a moment to consider what you consider essential in communication within a relationship. For me, it's things like respect, honesty, civility, caring, openess. What does that look like for you? Consider even placing those in order of importance.

The next step you might consider is to start looking at your communications with your wife and see when and where you are getting those needs met and where you are not. Allow yourself to feel the emotion that goes along with that. For me, there were/are a lot of negative emotions that I had to accept to begin grieving. The goal here, is to gain some clarity on what you hold important in your relationships, whether it is with your wife, friends, family or whomever.

Lastly, it's about choosing to live our values. So, the more familiar you become with your values, the more you step out of the FOG and can begin to maintain some level of awareness when your communications with your wife start to contradict your values. At that point, make as best an attempt at validation and SET that you can to bring the conflict (within you both!) down, and if things are still going contrary to your values (or boundary), then act to correct by creating space or separation in whatever way is possible. If you are driving in a car together, sometimes it is only by refusing to engage further, repeating that you don't want to talk any further.

The last part is the part I usually forget, and that's to go and do something good for myself or soothing for myself so that I can come back in a better frame of mind.

Every situation is different, but I am finding that using this approach with my wife has opened my eyes to see that there are actually moments where we can have a conversation without triggering one another. It's not easy, often  or gratifying, but before going through this process, I would not even have been aware that there were any moments where it was possible.

I hope that any of this is helpful and please let us know how it goes if you apply some of this. Definitely don't keep trying SET when you are being abused verbally (and definitely not when physical violence is implied or acted on). Right now, my sense is, you just need to take some time for yourself to sort out what you value, what you are feeling when all the anger and blame and demand is going on. That makes it easier to know that you have a choice in how you want to respond. 
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2014, 12:32:28 AM »

Within the past month, the abuse she inflicted on me had escalated to physical violence, destruction of automobiles, and saying she wanted a divorce.  I have apologized and admitted it was not the right decision, but I am completely blamed.  Same thing as to why she wants me to demand more money from my job when we are being audited and under litigation... o well

The more you really understand the boundaries between you and her, the better you will cope with the situation.

For example: You apologized for making the wrong decision. (Personally, I think that letting her make her choice and supporting her was the right decision.)

When she is abusing you over that decision... .here is what I'd see as your part... .

... .you know that she is out of line (with the abuse).

... .you know that she is blaming you.

... .you know that you have no control over how long she blames you.

... .you can try to explain why she is wrong... .and she doesn't have to understand/believe you. (and likely won't!)

... .you can leave the situation to protect yourself.

... .your leaving won't convince her that you are right and she is wrong... .just that she cannot use you as a target for abuse right now.

In your other example... .You know that asking for more money right now will not get you the raise, but will get your boss unhappy with you for asking at such a bad time. You don't have to make her agree with this. All you can convince her is that you won't be asking for a raise right now, and you won't debate it with her anymore either.
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hurthusband
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2014, 08:44:10 AM »

I think alot of the problem is within me.  I mean, obviously, the problem is with her, but how I deal with her unreasonablness and abuse.

I think I am putting how she feels as being more valid over how I feel.  I am VERY fearful of blaming her illness for how she reacts when it might be me being selfish.  I also seem to not be able to accept that sometimes what she is doing is completely unreasonable and there is no way to reason with it so I just have to basically ignore it.

I think the major problem I have which I have discovered is the worst thing you can do is allowing your boundaries to be pushed to the point that they do not even realize they are pushing boundaries.  The harrassing calls to work, the abuse, etc.  Things that are just simplely insane behavior that nobody would rationally do nor that she would do with anyone else, she feels is okay to do to me cause I have allowed it.  So now even when I try and get away, I will be stalked and harrassed.  If I had set boundaries earlier, perhaps I could step away, she would calm down because she would feel it is unacceptable to harrass me and stalk me which in turn does not allow her to have peace and deal with things to calm down.

