Does a BPD "NEED" sex?

[borderdude]

... in the same way as non's do, or do they substitute sexuality for something else, like intimazy , control , etc, what do you say?

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[formflier]

... in the same way as non's do, or do they substitute sexuality for something else, like intimazy , control , etc, what do you say?

Hard to know for sure.  I'm sure that some do and some don't.

Best to stay away from generalizing.  BPD traits are a continuum from those that are extremely high functioning and might not actually gain a diagnosis if evaluated to those that are low functioning... .and barely able to function in public.

Why do you ask? 

[borderdude]

... in the same way as non's do, or do they substitute sexuality for something else, like intimazy , control , etc, what do you say?

Hard to know for sure.  I'm sure that some do and some don't.

Best to stay away from generalizing.  BPD traits are a continuum from those that are extremely high functioning and might not actually gain a diagnosis if evaluated to those that are low functioning... .and barely able to function in public.

Why do you ask? 

Arrested mental development 3yo, I do not think they have the same application for sex... .

[enlighten me]

With my exs there seemed to be a need. I noticed that with my exgf it was more to do with her and afterwards she was a lot calmer. This could be due to the release of oxytocin.

I also felt that my exs mixed up sex and love.

A lot gets said also about sex being used for control or just to be wanted in a validating way.

[mywifecrazy]

One night in the middle of my divorce in a heated argument with my uBPDxw I told her that she never loved my. She was screaming and had a moment where she let her guard down and gave me a glimpse of her internal struggle. She screamed at me that SHE FELT LOVE WAS HAVING SOMEONE SEXUALLY DESIRE HER but she followed it up with I KNOW THAT THATS NOT WHAT LOVE IS BUT THATS WHAT ITS LIKE FOR HER.

Very Strange!

MWC... .

[borderdude]

One night in the middle of my divorce in a heated argument with my uBPDxw I told her that she never loved my. She was screaming and had a moment where she let her guard down and gave me a glimpse of her internal struggle. She screamed at me that SHE FELT LOVE WAS HAVING SOMEONE SEXUALLY DESIRE HER but she followed it up with I KNOW THAT THATS NOT WHAT LOVE IS BUT THATS WHAT ITS LIKE FOR HER.

Very Strange!

MWC... .

At least she had averness to some extent, much better than most.

Mine asked for sex in stressful periods to calm down , but was the reason she she needed sex for sake of sex ? ! Hard to say.

[maxsterling]

My fiance once told me she slept with all her friends, men and women, because she thought it built friendships.  She also says she used sex to self harm.

[borderdude]

My fiance once told me she slept with all her friends, men and women, because she thought it built friendships.  She also says she used sex to self harm.

Was she sex addicted?, to much acting out might give a mental low or depressive state ... .not an expert.

[enlighten me]

Another reason that I have seen given is that they have a low self image so think it is expected of them.

My exgf told me she had slept with over 200 men. Yes I know massive red flag. I think her reasoning behind this was that she had low self esteem so if men wanted her then she wasn't worthless.

[formflier]

Arrested mental development 3yo, I do not think they have the same application for sex... .

How does this fit into you relationship?  What issues are you working on now? 

Have you had a T describe her mental development to you?

[lemon flower]

my friend says he needs sex to built his self-esteem... .

as we are now seeing eachother as friends only, I have to remind him every time he can not expect to have sex with me, so he will have to look for someone else eventually

he now pushes me constantly to have sex with him in order to "first built up his self-esteem so that he can catch up with a new women afterwards"  

[borderdude]

Arrested mental development 3yo, I do not think they have the same application for sex... .

How does this fit into you relationship?  What issues are you working on now? 

Have you had a T describe her mental development to you?

I do not have a relationship, i simply ask if they really review sex as a 3yo would?

[formflier]

I do not have a relationship, i simply ask if they really review sex as a 3yo would?

I have seen references to "the mind" of a pwBPD being childlike and I can understand where some of those comments are coming from.

What I think is more helpful is to understand that BPD traits fall on a spectrum.  If you are in a r/s with someone that displays those traits then it is helpful to understand where their behaviors fall out on that spectrum.

Anyone out there have thoughts on this?  Or how your view of your r/s changed... .when you changed the way you looked at the pwBPD traits.

