Christian Discussion

[reluctanthusband]

MC is so difficult for us.  I get the whole happy feelings training and I know it works because in all honesty I do it all the time.  Like when I want to choke the life out of her for blaming me for her infidelity I try and think about something positive because choking the life out of her is by all means negative even if I would never do it just the thought is bad/unhealthy in my mind.  We go through seasons and it hurts to have to always be walking on different eggshells depending on what ever flavor of crazy she may be acting out with.  

We are seeing a Non-Religious MC right now and he is a good guy but does not go into the spiritual aspect of our relationship.  Right now the biggest issue is where to go to church.  She was hurt at the church we were going to for 4 years and decided to totally act out and paint the entire church black and in turn claiming that I am not taking my spiritual lead in the home.  The funny thing is she is demonstrating every action and belief that is contrary to the belief system that she is measuring me against.  So because I am actually fulfilling my role in the home and refusing to leave my church because she is acting against her own principles.  She says that I am not taking the MC advise.  I am holding fast to my convictions(biblical rules) and have been validated by many pastor to include the main pastor and assistant pastor of the church she is going to now.  Now she wants to go to a Christian counselor which just starts the whole process over AGAIN and then because I know I am correct and doing the things I am supposed to we will go through the BS all over again to come to the same conclusion.  My wife is acting "Un-Biblical" due to a mental illness that she won't acknowledge or sees is tearing me apart.  The man that is still staying with her despite the infidelity and the almost 14 years of constant emotional abuse is not acting like a Christian Husband should... .Sigh    

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Tough spot to be in.

I would be in favor of ADDING a spiritual element to your counseling... .but not taking away the secular element.

In other words... .keep a foot in each place.

Has your wife been in for evaluations... .pysch testing? 

If not... .could be a good step. 

You could agree to add in religious/spiritual counseling and evaluations from a biblical perspective... .and she could agree to go in for in depth testing.  Make sure all bases are covered.

You should show leadership and get tested and evaluated as well.

Thoughts?

[reluctanthusband]

So we were going to a Christian family counselor that was the first to let me know about the BPD and that he thought she was a mild pwBPD.  Unfortunately he passed away before any official diagnosis was penned. I would say now that we have been to a secular counselor I get a fuller scope of what can be done and that does help I would say the secular portion is more practically applied and the spiritual less so.  I will say that the secular side has done more for me in my part in the back and forth with disengaging and breaking the cycle.  The spiritual part is what crushes me.

She has not been in for any evaluations because she doesn't believe in labels.  To be in a position to accept being evaluated would be to admit that there MAY be a problem.  She doesn't want to face it.  It is all my unforgiveness and ungracefullness that makes her feel the way she does.  So my fault.  I have not been evaluated but have been told I may have some co-dependant issues due to being "trained" for so long.

I have no problems with spiritual counseling because I believe I am functioning well within the boundaries of what I am supposed to do and have been validated in that.  For her there are these set of Biblical guidelines that she is refusing to follow because of her feelings but expects everyone else to be held to her standards.  The whole leader follower thing.  I am supposed to lead the family and she is supposed to follow my lead unless I am making her do something Sinfull she is to follow.  Likewise even though she gives me hell for staying at the church I am still supposed to lead her.  Unless I am un-saved or acting well outside the guidelines I am to lead not follow.  Her perspective(un-biblically so)is that if I am not leading the way that she likes then I am to follow her and her feelings.

I know this relationship(leader/follower) may seem odd to the non-religious/spiritual but is applicable to any authority leader/follower relationship.  I am a Marine and have been for 16+ years I TOTALLY understand that leader follower dynamic.  Leaders make choices that are unpopular to those that are lead but that is the burden of leadership.  In this case she does not or will not recognize that fact.  In a biblical sense she is being rebellious and I cannot support that but now it is all my fault for not attending to her feelings.

Part of me just wants to give up and just do what she wants and short circuit the way we are supposed to be just for some inner peace.  But the fighter in me wants to keep up the pressure and not break.  It is such a painful state to be in all the time. 

[formflier]

I'll write more later...

I'm a retired Naval Aviator... .was Skipper of a couple units... .etc etc.

So... I think I'm up on how you are thinking and approaching this... .

Your instincts will lead you astray... .a strong leadership style can be invalidating and focused too much on facts.  At least it was in my case.

I'm also a conservative Christian guy... .we kept our marriage problems in the church for too long.  They were not equipped to handle the severity of what was going on.  In fact the first secular counselor was the first time I ever heard of BPD.

Hang in there... .more later.

Show leadership... .go get evaluated... .MMPI... .maybe PAI... .several others.  

Turn the logic on her... .if there is nothing wrong... .then she shouldn't be afraid of getting evaluated.

Be consistent... .don't give up!