Frustating thing is having to be a spouse AND a parent to your spouse.  They hate it, you hate it, but its just there. 
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takingandsending
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2014, 10:56:03 AM »

hh - have you ever worked through any of the Stop Walking On Eggshells workbook? It has helped me (and the Lessons here as well) to start looking at what I value, what's important to me. You can't make your wife better, but you can work on understanding what needs you have been suppressing or denying in the hopes of keeping the peace. Some of those needs are no big deal, but some are probably vital to your sense of who you are as a person. Focus on sorting that out. Start with one need and just pay attention to yourself when she begins to go off. That one vital need, are you suppressing or denying it? At that point, you have a choice whether  or not you want to be responsible to yourself, that is what you hold important to how you show up in life. That's what gives me the strength to start applying boundaries. As far as the pwBPD in your life, they also need you to have boundaries. The dysregulation is just as scary to them as it is to you (maybe more), and I am finding that applying boundaries consistently, while not pleasant, is at least generally helping both of us to understand what we can and can't do to each other.

I also seem to not be able to accept that sometimes what she is doing is completely unreasonable and there is no way to reason with it so I just have to basically ignore it.

Acceptance is not ignoring bad behavior. It's acknowledging that we have no control over another person's behavior, and that they have no control over ours. Acceptance is dealing with what is, not trying to rationalize it. Part of acceptance for me means that I have to develop boundaries, as this situation is not going to improve if I continue to react to it.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2014, 11:50:12 PM »

I think alot of the problem is within me.  I mean, obviously, the problem is with her, but how I deal with her unreasonablness and abuse.

Bingo!

If you let her subject you to abuse, that is a problem you can fix.

(Her choice to behave abusively still is her issue though. Wishing she will change it has very little benefit to you though!)

Excerpt
If... .perhaps I could step away, she would calm down because she would feel it is unacceptable to harrass me and stalk me which in turn does not allow her to have peace and deal with things to calm down.

This sort of thing is why we often suggest starting with a boundary (or several) to protect yourself from abuse.

It is probably impossible right now to convince her that it is unacceptable to harass and stalk you.

It is *VERY* possible, even easy to convince her that she cannot do this. Just block her phone number, and it is DONE.

Given how much she bugs you at work I'd recommend telling her (not asking or discussing or negotiating with her!) that she is not to contact you at work. Not at all would be easiest. Perhaps you want to allow her a fixed number of contacts per day. (One is a good number!). Perhaps you wish to allow emergencies. (Messy to define those)

If you do allow some contact, tell her (again, not ask, discuss, or negotiate!) that if you find it to be interfering with your work, you will end all conversations with her until you return home that day. (And then block her number at that time for the rest of the day!)  If she starts emailing you, create a rule in your email to immediately delete everything from her without even reading it, and let it run 'till you return home as well.

This is something you have the power to do--she won't like it. In fact, she will probably blow a gasket. The normal result of enforcing a new boundary is an extinction burst where she will ramp things up hoping to get you back to the way you used to be. If you hold firm, she will figure it out.

Just imagine what it will be like when you start enforcing that boundary. She won't harass you at work. (Either because she is using good judgement or because her phone is blocked.) You will be able to deal with your job w/o her interruptions. You get 40 (or more) abuse-free hours a week!

Does it sound possible to you?
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hurthusband
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« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 08:45:34 AM »

makes sense.  i worry she will start call on work lines starting trouble for me which is even worse than on my own phone...

I need to get that book Stop Walking on Eggshells though
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 08:48:40 PM »

i worry she will start call on work lines starting trouble for me which is even worse than on my own phone.

If you cannot block her number from your work line, just dump her straight to voicemail, or answer and say "I cannot talk to you at work today. Goodbye." and hang up.

If there is a receptionist or general phone number, think about what you will say to the person answering that phone... .after the 3rd or 4th call. You may sound a little weird talking to people at work about it in advance... .figure out how you will handle it.
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momtara
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2014, 12:20:10 PM »

This is something we all struggle with.  Don't feel like it's ever too late to set boundaries.  Last year, I was worrying for a month about something my ex kept asking me to do.  I thought of all kinds of alternatives.  Finally I just said a firm no (although I gave a line or two explaining why) and he accepted it with no argument - which shocked me.  But it worked.

So set your boundaries, and do it a bit gradually if that makes you feel better.  Don't take too long though.  She has gone too far too many times, and it hurts her in the end, not just you.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2014, 12:55:19 PM »

Sorry if I am a little late on this... .

a. Is in explosion mode and just blowing things waaay up and becoming basically psychotic, what is best response once validating does not work?  