[borderdude]

I do not have a relationship, i simply ask if they really review sex as a 3yo would?

I have seen references to "the mind" of a pwBPD being childlike and I can understand where some of those comments are coming from.

What I think is more helpful is to understand that BPD traits fall on a spectrum.  If you are in a r/s with someone that displays those traits then it is helpful to understand where their behaviors fall out on that spectrum.

Anyone out there have thoughts on this?  Or how your view of your r/s changed... .when you changed the way you looked at the pwBPD traits.

The BPD woman I know has no idea of intimazy, just like holding hands is like helding a "dead person", no feedback. It is like a 3yo , only worse ?

I cannot understand how no intimacy can result in "good", sex, other than pornstar-static acting out. It is about trust and connection too , I guess?


If arrested development at 3yo , regarding the mental programs towards connecting? and attachment to other people is true, then a lot of people her need some "radical acceptance" of their partners abilities. Just like you try to make a duck bark.

[Vindi]

mine does... .he Needs to feel wanted and loved, and I think the only way

he can feel this is thru sex... .not thru just being close with me, not with

just love... .but sex seems to seal that deal... .and yes, we have had many heated arguments about this... .esp... .in the past when he would go

into a "rage" then minutes later just want sex... .crazy, sick, yes! its like

sex is the only thing that he sometimes cares about.

Now I set firm boundaries, and thats respect... .if he rages or becomes a jerk... .

sex will be the last thing I think of!

[LilHurt420]

From my research it goes either one way or the other with most BPD's.  Either they need sex (but like you said it's about something else... .control, feeding their ego, etc)... .or they're non sexual.

Mine needs it.  So much so he spent the first 7 years of our relationship cheating on me.  Not for lack of what I wasn't doing, but for his ego (it made him feel big and bad to sleep with so many women).  He claims he was a sex addict but is no longer one (without treatment or anything). 

He "has" to have sex with me all the time though (and for hours at a time even on a week night) in order for things to be "ok."  He used to get mad and rage if at 2am I was falling asleep after working all day and having to be up at 6am again.  He's gotten better about that now that I'm pregnant though.

[waverider]

Arrested mental development 3yo, I do not think they have the same application for sex... .

How does this fit into you relationship?  What issues are you working on now? 

Have you had a T describe her mental development to you?

I do not have a relationship, i simply ask if they really review sex as a 3yo would?

This is one of the problem of comparing pwBPD with children, as it can be taken too literally that they are the same, they are not, they are adults. It is only their emotional development that can be retarded. Their experiences thoughts and desires are much the same as any adult. The difference is their ability to regulate the emotions that these experiences bring is underdeveloped, hence the consequences and applications can be damaging.

Sex can be used to gain approval or control, hence used out of context or at least not kept within appropriate emotional boundaries. The desires themselves are very much adult.

In short they have a childs emotional skills attempting to control adult thoughts.

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife has a very healthy sex drive, which I enjoyed tremendously!    It wasn't until recently that I realized in the last year or so, she used it to feed her own ego, and used it for control to get me to comply (she would abuse me, then give me the silent treatment, then I would cave and apologize for "my behavior" even though it was hers.  She would then demand more from me (i.e. cooking three times a week when she works from home), I would become more compliant to her demands thinking she must be right to be that mad at me), and that's how she apologized and we would make "amends".  That was a hard one for me to come to.  Not going to lie, it was still amazing though!  

[Stalwart]

To start the conversation I would say that referring to any borderline female acting like a 3 yo with regards to sexual conduct is absurd and probably borders more on the lines of extremely disrespectful. Depending on the character I suppose some people can act childish but this is generally a misunderstanding of behavior than a fact that a person with this illness acts like a 3 yo sexually and I really question the genuine quality of this question as a result of a situation that you're familiar with.

All borderlines react and act differently, to think there is a norm or standard to anyone’s actions as compared to another’s' is also incorrect. Depending on levels of functioning, co-morbid influences with other factor B disorders, experience and situational awareness determines a person's individual behaviors.

