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Author Topic: Anyone successfully called your pwBPD's bluff?  (Read 1397 times)
jcarter4856
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« on: September 29, 2014, 02:36:29 PM »

I know the books say not to do this but I'm curious to hear members' experiences if they've tried. The one time I did it was on the very first "cycle" with uBPDw, more than 15 years ago just after we began dating. It was a long distance relationship and we mostly communicated via voice mail due to a big time zone difference. I woke up, checked my voice mail and found two new messages. The first was all loving : "you're so amazing, I can't wait to see you again" etc etc. The second was what I know recognize as a BPD rage, ending with "don't you ever call me again, never contact me, I don't want to heard from you again".

Well, since we had only been dating a few weeks, and I was entirely unfamiliar with BPD (it would be more than 10 years in the future when I hit the right Google search), I took her at her literal word. Thought to myself well that's a little odd, but I guess she changed her mind. After a day or two feeling sad, I got back to my regular life.

And then, a few days later, I received another voice mail. This one all meek and pleading saying "I haven't heard from you, please call me I understand you don't want to date me any more but I'd like to hear that you are ok".

I thought "What the heck?" then called her. Rest is history.

But I always wonder what would happen if I repeated this tactic deliberately (I mean, back then I had no clue what was going on and didn't realize I wasn't supposed to disconnect when she did), now: when she rages and demands a divorce, just leave or say "ok fine you win let's go see lawyers".

We can dream, I suppose.

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Indyan
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« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2014, 03:08:12 PM »

Nope.

My BPDbf kept mentioning "shared custody" everytime he wasn't well (even BEFORE baby was born!). When our baby was 6 months old (3 months ago), I had enough and said "Ok fine. I've asked a lawyer, he says SC doesn't apply to infants. You'll have to wait until baby's at least 5." (I hadn't see any) He said nothing, so I thought we were done with it.

But no, it was the beginning of a long, long fall.

He saw a lawyer behind my back with the support of his family, went totally paranoid saying I was planning to run away with the kids and so on.

If you "agree" with them, they won't stop. You'll just prove them right. They have no limit.

It's better to ignore the threats, and in fact that's what my last thread (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=233855.0 ) was about.

Sweetheart gives a good example of this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=233948.10
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maxsterling
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« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2014, 03:09:50 PM »

I heard my brother did with his BPD wife when she threatened suicide.  She wound up swallowing a bottle of ibuprophen and was rushed to the hospital.  I've thought about calling her bluff.  "Oh, I thought you hated me and never wanted to see me again?"

Seems like I did do something like that once, it didn't click with her and made the rage worse.
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« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2014, 03:36:21 PM »

 

This is because their actions and thoughts are "in the moment".

Calling a bluff only works if they remember they are bluffing... .

If they have dreamed up a new reality and forgot the bluff... .the bluff never existed...


NEVER EXISTED... .

Proving that it did exist is invalidating... .

What a catch-22.  

This is one of the reasons "calling the bluff" is not a tactic that is taught in the lessons... .because it is generally not a good idea.

Now... .if you can sort out a proper boundary... .that forces them to call their own bluff... .that could be progress.

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jcarter4856
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« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2014, 03:50:35 PM »

Calling a bluff only works if they remember they are bluffing... .

If they have dreamed up a new reality and forgot the bluff... .the bluff never existed...


NEVER EXISTED... .

I've wondered if there is a part of the disorder that is driven somehow by a broken brain memory mechanism -- e.g. there are two distinct sets of memories related to me and her brain either reads out the good set or the bad set depending on... .something (neurotransmitter levels, hormones, some primary driver memory, whatever). If how you view someone else depends on the status assigned to that person by your brain, and the status is being affected by selective memory recovery, so me it would explain much of the behavior. Presumably deep down in the lizard brain there is wiring that is designed to assign every target in the environment a status : food or danger. Perhaps that wiring is messed up in some way in the BPD (or perhaps it exists in all people but typically get overridden by higher order mammalian brain areas and that override mechanism doesn't always work in the BPD brain).

