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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Eco
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« on: September 28, 2014, 07:29:10 PM »

Hi all, its been a while since I have posted. for those that remember my situation I haven't made it back to court yet because I don't have the funds yet.

my question is this, my 18 month old daughter was enrolled in gymnastics by my ex and she wants me to pay half. issue #1 was my ex already enrolled my daughter without asking me if I would be able to pay half or not before doing it. I agreed to pay half and told her I would like to come watch my daughter at her class. My ex didn't have a problem with that. Issue #2 when I asked for the address to come watch my daughter at her class my ex refused to give the address  stating that it wasn't my weekend.

Right now my visitation on weekends is from 2pm on Saturday to 6pm on sunday. that doesn't change until January 1st when it goes to Friday at 6pm to sun at 6pm. my daughters class is at 10am on Saturdays so I wouldn't be able to attend on my weekends until January. It states in the court order that I can attend things like this so I feel that I should be able to attend if its my weekend or not. I have everything documented and it will be added to the already big pile of things to bring to court.

So here's my question, this week I am supposed to give my ex half for gymnastics and im thinking of not paying half if she still refuses to let me attend. Is this a wise move for me? I feel conflicted about this, I don't want to interfere with my daughters class but I feel like I have to put my foot down to my ex other wise she will try and keep me away on other activities.

I tried talking to my ex about how our daughter would want both her parents at events or classes, of course we all know how well that goes with these people.

thanks for the help
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momtara
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« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2014, 09:24:09 PM »

hmmm.  my first thought is that if you don't pay, it gives her a little ammo to use against you.  even if you have a good reason, if you already promised to pay you may have to pay.  maybe you can find out the address anyhow.

but i could be wrong - maybe paying is giving in or engaging?  not sure... .
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2014, 09:34:56 PM »

Once you get your longer weekends, would you allow your ex to attend on your weekends?  I believe so, well, as long as she behaves.

Then you could state, "I will pay for up to half the cost of this class if I have the option to attend all classes as the order states.  I do not see a need to subsidize classes that you have not made available to me.  Once my weekends with our daughter are lengthened in a few months I will follow the order and allow you to attend any that are on my time.  It is reasonable to have the same reciprocity from you."

Sadly, you probably can't reason with her, so don't waste time trying to do more than state your case.  She may try to start an argument but don't take the bait.  Once you've stated your position, leave it at that.  Be prepared and expect her to try to 'guilt' you as being a bad father or 'obligate' you to terms she has since changed to shut you out.

BPD FOG. = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.

If the order doesn't require you to pay for extras such as this class, then your paying a portion of the costs likely is optional.  Is anything in writing?  Even if it is, you can take the position that she's changed the reasonableness by obstructing your access to these extracurricular activities that the order specifically allows you to have access to.

Just a thought... .  At 18 months old I don't know how important it is for a toddler to have gymnastics classes.  Is there a purpose for this - real need or benefit - or is this the ex showing entitlement and control?
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Eco
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« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2014, 10:29:07 PM »

Excerpt
Once you get your longer weekends, would you allow your ex to attend on your weekends?  I believe so, well, as long as she behaves.

absolutely, I stated that as well to her and her answer was " well you took me to court to get time with her away from me so you cant have it both ways when it suits you" she conveniently forgets that I had to get time with my daughter away from my ex because of her abuse and keeping me away. all that aside we are supposed to think of our daughter first then our own feelings.

Excerpt
Then you could state, "I will pay for up to half the cost of this class if I have the option to attend all classes as the order states.  I do not see a need to subsidize classes that you have not made available to me.  Once my weekends with our daughter are lengthened in a few months I will follow the order and allow you to attend any that are on my time.  It is reasonable to have the same reciprocity from you."

my thoughts as well

Excerpt
Sadly, you probably can't reason with her, so don't waste time trying to do more than state your case.  She may try to start an argument but don't take the bait.  Once you've stated your position, leave it at that.  Be prepared and expect her to try to 'guilt' you as being a bad father or 'obligate' you to terms she has since changed to shut you out.

very true and that's probably why I feel conflicted about it because I can already hear the "you're a bad father" being yelled at me. I will be recording the episode for sure

Excerpt
If the order doesn't require you to pay for extras such as this class, then your paying a portion of the costs likely is optional.  Is anything in writing?  Even if it is, you can take the position that she's changed the reasonableness by obstructing your access to these extracurricular activities that the order specifically allows you to have access to

no the order doesn't require me to pay for these types of things.

