jealousy/double standard

[maxsterling]

Double standards and jealousy seem to be the rule in these relationships.  I don't want to play that game.  What is the best way to set a boundary here so as to keep yourself from getting wrapped up in this?  

An example that is cropping up recently:  We are taking a trip next week to the city where she once lived for awhile.  And she wants to visit with an ex boyfriend whom she still considers a friend.  And she wants me to go along during this visit.  I have no jealousy issues here, but I do have issues with the double standard - I feel she is asking me to do something that she would have serious issues with herself if the situations were reversed.  A few months back, we were going to take a tour of a place in a town near here, and an ex girlfriend of mine randomly was there.  My fiancé got livid, dysregulated, jealous, wanted to leave immediately.  Now she refuses to even visit the town where this ex lives.  So clearly when the situation was reversed, she could not handle it.

While I know I can take the high road and not let this bother me, my feeling is that if I go with her to visit this ex, I will be enabling the double standard.   During therapy this week somehow this topic came up.  I mentioned exactly what I said above, that I have no issues with her being friends with an ex, but I do have issues if this is a double standard.  My fiancé then tried to justify this - that it's not the same situation because I don't have any exes that fall into the same category as this guy - in other words, this is not a double standard because her relationship with him was different.  I just don't think she understood where I was coming from that it's not the details or type of relationship that matters, it's the situation and the reaction - is she wanting me to do something that she herself would not be comfortable with.  And CLEARLY she would not be okay if the situation were reversed.  

So what do I do here?  I really don't want to play this double standard game.  But I don't know how to set a boundary.  I don't want to tell her who she can or can't be friends with, because I don't care and that's not the point.  I'm thinking that if she asks me to visit this ex with her, I will ask her that I will go as long as she can tell me she would be okay if the situation were reversed, and that I won't go if she wouldn't be okay if the situation were reversed.  I'll tell her that I am fine with her going without me and will just do something on my own during that time.  I just feel that if I bite my lip and go, and at some later date she comes at me with jealousy issues over something else, I will develop serious resentments.  

Thoughts?

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[walksoftly]

You are trying to make sense out of a nonsensical situation.

You are trying to have a functional relationship with a dysfunctional person.

Run

[Rapt Reader]

You are trying to make sense out of a nonsensical situation.

You are trying to have a functional relationship with a dysfunctional person.

Run

I can see how you would think that, walksoftly, if you aren't currently in a relationship with a loved one with BPD. But we're on the Staying Board, and the members of this Board are working on and trying to better their relationships. We all put our heads together, tell each other what works for us, and giving our strategies and successes and support really does help us in our endeavours. Sometimes the dysfunction can be managed using the The Lessons to the right-hand side of this page, and when that happens, things get better  

While I know I can take the high road and not let this bother me, my feeling is that if I go with her to visit this ex, I will be enabling the double standard.   During therapy this week somehow this topic came up.  I mentioned exactly what I said above, that I have no issues with her being friends with an ex, but I do have issues if this is a double standard.  My fiancé then tried to justify this - that it's not the same situation because I don't have any exes that fall into the same category as this guy - in other words, this is not a double standard because her relationship with him was different.  I just don't think she understood where I was coming from that it's not the details or type of relationship that matters, it's the situation and the reaction - is she wanting me to do something that she herself would not be comfortable with.  And CLEARLY she would not be okay if the situation were reversed.

maxsterling, I can see where you are coming from... .Things that feel unfair to us can really cause resentment. I'm curious why she thinks that her relationship with her Ex is different than the one you have/had with the Ex she got jealous over? I'm sure she's got some logic behind that thinking (heck, I'm not BPD, but lots of times my logic is completely the opposite of my Husband's, and we tend to chalk it up to my being a female and him being a male when we can find no other explanation for the differences   ).

And can I let you in on a little secret? Her statement to you makes sense to me in some small way; I can see myself telling my own Husband such a thing about a situation when I truly see that our circumstances aren't exactly the same, and how I feel about it makes sense... .I'm really curious what makes her Ex different than yours, in her eyes.

So what do I do here?  I really don't want to play this double standard game.  But I don't know how to set a boundary.  I don't want to tell her who she can or can't be friends with, because I don't care and that's not the point.  I'm thinking that if she asks me to visit this ex with her, I will ask her that I will go as long as she can tell me she would be okay if the situation were reversed, and that I won't go if she wouldn't be okay if the situation were reversed.  I'll tell her that I am fine with her going without me and will just do something on my own during that time.  I just feel that if I bite my lip and go, and at some later date she comes at me with jealousy issues over something else, I will develop serious resentments.  