[reluctanthusband]

There is no way she is going to get evaluated even if I do.  Part of that is she thinks I am going to use it against her in court to take away the kids.  Of course that is delusional as I am currently stationed in CA and to separate and divorce is an emotional/financial pain I'm not willing to go through right now.  Unless I get a break and she does something really bad like a Psychotic break or something I am stuck dealing with this until I can't take any more.  Although the infidelity happened a long time ago she told me right before our 10 year anniversary.  Lied for over 8 years  I am terrified of her doing it again as I believe that she is still capable of doing it.  The trappings of our children have distracted her I believe.  I sometimes I desire an event like one of those just so I could break it off.  I have been pretty much depressed for the past 4 years after finding out what she did and what was the real problem.   I honestly think she knows she has a problem it is just too hard for her to admit it. Of course "MY" problems are never owning up to and working on my stuff she likes to remind me that its all my fault from the begining.  Even if the tests point out that there is a problem she won't accept it.  In all honesty I think that she is capable of training for the test and getting an inconclusive reading. 

We were going to the first Christian counselor for almost 2 years before he passed away.  Then took a break for a long while then her Step Father the man who raised her died which cause all of the splitting black of my current church and has continued on for over a year.  I have contemplated suicide multiple times, daydreamed of affairs and just been in want of a normal relationship where I am not walking on eggshells or having to second guess my thoughts and words all the time.     

[Indyan]

I have contemplated suicide multiple times, daydreamed of affairs and just been in want of a normal relationship where I am not walking on eggshells or having to second guess my thoughts and words all the time. 

You sound like you've really hit the bottom line. Isn't there something you could do to feel better? Is separation an option (without getting divorced)? Or therapy just for you?

Or activities you could share with friends, or your kids?

[reluctanthusband]

See the thing is I have been such a devout family man that even the things I like to do are all geared towards the family.  Separation is not an option I'm in the military and live an hour from my workplace.  Although separation is what would be warranted it is as good as a divorce.  She believes that I just want to have a single life and not worry about the kids and have copious amounts of sex with lots of women.  There is absolutely and I mean ABOSOLUTELY no shred of evidence or actions on my part that would suggest that.  I have had therapy, counseling and just good friends that have herd me out and let me vent over the years.  If I take a personal time out or take some me time that does not have to do with gardening I get a guilt trip about how hard her day was and I also feel guilty to an extent because I am not being productive with my home time because I get a few hours a night and the weekends.

[Rapt Reader]

For her there are these set of Biblical guidelines that she is refusing to follow because of her feelings but expects everyone else to be held to her standards.  The whole leader follower thing.  I am supposed to lead the family and she is supposed to follow my lead unless I am making her do something Sinfull she is to follow.  Likewise even though she gives me hell for staying at the church I am still supposed to lead her.  Unless I am un-saved or acting well outside the guidelines I am to lead not follow.  Her perspective(un-biblically so)is that if I am not leading the way that she likes then I am to follow her and her feelings.

... .Leaders make choices that are unpopular to those that are lead but that is the burden of leadership.  In this case she does not or will not recognize that fact.  In a biblical sense she is being rebellious and I cannot support that but now it is all my fault for not attending to her feelings.

So, the Biblical guidelines she is refusing to adhere to, have to do with being willing to follow your lead and attend the church that you want to attend? She needs to not give you a hard time about your attendance, and also her own? I am also a Christian (not actually conservative, but I do understand the Husband as Leader dynamic), so I can understand your frustration. I'm curious if the whole leadership/followership issue is related to the church you are choosing to stay involved in? Is her rebelliousness related to her refusal to attend it with you?

What are the reasons she wants to go to a different church? Do they have anything to do with her past affair, and her maybe being embarrassed or ashamed that the members of this particular church might be aware of that affair? If the Christian Counselor you were seeing (because of her affair?) was from that same church, would she maybe have a realistic fear of embarrassment or shame? Have you validated her feelings and concerns about the church you are going to? From her point of view, is her adamancy about this issue in any way understandable?

I have contemplated suicide multiple times, daydreamed of affairs and just been in want of a normal relationship where I am not walking on eggshells or having to second guess my thoughts and words all the time. 

Are you OK, reluctanthusband? Have you mentioned these feelings to a Counselor or your Minister/Priest? You might want to read this link: Depression and Suicidal Ideation, and this: TOOLS: Ease your pain by reframing your thoughts, and even this: What does it mean to take care of yourself?

I am in agreement with Indyan: What are you doing for yourself, in order to feel better, and stronger emotionally? This is a tough situation you are in, and taking care of your own emotional well-being and safety is imperative for you and your family 

[waverider]

If I take a personal time out or take some me time that does not have to do with gardening I get a guilt trip about how hard her day was and I also feel guilty to an extent because I am not being productive with my home time because I get a few hours a night and the weekends.

This is the basic problem you have to overcome. There are many reasons you got to this point in the first place. It happens to us all. We are pressured into thinking that being single mindedly devout is the most import part of being a supportive partner. The truth is it is not.

Once you loose your individuality you loose the ability to be a supportive rock, as that rock shifts with the sand. If you benchmark your performance on a partners reactions to your thoughts or judgements, especially if your partner has disordered thinking, this means your stability as a benchmark is questionable.

