Marriage Counseling

[Indyan]

This is to continue this topic: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=233545.50

"he re-wrote our whole relationship in his mind, too. He told me that I'd "forced" him into marrying him (huh? We were engaged for almost a year and he picked the time of engagement and date for the wedding!), "forced" him into the life we had: 2 kids, a house, a stable relationhship. Once he started railing that he'd spent his "whole life!" pleasing everyone else, doing the "right thing" and denying his own desires, I realized two things: 1). He was really talking about his BPD Mom and her control over him (I think he transferred his rage at her which was always tamped down, onto me as his wife), and 2). He was trying to justify his affair, which he knew was wrong. Sometimes I felt like he was poking his Mom in the eye with this girlfriend (he would fight about having that girlfriend on the phone with her!)."

Thanks Rapt Reader for your long message, it's very encouraging.

EXACTLY. He told the T and I exactly this. And it seems like a big weight off his chest (onto me ). He did say himself that it all started with his mum, with whom he wasn't allowed to talk, to move or to think, and who made him feel that he never did enough. The T tried to tell him that he "applied" this onto me now, but BPDh is too much into being a victim, and breaking free (violently).

So your husband also told you those things?

Mine even said to me that he felt forced to join me when I invited as friends... .that's so distorted.

He was down, after his ex refused recycling (I figured out), I felt sorry for him as of course he was the victim, and he talked in length about how bad and evil the girl was. And then, even the baby was MY choice (!). That's sick, really, yuck.

Thank you Takingandsending, what you say makes a lot of sense.

I should never allow him talk to me in an hurtful manner. Especially that if I want to reply to it, he refuses!

I told him this is extremely violent: vomiting all his garbage and hate, and not even giving me the "right" to say a word in return... .How much I dislike all this... .   

I never knew that someone who showed so much love could hurt so much too... .he did (with his mother) and it's as if he wanted to make me feel exactly what he felt as a child with her. How weird.

And I forgot to say that I phoned the therapist tonight.

He told me that BPDh sent him a veeeeery loong message, complaining about me, poor him, poor him, poor him. Saying I "accused him of having BPD and NPD".

Therapist said he told him "You cannot be both, it's either one or the other" (, I guess BPDh was hoping that T would tell him "you suffer from none"

Then BPDh told him "My therapist is not available this week, could I see you instead" (!)

That annoyed my therapist, even if he knows all about this behaviour (he even talks about this in one of his videos). He told me he was going to answer something like "If you want to keep the position of the victim, stay with your therapist, but if you want to see me we'll do work on a regular basis."

I found it funny in fact.

He sent a message to the therapist that tells how persecuted he feels  grin

That's perfect!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Rapt Reader]

"he re-wrote our whole relationship in his mind, too. He told me that I'd "forced" him into marrying him (huh? We were engaged for almost a year and he picked the time of engagement and date for the wedding!), "forced" him into the life we had: 2 kids, a house, a stable relationhship. Once he started railing that he'd spent his "whole life!" pleasing everyone else, doing the "right thing" and denying his own desires, I realized two things: 1). He was really talking about his BPD Mom and her control over him (I think he transferred his rage at her which was always tamped down, onto me as his wife), and 2). He was trying to justify his affair, which he knew was wrong. Sometimes I felt like he was poking his Mom in the eye with this girlfriend (he would fight about having that girlfriend on the phone with her!)."

Thanks Rapt Reader for your long message, it's very encouraging.

So your husband also told you those things?

Hi, Indyan... .Yeah; he told me that I'd forced him, and at times (during those months of him still having the affair and talking to me about it as it was happening   ) he also said that I'd "tricked" him into marrying me, too. Was very bizarre, since I'd stopped asking if he was thinking of marriage after we'd been dating about a year, and was actually seeing other guys here and there for lunch and minor stuff in order to hedge my bets with him in case he never asked me to get engaged.

After about 6 months of that, he proposed out of the blue and I was actually shocked because I'd given up on him. We then got married almost a year later because he said he'd "always wanted a Spring wedding... ." which was hilarious because it was merely a way to push the date further ahead from the Fall wedding I'd figured on after the Spring proposal. How I "forced" or "tricked" him into all of that, I really couldn't figure out 

And like in your case, after he got to the place where he realized that his anger and belligerence was really directed at his Mom (and not me actually), he was relieved and thoughtful about figuring it out. Things didn't get better for us right away, but that realization was a turning point for him, and we were able to work on our marriage and make things come back together. I would say that we are happily married; every couple has problems--BPD or not--and ours are pretty minor at this point... .

And I forgot to say that I phoned the therapist tonight.

He told me that BPDh sent him a veeeeery loong message, complaining about me, poor him, poor him, poor him. Saying I "accused him of having BPD and NPD".

Therapist said he told him "You cannot be both, it's either one or the other" (, I guess BPDh was hoping that T would tell him "you suffer from none"

Then BPDh told him "My therapist is not available this week, could I see you instead" (!)

That annoyed my therapist, even if he knows all about this behaviour (he even talks about this in one of his videos). He told me he was going to answer something like "If you want to keep the position of the victim, stay with your therapist, but if you want to see me we'll do work on a regular basis."

I found it funny in fact.

He sent a message to the therapist that tells how persecuted he feels  

That's perfect!

That is funny, and I think it's great that you can let the Therapist be the voice of reason with him... .I would say to keep going to Therapy, and let the Therapist work on helping him gain the insights and healing that he needs to get in a possible recovery. If you can understand that his troubles aren't really you, you can try to not take his fuming and hurtful statements personally; detach, and work on yourself and your own well-being and let him work on his. You never know where all of this can lead... .

[formflier]

I agree... .please keep going to MC and individual work on your part.

Let the therapist guide you in frequency of meeting as a couple and how much individual work.

I really think your experience is progress for you... .

[Indyan]

Thanks to both of you, I'm amazed to hear encouragement when everybody around keeps telling me "protect yourself, run away from him".

I don't know though if MC makes any sense at this stage, he's too crazy.

The T told me "he's paranoid, he's convinced that the whole world's against him."

He texts me every evening asking "Can I have news about baby PLEASE?", last night he even woke me up at almost midnight.

I haven't answered any of those messages (Sunday, yesterday and today). I'm sick and tired of FOG.

I thought of contacting his dad to say "I want NC with BPD" and arrange visits with baby with the dad. But then... .I've suffered and complained so much about his invading family, it's absurd.