Now... .if you can sort out a proper boundary... .that forces them to call their own bluff... .that could be progress.

I'm at the early stages of figuring out the boundary thing (years of trying to accommodate that spiraled down in a sea of double-binds).  What would be a good boundary to address fake divorce threats?
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maxsterling
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« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2014, 04:06:47 PM »

I've also wondered what a careful and systematic "fight fire with fire" approach would do - if we acted in the same way as them.  That means, actually react to all their little comments rather than blow them off, react with jealousy, demand to know where they are all the time, etc. 

I'm sure it would be a disaster, as I am sure they would see right through someone who acted that way towards them.

The one thing I've noticed about my fiancé, is she seems to be most irritated with people who act exactly like her Smiling (click to insert in post)  Sometimes I think she is aware of this... .
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« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2014, 04:15:06 PM »



The broken memory thing is mainly more about feelings are more important than facts.

Therefore... .if you feel a certain way... .you will remember things differently... or this will color their memory some.

Each case is a bit different... .but as a general principle... .remember... .feelings will usually overcome facts in a pwBPD.

Most nons let facts drive their feelings... .

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maxsterling
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« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2014, 04:20:04 PM »

feelings will usually overcome facts in a pwBPD.

Most nons let facts drive their feelings... .

A really good rule of thumb.  I remember once my fiancé asked me if I still loved her (her daily asking for validation).  I said yes, and somehow the "yes" was invalidating for her - she then replied that she didn't "feel" like I still loved her.  All the things I do for her, all the times I tell her I love her, mean nothing.  If she doesn't  "feel" it, it isn't true.  On the flip side, I often don't feel like she loves me, but that is because her actions and words don't show any evidence of love.  Me - observations drive feelings.  Her - feelings taint observations.
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jcarter4856
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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2014, 04:22:31 PM »

I've also wondered what a careful and systematic "fight fire with fire" approach would do - if we acted in the same way as them.  That means, actually react to all their little comments rather than blow them off... .

I dunno, once the lightbulb has lit up in your brain and the nature of the disorder revealed, I found it hard to take the constant comments seriously any more.

I don't think I could call out the constant critical comments without breaking down laughing after a while.
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jcarter4856
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2014, 04:25:01 PM »

A really good rule of thumb.  I remember once my fiancé asked me if I still loved her (her daily asking for validation).  I said yes, and somehow the "yes" was invalidating for her - she then replied that she didn't "feel" like I still loved her. 

I notice this "looking for the negative". e.g. if I notice uBPDw is looking nice and say "you're looking good today", she'll get mad because this implies she looks horrid other days. I have to develop a filter on everything I say to first check it against all the potential negative aspects that could be inferred.

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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2014, 04:29:08 PM »

Well, I likely did what all the books tell you not to do. I called his bluff. He was getting so wildly out of control, and I was just worn way down. To the point of near breakdown, and feeling suicidal myself. Just worn down, and feeling hopeless, due to his rages, blame, projecting, and cruelty. I knew I had to get away from him, at least for a while.

Here is how it was calling his bluff. He'd always, always been using divorce threats, or saying we needed a "break". He knew that scared me, and hurt me.  He knew I didn't believe in "breaks" because I'd told him that repeatedly when we first started dating. He and his ex spent 24 years taking "breaks". Well, I got to such a state, that I told him he needed to leave, that he could have that "break" he was always threatening, and that I needed to get healthier, and think things over.

I think this only worked because he knew I was serious. He knew that if I was giving him this  "break", it likely meant "break up". Our separation did seem to bring out his fear of abandonment, but at that point, I was more worried about ME, than I was about him. I started looking out for me.

I did end up taking him back, with conditions, and boundaries back in place. He did go see a psychiatrist, got diagnosed and put on medication. I also went back to therapy, and I'm doing a lot better. He is still struggling, and he still has all the symptoms of BPD.