Thoughts?

I'm thinking that your plan might not go over too well, if she does indeed feel threatened by that Ex of yours for some reason that is different in her mind than it is in yours. An example: If her Ex was a boyfriend that she didn't live with, or wasn't intimate with, and your Ex was someone you were in a long term, cohabitation with--or maybe were engaged to. Something that signifies that you had more of an emotional and physical attachment than she did with her Ex that she's interested in visiting. Does any of that make sense?

Depending on your own situation here, maybe validating her feelings and using S.E.T. can help you navigate this conflict?

[formflier]

 

I think Rapt Reader helped to define the "battlefield" that is here... .let me see if I can draw this out some more.

Max,

You want to figure out how do deal with the "situation"... .and I think you really need to think less about the situation... .and more about how your fiancee's mind works... .and came up with this situation.  Especially if you can match up her logic with the emotions around it.

Then... .you have something to validate... .and also something to make sure you don't invalidate.

The battlefield is not whether or not this is "fair" to you... .the battlefield is her mind.  As you know... lots of minefields in there.  You've "stepped on" a landmine somehow with the one ex of yours.  You need to figure out how/why that mine was laid... .so you can find the rest of the mines that act that way.

Somehow... .I don't think my minefield example is going to make it into the lessons... . 

But... .hopefully some of this makes sense.

Last... .something I will point out... .since Rapt Reader brought it up.

HUGE differences in the way men and women look at exes.  Generally... .guys don't get it... .and women get pissed about something... .guys end up in doghouse... .and most likely never learn/understand.  No BPD here... .just men and women romantic differences... .IMO.

So... I'll sign off by saying... .do some soul searching... .and figure out if this is really a big deal to you.  If not in your top few "issues" that you would like to work on.  Move along... .

If it is in the top... .the I think we should keep focusing effort on this.

[123Phoebe]

Hey Max,

I wouldn't get wrapped up in the "fairness" of it all; to me that's enmeshed thinking.  If it's sincerely not a big deal to you, then I wouldn't make a big deal out of it.  I wouldn't necessarily compare the two situations, so would address them as separate issues.  This one being a non-issue, since it's not one as far as you're concerned.  Who knows?  Maybe your chill behavior will rub off on her a little

[sweetheart]

Hello maxsterling,

Like 123phoebe said if it's not an issue for you, can you choose your battle and leave this one go and just enjoy the trip for what it is, time away together?

Your fiancée has a lot going on at the moment with her work situation and as you will be acutely aware it wouldn't take much for her to dysregulate again and neither of you want this.

Maybe once you are away it might be possible for you to suggest doing something she might not want to do and then she go see her ex. Maybe... .

[maxsterling]

Thanks for the advice everyone.   The truth is, this is a big issue for me, and if I sat there with her and the ex I would be immensely uncomfortable.  A small component of that is jealousy, and I recognize that, and I can deal with that.  But the much larger component is that I know I can't just sit there and try to be social when I know on the front of my mind will be the glaring double standard that she wants me to do something and be happy about it when she could not bring herself to do the same. 

But you know, with all she is dealing with now, I just don't feel this is the time to bring up r/s issues.  But, that's the story of this r/s.  I don't ever feel there is a good time to try and discuss this stuff, because she is always dealing with a crisis.  Right now, she's back to making the occasional "kill myself" statement.  I dealt with that daily for 6 months, but haven't heard any of that for the past 2-3 months. 

After re-reading my plan and everyone's responses I see some obvious flaws.  I really should not compare situations = guaranteed disaster with a pwBPD.  As to why she has jealousy to this particular ex - there may be reasons, but the real reason is BPD and she can have jealousy to any other woman I may say hi to in the supermarket or simply looks at me.  But this is a very big issue for me - I don't like double standards.  But now that I think about it, I've already told her in T session that I have issues with double standards, and that I think this situation would constitute a double standard, and I think she filed that away, so there is really no reason to bring it up again.  So if the situation comes up where she wants to visit her ex, I may simply tell her that I am not comfortable doing that (she already has my explanation - no need to explain further) and that I am perfectly comfortable with her doing that on her own while I do something on my own.  Maybe that would work better. 

[formflier]

 

Good plan... .

Make sure you are very even in your delivery of suggesting she go see him and you do something else... .

Practice up on saying you hope she has a good time... .make sure that is cheerfully given.

Longer term issue... .is that pwBPD seem to put out lots of double standard situations... .so... .I would file this away in the "need to work on this category".

Probably won't ever get to the point you are happy with it... .but hopefully you can get to the point where it is less of an issue.