Then, I could maybe email BPD and send him news about baby once a week or so and not answer any text messages (they stress me a great deal).

I'm seeing the lawyer Thursday, I'm nervous. I'm scared of his reaction afterwards. Will he make use of nuclear weapons (recordings, testimonies of any kind... .)? I'm aware that I cannot live like this, not knowing what's going to happen at the week-end. Also, I suspect that on his lawyer and family's advice, he's not trying for custody at this stage and may be waiting for baby to grow. It scares me.

[formflier]

 

Please let the professionals decide if he "is too crazy" or not.

That will take several sessions.

also... .to help him calm down... .I would send him information about the baby.  Then tell him you will be back in touch on such and such date... and keep that.  Him feeling abandoned will most likely trigger bad things.

What are you going to the lawyer for? 

Please think about the signals you are sending if you back out of MC and go to a lawyer.  That's not a healing... .staying signal.

[Indyan]

also... .to help him calm down... .I would send him information about the baby.  Then tell him you will be back in touch on such and such date... and keep that.  Him feeling abandoned will most likely trigger bad things.

What are you going to the lawyer for? 

Please think about the signals you are sending if you back out of MC and go to a lawyer.  That's not a healing... .staying signal.

I've followed your advice and sent him an email. I tried to be nice, I sent a photo of baby and wrote a few lines about funny things baby did today and how it's going with the nanny. I wished him a good evening and that he could relax a bit. Then I concluded with "I don't answer text messages anymore, they stress me too much. I'd rather give news when I'm in the mood, without feeling forced to do it. I hope you'll understand."

He answered "Thanks a lot, he's gorgeous. I haven't seen him change these last 3 months. As for the rest, I don't mind as long as I get some news every now and then."

So, it's good, he won't bombard me with text messages anymore.

The lawyer is to get a court order on custody. I can't live like this for ever... .dreading each coming week-end. And risking that he might one day take baby and not bring him back... .

The thing is that I fear that he's waiting for baby to grow up to get more custody. The younger, the better for me. I'm pretty sure his lawyer must have told him to wait for baby not to be nursed anymore, things like that.

You think it's not a good idea?

[formflier]

I've followed your advice and sent him an email. I tried to be nice, I sent a photo of baby and wrote a few lines about funny things baby did today and how it's going with the nanny. I wished him a good evening and that he could relax a bit. Then I concluded with "I don't answer text messages anymore, they stress me too much. I'd rather give news when I'm in the mood, without feeling forced to do it. I hope you'll understand."

He answered "Thanks a lot, he's gorgeous. I haven't seen him change these last 3 months. As for the rest, I don't mind as long as I get some news every now and then."

So, it's good, he won't bombard me with text messages anymore.

The lawyer is to get a court order on custody. I can't live like this for ever... .dreading each coming week-end. And risking that he might one day take baby and not bring him back... .

The thing is that I fear that he's waiting for baby to grow up to get more custody. The younger, the better for me. I'm pretty sure his lawyer must have told him to wait for baby not to be nursed anymore, things like that.

You think it's not a good idea?

What are your long term goals?

For you... .and for the relationship. 

Don't focus on what you think is possible or practical... .just be honest about what you want... .  I say it this way because some people get in the mode of this will NEVER happen because... .BPD or some other issue.

Dramatic changes are possible... .but not guaranteed.  It is highly likely that if we get you strong and healthy and following the lessons... .that your r/s with the pwBPD will improve.  There is not way to tell at this point how much.

So... .if you think about your partner and think that you would like a long term r/s... .then I urge you to focus on "staying skills" and sending "staying signals" to your partner.

Sending signals to a pwBPD that you are leaving... .or "abandoning" them is usually not a good thing.  Conflict and drama usually follows.

So... I'm not going to advise you one way or another on going to the lawyer and "doing" something with that.  If you are only going to make sure you are educated and ready... .just in case... that I'm all for that.  But keep that to yourself... .don't tell you partner.

Just so you know... .I'm a committed "stayer"... .so that is where most of my advice is going to come from.

[Indyan]

What are your long term goals?

Don't focus on what you think is possible or practical... .just be honest about what you want... . I say it this way because some people get in the mode of this will NEVER happen because... .BPD or some other issue.

Funny because I only read your question "What are your long term goals?" and went to take my D to school. I was thinking while driving back that "I'm not in the position to have goals nor to wish for anything."

And your next sentence made me smile ":)on't focus on what you think is possible... ."

So what are my goals?

PEACE

More than staying together or not, it's peace. I think I'm litteraly traumatized from seeing him like that on Saturday.

How can I send "staying signals" when he tells me "all he wants is to finish with our r/s"?

He and his family made me feel I was a clinger for weeks on in the summer, it was dreadful.

I can't live with the fear anymore. And since he says he's been forced into our r/s and rubbish like that, I need to protect my child. Of course going for a court order (normally) would mean our r/s is over. But I thought it could be a way to make things clear. He'll know, and I"ll know where we stand, no more pressure on baby, and hopefully no more fear (on both sides). I was hoping that maybe there could still be room for improvement, and maybe a future between us anyway beyond the court order.

But maybe not. He may get into a war. Knowing that presently is in a victim set of mind, he will probably not be satisfied with CO... .etc... .

But I just can't stay like this. I waited and waited, and things are just getting worse in fact.

Then of course, especially if he decides to consult the T (who had a strong positive effect on him last week), maybe he'll behave differently towards me... .

But I can't just be hoping and waiting for him to see the light, as he might not.

[formflier]

How can I send "staying signals" when he tells me "all he wants is to finish with our r/s"?

Focus on reading the lessons... .seeing that there is an "order to the disorder".  That will help you not take those words personally.  It's the disorder speaking... .not him.  In other words... .most likely he is not serious.

I can't live with the fear anymore.

Precisely our point when we urge people to get out of the FOG... .Fear Obligation and Guilt. 

You getting out of the FOG has nothing to do with him... .that is your education... .your mental and physical healthiness that will help that happen.  If you are waiting on him to do things that get you out of living in fear... .then that is most likely not a good plan. 

What do the lessons say about not living in fear?

  I waited and waited, and things are just getting worse in fact.

EXACTLY... .please stop waiting.  Learn the lessons... .live the lessons.  100% control over that... .because it's all about you and your decisions.  You have 100% control over that...