Personally, I think when they know something can't be used to scare or intimidate you, they have to find a new tactic, which is why I think my uBPDh has stopped with the divorce threats. I didn't set out to deliberately call his bluff, but it sure did work in my case, at least in regards to false divorce threats.
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Indyan
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2014, 05:20:22 PM »

That's happened to us too -kind of.

He "left me" in July (needless to say it was due to his moodshift) and told his parents, sisters... .and eventually me that our r/s was over. Well, actually, one of his sisters told me to "let go and get over it" when I tried to phone him, as he was staying at his parents'. I spent the whole summer without him, visiting my family and friends with the kids. I felt resentful, as my parents hadn't met him yet and they were seeing our 6 mth old baby for the 1st time... .without his dad.

BPD bf did try to come back to me, but it didn't last. Whenever I tried to discuss the situation he would sound evasive such as "not sure I can get involved with you again."

He then went back home, back to work, while I stayed longer for the holidays.

Being alone and working must have cleared his mind, as when I went back home he was back to "normal".

But I wasn't. I had gotten used to living without him, and had to cope with extreme sadness for weeks, when of course he didn't say or do anything to reassure me in anything. It was as if he had forced me into thinking our relationship was worthless, and I had no choice but to agree.

So when I went back home I told him he had to act upon his decision. That "officially" now we were separated. He denied, threatened about all sorts of things. But on my side, trust was gone. He played with fire and got burnt. He learnt that actions bear consequences.

I think he wants us back now as he's just been to see the MC, alone. We're seeing him together soon.

But now if there's a "US" somehow, it will have to be based on values I can't do without: respect (I've really started liking Aretha's song Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)), empathy, honesty.

So yes, I guess in a way I've called his bluff. He kept saying "we're done" for months, and I chose to "believe" him.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2014, 05:34:12 PM »

I dunno, once the lightbulb has lit up in your brain and the nature of the disorder revealed, I found it hard to take the constant comments seriously any more.

I don't think I could call out the constant critical comments without breaking down laughing after a while.

No kidding.  Some of the things are just so completely absurd, it's hard not to laugh.  Then she gets mad for not taking her comments seriously.  The dysregulation because I don't own black dress shoes was a tough one.  I remember telling a co worker the following day about that, and she replied, "what?  My husband doesn't own any dress shoes at all, and she is upset about THAT?"
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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2014, 05:40:33 PM »

What we call a bluff is not the same as what a pwBPD call a bluff so you have to be careful.

A bluff is a threat you make that you have no intention or ability to follow through with.

When pwBPD make similar statements quite often they mean what they say and every intention to follow through with it (in that moment). The reason it is not often followed through with is because of their basic lack of consistency. The urge/impulse does not stay at that hightened level long enough to carry it through.

Even though you may get used to them not following through, do not rely on it. They can escalate to do worse.

Rather than thinking about calling their bluff think more along the lines of not adding to to the escalation and hence letting it run out of steam.

There are many partners of pwBPD who have dismissively "called their bluff" only to have the pwBPD escalate and turn the threat, or worse, into a reality.

Think of it more of not buying into the escalation.

eg If someone says they are going to do something unhealthy, you disengage from it (not feeding it), rather than saying "go on then if you dare" (calling their bluff). pwBPD are highly represented in suicide statistics and this is one of the very reasons, people think they are bluffing. They can be triggered to escalation without even thinking of the consequences.
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Indyan
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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2014, 06:03:42 PM »

No kidding.  Some of the things are just so completely absurd, it's hard not to laugh.

My BPD doesn't get upset when I laugh, rather the opposite as if he had made a good joke, but he doesn't understand why.

For example, he denies (apart from a couple of exceptions in the past, long forgotten) having BPD.

He has 8 out of 9 symptoms but whatever... .

And a few weeks ago we spoke again about therapy and he said he was willing to go, but that he was NOT BPD. The entire evening he stuck to "I'm not BPD", even when I tried to tell him that it didn't mean "crazy" or that it was the "label" for what he had been describing to me the whole evening... .