[maxsterling]

Longer term issue... .is that pwBPD seem to put out lots of double standard situations... .so... .I would file this away in the "need to work on this category".

Probably won't ever get to the point you are happy with it... .but hopefully you can get to the point where it is less of an issue.

I think this is part of my desire to make some kind of a boundary here.  I understand and accept that some amount of double standard crops up in any relationship.  Some of that is inevitable considering everyone is different, and different genders behave differently.  And I understand that in a BPD relationship, double standards are going to be more prevalent.  But I see this issue cropping up again and again, and me feeling more and more hurt and resentful.  I feel if I don't say/do something now, it will just get worse.

[123Phoebe]

Longer term issue... .is that pwBPD seem to put out lots of double standard situations... .so... .I would file this away in the "need to work on this category".

Probably won't ever get to the point you are happy with it... .but hopefully you can get to the point where it is less of an issue.

I think this is part of my desire to make some kind of a boundary here.  I understand and accept that some amount of double standard crops up in any relationship.  Some of that is inevitable considering everyone is different, and different genders behave differently.  And I understand that in a BPD relationship, double standards are going to be more prevalent.  But I see this issue cropping up again and again, and me feeling more and more hurt and resentful.  I feel if I don't say/do something now, it will just get worse.

Can you put your boundary into words, realizing and relating what your values are?

When we get super clear with ourselves, it makes it much easier to express our desires.

The truth is, this is a big issue for me, and if I sat there with her and the ex I would be immensely uncomfortable.  A small component of that is jealousy, and I recognize that, and I can deal with that.  But the much larger component is that I know I can't just sit there and try to be social when I know on the front of my mind will be the glaring double standard that she wants me to do something and be happy about it when she could not bring herself to do the same. 

So, if she were totally cool with meeting and hanging with an ex of yours, not an issue at all, would you be happy to meet and hang with her ex for a few?

If this is the case, then who's mirroring whom here?  It's easy to get twisted up in these relationships, so it's very important to live according to our values. 

No doubt that double-standards suck.  If you're uncomfortable meeting this person, then don't, that's your prerogative.  Do you see it helping you, her and the relationship in the long run?  Bringing you closer to reaching your goals?  In what ways?

This is the sort of thing I ask myself when faced with a hmmm, something's not sitting with me right here type of feeling... .

[maxsterling]

Can you put your boundary into words, realizing and relating what your values are?

When we get super clear with ourselves, it makes it much easier to express our desires.

I think that is what is going through my head now - just trying to figure out exactly what my boundary is here - and what values I feel are being compromised.  Sure, I don't want double standards in my relationship, but that's really too ambiguous of a boundary and not something that can realistically be achieved.  But specifically what my problem is here... .you know, if she asks me to go with her, and I decline, and she is okay with it, I guess I have no problem.  But I would have a problem if she is mad or resentful at me for declining.  So I guess I am just projecting a problem that hasn't happened yet.

So, if she were totally cool with meeting and hanging with an ex of yours, not an issue at all, would you be happy to meet and hang with her ex for a few?

If this is the case, then who's mirroring whom here?  It's easy to get twisted up in these relationships, so it's very important to live according to our values. 

I'm not clear on what you mean here.  I would be perfectly okay hanging out with her and him as long as the reverse situation were okay with her.  But it hasn't been so far in this relationship, and I don't expect it to be.  To me, the nature of her relationship with him is a separate issue, and a separate boundary - and I don't see that as an issue here.  My problem is being asked to do something that she would not be okay with herself.  But that's not really true, she can always ask, but my issue would be that if I told her I was uncomfortable and declined, and if she were mad about that.  I dunno.  It's so confusing.  I don't think I would really be phased by this if it were not for past incidents in which she showed signs of extreme jealousy, and I took heat and changed what I wanted to do because of her. 

[Grey Kitty]

I see three issues here, max:

#1: You see a double standard in her behavior. All I can suggest here is accept that she feels this way. Yes, it really sucks... .but you won't beat this one directly. If/when she becomes mentally and emotionally healthy this issue will just go away.

#2: You ran into your exGF, and she dysregulated and was jealous, and won't even go to this town anymore.

Regarding this sort of situation--You can set a boundary where you assert that you will spend time with the people you want to spend time with, whether they are an ex of yours or not. (This will be a tough one, and may not be worth the effort and risk to your r/s)

Even if you do this, she has every right to stay clear and have nothing to do with your exGF. You cannot force this of her.