Then of course, especially if he decides to consult the T (who had a strong positive effect on him last week), maybe he'll behave differently towards me... .

But I can't just be hoping and waiting for him to see the light, as he might not.

RIGHT... .don't wait... .! 

Read the part in the lessons about how when you act differently towards a pwBPD... that they dynamic will change.  Because there is an "order to the disorder"... we know... .most likely how he will react.   Real change is possible... .but it doesn't involve waiting on pwBPD traits. 

[Indyan]

Ok thanks, I'm going to have a look at the "lessons".

It's just that... .I don't feel I can bring MORE patience, understanding, positiveness into the (somewhat non-existent) relationship.

Tonight, I'm feeling very down. I feel I can't deal with all this, on my own, with my 2 young kids.

How can I deal with all this?

I know I'm feeling down because of my appointment with the lawyer, tomorrow. I'm lost, confused. I feel forced into doing the opposite of what I wanted... .

I know all this has been pure projection. I'm probably feeling what HE was feeling 3 months ago: fear (up to the point of seeing a lawyer), mistrust, confusion, sadness.

Now he hates me and I have no idea as to WHY?

I can't help wondering again and again what on earth have I done to deserve such treatment?

I never knew life could be so hard.

The worst is, even if he miraculously turned into an angel today, I don't even know whether I'd able to forgive the turmoil I've been through with the kids. And will I ever be able to trust him again?

[Rapt Reader]

Indyan, at those times when I was feeling overwhelmed having to try to understand and deal with the BPD loved ones in my life--and trying to understand and deal with my own feelings--I took a deep breath and started reading The Lessons and everything else on this site that I could get my eyes on. I just basically stopped my own ruminations and reactions to them, and learned all I could about the disorder, how it works, and how I could deal with it all, before regrouping with a clearer head outside of my feelings.

Do you have any books about BPD? I have a library of them at this point, and if you have any available to you, you can read or re-read them to start putting your focus on new directions... .For yourself and your own well-being, and the well-being of your children. Do you have "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie? I still find that book helpful to me for me and my own peace of mind. When I'm overwhelmed by my BPD loved ones (and admittedly, it happens less often at this point), I step back and read something that will help me center my emotions and feel better.

Sometimes just detaching from all the pain, confusion and turmoil can be invigorating, and ends up giving my mind the time and space to figure things out in my own best interests.

Now he hates me and I have no idea as to WHY?

I can't help wondering again and again what on earth have I done to deserve such treatment?

I never knew life could be so hard.

The worst is, even if he miraculously turned into an angel today, I don't even know whether I'd able to forgive the turmoil I've been through with the kids. And will I ever be able to trust him again?

Can you step out of that hamster wheel? Give your emotions a break and curl up with a helpful book or your computer and start taking the space to learn what you need to in order to navigate this stuff? I'm not saying you have to give anything more of yourself to your husband; give more of yourself to you by learning how to deal with everything? Even if you have no books available to you right now (and I highly recommend the one I mentioned above), you can start by clicking on the link I gave you, or the links to the right-hand side of this page. Have a nice cup of tea or coffee or hot chocolate and make some time for yourself and your well-being 

[Indyan]

You know Rapt Reader, during the summer, I did what you've described: take care of myself, distanciate myself from HIS emotions and chaos, enjoy things I like doing and people I love seeing, read (lots and lots) about BPD (especially Walking on Eggshells that helped me tremendously).

It's just... .I'm feeling exhausted (baby still awakes me twice a night), with little immediate support on my everyday life (my parents live away), and with little time to "recover" from PBD weekly visits.

Tonight, I got a text message from his dad already planning for taking baby away on Saturday.

I'm not being asked for my opinion, so FOG flares up.

It brings back the fact that I'm being 100% excluded from the family, that they've betrayed me too, that they show interest in baby and NONE WHATSOEVER in me. My parents keep telling me "why do you want them to care about you?". Well... .it's just revolting. I feel I'm being treated like an object, or like a hen or a surrogate.

I know... .I should try to un-hamsterwheel from this, but it's hard.

I managed, quite successfully for 2 months, but I'm starting to reach my limit.

If it wasn't for baby, I would go NC and heal my wounds. But I can't. Every week it feels like someone is pushing my head back into water... .and by the time I'm breathing again, it starts again.

[Rapt Reader]

I do know how it feels to have kids--and one being an infant is further stressful (and I also breastfed; one for 15 months, the other for 22!)  

It's a lot to cope with, and I know you are doing your best... .I just hate to see you so tied up with this stress, and emotions regarding your Husband, besides  

How can I help?

[formflier]

I know I'm feeling down because of my appointment with the lawyer, tomorrow. I'm lost, confused. I feel forced into doing the opposite of what I wanted... .

You are not forced... .you have choices to make.  He isn't "making you" make any choices.  Is it really a smart time to go dealing with a lawyer when you are "lost and confused"... .?

Now he hates me and I have no idea as to WHY?

Please don't take it personally... .it's BPD... not him. 

I can't help wondering again and again what on earth have I done to deserve such treatment?

I never knew life could be so hard.

The worst is, even if he miraculously turned into an angel today, I don't even know whether I'd able to forgive the turmoil I've been through with the kids. And will I ever be able to trust him again?

Yes... .trust can be regained... .  It's not easy... .but it is worth it

[Indyan]

Thanks, you are already helping lots Rapt Reader  

Can I tell you what I've come up with, after reading lots of stuff around here? See if I'm going somewhere that makes any sense.

1) I've come to the conclusion that BPD says lots and lots, threatens of this and that but (so far) does nothing. He's projecting his fear onto me and IT WORKS!

I also feel other people's fear, like my friends or my parents'. They tell me I need a C.O to protect myself, that BPD is planning things against me and WILL do something some time. That fuels my paranoid (Rosemary's Baby kinda) thoughts. BUT I need to remember that so far HE HASN'T done anything against me (that I know), apart from asking questions to a lawyer.

2) I try to work on my FOG, especially my fear. The T talked a lot about fear, actually on Saturday, and I think he want to help me with this next time I see him. I'm scared (again, sorry) that my actions such as seeing the lawyer tomorrow are reactions of fear that will not bring positive behaviour from him. I wonder if I should work towards trust instead. Let the baby spend a few hours in his family, show I trust them, even if letting baby go 1h drive from here for the whole afternoon SCARES me. But on another hand I wonder if maybe my dad is right and to be respected by "these people" (in their system of values) I need to show I'm strong, with court order, strict limits and so on. In short: I don't want to be overnice.