Your wife gives you a guilt trip.This happens in RS's in general not just BPD ones, pwBPD are just more effective and persistent at it. You are entitled to private time, private time gives you the chance to stand back and make more objective decisions. You can't stop your wife giving you the guilt treatment, but you can stop yourself believing it.

In other words you do not have to doubt your own reality. If she repeatedly tried to convince you the moon is made of cheese, would you believe it simply because she was persistent?

Wanting you to be a leader, but lead the way she wants you to is simply her not wanting to hand over control yet at the same time not wanting to take responsibility for anything. She wants to write the script and you to sign off on it. The religious aspect is simply part of the cloak which is masking typical BPD behavior

pwBPD need to perceive external reasons as to why they do or think the way they do. However they fear being controlled. This commonly leads to conflict along the whole victim/rescuer dynamics. The victim likes the "process" of being rescued but does not want to be "rescued" as in wanting the process completed as they want to stay in the "need to be rescued stage'. The rescuer gets frustrated as they can never complete the rescue.

With the victim constantly sabotaging the rescue the rescuers are stuck and often end up in a state of despair and guilt of failure.

You have to hand a degree of the responsibility for themselves back to the pwBPD, or they will never learn self soothing. You cannot take total responsibility for a pwBPD, even if they want you to, their ultimate fear of being control will reject it >push/pull dynamic

[reluctanthusband]

Yes her rebelliousness is related to not attnding with me. Everything was fine until a year ago when her stepfather died of cancer.  He was diying for a long time(people prayed for her and consoled her) and when he finally passed away she was showing on the outside that she was holding together real well. everyone though that she was fine and had made peace with it.  My self included I thought she was fine.  This turned into no one loves me I knew they didn’t love me.  There is no community(there is) the church is new age(Its not) and there is no decipleship program(there is).  And when It got nasty between her accusations and some of the women of the church I new beyond a shadow of a doubt that she was in the wrong.  Could the church have done more sure most can do more.  But it was so hidden I her husband didn’t even pick up on it.  All of these women that she has been nasty to have just let her be in her mess and I don’t blame them.  She said Im not going to a church like that!

Because I believe you should not leave a church without good reason and or trying to fix the problem I became the problem.  I have been accused of being a weak christian a poor leader and not even havaing a realtionship with our God.  All because I am not running away from a good church because my wife's feeling were hurt(because of her skewed perception).  Now im not following her so divinely inspired lead.  To be clear I have not been lead to leave my church, have had to pull out of serving within the church because of our issues, and have had to pretty much leave some long friendships because my wife has put such a bad taste in other peoples mouths.

The affair was not in our church happened during our second year of marriage but I didnt find out until our 9th year.  It is what lead to counseling that eventually led to the counselor telling me he thought she was a mild BPD.  Very few people in the church know about it mostly a few leaders and 2 pastors. As far as being understandable no I don’t think so.  My wife has always had this desire to be a leader to be in charge and a desire to lead.  This has led her to always having friends that are UTTERLY broken makes her feel better about herself and allows her give wisdom.  Any time that she tries to do something in leadership it fails or something happens and she gets "Wronged" and paints the whole thing black.  She dosent know her limits and over sells herself all the time.  If I kept trying to do something and the door kept closing for me I would reasses get back to basics and start again making sure I am starting from the right place.  Not her she believes she has this super high calling.  To be fair I believe that she CAN do that I totally believe in High Callings but you have to be faithfull in the small things before you are given the bigger things.

One of the biggest issues she has with me is the church she is currently going to is a good church I won't kock them.  Heck is a Sister church to the one I am going to.  They have a different flavor that I just don’t care for not bad just don't care for.  The senior pastor kinda knows whats going on and the youth pastor also knows.  Well there is a leadership training program there where they will be training to lead folks in the church mainly younger folk.  Both the pastors agree that she should follow me and attend my church.  But she disagrees with them.  Well she wanted to join this group of leaders in training and the youth pastor asked her to get my blessing.  I said no not right now, not never, not she is not good enough just not now.  I told him that there are some things that we need to work out as a couple before I can give my blessing for her to potentially lead other younger women single and or married.  If she cant follow biblical submission and authority at home how can she be expexted to teach/model that for others.   

So now Im the bad guy for not letting her grow.

[reluctanthusband]

Sorry for not clarifying but I am OK I have those thoughts but they are not part of my every day thoughts.  It comes and goes in waves as always on the ups and downs of this roller coaster.

[reluctanthusband]

WaveRider

I have been trying to carve out some me time and the secular counselor also is pushing me for the same thing.  I do feel less guilty most times but it is always the case that a mountain of stuff piles up and then when I go do my me time I feel guilty.  I am admittedly really hard on myself a lot because I am a Marine and there is soo much to do, and because I am the only one that can I DO. Up early on the weekends work hard all day.  You know I get a sense of satisfaction when I do see the physical fruits of my labor and the exaustion that follows its weird but I love physical labor  the harder the better.  Call it therapy I don’t know but it is.