Many consider a borderline person uses sex in the earlier stage of a relationship to entrap a person and on a personal level it may be interpreted that way but generally it's my understanding that at that time and during that initial situation the person was responding to an emotional stimuli, more often than not that same emotional high and awareness of the other partner changes in their perception and so affects the sexual relationship in a more negative way as time progresses. I wouldn’t rule out manipulation altogether in some cases but I don’t believe it is the normal intent of most borderlines. They react strongly to the emotional stimuli and without much thought behind whether it is a good situation or not and don’t  totally understand most times what they’re getting into and exactly who the person they have met really is. It’s more that they fantasize a person to high hopes and expectations, only to be let down later when those expectations can’t be met.

In my  personal experience my sex life was affected extremely because before my awareness of this disorder I thought my wife used sex as a tool to either get what she wanted or to be forgiven for bad behavior. That wasn’t actually correct once I became more aware. But responding to that by not wanting to have sex for those reasons was definitely not only a wrong perception but the absolute wrong thing to do for our relationship.

Many female borderlines do directly relate sex to two things, one is love; meaning sex IS love and as a tool to determine that they are wanted and admired (personal validation). Knowing that those needs for validation are so strong in a borderline person will explain why not being attentive to that need is the wrong thing to do. There is nothing childish or child-like about it. It’s just a different perception of what sex represents to them and how they validate themselves and a relationship. So do we, for most men our ego or prowess as a lover is really important to us and validated through sex or our partner’s want to have sex with us. There’s no difference there except their perception of that is far more driven and needed on a constant basis and for some parts concept of what love is differs from some men’s. How many men can justify having sex without love even being a factor in the equation? Most borderline’s don’t, they equate the act of making love as love and what love is.

On the other hand a great many borderline woman do not actually like having sex or sexual contact for several reasons. Childhood abuse is one evident one and the affects that had on them. Morphing their own imperfection like weight or body marks into being far more than it actually is, is another reason for not wanting physical contact or exposure to their spouses . Self-esteem, self-hate and not being worthy of love is another thing that really affects their wants and dislikes of sex (= love). With others and really commonly a monogamous relationship sets them on a course of thinking that they are being used for sexual pleasure by their partner especially when they find very little self-pleasure in the act and this really turns into an escalated opinion of being used or mistreated by their partner sexually. There are as many different scenarios as there are individuals who are sexually active with this disorder.

It has to come down to gaining an individual’s trust so they can truly open up to you with their real thinking about a sexual relationship and what it and you as their partner really means to them. In a lot of cases they believe you should know how they feel, or what they want or enjoy as though you’re some kind of mind reader and justify that by saying, ‘well you’ve had sex with other woman – you should know what to do, or how to do it to please me” when we all know every person has different ways of inducing and experiencing sexual pleasures. It’s really important and totally necessary in a relationship with a borderline person to be able to get beneath the veneer and discover their intimate thinking or you’ll never succeed at meeting their needs or deescalating a situation when it arises that’s related to a sexual relationship. They’re thinking is so varied that no one can assume they know what a person is thinking because more times than enough they’re afraid to open up in case their thinking threatens the relationship. A catch twenty-two that has to be mastered in a relationship for both of the partner’s continued sanity.

It’s also fair to say I think that most borderline woman don’t relate sex with intimacy, spiritual togetherness or the same bonding processes that involves a soulful union in the same way that a ‘normal’ person does. It’s seems more as though they are blocked from considering your sensitivities with regards to sex because they are altogether focused and consumed by their own. That may be thought of as narcissistic or even sociopathic but I don’t find it falls under those extremes and other elements of their behaviors prove those factors incorrect. It’s a simple inability to process your feelings and understand or empathize with them constantly because the need to meet their own emotional wants circumvent yours and they can only function on a limited capacity of emotional intake without either imploding or exploding.

You can take this for what it’s worth to you but really, the mentality and actions of a three-year old with regards to sexual conduct is absurd and only bolsters a stigma about this illness that is already far too misconstrued in society.

Thanks.

[borderdude]

To start the conversation I would say that referring to any borderline female acting like a 3 yo with regards to sexual conduct is absurd and probably borders more on the lines of extremely disrespectful. Depending on the character I suppose some people can act childish but this is generally a misunderstanding of behavior than a fact that a person with this illness acts like a 3 yo sexually and I really question the genuine quality of this question as a result of a situation that you're familiar with.

All borderlines react and act differently, to think there is a norm or standard to anyone’s actions as compared to another’s' is also incorrect. Depending on levels of functioning, co-morbid influences with other factor B disorders, experience and situational awareness determines a person's individual behaviors.