Excerpt
Just a thought... .  At 18 months old I don't know how important it is for a toddler to have gymnastics classes.  Is there a purpose for this - real need or benefit - or is this the ex showing entitlement and control?

my thoughts as well, she has 2 other kids (girls) that are 9 and 4 that are in the class as well. Entitlement and control are her specialties unfortunately

thanks again guys and gals for your input
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Matt
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 10:42:56 AM »

So you have no way to know if the gymnastics classes are real... .?

Maybe you could write - I assume you are communicating by e-mail, right? - something like,

"Please send me a copy of the bill from the gymnastics studio, or some other documentation, and I will pay them directly."

When you know the name of the gymnastics place, you can find out if your daughter is enrolled, and where and when her lessons are, and you can go to see her.  If you decide that it's a good thing for her, you can pay half the money directly to the studio.

If your ex won't provide any information about the studio, I wouldn't pay anything.  If you pay your ex, she might just be pocketing the money and not really taking your daughter to that place at all.

You could also write her a note, "I have the right to attend Daughter's activities, including gymnastics.  Please inform me regarding the time and place where she takes gymnastics class, so we can avoid any need for legal action."  If you have a lawyer, you could ask her to write a similar e-mail to your ex - tell her, "No more than 15 minutes of billable time please!".  If this is your ex's only bad behavior, it might not be enough to go back to court, but if she has a pattern of doing stuff like this, you might be able to get a judge to order her to quit it, and also to award you legal costs.
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Eco
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 08:11:05 PM »

thanks for the advice matt, that's a good point of view

Excerpt
So you have no way to know if the gymnastics classes are real... .?

Maybe you could write - I assume you are communicating by e-mail, right? - something like,

"Please send me a copy of the bill from the gymnastics studio, or some other documentation, and I will pay them directly."

When you know the name of the gymnastics place, you can find out if your daughter is enrolled, and where and when her lessons are, and you can go to see her.  If you decide that it's a good thing for her, you can pay half the money directly to the studio.

If your ex won't provide any information about the studio, I wouldn't pay anything.  If you pay your ex, she might just be pocketing the money and not really taking your daughter to that place at all.

that's a good idea, I will let you guys know how it goes tomorrow
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 09:37:52 PM »

My DH's uBPDew badgered him for weeks to pay half of SS14's cello. He continued to request a copy of the bill. She finally sent him a screen shot of a cello for sale on Amazon. Um, yeah, no. No bill, no money.
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 09:59:53 PM »

Offer to pay for classes directly to the providers.  Never give extra money directly to a BPD, it rarely benefits the kids.
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Eco
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« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2014, 09:44:42 PM »

Hey guys, my ex gave me the address today with no problems.  I guess she thought about what I said and changed her mind, she always rides the line with these things causing enough trouble to make life stressful for no reason but not bad enough to get in trouble legally.

thanks for all the support and advice
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ForeverDad
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You can't reason with the Voice of Unreason...


« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 05:57:06 AM »

Boundaries - endlessly probed and tested for flexibility, reasonableness or whatever that is perceived as weakness.
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momtara
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« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 08:33:11 AM »

amazing how that works.
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« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 03:52:24 PM »

Good for you!
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Eco
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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2014, 11:09:00 PM »

So I knew it was to good to be true

I have the address to my daughters gymnastics class but my ex informed me that if I show up she will take my daughter and her other kids out of the class and leave because she wont be in the same room with me. she also said that she will not put my daughter in the class or ask me for half until I get full weekends and I take her on my weekend which is in January. this woman is truly sick, I plan on showing up and documenting her behavior. Is that a good idea?
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2014, 11:16:53 PM »

How did she inform you of all this?
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Eco
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« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2014, 12:46:38 AM »

Excerpt
How did she inform you of all this?

when I dropped my daughter off to her on Tuesday she told me in person. I have it documented
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2014, 06:19:42 AM »

Be aware that the ones who teach the classes will likely not want to get involved with messy disputes.  I'm not at all saying don't go, just pointing out the perspective of the service providers.