But I also harbor a lot of bitterness when I purposfully go do my me time because I "HAVE" to make me time.  Like why do I have to have ME TIME.  I should just be semi happy most of the time when most of the time im not.  Like I wouldn’t have to deal with the type of guilt trip if you were not so crazy.

I totally get the Vicitim/Rescuer dynamic.  It’s the finances for us.  She contiinues to worry about the finances despite having enough money for the bills and such.  But she spends too much and then we get into a tight spot and I'm ok with it because I know it will all work out ALWAYS does.  She complains that it is SUCH a burden to have to do the finances all the time.  I say ok lets sit down and look at the finances.  I show her how she is spending like an ASS and I try to reel back the spending so that we can make progress.  What does she do?  She complains that I'm being too controlling.  What do I always do?  I back off because I don’t want to deal with the money controlling fight... .untill the next time.

[Rapt Reader]

Sorry for not clarifying but I am OK I have those thoughts but they are not part of my every day thoughts.  It comes and goes in waves as always on the ups and downs of this roller coaster.

Thanks for explaining this, reluctanthusband... .I'm very glad to hear that!

As far as your wife's not wanting to attend the same church that you do, I can see how you would view it as her not following your lead, and how that would frustrate you. Especially if she is asking you to lead, and then not following where you lead    

The tricky thing is that when it comes to spirituality and church attendance, right or wrong, if she is not comfortable in the church you attend, I don't know how you can "make" her go there, too. Is she happy with the compromise of you going where you are comfortable, and her going where she is comfortable? I know there is the complication of her wanting to attend Leadership training in her church and you not thinking she should. Is there any way for you to get out of having to make that decision for her? I mean, could the Leaders of her church be the "bad guys" there, telling her that she is not ready for it, rather than you? Would that help at all so that she won't see you as trying to control her in this instance?

We each have our own souls, and if she is trying to find the right journey for herself, I don't see how you can really squash all of that. Of course, she shouldn't be squashing your own soul's journey, either, so is there a way for the two of you to compromise on this? I know that if my Husband tried to make me go to a church that I was not comfortable with (and whether you are happy with her reasons or not, she's not comfortable there), I would rebel, too. My soul is mine, and he really needs to let me tend to it... .

Though I don't have BPD; this is just my take, as a wife    Is there any way for you to validate her feelings with all of this, using S.E.T.? Any room for compromise?

[formflier]

 

Similar financial issues going on in my r/s.  Don't have a lot of time to chat right now about them.

In my r/s I punted finances... .she now understands what she has... and doesn't want it anymore (i think).  I'm sure this will come up in MC tomorrow.

Your job is to not let her have it both ways... .if she wants control... .she is responsible... .if she doesn't... .she can't complain about not having control. 

I realize the above is much easier said... than done... .

[waverider]

But I also harbor a lot of bitterness when I purposfully go do my me time because I "HAVE" to make me time.  Like why do I have to have ME TIME.  I should just be semi happy most of the time when most of the time im not.  Like I wouldn’t have to deal with the type of guilt trip if you were not so crazy.

I felt like this when I was establishing it as it didn't feel like my choice, but more like I was being exiled by necessity. Running away even. The whole point was that it established the principle. Now I can go do "my thing" because I want to, when I want, not as a means of escape. As a result these are now merely periodic frustrations, which is more in the "normal" range.

I get that hard work until exhaustion thing, its like a release of adrenalin followed by the satisfaction of feeling like achieving a task


I am with Formflier, demarcation seems to be the best path to finances. I had to take total control of essentials and my partner was left with discretionary spending. Negotiations never worked. Budgeting needs consistency and commitment, these are not strong points for pwBPD. Impulsiveness, and the justifications for it, always seems to get in the way despite all promises.

A lot of the changes we need to make do feel forced and unnatural at first. Almost like role playing, but this is necessary to get the momentum going that is necessary to change personalities. Once the personality dynamics start to change it feels more natural and you can start going into cruise mode and tailor any changes to what feels better. Some things work some don't, as despite the impressions you might get from reading other peoples stories everyone, and every RS, is different.

[formflier]

 

In my case I have the luxury of a pension and some disability income that is guaranteed.

So... if she totally screws things up... .by the first of the month there is $$ there for essentials.

in a r/s with pwBPD traits... .being "happy" with things is something that I recommend putting out of your head. 

With money I know that the family will be taken care of... .that there is no real danger for them.  Therefore I am "ok" with it... but not "happy".

Plus... .since she is the one stroking checks and paying bills... .I am no longer accused of doing this and that with money.

This has gotten better in other areas as well.  I think that doing bills has been good for her because she realizes how much work it is... .

there are complaints now about much time it takes... .she doesn't understand... .etc etc... .

I validate the frustration... .express some sympathy... .and assure her she will learn and it will get better.