Many consider a borderline person uses sex in the earlier stage of a relationship to entrap a person and on a personal level it may be interpreted that way but generally it's my understanding that at that time and during that initial situation the person was responding to an emotional stimuli, more often than not that same emotional high and awareness of the other partner changes in their perception and so affects the sexual relationship in a more negative way as time progresses. I wouldn’t rule out manipulation altogether in some cases but I don’t believe it is the normal intent of most borderlines. They react strongly to the emotional stimuli and without much thought behind whether it is a good situation or not and don’t  totally understand most times what they’re getting into and exactly who the person they have met really is. It’s more that they fantasize a person to high hopes and expectations, only to be let down later when those expectations can’t be met.

In my  personal experience my sex life was affected extremely because before my awareness of this disorder I thought my wife used sex as a tool to either get what she wanted or to be forgiven for bad behavior. That wasn’t actually correct once I became more aware. But responding to that by not wanting to have sex for those reasons was definitely not only a wrong perception but the absolute wrong thing to do for our relationship.

Many female borderlines do directly relate sex to two things, one is love; meaning sex IS love and as a tool to determine that they are wanted and admired (personal validation). Knowing that those needs for validation are so strong in a borderline person will explain why not being attentive to that need is the wrong thing to do. There is nothing childish or child-like about it. It’s just a different perception of what sex represents to them and how they validate themselves and a relationship. So do we, for most men our ego or prowess as a lover is really important to us and validated through sex or our partner’s want to have sex with us. There’s no difference there except their perception of that is far more driven and needed on a constant basis and for some parts concept of what love is differs from some men’s. How many men can justify having sex without love even being a factor in the equation? Most borderline’s don’t, they equate the act of making love as love and what love is.

On the other hand a great many borderline woman do not actually like having sex or sexual contact for several reasons. Childhood abuse is one evident one and the affects that had on them. Morphing their own imperfection like weight or body marks into being far more than it actually is, is another reason for not wanting physical contact or exposure to their spouses . Self-esteem, self-hate and not being worthy of love is another thing that really affects their wants and dislikes of sex (= love). With others and really commonly a monogamous relationship sets them on a course of thinking that they are being used for sexual pleasure by their partner especially when they find very little self-pleasure in the act and this really turns into an escalated opinion of being used or mistreated by their partner sexually. There are as many different scenarios as there are individuals who are sexually active with this disorder.

It has to come down to gaining an individual’s trust so they can truly open up to you with their real thinking about a sexual relationship and what it and you as their partner really means to them. In a lot of cases they believe you should know how they feel, or what they want or enjoy as though you’re some kind of mind reader and justify that by saying, ‘well you’ve had sex with other woman – you should know what to do, or how to do it to please me” when we all know every person has different ways of inducing and experiencing sexual pleasures. It’s really important and totally necessary in a relationship with a borderline person to be able to get beneath the veneer and discover their intimate thinking or you’ll never succeed at meeting their needs or deescalating a situation when it arises that’s related to a sexual relationship. They’re thinking is so varied that no one can assume they know what a person is thinking because more times than enough they’re afraid to open up in case their thinking threatens the relationship. A catch twenty-two that has to be mastered in a relationship for both of the partner’s continued sanity.

It’s also fair to say I think that most borderline woman don’t relate sex with intimacy, spiritual togetherness or the same bonding processes that involves a soulful union in the same way that a ‘normal’ person does. It’s seems more as though they are blocked from considering your sensitivities with regards to sex because they are altogether focused and consumed by their own. That may be thought of as narcissistic or even sociopathic but I don’t find it falls under those extremes and other elements of their behaviors prove those factors incorrect. It’s a simple inability to process your feelings and understand or empathize with them constantly because the need to meet their own emotional wants circumvent yours and they can only function on a limited capacity of emotional intake without either imploding or exploding.

You can take this for what it’s worth to you but really, the mentality and actions of a three-year old with regards to sexual conduct is absurd and only bolsters a stigma about this illness that is already far too misconstrued in society.

Thanks.

Arrested development at 3yo is a part of the criteria or it is not ? Whatever it is only a part of their mental capasity regarding attachment, bonding , relationship , which are affected.

Does this mean they approach everyhing from a 3yo perspective? , absolutely not.