Anyway, then I tried to tell him that we couldn't stay in that situation "half in half out of the r/s", that we needed commitment on both sides to trust each other better etc.

He answered "well, I don't know if I want right now to commit to our r/s. But maybe I will feel positive about it in a week or two (and feeling stupid about what he'd just said)... .especially if I'm borderline."

Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

Following this (what a fun night it was   ) I got very upset about his "non commitment" (as I was feeling I was being extra nice by giving him a very last chance) and I said "Ok, no commitment, hence I'm free to meet someone else. I can chat with guys online for example." (not my style).

He got upset and said "If it's my permission you're asking for, I AM NOT GIVING IT!"

I laughed so much at this, and his suprised look made me laugh even more.
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gomez_addams
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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2014, 07:22:01 PM »

Excerpt
All the things I do for her, all the times I tell her I love her, mean nothing.  If she doesn't  "feel" it, it isn't true.  On the flip side, I often don't feel like she loves me, but that is because her actions and words don't show any evidence of love.  Me - observations drive feelings.  Her - feelings taint observations.

My wife tells me she does love me. Or like me.

And she tells me that I don't love her, because she doesn't feel loved.
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gomez_addams
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« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2014, 07:26:18 PM »

Excerpt
All the things I do for her, all the times I tell her I love her, mean nothing.  If she doesn't  "feel" it, it isn't true.  On the flip side, I often don't feel like she loves me, but that is because her actions and words don't show any evidence of love.  Me - observations drive feelings.  Her - feelings taint observations.

My wife tells me she does love me. Or like me.

And she tells me that I don't love her, because she doesn't feel loved.

Should read does *not* love me.

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2014, 07:55:22 PM »

feelings will usually overcome facts in a pwBPD.

Most nons let facts drive their feelings... .

A really good rule of thumb.  I remember once my fiancé asked me if I still loved her (her daily asking for validation).  I said yes, and somehow the "yes" was invalidating for her - she then replied that she didn't "feel" like I still loved her.  All the things I do for her, all the times I tell her I love her, mean nothing.  If she doesn't  "feel" it, it isn't true.  On the flip side, I often don't feel like she loves me, but that is because her actions and words don't show any evidence of love.  Me - observations drive feelings.  Her - feelings taint observations.

Wow, this speaks volumes. I have been trying to sort out why I feel like my husband doesn't love me. It is because I am basing things on facts. And I am looking at a volume of facts rather than just "how I feel right now". I have never understood how I could do all of the things that I do for my husband yet he still questions whether or not I love him. If I don't say "I love you" all of the time, then he gets weird.

I have gotten so fed up at times that I have flat out told him, "You are right. I do hate you."
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« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »

Oh, calling my dBPDh's bluff caused mayhem!  I really do better at validating the emotion and ignoring the threat or refusing to talk, when he is threatening.
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LilHurt420
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« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2014, 03:34:12 PM »

Ahh a history that sounds all too the same as mine.  I met my husband 10 years ago in college.  I can't tell you the amount of times he said he didn't want to be with me anymore, only to change his mind right after I left his house and said "goodbye" for the last time asking me to come sleep over.

And here 10 years later I have the answer for what seemed like a young kid that didn't know what they wanted... .he is now a grown man who still doesn't seem to know what he wants from moment to moment.

I have called my husbands bluff.  About a month ago he came to the conclusion that we should divorce because we can't have civil conversations about things most of the time (we all know how hard it is to talk to a BPD about reality when they're stuck in a fantasy).  So he raged about me signing the divorce papers he printed right then and there.  I signed.  He was expecting a fight, but since he didn't get it he had to create one.  So instead of just being happy I signed them and gave him what he asked for... .he then went on and on for hours about if I was going to change my last name back and how I should and even give the child I'm pregnant with now my maiden name (though our son has his last name and we weren't even married yet when we had him... .so I dunno how that made sense to him Laugh out loud (click to insert in post))

Anyways... .point is... .sometimes calling their bluff makes them even madder or it will just redirect them to something else.  I've realized now if I call his bluff indirectly he will come down from his dysregulations a little quicker.  I don't call him out directly, but if he can tell by my calm listening and little care for what he's saying that I see through it, he will snap out of it quicker.
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LilHurt420
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« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2014, 03:37:07 PM »

feelings will usually overcome facts in a pwBPD.