We'll see where it goes.

there are some concrete things... .hand over financial statements and give me passwords that she said she would do two weeks ago in MC...   Hasn't happened yet.  I don't pester her about it... .no nagging.  She said she would do it... .and I haven't mentioned it since.  I've done my part of helping her with taxes.

Anyway... .it will be interesting to see what she says tomorrow when we discuss how past two weeks went.

In all seriousness... .past two weeks have been great.  I was completely prepared that she wouldn't follow through... .so no disappointment... .just an issue to work through... not to react to.

[reluctanthusband]

-Rapt Reader

So the thing is I have compromised over and over again you do it for soo many years and at one point you get sick of it.  I get the soul journey thing I totally do but as far as I have been taught and as far as I can understand those two journeys "should" be complimentary not antagonistic.  This is based off the assumption that both parties are at least Judeo-Christian and have a comperable spiritual compass.  One of the biggest things that I have seen with my wife and other wife's wBPD here is they don’t have a solid foundation of trust.  For them trust is as solid as shifting sand which makes the whole splitting thing work so well with them.  In our case my wife did not trust that the church had her back.  I disagreed because I see all the the things the church did and did not do practically and spiritually.  I laid that fault more on her because she has a skewed view of reality and peoples intentions.  I also am pretty practical and understand that you can't have full community(the way she wants it) without participation. 

She wants every one to be 100% there for her every need and BooHoo when she practically can't do the same.  She can try and has failed numerous times.  Had I not pulled us out of youth ministry she would have been still leading those young women and giving them advise.  There is a reasonable/acceptable level of brokenness to serve in a ministry but when a woman tells her husband about an affair that happened 8 years prior to relieve the burden on her and then Demand forgiveness right away that is too far in my eyes.  She thought it was ok to do this to me.  She sought no spiritual counsel, asked no questions and would have been told by all of the counselors that we have been to, to not tell me.  She is the same person then as she is now except she is free from that burden because it was laid on me to deal with.

For me I have not been lead to leave my church.  Is there some bitterness there oh yeah.  I am just supposed to stay away from relationships that I and my children love because my wife is broken?  But the thing is I trust that God will guide me when and If I am to leave.  I trust the basis of that relationship is that I understand that he will give me guidance.  I trust even to the point that I told my wife I have no objection to her going to the other church.  I don’t think it is the right decision but I trust that God will work in that.  For her she dosen't trust that I am going there because God is leading me.  To her I am a lukewarm Christain that has a weak relationship with God.  Or I want to have a life without her, Or Im having an affair, Or that I am taking "Their" side to hurt her. Assumtions and accusations BPD old hat I'm used to it.

I had a heart to heart with the Lead pastor and the leader(youth Pastor) of the bible study group she has been in and both of them agree that she is in the wrong and that she should be following me at the other church even if she is not happy with it.  Heck the youth pastor was in the same situation I'm in.  He was serving at a church his wife hated, but she was dilligent in serving her husband and made the best of it.  Instead of rebelling she trusted her husband and where God was leading them.  When my wife wanted to be part of this leadership group she asked me for my blessing.  I was stunned that she would ask for my blessing when in all reality she had told me that I had no authority over her decisions.  I asked the pastor if it was his idea for the blessing and he told me it was.  So had the pastor not asked for my blessing she would have jumped on it with out even a care if I agreed or not.  The pastor understood the authority that has been placed on me.  I told him that I did not give my blessing and that at this moment it would not be a good idea for her to be leading anyone as she has some fundamental spiritual issues to work out. Not Never but not right now. 

She of course bucked and has spit a lot of venom at me for doing so.  Is there room for compromise?  That all depends on what you see as compromise.  If you say that compromise means that I have to give up even partially on my beliefs and have the husband follow the wife even when he knows it is not what he is supposed to do then yeah. I can just do what she wants and follow her lead, loose friends and relationships.  I have already had to quit doing the one ministry I was serving in because of this and distance myself from my support that has in all honesty kept me from running away or killing myself.  Then yeah I can compromise.  I have done this soo many times it's sad and im kind of tired of it.

Do I know what this hard line stance I am currently taking will lead nope but I know I am doing the right thing right now and that is all I can hold onto.  I am trusting God will provide a way to make this work if not then I have to wait till we move and I'll get to have a decent church life for a while until she does her thing again.

[Rapt Reader]

I appreciate your filling in the blanks, reluctanthusband 

It does sound like the two of you are "dug in" when it comes to this issue, and since she should not hinder your spirituality, and you cannot hinder (in her eyes) hers, maybe this will have to be something you guys will have to "agree to disagree" on? Is that a possibility? Is your home church as a couple a deal-breaker for either one of you? Can you both just live with attending different churches, and you letting her fend for herself when it comes to a Leadership role in hers? I also don't think you should give up the support system that you need; if she has one of her own (at her own church?) she should also be able to keep it intact. The anger you each have for the other is pretty unfortunate, though... .It seems to be driving this conflict.