I recall one daycare I used - ex had used this daycare herself before I used it - the director one day gave me Notice of Withdrawal of Services ending that very week.  They never said why since they did not want to get called into family court but I was directed to their clause that parents should not display conflict there.  I recalled that the exchange before my ex had demanded to pick our son up early at a time convenient to her, as I recall it was about 4 pm, and I refused stating (1) she never allowed me to pick up early (2) I've all along held to the 6 pm exchanges and (3) due to prior conflict the daycare had said to strictly follow the schedule.  Clearly she had a dispute with the daycare and they trumped her by Withdrawing their Services.

Another daycare I used called the police on my ex and actually filed a harrassment/stalking case on her - that was one spunky director! - but later withdrew the petition when they learned that was not the steps they were to take.
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« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2014, 10:01:59 AM »

How is it documented?

If it's an audio recording, do you know if that is legal in your state, and if you can use it in court?

If you don't have good enough evidence, you could engage her by e-mail, and see if she will say the same thing, so you'll have it in writing.

Then talk to an attorney about getting sole custody, by showing that Mom is off her rocker and will not cooperate for the best interests of the child.
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Eco
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« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2014, 11:00:02 PM »

Excerpt
How is it documented?

she was raging and texted me after I dropped my daughter off.

Excerpt
do you know if that is legal in your state, and if you can use it in court?

it is and I have several recordings of different episodes

Excerpt
Then talk to an attorney about getting sole custody, by showing that Mom is off her rocker and will not cooperate for the best interests of the child.

that's my plan, hopefully a judge sees it the same way.

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Eco
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« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2014, 11:03:18 PM »

Excerpt
Be aware that the ones who teach the classes will likely not want to get involved with messy disputes.  I'm not at all saying don't go, just pointing out the perspective of the service providers.

I recall one daycare I used - ex had used this daycare herself before I used it - the director one day gave me Notice of Withdrawal of Services ending that very week.  They never said why since they did not want to get called into family court but I was directed to their clause that parents should not display conflict there.  I recalled that the exchange before my ex had demanded to pick our son up early at a time convenient to her, as I recall it was about 4 pm, and I refused stating (1) she never allowed me to pick up early (2) I've all along held to the 6 pm exchanges and (3) due to prior conflict the daycare had said to strictly follow the schedule.  Clearly she had a dispute with the daycare and they trumped her by Withdrawing their Services.

Another daycare I used called the police on my ex and actually filed a harrassment/stalking case on her - that was one spunky director! - but later withdrew the petition when they learned that was not the steps they were to take

sounds very familiar, I will keep that in mind thanks
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2014, 09:22:38 AM »

I don't thinks it's going to dramatically effect the child if services are withdrawn. But proving she said to you that you should pay for half, fought you on giving you any information on it, gave you the information and then threatened to pull her if you showed up, and then threw a fit or pulled her when you did show up is going to play very much in your favor in court. It would show she is out of control.

A similar thing happened in our case and when it was brought up to the GAL it made her sit up and take notice that Mother was absolutely not willing to work with Father at all. We actually had it recorded that she called DH after he introduced himself to their son's coach and screamed at him that she didn't take him to any games after that because she didn't want to be around those people because he ruined that for her.
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Eco
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« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2014, 05:13:51 PM »

Excerpt
A similar thing happened in our case and when it was brought up to the GAL it made her sit up and take notice that Mother was absolutely not willing to work with Father at all. We actually had it recorded that she called DH after he introduced himself to their son's coach and screamed at him that she didn't take him to any games after that because she didn't want to be around those people because he ruined that for her.

Wow that sounds exactly like my ex, according to her I ruin things all the time just by my presence
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