3) On another hand I'm aware that doing nothing also comes from fear. Not seeing the lawyer because I'm scared of BPD's reaction, scared of losing him for good, scared of the final court order.

That's why I feel trapped. Whatever I do or don't do, I am scared. That's a no-win situation, or so I feel.

My fear evolves around CUSTODY. Either I confront the cyclop and try and pose my conditions FIRST. Or I keep wandering near the cave, wondering whether there is a dragon in there, and what is he planning to do to me?

Sorry, if that was a bit long, I feel a bit better already from just facing and discussing my fears with honesty.

[formflier]

 

Don't make decisions based on fear... .that is generally bad.  With pwBPD... .even worse.

Make choices based on what you think is wise.

Wisdom takes education, training and time...

If you fear going to lawyer... .and fear what happens if you don't go... .that is big red flag.  Nobody is trapped... .you have choices.

[Indyan]

You are not forced... .you have choices to make.  He isn't "making you" make any choices.  Is it really a smart time to go dealing with a lawyer when you are "lost and confused"... .?

Please don't take it personally... .it's BPD... not him. 

Yes... .trust can be regained... .  It's not easy... .but it is worth it

Hard choices to make. I have a problem with the idea of he not "making me make any choices". I make my own choices, ok. It's just... .I don't know what he's capable of, with his friend BPD pushing him in a wrong direction. And he probably doesn't know it himself.

The lawyer... .was my solution to my feeling of confusion and fear. Maybe I won't go for a court order and will just gather information... .get ready "just in case". But people tell me "the sooner the better", as baby grows fast and the older, the more time he'll be allowed to spend with his dad. And that scares me, especially at the moment.

I'm aware that receiving a letter from my lawyer would probably fuel his paranoia and his feeling of abandonment.

He told me after MC that he just wanted "all this to be over for good". So what's the point leaving a tiny door open then? He's been pushing me away (with two truces, end of August and beginning of September) since July. I wonder there is hope somewhere. He accepted MC, to then say in front of T that THIS ALSO was my decision.

[Indyan]

Don't make decisions based on fear.

Make choices based on what you think is wise.

Wisdom takes education, training and time...

If you fear going to lawyer... .and fear what happens if you don't go... .that is big red flag.  Nobody is trapped... .you have choices.

That sounds wise! I'm going to try to keep this in mind.

What do you mean it's a big red flag? Where does the danger lie?

I shouldn't do anything then?

So... .If I think of what is WISE... .

I'd let baby go, but not too long, and nicely organized, not waiting anxiously and "lending" my baby reluctantly.

I'll probably make everything ready with lawyer and tell her to wait for my gunshot before taking action.

[Indyan]

So I went to see a lawyer today.

That helped me a lot to work on FOG.

I explained everything I could (didn't mention BPD, just said he was paranoid, impulsive and depressed). She understood very well the situation and told me "To stop living in fear. You have the upper hand, you can decide. Don't let him control the situation and you."

She said that there was no point going for C.O, but he goes for it, I'm ready.

She came to the conclusion that "the time is wrong to take the matter further". Better wait for BPD to calm down (if he ever does), and see how our r/s evolves.

Nice woman.

Last night, I received a message from BPD's dad asking about taking baby this Saturday. He called me back today, I agreed and decided of when to pick baby up and bring him back.

I'm really trying to let go of this fear and that pain in my stomach.

[Rapt Reader]

It sounds like your meeting with the Lawyer went well... .She gave you good advice 

Last night, I received a message from BPD's dad asking about taking baby this Saturday. He called me back today, I agreed and decided of when to pick baby up and bring him back.

I'm really trying to let go of this fear and that pain in my stomach.

I'm sure that this is really stressful and scary for you, considering what you've been feeling lately. Hang in there; it really could go well with his parents (or just his Dad?) present, and it could be a positive experience for everyone. I wish you well with this 

[Indyan]

Today I received a text message from BPD saying "You must call the landlord regarding plumbery and tell him what you'll do once I'm gone in 3 months"

5 minutes later the landlord called me, he was confused and worried. He said he's received a letter of notice this morning, very formal and all, written by who you know.

I told the landlord that our names being both written on the lease contract, he cannot just leave like this. And that we are staying in the house. I also explained that BPD "had a breakdown" and "wasn't well at the moment" and not to take seriously whatever he may say. The landlord agreed to communicate with me from now on (as he's always been doing).

I also went to check with the letting agency, they confirmed that his letter has no value. They told me only an agreement between him and me could lead to him disengaging from the lease. Otherwise, whether he lives in the house or not doesn't make a difference : we owe the rent TOGETHER. I'm only starting to work PT now and I'm far from being able to afford to pay for our house.

I tried to react quite calmly, without panicking, and I think I managed quite well. Although telling the letting agent and the landlord that BPD is "out of his mind" wasn't much fun, it's maybe the first time that I find his threat pathetic.

But still I can't help wondering:

1) The landlord said the letter was posted on Monday. He obviously wrote it on Sunday, when he was "Terminator-like". What did he really expect from all this? To feel better? After MC on Saturday, one of his last sentences was "I want this r/s to be completely over".

2) Did he REALLY think that I would believe all this, or obey without double checking? He said "You must discuss with the landlord about what you'll do after my departure." He really expected me to DO THIS? That's PURE MANIPULATION. And it's very evil. Either he really thinks that his letter has value and that's just mad to think that he could wish to put us out on the street, the kids and I (or just my D10 and I, and he would take baby?). Or he KNOWS that things don't work this way, and he tried to manipulate me into doing what he wants!

That's sick. He's a sick person.

I need your advice on how to react to this. For now, I haven't answered his text message.

I don't know how to react tomorrow when he's coming to pick up baby.

I also though of phoning his dad, to tell him calmly that his son is out of his mind, and that I'm not going anywhere. But it's pointless I guess, he won't side with me.

So I'll just do... .NOTHING?

[formflier]

Today I received a text message from BPD saying "You must call the landlord regarding plumbery and tell him what you'll do once I'm gone in 3 months"

I need your advice on how to react to this. For now, I haven't answered his text message.

I don't know how to react tomorrow when he's coming to pick up baby.