Do I know what this hard line stance I am currently taking will lead nope but I know I am doing the right thing right now and that is all I can hold onto.  I am trusting God will provide a way to make this work if not then I have to wait till we move and I'll get to have a decent church life for a while until she does her thing again.

This may end up being the best you can do in this tricky situation... .

[formflier]

 

Reluctanthusband,

Great discussion.  I'll try to come back later and provide a fuller response.

For now... .I'll leave you with a military type question... .

Think about the way you have approached her on issues in the past... .would you consider those "frontal assaults"... .or "flanking maneuvers"... .which worked better? 

[reluctanthusband]

-Formflyer

I don’t know? More like pschycological warfare if you ask me.  Usually a lot of mundane stuff we disagree about I just ignore or let her have her way because mundane goes to full tilt crazymaking if I just don’t let it go.  The stuff that is serious like character assination, questioning my salvation, my spiritual authority.  I get so angry I have been trying to just let it go but I fail sometimes.  It realy gets me that she doesn't show a shred of gratitude that I am still around.  If she could just have a moment of clarity and honestly say she is sorry for the hell she has put me through that would give me decades of strength.  But I have to sit here and just ride this ride.

-RaptReader

Us being at separate churches is not a total deal breaker as I feel ultimately we both have to answer for our actions and I believe that I am doing the right thing.  Agreeing to dissagree just doesn't exist in my house for the serious things.  If I dissagree with her I hate her there is no middle ground there.  She thinks that because I am not doing what she wants or thinks is right then she has the right to side step the same biblical principals she claims I am not following.  As far as her fending for herself for a leadership role I don’t think it will happen.  The youth pastor understands the illness and his wife was trained at one point in what BPD is.  I think she was a caseworker of sorts.  They know that she is living in dissobedience and I think that is why they made her ask my blessing.  Another thing is of practicality, my wife does not know how to judge her capabilities and is horrible with managing her time well.  So she's totally fine sitting on her cellphone looking a facebook all day sad that she thinks Im having an affair with some woman at work because she had some crazy dream. 

All the while the kids are still in their pajamas when I get home at 6pm(We Homeschool) and the house is a mess.  But has all the time in the world to go spend with the youth/young adult group till the wee hours of the night.  Then complains to me that the house is a mess at the end of the week and want sympathy from me because she is all wore out or gives me a guilt trip because I want to sit down and read an article on my phone at the end of the day.  One of the things that bugs me is we don’t fit in with that group of people.  We are older than all of them by at a minimum of 5 years we have three children one of which is almost old enough to be in the group herself.  We are a military family, none of them are, the most kids any of them have is 1.  And ALL of this was not so in my church.  We fit in.  Most of them know the day to day strugles(Boys Autistic/homeschooling)almost all were military or former/retired.   

[formflier]

So now Im the bad guy for not letting her grow.

There is lots to work with in this thread. 

Everyone needs a chance for spiritual growth.  Lots of spiritual growth comes from things that we don't choose but have to work through.

I would hope that in whatever counseling situations you end up in ... .that you are able to focus on this. 

If she is focused on any one thing as what she needs to do to grow spiritually... .then that needs to be focused on... because she has the concept wrong.

All situations in life... .good and bad... are opportunities for spiritual growth

[reluctanthusband]

If she is focused on any one thing as what she needs to do to grow spiritually... .then that needs to be focused on... because she has the concept wrong.

I don't understand the end part about having the concept wrong.  As far as working through the hard times for spiritual growth I understand that or I would not be married right now.  I understand that I may have to put up with this until the kids are grown.  My hope is for healing so I don’t have to look at it in those timeframes.  As far as spiritual growth I don’t see how I am supposed to support her in that if that is what you are eluding to.  She is desiring one thing spiritually but crushing people(mainly me) and ruining a lot of relationships in the process.  She wants me to follow her because of what she thinks based off of a skewed view of the world.  I will be clear this is not the first time she has been "hurt" and we have hopped churches.  It is just the first time it has happened since I knew about her BPD and this is the longest we have stayed in the same geographical region since we met.

I know a lot of it has been my enabling of her Illness up to this point just to make her stop.  I know that the reasoning that she left the church was wrong and she did it in a very destructive way.  I know that the way she is treating me in this whole process is wrong with the accusations of un-biblical relationships, taking sides and hating her and doing it to try and punish and hurt her.  I feel that if I give in to any of her desires that I am going to be going against my beliefs and reinforcing her bad behaviors.  I don’t believe that I am stopping her growth by not blessing the leadership training.  She has always complained about everything and everyone about the way they do things.  She has difficulty being lead to say the least.

I have had to pull back from what I was doing at my church because of her issues.  I am tempted to just jump back in to a bible study and serving.  That is one of her main things she says as to why should she have to follow my lead if I'm not going to bible study enough or serving enough. I get a little upset because it is because of her antics that I have pulled my self away from those things because I have to focus on the home and family time.  She would have no problem spending all day and night hanging out with church friends.  But I have to come home to a dirty house(sometimes) after working all day and have to do all of the domestics.  Then she gets mad at me and blasts me for not getting enough of her Honey-Do's done.  I know I'm venting at this point but when does it stop?  I'm holding my ground on the church business because I think that is a fundamental thing I have to hold on to or I am lost. 

