toddler called

[momtara]

My older toddler just called me, crying.  Said ":)addy yelled at me."  He said it was because daddy told him not to go upstairs and he did.  He seemed to calm down quickly.  I was going to get off the phone and he said, ":)on't go."  This is all a lot of verbiage from him when he's usually not very talkative.  At least my ex dialed on his behalf (my toddler can't do it on his own).  I guess he asked to call mommy.

It seems ok to me that his dad yelled at him for not listening.  I'm not so concerned, but I am wondering whether to text ex as a followup (like 'is he ok now?' or if that's intruding or engaging. 

More than one therapist has warned me that as they get older, things might get harder.  If they are only upset with him because he's more of a disciplinarian than I am, that's ok.  If he is abusive, that's another story.  I guess there's no way to tell except see how they are when they come home.

[Rubies]

Stay out of it.  Your child needs to learn there is Mommy time and there is Daddy time.   Daddy will certainly use your distressed child to yank your chain.  You need to get rid of that chain.

[momtara]

yeah, good point.

my ex did end up texting me about something else.  i asked about that incident and he said it was because he forced our toddler to talk to me on the phone when he didn't want to.      Er, sorry I asked.  The way things twist in his mind is amazing.

[Turkish]

yeah, good point.

my ex did end up texting me about something else.  i asked about that incident and he said it was because he forced our toddler to talk to me on the phone when he didn't want to.      Er, sorry I asked.  The way things twist in his mind is amazing.

That is weird. This sounds like a case of toddler triangulation. I think it's normal child behavior though I can see how it might be worrisome considering his father. It's understandable to be worried, but considering how quickly the emotions of young children switch, he was likely ok not long after. S4.7 threw a massive fit tonight. I got angry and put him on a time out (a concept I am starting to rethink due to it possibly being invalidating for an emotionally charged child, not to mention abandonment). He kept crying, almost screaming. I finally went and picked him up. 20 mins later, he was right as rain  and was even calm enough to do his homework.

[momtara]

Yup.

I do time outs too.

[Swiggle]

Most of my posts on here have been about the mother of my step-kids who we believe is uBPD. Reading this made me think of my ex.

My T met my ex once when he came with me to therapy. After meeting him and learning about our marriage and relationship she is convinced he has a narcissistic personality disorder. I read up on it a year or so ago and it all fit his personality. I could write a book on the emotional toll it took on me and the complete isolation I felt.

When we were first divorced we recycled (I think that is what it is called here?) we continued being emotionally and physically involved for almost a year after the divorce. Once I finally put a stop to it he was crazy out of control with how I was treated. I think he would cause problems with the kids or treat them certain ways because it was the only thing that got any reaction from me. There was always some sort of drama with my DD 11 and DS 61/2 when they were with Dad. Most of the issues involved my daughter and of course she would call me or tell me what was going on. In the beginning I would listen to her and usually I would bring it up to dad as a hey fyi this happened, DD is feeling this way how can we help her. It never went anywhere and I always ended up frustrated, so I stopped bringing it to his attention. Oddly enough I’ve noticed that we haven’t had any of these issues for quite some time, it’s like he stop using the kids to hurt me when I didn’t give him the power. The kids still get what they need because we are open about things and I listen, validate and help them think of strategies to deal with dad on their own.

I also had a talk with my daughter about calling the other parent when something didn’t go her way while she was with the other parent. Like if she was with me and was punished for something or didn’t like something I did or said, she would call dad and complain. She would do the same when she was with him. I realized that this wasn’t fair to me or her dad. I explained to her that while her feelings are valid and she has every right to feel something I explained to her how it made me feel when she would call me while with dad and I couldn’t help or how it made me feel if she was mad at me and called dad. Of course she knows that if it is something big she can talk to either of us anytime. It helped, I feel like she stopped almost pitting us against each other. I didn’t want her to learn and utilize that skill.

Momtara, my ex used to do the same thing. Whenever the kids were upset or crying he always said it was because my kids didn’t want to talk to me. As they got a little older I had a convo with them giving them permission to call or not to call me knowing that I wouldn’t be upset. I let them know that sometimes they get busy having such a good time with dad that they might forget or not want to stop what they are doing and that was ok sometimes. That if I really needed to talk to them I would call them, taking the stress of them needing to remember off their shoulders. I am so confident in “my” relationship with my kids that there isn’t anything he can do to change that and I think it drives him CRAZY.