I also though of phoning his dad, to tell him calmly that his son is out of his mind, and that I'm not going anywhere. But it's pointless I guess, he won't side with me.

So I'll just do... .NOTHING?

When is your next MC?  Or when is the next time that you will see him in person.

A big goal you should have is to move all r/s discussion off text... .and into person.

Then with you getting stronger and smarter about the lessons... .you can help those interactions get better and healthier.

I think a response that says "I will discuss this with you on xyz when I see you is appropriate... ."

DO NOT agree or disagree... .goal is to acknowledge that he has communicated... .let him know when you will be able to talk in person... .and then don't mention it again until then.

Don't tell him that is your plan...

[Indyan]

Thanks FF but I don't get it... .

I can't talk to him in person, he scares me. Just seeing me is a huge trigger.

I feel there is no way out  :'(

[Indyan]

When is your next MC?  Or when is the next time that you will see him in person.

A big goal you should have is to move all r/s discussion off text... .and into person.

No MC planned just yet... .and to be honest, I don't feel strong enough to experience this again.

I've already told him that I don't want to answer to phone messages (when he kept asking for news)... .and I won't. Well, actually, last night I did. I saw a politician on TV that we both dislike very much being interviewed by a journalist we also both dislike very much and criticizing a writer we both love. So I felt like sending him a text message about it. He answered "yes, it's funny". So the "phone media" was open again he thought?

When you talk about the lessons, do you think of something in particular?

I've read everything I could so far.

You mean SET and FOG?

Is there anything else?

[sweetheart]

Indyan remember no matter how much this may feel as though this is about you it really isn't. The trigger for this was most likely the MC session on Saturday, for someone as dysregulated as your partner is at the moment, he is moving from trigger to trigger with no time in between to calm down, this will cause him to say and behave in this disordered way.

The fact that what he has done makes no sense to you is because he is responding from a truly hurt place.

When my husband was like this last year I had to start dealing with things by myself. He was walking around our local area running into police stations, his mental health facility saying I was trying to kill him, that they needed to protect him, keep him safe, he was afraid he was going to die. The reality for him was real, he believed and felt this but it was not about me, it was about his mother. A house move and his P leaving caused a breakdown which was like a reliving of the initial attachment trauma. He reminded me of someone who had PTSD.

Your partner is caught up in something that is very hard to understand, he is reliving his past attachment trauma with his mother. In another post I suggested you look up 'transference.'

All that said being on the receiving end of this emotional chaos is really awful. By dealing with the landlord yourself and explaining that your partner is unwell at the moment empowers you. It puts you in control and stops things from happening to you. It was great that you did this.

Can you try really hard to depersonalise any contact with your partner, remember if what he is saying makes no sense or feels completely off this is because it is not really about you. Talk to the feeling of what he is saying not to the content.

When my husband was really really unwell it helped me visualise a baby crying, I then tried to soothe that sound with soft noises and gentler words. Sorry if that sounds a bit weird, but it worked for me.

[sweetheart]

Just want to add I think it's wise that there is no mc planned at the moment. Just keep up with your individual T for the moment. This might help stabilise things a bit for the moment for you both.

What contact do you need to have at the moment ?

[formflier]

Thanks FF but I don't get it... .

I can't talk to him in person, he scares me. Just seeing me is a huge trigger.

I feel there is no way out  :'(

A huge trigger... .for who? 

I understand the "no way out" feeling... .I've thought that myself... .many... .many times.

I would encourage you to meet in person... .have read the lessons on boundaries and validation... .and have a positive interaction.

You get to choose if you allow him to be "mean" to you.  Don't choose that... .

It may take a couple meetings... .but he'll figure it out.

[formflier]

 https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206

Keep reading this.

What boundaries can you choose... .to be safe from him being "mean".

[Indyan]

A huge trigger... .for who? 

I understand the "no way out" feeling... .I've thought that myself... .many... .many times.

I would encourage you to meet in person... .have read the lessons on boundaries and validation... .and have a positive interaction.

You get to choose if you allow him to be "mean" to you.  Don't choose that... .

It may take a couple meetings... .but he'll figure it out.

A trigger for him! I AM the trigger, the target.

What do you mean "I get to choose if I allow him to be mean"? What should I do? Leave everytime he's mean?

[formflier]

Leave everytime he's mean?

That is one option... .please read about boundaries... .let me know what you read...

[sweetheart]

Yes Indyan if he is being mean, verbally abusive, dysregulated, stop the conversation, phone call or whatever you are doing.

Withdraw by saying " we can come back to this when things are calmer... ." you could say ' I will contact /meet you on and we can have this discussion then... ." then walk away, hang up the phone. Disengage. The next time you talk if the same thing happens, if it escalates again, repeat above and try again. Keep on doing this until he can talk without abuse and raising his voice. Until that time do not talk with him until he is calm. Things usually get worse with this before they get better. So if he were to send abusive, angry, threatening texts, letters whatever, do not respond to them. Keep repeating that you will discuss this with him when things are calmer. Try not to say 'when you are calmer' say 'things.'

Hope this helps x

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Indyan]

Thanks to you both!

Today I felt trapped between trying to validate his "feelings" and not reacting to his threat and demand that I call the landlord etc.

In the end, I tried to follow this advice:

DO NOT agree or disagree... .goal is to acknowledge that he has communicated... .let him know when you will be able to talk in person... .and then don't mention it again until then.

I wrote:"I know that the situation is hard on all of us (that he's staying at his parents and still paying for the rent here), we'll discuss this with a mediator. Have a good evening, see you tomorrow."

The mediator was HIS idea, last week. I hadn't answered because there's nothing really to discuss at the time being. I CANNOT pay for the rent as I'm on maternity leave, and just starting to work a few hours a week only. But maybe talking about future arrangements would help?

I don't know whether this is what he expected or not but he didn't answer... .

Also, I called his dad. I tried to remain calm yet firm. I told him that the notice had no legal value and then I explained that all I wanted is bPD to get better for the sake of all of us -especially baby.

The dad went from "he's not well because he's not seeing his baby much" to "his ill-being".

I explained that BPD has painted everything black and stays in the victim mode, and that nothing good will come out from that. I reassured on my good intentions, and mentionned that "the priority is that HE gets better, not that a nuclear war gets started."

It might have been useless, but at least I managed to express things in a calm and empathic way rather than with anger and despair, as I did before.