Nothing you can do to calm her down at this point.  Leave and protect yourself from further abuse.  *IF* she is calm enough, you can try to explain to her that the issue is important and needs to be discussed, but only after a time of calming.  Tell her where you are going and when you will be home.  But, if she is truly acting psychotic and you feel your safety is at risk, I would not worry about telling her anything - just LEAVE.

b. Projecting/transferring their pain on you as your fault... ie... they are miserable from their job and people around them and are then bringing up things you have done or saying you are ruining their lives without specfics or ways to fix things

First rule here - don't JADE because the pwBPD will use that as proof of your guilt.  If she is calm enough, you can try and re-direct her issues back at her.  You can try guessing at her real issues and moving the conversation that way.  But don't defend yourself, don't validate the invalid.  I've been trying to ask her specifics of how I am involved or how I can fix things.  She usually gets stumped.

c. You have made a mistake and now the BPD is holding you hostage on it

First evaluate whether or not you really made a mistake, or if the pwBPD is only claiming you made a mistake.  If you made a mistake, apologize in an appropriate way, and leave the rest up to her.  Don't keep apologizing, that will probably annoy her and do you no good.  It just takes time for the pwBPD to get over it.

d. Says you mean things you do not.  This is hard cause I do not want to invalidate them but when its out and out not true what do you do?

SET.  "I hear what you are saying, (repeat what she is saying top show that you hear) and I can see how that would be upsetting to you.  Then state the truth about what you really mean.  Be clear.  If the situation escalates beyond that, do whatever you can to avoid the circular conversation.

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hurthusband
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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2014, 09:22:55 AM »

What do you say when they feel their therapy is doing nothing but stripping their identity and they feel its helping everyone but themselves?

Also, when they are just extremely depressed, what can you do to show you are caring, but not go to far into just being somebody who is rescuing them and reinforcing a victim role?

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momtara
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2014, 11:26:01 AM »

You could tell the therapist they feel they are being stripped of their identity.  Therapy should allow them to reinforce their positives. Your wife is an artist and has some good qualities (or you wouldn't have married her) but you can't count on her to be calm and supportive all the time, and that's a problem.  This is where my exH doesn't get it - he can be wonderful and sweet.  He doesn't understand why we are not together.  But the other side is so severely cruel and cold.  It's hard to not be able to count on someone.  So maybe her therapist needs to remind her of the good in her and still stress that she is hurting you and destroying a relationship, or whatever.  It's possible he's not aware she has those feelings, and it'd be a good thing for him to know.

As for them being extremely depressed, you've done everything you could and it was still not enough.  Refrain from angry or callous words that you will regret later, and perhaps you can say "I'm sorry you are hurting so much".  validate the feelings but don't let it hurt you to the point where you miss work etc

Wouldn't you like a life in which you don't have to ask how to respond to everything she does?  Just keep setting those boundaries.  Talk to the therapist if you must.  What's the downside?  She may get angry, but not as angry as if you hold this all inside and the situation explodes in a worse way.

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hurthusband
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2014, 07:01:57 PM »

Ok so what do i do here

Started reading Stop Walking On Eggshells.  She happened to see it in the mail so not sure what she thinks about it

Today I asked if there was anything i can do.  She said I am the reason she feels mainly how she does and she will never be able to talk to me about this sort of things... me in particular and leave her alone

Do i keep pushing because what she is scared of is being alone, or do I give her space and do my own thing... will she think i do not care if i do my own thing?

I did some stuff for her job today and i did all the chores today to let her sleep... i am trying and wanting to help
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2014, 09:40:52 PM »

If she doesn't want to talk, don't force her to talk.
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hurthusband
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 10:55:50 PM »

its weird she will come in and stare at me when i do something else so not sure what to do
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momtara
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2014, 11:10:23 PM »

It will never be enough.  She will keep blaming you.  This is a blamers disease.  You both know you aren't to blame.

A few things you can do consistently:

-Don't use any angry words  you may regret later.

-Keep your boundaries.  Don't let this affect work or an activity you were really looking forward to.

-Validate her feelings to a point (if unjustified you can still say "it's rought to be so depressed" something) but you can't spend all day doing it. 

No matter what you've done, things ended up this way, right?  So you have nothing to lose by setting boundaries.  Well, ok, you could lose your marriage and I know you are trying hard to save it.  But what if you could have a better marriage or at least try, in a few ways?

I know you are trying.  But you are not superhuman.  These people put us in nearly impossible situations.
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