[formflier]

If she is focused on any one thing as what she needs to do to grow spiritually... .then that needs to be focused on... because she has the concept wrong.

I don't understand the end part about having the concept wrong. 

Yeah... .so... .let's try this.  Some people will say they are stuck in spiritual grown because x hasn't happened yet.  X probably isn't going to happen for a while so that is their excuse for why they are not growing.

We know God uses all things for our benefit... .even bad things.  So... .there is no logic to a person that says you are preventing my spiritual growth... .

In your case... .you denying your blessing is a chance for her to grow.

Much like a child... .a person in mature enough to handle making hard choices... .when they are mature enough to handle not being able to make a choice.

She is obviously not able to handle you "denying her"... .and therefore has some work to do there.

Does this explain the concept better?

[reluctanthusband]

Yeah thanks. I understand what you were getting at now.  I'm torn because right now I have 2 real choices.  Stand firm and get back to serving my church praying that God will work in her and or we PCS(move on orders) and get a sudo-restart.  Or follow her to her church and be upset about it and be bitter that im moving against what I feel God has led me to do.  I keep going to the love and respect concept that says the more mature one makes the first move.  But how does that work if you ABSOLUTELY know that the other one wont follow along because they won, they are right and you were wrong.  I know its not about winning and loosing now because everybody is loosing now well everybody but the wife because she is where she wants to be.  I just wish it would stop.

[formflier]

Yeah thanks. I understand what you were getting at now.  I'm torn because right now I have 2 real choices.  Stand firm and get back to serving my church praying that God will work in her and or we PCS(move on orders) and get a sudo-restart.  Or follow her to her church and be upset about it and be bitter that im moving against what I feel God has led me to do.  I keep going to the love and respect concept that says the more mature one makes the first move.  But how does that work if you ABSOLUTELY know that the other one wont follow along because they won, they are right and you were wrong.  I know its not about winning and loosing now because everybody is loosing now well everybody but the wife because she is where she wants to be.  I just wish it would stop.

PCSing and the final PCS did provide "mini" start overs for me.  If I had knowledge earlier about BPD... .I think that could have really helped.

How long until PCS?  Or... .how long until you have to decide on orders.

I would stay away from winning and losing thinking... .  That is playing into a more childlike thinking... more black and white thinking that is typical of pwBPD.  It also gets you more into fighting the battle... .versus the war.

For people that want to be "stayers" we have to develop wisdom on how the battles relate to the war.

Can you think about your r/s... .and talk about the difference in battles and the war... .  I think that will help you make your choices.

[reluctanthusband]

So 9 months or so before I am eligible to talk to the monitor with a PCS/PCA around the end of dec 2015.  This should be my final set of orders before retirement.  Unles they give me an I&I billet near Dallas we should be up for one more move to our forever(for now) home.

The war - Is my marriage long term?  I from the begining, well before I found out about the affair and BPD. I had this painful feeling that it was not till death do us part.  I always believed that her "attitude/crazyness" was because I was a new Christian and didn't know how to love her like Christ called me to love her.  Despite me killing my self to do so.  I ended friendships, was rude and cold to women I worked with for fear of her finding out I was nice to them, gifts, poetry all of it. I stayed in the Corps so that she could go to school and have money to do the things.  I cooked I cleaned everything and gave more of my self than what is regular or even fair.

The Battle - Now that I know that she can be soo "hurt"  that she will discount my walk with God,  question my relationship and walk away from people that love her.  All the while pointing the finger at all of us saying we are not doing what is right being sinful, ungraceful, unforgiving people excusing her actions  because of her "feelings".  "If you were all right with God I wouldn't feel this way.  I am afraid of moving to another church. One because she has all this history that I know now totally affects how she interacts with people and two I know that it's comming again.      I try to fight just yelling at her when she is not content with anything.  Its so frustrating to fight being bitter all the time.

[formflier]

  gave more of my self than what is regular or even fair.

Did Christ give what is regular or fair?

Describe whose behavior God calls you to emulate in your marriage... .

[reluctanthusband]

Dang Formflier right to the point!  I get it I never said that I didn’t do it willingly.  My love language is acts of service.  I totally understand that her love language as with many other pwBPD varies depending on mood.  I would say that given the circumstances I have emulated well.  I am not perfect by any means and I have my good and bad days.  It is the fight that wears on me in spite of my actions.  I try to emulate Christ but keep getting beaten down  even in the midst of doing what I think is right and scripturally sound.  Now I will admit you and only one other individual have this unique perspective (military,Christian, huband of a pwBPD). The other was a Navy Chaplain of all people.  I would say that his wife was a full degree worse than mine from what he says, but he ended up in divorce because it got that bad.