If you disrespect the question disrespect also the critera, I did not invent it , and was perplexed by this low age.

Since sex is heavily integrated with attachment, bonding , relationship and not least a part of the subjects identity, I would say this question is valid , if you gonna enter a RS with a BPD.



Here is what I think a 3yo will review:

- Non sexual beings

- If they are being abused do they know? (later in life they will feel the abuse for sure)

- Since they do not know about sex, will they misunderstand it as "love", I think yes (ask a person abused as a child about this, they will report about being "loved".

- Will they use this as getting closer/attach to a caregiver , or feel they meake the caregiver happy ? ... maybe.


If the 3yo is in a adult body , it has to deal with adult feelings with a mind of a child, at least those wich has to do with love, attachment.

[borderdude]

My two BPD exes did not show intimazy, they had absolutely no notion about what is was! No touching , no helding hands even ... .(actually less of what to expect from a 3yo).

It was all about being a supply of emotional identity, mirroring.

Sexuality for them was something for control or coping with stress.

[Mono No Aware]

To start the conversation I would say that referring to any borderline female acting like a 3 yo with regards to sexual conduct is absurd and probably borders more on the lines of extremely disrespectful. Depending on the character I suppose some people can act childish but this is generally a misunderstanding of behavior than a fact that a person with this illness acts like a 3 yo sexually and I really question the genuine quality of this question as a result of a situation that you're familiar with.

Stalwart, your entire post is an excellent body of work. Thank you, it greatly educated me.

Many female borderlines do directly relate sex to two things, one is love; meaning sex IS love and as a tool to determine that they are wanted and admired (personal validation).

... .clip... .

On the other hand a great many borderline woman do not actually like having sex or sexual contact for several reasons. Childhood abuse is one evident one and the affects that had on them. Morphing their own imperfection like weight or body marks into being far more than it actually is, is another reason for not wanting physical contact or exposure to their spouses .

Wow. My uBPDw actually vacillates between these types.

In fact, it's a major cause and effect of cyclical dysregulation:

Her ":)o Not Want" mode works to keep her frigid to me for weeks on end, cold-shouldering my tender advances, until her sexual frustration reaches a boiling point that she emotionally cannot handle and blows up with the usual BPD outrageous behaviors... .including accusations of me not wanting her which indicates  that she's back to "I Need It To Feel Loved" mode. Usually we end up having terrible sex to finish up a long night of wild dysregulation, then good sex a day or two later.

And then she slowly slips more and more into Do Not Want mode as her BPD-driven "negative-slanted imagination" gnaws over magnified imperfections, and the cycle repeats.

So, I have always understood the transitions between the modes to be closely paralleled with both the classic Splitting and Push-Pull patterns. But from what I am reading here, some women (and probably men too) with BPD tend to stay on one extreme or another, sexually speaking.

[borderdude]

If good sex meaning showing intimazy and beeing vulnerable to some degree, is't this bad logic when you are  narcisist, and review these states as a weakness?

Acting is acting , there is no doubt an adult intelligent BPD person can "act"

as the best pornstar, but to connect this to intimazy ?

So if a BPD do approach intimazy, bonding , attachment from a perspective of a 3yo, it is completley different when it comes to sexuality?

What shall I deduct from this ?

[Mono No Aware]

If good sex meaning showing intimazy and beeing vulnerable to some degree, is't this bad logic when you are  narcisist, and review these states as a weakness?

Acting is acting , there is no doubt an adult intelligent BPD person can "act"

as the best pornstar, but to connect this to intimazy ?

So if a BPD do approach intimazy, bonding , attachment from a perspective of a 3yo, it is completley different when it comes to sexuality?

What shall I deduct from this ?

First, just avoid using the word "logic" altogether. BPD is all about emotions overriding logic.

Next, as recommended by others, get over the 3yr old comparison. It's an analogy with very narrow application to BPD because this disorder is not a narrow set of specific behaviors - it is a kalideoscope of behavior patterns that will vary wildly not just from person to person but also for one person depending on their current emotional and physical state.

Their "approach" to intimacy, bonding, and attachment, as well as sexuality, will vary from demented 3-year old to normal adult.