I've been reading a lot tonight about VALIDATION, BOUNDARIES, TAKING A TIME OUT, NOT PICKING THE GAUNTLET.

And I made a poster from this (I'd read about JADE before but I reminded is necessary these days:

Write this on something and read it 10 times a day till you firmly get it.

* Don't argue

* Don't defend

* Don't justify

* Don't explain

* Don't counter attack

* Take care of yourself and take a time out.

I've been thinking a lot about reinforcing bad behaviour. And I've had, of course.

Like last Saturday, after MC. He ran away from me, I called him a coward.

And what did I do? I tried to phone him 4 times.

So in a way I rewarded him from running away... .well, in fact, it could be worse as it's better than telling all the horrible things he told me afterwards... .

And then he "rewarded" me for calling him so many times I guess by texting me back and asking about where I was.

He behaved like a robot and scared me.

What did I do? I tried to revive some humanity in him and to hug him.

Does that imply that I encouraged his robot attitude?

I have a question here: Why do they want us to "pick the gauntlet"? What do they gain from making us angry or upset?

I didn't act angry after he sent the notice letter, and that must have AMAZED him. That was THE subject he'd been threatening me about for months and HE DID IT!

It shows he's a coward, a liar and a leaver.

Am I "rewarding" his lousy attitude by answering so "nicely" to him? Maybe I should have been less friendly and "have a nice evening, see you tomorrow" was too much? But I AM like that, friendly, hearted, considerate. That's my REAL nature. Being angry, resentful, scared in not the real me.

Am I right to allow myself to be me?

[Indyan]

Your partner is caught up in something that is very hard to understand, he is reliving his past attachment trauma with his mother. In another post I suggested you look up 'transference.'

Thanks for sharing your experience with your husband, it feels good not to be alone in this.

I read some stuff about transference, and yes it makes a lot of sense. He's "confusing" me with his mother. BTW, she's been away traveling aroung and coming back around now. Could that maybe be good for me, as he will be able to direct his resentment at the right person? Like in the summer, he went mad at his mother, broke things in her kitchen, and I found him with a bleeding hand. He felt so bad about this that I suddenly got my "wife position" back. He confided in me (I tried to tell him that wasn't my business, as I don't want to hear about his mum when I know he talks badly about me to his family) and became close to me for some days.

[Indyan]

I had an awful night, hardly slept.

I feel a wreck today.

The betrayal just fell on me, I can't get over it.

I think what was left of love and hope is gone for good. How could he sent a notice letter knowing that the kids and I are still living in the house?

I'm seriously thinking of moving closer to my family (and away from his) to my home town, 1000 km from where I am now. Selling the furniture and going to a house my parents own. It's complicated though because my daughter has her addy here and goes to school. But I can't stand this chaos, drama and threats any longer. I'm not eating and sleeping anymore.

I've done all I could (nanny, social worker, job interviews, MC... .) and I can't do more. GAME OVER.

[sweetheart]

Indyan I hear you loud and clear, feeling as though hope and love are lost must be truly heartbreaking for you.

This is something that aside from support from here you have been doing on your own with two small children and that is extremely difficult.

I know we can make knee jerk responses when we are feeling hurt and upset. Is it possible for you though to move nearer your parents for more support, is this a real option that you want to consider?

If you can just focus on what is best in the short-term now for you and your children. You have a young baby and daughter who need you, and at the moment you are being whipped around in the maelstrom that can be BPD. This has you understandably emotionally overwhelmed.

Step away from the relationship for a moment and make a list of viable options for you and your family. Like, finances, housing, child care, support, work. Focus just for now on the practicalities of your situation, take a break from engaging in conversation about the relationship.

I am so sorry that you are having such an awful time.

[Indyan]

Thanks Sweetheart  

Honestly this morning I wasn't sure whether to let baby go away or not. I didn't want to let baby go just because I'd feel forced to... .

I had arranged 12:30 - 5PM with BPDh's dad. But when I phoned the dad yesterday he mentioned "late in the morning", and I rectified "no - it's at 12:30".

So, I expected BPD to show up earlier than arranged. I locked the door with a key he doesn't have (I think). At 11:45, there he comes, not knocking of course and trying to open the door.

I went to the other side of the house, into the garden, to not hear him. I hesitated about sneaking out from the back door but decided to stay. Eventually, he managed to open the door (no idea how) and looked surprised to see me in the garden.

He looked rather calm, at least calmer than last Saturday. Maybe he's dad spoke a bit to him?

He said to me: "It might be my paranoia, but coming from the back of the garden like this, with all the doors locked... .was there someone with you?"

In other circumstances I'd have found this very funny, but here I found it pathetic. After all he did to me, he worries that there might be someone here?

I answered calmly "I always lock the door like this" (which is true).

Anyway... .they were ready to leave at 12:15.

I said "So you'll be back at around 5PM?" and he answered "No, probably later".

His dad told me "We'll see how it goes. If baby cries too much, we'll come back earlier. I'll keep you informed."

I said it was a question of mutual TRUST (meaning if I can't trust them now, there won't be another time), to respect the arranged time.  BPD said "time that YOU decided of, not me."

He does nothing to reassure me. I'm a mummy, he doesn't seem to care about that at all!

The "good" (but surprising) thing is that baby seemed very excited to see BPD dad. He kept wanting to go in his arms. That's better than the opposite, but I didn't expect that, especially that he's seen him only occasionnaly for the last 3 months.

[sweetheart]

I didn't realise that your partner had the baby today. I would be so torn as well. That in itself is really anxiety inducing.

Try not to let them trash your time boundary. You set a time it was agreed, they must respect that. If they don't then you might have to consider making access more formal. Worrying about whether your baby comes home on time just amplifies all worries. And it's not ok for you or the baby to be messed around.

I'm glad he was calmer. His response about having someone in the house is exactly what my husband would say. That is about his paranoid, distorted thinking rather than the reality that that might be happening. And he is aware that he is paranoid 

I'm really glad the baby was happy to see him, that would be reassuring for you at least.

Try now and take a break do something nice for you if you can or with your daughter. Watch a film, have a bath, play a game, get some sleep.,whatever it is try and enjoy, just in that moment. 

[Indyan]

My daughter's with her dad too... .the feeling is not that nice, like a bit empty space without the kids.

Anyway, I went swimming and to the sauna, it was refreshing but I can't keep my mind out of my troubles. It's getting obsessional.