[momtara]

Wow, mtrip.  Your situation sounds very similar to mine except my kids are younger.  While my husband and I have not stayed physically involved after the divorce, we didn't completely emotionally detatch either (we have been divorced 10 months but there have been times I've hoped he was getting better, so sometimes I let him hang out in the house for a while when he picked the kids up, etc., and he constantly asks if we might ever get back together and I just say it's inappropriate to talk about right now.  But I used to have a smidgeon of hope since he's in therapy.)  He takes any time we agree on things and have calm periods as a sign we are getting back together, and when I start to set firm boundaries, he ramps up his behavior and yes he engages and scares me in front of the kids.  After some troubling behavior on his part I have started setting firmer boundaries and that's probably why some of this is happening.  Thanks for your input - always good to have an idea of the road ahead. There are a lot of people here whose spouses have moved on to other relationships, so I feel a bit alone in navigating the waters of a high-functioning but sometimes triggered/scary spouse who really wants my attention (or sometimes just wants to get back at me) and it is a bit confusing.  I want us to co-parent harmoniously but if I loosen a boundary, he wants to keep loosening it.

[ennie]

The scenario you mention makes me think of my SD14 who is incredibly enmeshed with her BPD mom and for many years was "splitting" and disassociating her experiences at each home.  So she would "hate" daddy at mom's house, have no awareness of having felt that way while with dad.  She could switch feelings on a dime.  It was not that she was lying--she was changing feelings. 

My concern about that was that she was having a hard time developing an integral sense of self. 

She is way more able to be her own person now, and there are several things we have done that have helped her.  First, she has seen a counselor who is an excellent child development person with experience dealing with BPD.  Second, I put a lot of energy into communicating with "I" statements, insisting that she tell me what she feels not just using blaming words when she is upset with me.  Because I am SM, it is less threatening and scary to say, "Ennie, I feel really angry at you" than it is to say this to a parent.  I am very careful when I am angry to say, "I am angry, that does NOT mean that you are bad."  and "I love you even when I am angry at you."

I think it is very common for kids with scary parents to enmesh with them, to identify so strongly with the feelings of that parent that they literally cannot distinguish between the parent's feelings and their own.  But my experience is that providing the opposite--total respect for the child as their own person--can really shift that for a kid. 

BTW, SD10 (who was 2.5 when dad left mom and has lived in two homes equally most of her life) does not have this issue at all, and is very clear and aware of her experience, as distinct from that of her parents. 

I do think it is important to provide support for a child who is starting to do this.  For SD14, though she is really working through this, it is still very confusing for her to distinguish between her feelings and others. She has a hard time noticing if she is getting sick, or how she feels in her body in general.  She has a hard time knowing how she feels when stressed.  We work hard at helping her say what she feels, and she is really getting there.  but it is a lot of work . She says she worries that she is going to totally give up who she is for friends who are in distress, she has to be extra aware about that.  Sounds like you are on top of it, and supportive. 

So I suggest working at your house to help your son know it is okay if he is upset with you or mad at you or has hurt feelings when you tell him to do something or get angry.  It does not mean he is bad, you are just angry.  He can help out by listening, or not (whatever he contributed), but he can feel how he feels, too.  If he is angry or sad, he can say, "I am angry" or "I feel sad."  With SD10, she got this from the time she was small, and has never lost a sense of who she is in the thick of it. 

[Aussie JJ]

Not an easy one,

Regarding time outs Turkish, I do them with my son.  I explain that when he does something that hurts feelings its not good and we both have to think about it.  I had him earlier today ask to go to the park, I said we cant just yet because we have to have lunch, straight after lunch.  My almost 3 year old told me we had to have a time out, I had been bad... .

So I had a time out, he sat with me and after 30 seconds I asked why are we having a time out, I got told, Daddy didn't want to go to the park.  I need to go to the park. 

I thought to myself, not going to invalidate this on him.  Healthy behaviour to tell me when I hurt his feelings.  So I asked if we could have lunch at the park.  He thought it was a great idea.  Compromise, he has a better set of boundaries and behaviours than my ex here. 

Most concerning thing for me, I got told he has to have tie outs when he hits mummy or bites mummy.  I know she is trying but I am worried about this one. 


AJJ. 

[Turkish]

Not an easy one,

Regarding time outs Turkish, I do them with my son.  I explain that when he does something that hurts feelings its not good and we both have to think about it.  I had him earlier today ask to go to the park, I said we cant just yet because we have to have lunch, straight after lunch.  My almost 3 year old told me we had to have a time out, I had been bad... .

So I had a time out, he sat with me and after 30 seconds I asked why are we having a time out, I got told, Daddy didn't want to go to the park.  I need to go to the park. 