You mentioned you have experienced two BPD women who did not like sex. In cases like this, as well as examining their behavior you must examine your own. The BPD cycle is a dynamic that is greatly influenced by the reactions and behaviors of the pwBPD's emotionally important people (lovers/spouses, friends, family). So, what behaviors of yours may have contributed to the cold-shoulders?

[Caredverymuch]

... in the same way as non's do, or do they substitute sexuality for something else, like intimazy , control , etc, what do you say?

Although the sex was absolutely incredible, I felt from early on that it was used as a hook more than an adult mutual desire. 

Whenever my expBPD felt he might be "losing me"  he would bring the sex card on strong. I recall that he mentioned he had read books on the female anatomy and how to please a woman, which I felt was odd. 

I knew, being a healthcare professional, that he took meds to achieve and keep an erection. He would act incredibly proud of his performance, which again I knew was augmented, and once I found his prescription, I actually confronted him in kindness about it.  He said he had to take meds bc he was so emotionally detached in his r/s- the marriage he left for a short time when we were together, than went back to after we split. 

As our r/s went on, and we grew much closer, his ED was very apparent. And I could always tell that he would know it was going to happen bc once it did, he would immediately try to take control in the pleasing role, as if the issue was not occurring. And he would go to great lengths to be sure I was satisfied. But, he looked like he was very much in a role during those moments. Performing.  I recall looking at him and thinking he looked like a child in a sandbox, that sort of very non adult look and body posture.

He was almost 10 yrs younger than me, in his late thirties at the time.   I got repeated    about his ED.  Now I understand the correlation to BPD.

He also watched hard core porn. Alone.  Very unlike who he was to me. I found that VERY odd.

For him, sex was a control tool and his ED was very clearly a symptom of much else.

[MissyM]

So, I have always understood the transitions between the modes to be closely paralleled with both the classic Splitting and Push-Pull patterns. But from what I am reading here, some women (and probably men too) with BPD tend to stay on one extreme or another, sexually speaking.

My dBPDh was sexually anorexic (amazing to actually get that diagnosis and not asexual) and then switched to sexually addicted/compulsive.  It was very confusing to me but sounds like it is related to the BPD (and some medication he was taking seemed to switch him to compulsive).

He was almost 10 yrs younger than me, in his late thirties at the time.   I got repeated  Red Flag about his ED. 

  Interestingly enough, since he has been doing sex addiction recovery and working on intimacy it seems to have cured his ED.  When he is able to be emotionally present, he doesn't have ED.

[borderdude]

... in the same way as non's do, or do they substitute sexuality for something else, like intimazy , control , etc, what do you say?

Although the sex was absolutely incredible, I felt from early on that it was used as a hook more than an adult mutual desire. 

Whenever my expBPD felt he might be "losing me"  he would bring the sex card on strong. I recall that he mentioned he had read books on the female anatomy and how to please a woman, which I felt was odd. 

I knew, being a healthcare professional, that he took meds to achieve and keep an erection. He would act incredibly proud of his performance, which again I knew was augmented, and once I found his prescription, I actually confronted him in kindness about it.  He said he had to take meds bc he was so emotionally detached in his r/s- the marriage he left for a short time when we were together, than went back to after we split. 

As our r/s went on, and we grew much closer, his ED was very apparent. And I could always tell that he would know it was going to happen bc once it did, he would immediately try to take control in the pleasing role, as if the issue was not occurring. And he would go to great lengths to be sure I was satisfied. But, he looked like he was very much in a role during those moments. Performing.  I recall looking at him and thinking he looked like a child in a sandbox, that sort of very non adult look and body posture.

He was almost 10 yrs younger than me, in his late thirties at the time.   I got repeated    about his ED.  Now I understand the correlation to BPD.

He also watched hard core porn. Alone.  Very unlike who he was to me. I found that VERY odd.

For him, sex was a control tool and his ED was very clearly a symptom of much else.

Get your point, he acted but was not there for you as a person ,present, close, ... .it is about intimazy... .my BPD could not even held my hand, no touching, love, intimazy was all inbedded in sexuality. I was i receiver for her mirroring only.

[waverider]

  Interestingly enough, since he has been doing sex addiction recovery and working on intimacy it seems to have cured his ED.  When he is able to be emotionally present, he doesn't have ED.

I think being in the moment, essentially mindfulness, has a lot to do with this. If your thinking too far ahead or about peripheral things, that's when it causes problems.