I don't think BPD will respect the schedule at all... .we'll see.

I don't like this at all.

"Making access more formal" may not be good in fact, he could get a full week-end. According to my lawyer, it's better to try and stay like this as long as possible.

[formflier]

 

Boundaries... .one thing you will read about is if you set them... .you need to keep them.

If you care about the schedule... then hold to it.  If you are nursing mom and need to care for baby... that means more than what he wants.

How did the times get decided on? 

Not saying you did anything right or wrong today... .just need to think things through.

Entering the house on his own is pushing through a boundary.  Need to think about next time how that will be handled... .if you didn't make a big deal about it today... .that "told" him it was ok. 

[Indyan]

How did the times get decided on? 

Last week, on Thursday, he provoked me saying (texting) "I'll take baby from 10AM to 7PM". I said that was way too long for a first time... .he got upset, refused dialogue of course.

Then the next day, his dad claimed he was calling without him knowing and asked for the same thing. I said no and KINDLY proposed 12:30 to 5. The dad agreed.

He then phoned me twice this week to arrange the schedule again, trying to push towards "late in the morning", I corrected and reminded of the time.

[formflier]

 

Involving a third party should be avoided.  Make plans with the person you will hold responsible for times.

Hopefully you can have a discussion with him and him alone at the dropoff about how to schedule the next one.

Such as... let's make contact on Wed to set up next Sat visit.

[Indyan]

Involving a third party should be avoided.  Make plans with the person you will hold responsible for times.

Hopefully you can have a discussion with him and him alone at the dropoff about how to schedule the next one.

Such as... let's make contact on Wed to set up next Sat visit.

I'm angry, I feel I've been fooled. I was the one saying for weeks on that HE was the one who should come and visit his baby and the one I wanted to deal with. I even refused to deal with the family... .but then FEAR.

He's been so scary lately that I though his dad was calling to avoid more confrontation.

I trusted him and once more, was betrayed.

Yesterday was awful. When they left, his dad said to me ":)on't worry, I'll keep you informed (as he usually does)". I got NOTHING. At 5PM and onward I texted them, then tried to call. NO REPLY. I really started to worry, so at 6PM I called his sister (they were going to a bday at her place). I used my home number, or else I think she wouldn't have picked up. She told me "they had just left" but refused to say when (I think they were leaving... .).

Eventually BPD sent a message at 6:30PM saying they were on their way.

They arrived at 7PM, baby crying and rally hungry (he eats at 6:30 normally).

I was really upset. I'm SURE they didn't pick up the phone ON PURPOSE.

I asked the dad "was your phone broken?" I had to text/call SEVEN TIMES to know what the hell was going on!

In the end, things didn't go well of course. He shouted, saying he was baby's daddy, and entitled to take him as he wanted for as long as he wanted. No respect for me whatsoever.

I said "fine, then if I can't trust you, he won't go anywhere anymore."

What made me angry was when I looked at the dad and said "We had arranged times, hadn't we?"

And he said "I arranged nothing. You imposed your schedule."

What a hypocrite. I will never, ever agree on an outing with him again.

I'm sick and tired of this family.

Then he texted me lots, trying to drag me back into FOG.

He said he was trying peace with me, that he always behaved in a good and fair way (really? how about sending the notice letter behind my back?) and bla bla bla.

I answered "Actions speak louder than words. No more FOG - fear obligation guilt"

But he carried on "If you wish to keep me from seeing my son bla bla bla, he'll know the truth when he grows, he'll know his dad loves him... ."

I told him that no matter what I do, he's into war and nothing I do can prevent this.

That now I need to think of myself and that I don't want FOG anymore.

That as long as he considers himself a victim we won't be able to communicate.

I don't think he understood ANY of all this.

[sweetheart]

Indyan I'm really sorry it has come to this for you. It is clear from your post that neither your partner or his family are able to respect your wishes or ultimately the well-being of a baby.

I posted yesterday that perhaps the time has come to make access more formal, which will also make it safer for you and your baby's needs. I know you said you were concerned about this, but it is more concerning to read that they broke your agreement and then blamed you. This does not sound as though it is workable for you to manage on your own, as clearly his family are not seeing the full picture. Or are in denial.

In a family that is functional it should be entirely possible to make child access arrangements with a grandparent. Do not reproach yourself over this it was perfectly reasonable to expect that they would support the arrangements. Now you know different you won't do that again and that's ok.

To move out of the fog, to move to meeting yours and your child's needs formalise access, it is not worth trying again. Look at the legal threads they are littered with the chaos caused by people with BPD causing havoc around access to their children.

I know that you have the strength to stop this, by putting clear boundaries in place the process will be easier for you.

[Indyan]

I sent a first message on his phone proposing to call me back when he's alone and calm to discuss things over. I got no reply, so I sent another message proposing to meet with a mediator this week. No answer so far, he must have been too busy telling everyone I'm planning to keep him from seeing his baby.

My phone hadn't saved the message I sent, and I wanted proof of this, so I also sent a more formal version of my request by email. It went like this (I translate for you ):

"For the good of our son, I propose to meet with a mediator asap to come to an agreement regarding visitation rights, alimony and the house." I then indicated the days I'm available. And "I wish to keep our contact to a minimum until then. Until the situation improves, I will ask you to not come to our adress bla bla, for the good of our son aged 9 and my D10, as your behaviour scares them and scares me too. Thanks for your cooperation, I'm sure you'll act toward the good of our son, his parents and his big sister."

I don't think he'll appreciate the "scary behaviour" part, but well.

He's just sent me a message... .it says "I didn't have my phone with me. You want to talk?"

He seems well-disposed but who knows how long it will last. I'm making a point of not mentioning our r/s and MC and to sticking to concrete stuff. Once this is solved (and it's a huge matter), we'll be able to work (if we wish) towards a better relationship.

How does that sound?

Thanks for reading all this, it feels really good having people who truly understand what sort of problems I have.

I forgot to say that last night in our text conversation, he mentionned "it's sad that you didn't see my efforts of the previous week as going to MC was far, expensive etc."

I tried to avoid using (ugly hairy) buts and howevers () and said "You think I didn't see your efforts? Why?" and in a separate message ":)uring MC I felt criticized a lot and our r/s was denigrated".

I got no answers to this... .

[Indyan]

Well he replied very agressively that "he's not into mediation but wants court order... ."