Most nons let facts drive their feelings... .

A really good rule of thumb.  I remember once my fiancé asked me if I still loved her (her daily asking for validation).  I said yes, and somehow the "yes" was invalidating for her - she then replied that she didn't "feel" like I still loved her.  All the things I do for her, all the times I tell her I love her, mean nothing.  If she doesn't  "feel" it, it isn't true.  On the flip side, I often don't feel like she loves me, but that is because her actions and words don't show any evidence of love.  Me - observations drive feelings.  Her - feelings taint observations.

Wow, this speaks volumes. I have been trying to sort out why I feel like my husband doesn't love me. It is because I am basing things on facts. And I am looking at a volume of facts rather than just "how I feel right now". I have never understood how I could do all of the things that I do for my husband yet he still questions whether or not I love him. If I don't say "I love you" all of the time, then he gets weird.

I have gotten so fed up at times that I have flat out told him, "You are right. I do hate you."

This is exactly what I struggle with also. It's so hard as a non when what we think and feel is based on facts and trying to survive with a BPD who thinks and feels based on how they are feeling in their current situation.
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Indyan
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« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2014, 03:41:09 PM »

So instead of just being happy I signed them and gave him what he asked for... .he then went on and on for hours about if I was going to change my last name back and how I should and even give the child I'm pregnant with now my maiden name (though our son has his last name and we weren't even married yet when we had him... .so I dunno how that made sense to him Laugh out loud (click to insert in post))

And you're pregnant... .how can they make us go through all this even when we're PREGNANT?

I found out about PBD when I was 6 mths pregnant. He had already "left" me 3 times... .a nightmare.

Yes, he obviously wanted you to feel desperate about losing him... .I wonder if in the end all they get is that WE FEEL RELIEVED we lose them.

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LilHurt420
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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 10:56:51 AM »

So instead of just being happy I signed them and gave him what he asked for... .he then went on and on for hours about if I was going to change my last name back and how I should and even give the child I'm pregnant with now my maiden name (though our son has his last name and we weren't even married yet when we had him... .so I dunno how that made sense to him Laugh out loud (click to insert in post))

And you're pregnant... .how can they make us go through all this even when we're PREGNANT?

I found out about PBD when I was 6 mths pregnant. He had already "left" me 3 times... .a nightmare.

Yes, he obviously wanted you to feel desperate about losing him... .I wonder if in the end all they get is that WE FEEL RELIEVED we lose them.

I found out about BPD at the very beginning of this pregnancy... .we also have a 5yo.  I can't even tell you the amount of times he went back and forth with asking me to abort this pregnancy in the beginning (even though we had tried for a year to conceive and I'd had 2 miscarriages).  It's frustrating.  Finding out about BPD has made things some what better for me only because it's made it a little more predictable and on here I've learned tools to navigate the behavior and not let myself get sucked in like before (it's still exhausting though).

I think my husband has finally realized that I do feel relieved when he's not around... .and I think that scares him more.  I think he has realized that the more he puts me through all this, the more distant I become and more I don't even care what he does.  He can see it in my eyes.  He hasn't told me this, but I can tell because just the other day we got in a small argument after I listened to him go on and on for hours about a hypothetical made up situation.  When he was done he was upset that I wouldn't dialogue with him and was only listening.  I explained how it's hard for me to dialogue about non-reality and then he started to rage.  Instead of engaging I ignored him and went to sleep.  He acted like he was going to sleep on the couch (his normal go to in a rage/dysregulation) but came back in our bed 5 mins later and appologized saying he knows he's hard to deal with but doesn't want to fight with me.  That's how I know he's starting to get it... .normally this all would have went on for days.
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