He said to me once that my difficulty with drawing the line at how much is too much was that it had already been trampled over soo many times that I was in unknown territory.  We both(me and wife) come from absolutely broken families.  My strong desire to break away from that is what I believe has made me stay soo long.  The fight now is what to do right now?  Do I hold firm and walk separately from her to which a time as we move and HAVE to switch churches?  This kills me because Sunday morning is soo stressful,  My D12 understands that mom over reacts sometimes but doesn't understand why mom is mad at people my daughter loves and wants to be around.  The boys (7,6) Don’t want to go to either church because they are High Functioning autistic and don't always do well at church.  So they get terrible at her church and then she lashes out at me because I'm not there to help her out.  It will also look to her that if I jump back into serving at my church that I will be using it to get away from her or the children.  It happens all the time when she thinks that I am not giving her or the kids enough energy.  It is like a loose loose situation. 

Or I do I lose the battle and just go to her church that I have not been lead to go to and have to make a concerted effort to no be bitter about having to "follow" her knowing that the war is still raging.  Anything but absolute devotion to that idea will be a point of contention for her and gut me spiritually because I know it is not where we are supposed to be.  She wants to do things that I feel we should not do or be involved in ministries that I feel we do not fit in.  We do not fit into the under 30 group because of the previously mentioned age and station in life issues.  Not to mention the BPD issues that ALWAYS surface because most women pick up on my wife's behaviors right away.  I feel that is also a loose loose situation.

I mean RIGHT NOW as I am typing this at work she is trying to have a text fight with me about ending our secular counseling tonight which she wanted because she sees no point because I am not budging to go see a Christian counselor to work on the "Root Issues" that are holding me back.  It's like it wont ever stop.

[reluctanthusband]

So the last text fight ended better with the advice of the T.  Just to tell her that you won't fight over text and if she wanted to fight and say negative things to just answer with "I love you" or a smiley.  That pissed her off initially and she had some choice words to say to me but I kept at it and she eventually stopped.  I left straight from work to the T under the impression that she wasn't coming because she said so.  She pulled up behind me and ended up hijacking the session wanting to be seen separately from now on most of the time and only doing a joint session once a month with us individually once a week.  I'm ok with that if that means that she is seeing the T more. 

So I spoke to her Aunt that happens to be a very Godly woman that both of us trust(although I listen to what she says my wife not so much).  She said that with the understanding that everyone has issues, God will never draw a couple apart in two totally different directions.  She said that usually if both parties are claiming to being led by God you look at their individual actions in trying to win over the other party.  From the beginning although I was not happy about her going to the other church I gave up trying to convince her that what she was doing was not God and was all her feelings.  I felt that if It was God's plan that he would straighten it out and bring her back to me.  In essence I trusted God to work in both of us to bring her back.  I was also open to other directions, but in the end I trusted God and didn’t berate her about it.  On the other hand I have had the whole BPD playbook thrown at me about why I don’t follow her to her church.  I'm having an affair, I love a woman that is old enough to be my mother more than I love my wife, I'm weak, Unsaved and more everything you could think of.  So I think that I just have to stand firm at this point and start serving again at my church.  My walk has significantly been weakened over this past year and I just need to focus more on God than I have my BPD wife.     

[MaroonLiquid]

So the last text fight ended better with the advice of the T.  Just to tell her that you won't fight over text and if she wanted to fight and say negative things to just answer with "I love you" or a smiley.  That pissed her off initially and she had some choice words to say to me but I kept at it and she eventually stopped.  I left straight from work to the T under the impression that she wasn't coming because she said so.  She pulled up behind me and ended up hijacking the session wanting to be seen separately from now on most of the time and only doing a joint session once a month with us individually once a week.  I'm ok with that if that means that she is seeing the T more.  

So I spoke to her Aunt that happens to be a very Godly woman that both of us trust(although I listen to what she says my wife not so much).  She said that with the understanding that everyone has issues, God will never draw a couple apart in two totally different directions.  She said that usually if both parties are claiming to being led by God you look at their individual actions in trying to win over the other party.  From the beginning although I was not happy about her going to the other church I gave up trying to convince her that what she was doing was not God and was all her feelings.  I felt that if It was God's plan that he would straighten it out and bring her back to me.  In essence I trusted God to work in both of us to bring her back.  I was also open to other directions, but in the end I trusted God and didn’t berate her about it.  On the other hand I have had the whole BPD playbook thrown at me about why I don’t follow her to her church.  I'm having an affair, I love a woman that is old enough to be my mother more than I love my wife, I'm weak, Unsaved and more everything you could think of.  So I think that I just have to stand firm at this point and start serving again at my church.  My walk has significantly been weakened over this past year and I just need to focus more on God than I have my BPD wife.      

My wife going to another church ("for the kids activities"began the downward spiral for my wife, painting me black and our current separation.  I feel you on this one.  I think she knows she has a lot to do with their issues (including their abandoning deadbeat dad) and the only way to deal is to blame me... .