I think you are saying that now you regret giving in on this issue in the past... .that caving in on this is going against your values somehow... .I recommend you think more about this, even though it is too late to change what you did then. Next time something like this comes up, you can be prepared to do better.

#3: Your partner wants to visit her exBF, and wants you to come along.

Jealousy is a feeling you need to listen to and then cope with. I say listen, because it sometimes tells you when you need to be paying attention to something that really is going on. Other times, the green-eyed monster is inventing crap.

However, *if* you decide you aren't worried about her cheating or having an emotional affair with this ex, you really have no reason to stop her from seeing him.

It is your choice if you go along for the trip or not.

... .

Pardon me for being blunt... .if you try to stop her just because of the double standard, nothing good will come of this. Don't do it.

[123Phoebe]

So, if she were totally cool with meeting and hanging with an ex of yours, not an issue at all, would you be happy to meet and hang with her ex for a few?

If this is the case, then who's mirroring whom here?  It's easy to get twisted up in these relationships, so it's very important to live according to our values. 

I'm not clear on what you mean here. 

I don't think I would really be phased by this if it were not for past incidents in which she showed signs of extreme jealousy, and I took heat and changed what I wanted to do because of her. 

This is what I was getting at with the 'mirroring' comment, just what you described^^  When we twist ourselves into different people by owning their issues ("because of her... .", or reflect back through our actions that what they want/do takes precedence, by us following suit ("I'm not going to, because you wouldn't".

We are separate people.  We needn't take on their issues as our own; it's a sure way to build resentment.  It's like a tit-for-tat mentality that actually places wedges between us, all of our own doing.  Just because someone has an extreme reaction to something, doesn't necessarily mean it is our problem, or that we need to change who we are in order for them to feel better about themselves, or seemingly easier for us to deal with in the moment ----> when later, we try to teach them a lesson ("I will ask her that I will go as long as she can tell me she would be okay if the situation were reversed, and that I won't go if she wouldn't be okay if the situation were reversed".)

Be true to who you are, max, taking her past jealous-reactions out of the equation. 

How do you truly feel about meeting this ex of hers?  Own it and live it.

[maxsterling]

I think you are saying that now you regret giving in on this issue in the past... .that caving in on this is going against your values somehow... .I recommend you think more about this, even though it is too late to change what you did then. Next time something like this comes up, you can be prepared to do better.

I think you nailed it.  This is the real reason I feel bothered.  Not that I wanted to see or spend time with my ex on that one incident, but it happened, yet I didn't want it to ruin what we wanted to do.  And it did.  I didn't set a boundary here.  And other incidents where she makes jealous comments or arguments, I've felt hurt, yet not found a way to have a good boundary here.  I get emotionally roped into her accusation, and I am already resentful, that she made big issues out of nothing, I had no boundary, and will probably make big issues out of nothing again, and I will still have no strong boundary.  Yet here is a similar issue in reverse, and I want to make a boundary here as a means of trying to preempt future boundary crossing comments/arguments by her.  And that won't work, at all.

I've already brought up the idea that this is a double standard.  It's in her brain.  The more I think about it, the more I am recognizing I don't think she has the capacity to understand what a double standard is, because not only are double standards the rule in her relationships, THEY ARE THE BASIS.  Not just dating relationships, ALL RELATIONSHIPS.  She wants to be with people who are not like her - she hates herself.  She hates it when people act like her!

#3: Your partner wants to visit her exBF, and wants you to come along.

Jealousy is a feeling you need to listen to and then cope with. I say listen, because it sometimes tells you when you need to be paying attention to something that really is going on. Other times, the green-eyed monster is inventing crap.

However, *if* you decide you aren't worried about her cheating or having an emotional affair with this ex, you really have no reason to stop her from seeing him.

It is your choice if you go along for the trip or not.

I don't think my core issue here is jealousy at all.  Frankly, I don't care if she sees him.  I trust her to not be inappropriate.  I don't want to stop her from seeing him.  But I do recognize that I would be uncomfortable in that situation, partly for the reason listed above (that I don't know how to have boundaries against her jealousy issues), but partly because this is my vacation, too and I would rather do something else with my time.  I think my course of action here will be to simply encourage her to do that on her own, and I will be happy to do my own thing.  She needs no further explanation here.

Then again, I am projecting something that may not happen.

[Olinda]

Sounds like in the past you have changed your plans due to her reactions. And you don't wish to spend time with this ex or hers, trust her to handle herself appropriately, and would like to spend time doing something else.  All of that is okay.

She may not be happy if you put this out there as something you'd like to do (go be somewhere else), but that is her right. You don't have to give in just because of fear of her reaction.