I thought to myself, not going to invalidate this on him.  Healthy behaviour to tell me when I hurt his feelings.  So I asked if we could have lunch at the park.  He thought it was a great idea.  Compromise, he has a better set of boundaries and behaviours than my ex here. 

Most concerning thing for me, I got told he has to have tie outs when he hits mummy or bites mummy.  I know she is trying but I am worried about this one. 

AJJ. 

That's kind of funny your toddler put you on a time out, but it sounds like you handled it very well!.

Did your Ex tell you those things? I agree that it is very worrisome... Does he do anything like that with you? My Ex told me this morning that D2 has been into scratching her, her mom (who babysits them), and S4 when she is told "no" about certain things. I have noticed this a little bit, but not enough to be concerned (though she did bite me last weekend when I gemtly told her to not eat popcorm off the theater floor). It sounds like there may be some anger going on there. Raising the second one now, I'll say that some of this sounds normal, but it's definitely something to keep an eye on.

[livednlearned]

momtara, do you have a clear sense about the difference between what it means for your ex to be a disciplinarian and what it means to be abusive? I didn't have that clear in my marriage. I'm curious if you are struggling with this too. I ended up realizing that because N/BPDx was sometimes abusive (yelling at S13 about minor things), even stern discipline felt frightening for S13. Once a parent flips out, most kids tend to start contorting their whole selves around the fear of that behavior.

That's why what ennie wrote is critically important to understand:

My concern about that was that she was having a hard time developing an integral sense of self.

If you can understand what this means, it will give your kids a profound advantage dealing with a disordered parent. I know you're worried about something bad happening to your kids, but it often sounds like you're worried about an episode or isolated event. But it's the regular everyday stuff -- including what isn't being said, that can really damage a kid.

I think it is very common for kids with scary parents to enmesh with them, to identify so strongly with the feelings of that parent that they literally cannot distinguish between the parent's feelings and their own.  But my experience is that providing the opposite--total respect for the child as their own person--can really shift that for a kid.

[/quote]
This is the real stuff right here. If you get this, you'll start to see these situations with your kids through a very different lens. I used to try and soothe or comfort my son by telling him that things were going to be ok when he was upset. Or variations on that theme. Then I learned to help S13 figure out how to soothe himself and recover from negative feelings. So I would say, "How did you feel when dad said that?" or "You must've felt mad at him. Why do you think he did that? I can tell you are so upset, and now that we have talked, you seem to be feeling better. I'm glad you felt you could tell me how you feel." When the alienation stuff started to happen, and S13 stopped talking -- but I could tell from body language and his mood that he was troubled by something -- I started to say, "You seem sad. Your shoulders are down and you seem to want to be left alone. Sometimes I feel that way when I'm sad too. If you feel you want someone to listen, I'm here whenever you're ready." At the peak of the alienation, S13 would talk about things in parallel. He might describe something in a book, or on TV, or things going on with friends. I stopped trying to solve the situation or tell him what to do, or things I might've done in the past. I started to get him to figure out how he was feeling, and point out when he was managing his feelings in a healthy way.

Normal parenting didn't work with S13. I had to look at every incident in terms of his emotional experience. He used to talk about not wanting to live, and he had a lot of somatic complaints -- stomach aches, headaches, very sensitive to scratches and would use body aches and pains to communicate feelings. He was in pretty bad shape for a while. I think boys who have disordered dads might be more susceptible to depression, turning their aggressive and angry feeling internally. Depression looks different in young boys than it does in adults. In S13, it was somatic complaints, and isolating himself from groups, even kids who liked him.

What you're trying to do, like ennie said, is help them develop an integral sense of self. That means helping them understand their feelings.

Time outs might be scary for your kids. They already have a disordered parent who seems unstable and yells at them. You're their one stable parent, so to be separated from you for bad behavior might instill a sense of shame and fear of abandonment in them, and they're probably picking up on that stuff already from their dad.

Bill Eddy's book Don't Alienate the Kids is only partly about alienation - mostly it's about understanding how to raise kids when one parent is disordered. That book gave me an epiphany that changed how I interacted with S13, and I think it was more powerful in many ways that what S13 learned in therapy.

Emotions have a logic of their own. Once you start to get a feel for what that logic is, parenting becomes completely different. The other ways work if you're going for compliance/obedience, but I think our kids might need some extra help.

People are going to yell at your kids throughout their lives, or be nasty, and their peers are going to be mean to them. You can use the stuff with your ex to help guide your kids through these experience and help them develop resilience. Then, when someone says something awful or hurtful, it won't change how they feel about who they are.