I guess I'd better move to L3... .

[formflier]

 

Even as a "stayer"... .you need to act to protect your boundary of time with baby.  That doesn't mean you need to go to undecided or leaving... .but you made it a big deal about the times... .and now you need to send the message that times matter to you.

This assumes that times matter.

Also... .I understand the frustration and the "need" to make him see your point of view... .but as you saw... .he just wanted you to see his point of view... .

Doing that by text is frustrating at best... .please think about that in the future.  That alone is a good reason to go to MC or a mediator... .to get it off text... .off the phone... and in person with a refereee.

Recommend not talking to anyone else in his family.  Just him.

Don't explain to the dad "why"... .just don't communicate anything substantial with him. 

Hang in there... .I know this is frustrating.

[Indyan]

Yes time matters but I'm not a time control freak either. I mean, if he had shown some cooperation when they left, and if he had sent a message at 5PM to say they were leaving and on their way, things would have been different. But not answering the phone, asking his dad (I imagine) not to respond... .I had to call HIS SISTER (that I hate) to have confirmation that "everything was OK and they were on their way back". BLOODY HELL!

It's sad because I did EVERYTHING I could to be nice and cooperative. I talked to him nicely when he came, I said "baby was going to put on a colourful t shirt for his cousin to like him" (the big event was BPD's niece's bday, she's 3 or something). I said gbye with a smile etc.

BPD left without even a look at me, standing there on the pavement, obviously worrying.

He did NOTHING to reassure me. That's truly sick.

When I compare with my D10's daddy, it's just unbelievable. He texts me a lot, we discuss everything freely, he's great... .

What's strange is that I'm feeling calm tonight. It may not last, who knows, but it's as if FEAR had gone. Like, the game is over, now truth has to come out. I've no idea how much truth will come out.

When he wrote "I'll contact my lawyer and will get back to you depending on what he says. FYI, I'm not into mediation anymore but Family Court Judge", I felt bad but I could see he was still trying to FOG me.

(BTW, I don't know whether you can spot the inconsistency of his sentence).

I answered "Please do. He'll get to see who is working towards communication for the good of our child. FCJs like mediation, and the decisions taken there can even be sent to the FCJ for validation." and I went on saying that "all this is really sad, that I'd thought he wanted to build a family. That, as the T put it we were "heading for disaster", that he was like a pilotless motorbike, his hatred towards me just growing bigger and bigger.

He replied "Your last sentence just shows how communicative you are. I have asked you billion of times to spare me your negative comments about me, I'll show this mail to my lawyer, persecution must cease."  

I answered "I'm sorry you feel persecuted. No matter how hard I tried, it changed nothing in that feeling you have. Baby is small, he won't just disapear, he'll grow. It's more important that you use this time to feel better than to make war."

I got no answer of course, but never mind I said what I had to say.

I doubt anything could bring him to his senses at this stage anyway... .

[formflier]

 

Hey... .I don't think you are helping yourself or your cause with the back and forths of the emails. 

So... ."challenging" him to "please do"... .is responding to his provocation.

The key to being a stayer... .or a "leaver"... .is to not fight with a pwBPD.

A little bit of "bad reinforcement" can destroy progress quickly.

It's up to you to make sure that you minimize the amount coming from your side. 

If you don't feel strong enough to communicate... .don't.

It's better to avoid "invalidating"... .and not get to validate... .than to try to validate... .but end up invalidating.

Hang in there... .focus on what you are going to do to hold the time boundary. 

What ideas do you have... .?

[Indyan]

What ideas do you have... .?

Psychological assessment and declarations to support the fact that he's been dysregulating loads of times (I'll try with neighbours and friends). He has NO friends, that's already a relief.

[formflier]

What ideas do you have... .?

Psychological assessment and declarations to support the fact that he's been dysregulating loads of times (I'll try with neighbours and friends). He has NO friends, that's already a relief.

And what will you do with that information?

So... .what happens next time when he shows up 45 min early... .or whatever it was?

Or next time he is late?

[Indyan]

And what will you do with that information?

So... .what happens next time when he shows up 45 min early... .or whatever it was?

Or next time he is late?

I want to ask for supervised visitation or limited visitation until he's "better". I suppose he can try to control himself if he has baby one day per week. However a full week, or worse a month, and he will explode for sure.

I wrote to him I wanted NC until mediation... .or court it that's his choice.

It's really sad but I tried the kind way, discussing, trusting, arranging things, cooperating. And what came out of it? He thinks I'm weak and that he can FOG me as much as he wants and get what he wants.

I had to say stop. It breaks my heart, but no choice  :'(

[Indyan]

I need your advice... .

He sent me an email today.

It went:

"Hi, I just wanted to say I'd like to come home and spend time with baby this week-end. I propose to come from 12 to 7PM, either Saturday or Sunday, whichever day suits you best.

It may be for you the opportunity to spend some time with D10, I'm sure it will do you good.

No need to reply straightaway, there's no urgency. I just need a reply by Thursday so I can get organized.

Have a nice day."

I've NO IDEA what to think of this.

On one hand I'd like to reinforce his positive and negotiative attitude.

On the other hand, he's still bypassing my demand which was "nothing before mediation".

What do you think? Is this a trap or could it be awareness that (normally) court means the end of our r/s?

My last message mentions that his behaviour is scary. So if I reply positively it could be "proof" that I'm not that scared?

Oh Lord, I can't be spontaneous anymore, I feel I'm getting paranoid too... .

[formflier]

You have plenty of time to respond... .don't rush.

My first reaction is that him coming over is a good thing.  Spend time together... .you can work your lessons... .validate... focus on good things.

But... .don't rush to respond back.

[Indyan]

You have plenty of time to respond... .don't rush.

My first reaction is that him coming over is a good thing.  Spend time together... .you can work your lessons... .validate... focus on good things.

But... .don't rush to respond back.

Thanks FF,

Yes the previous times (twice, right before MC) he came over to spend time with baby, things worked quite well.

I'm aware that I can't prevent him from seeing his baby either, especially at home, as this is rather reassuring too.

But I'm not sure what to make of his intentions. Whether he's still trying to manipulate me into what HE wants, with proposed times... .I don't care about having the upper hand, it's just that why should he suggest times and not respect mine when I do?

[formflier]

 

You will never... .ever... .know his intentions... .

So... .try not to spend energy on that.

You will know his actions... and reactions... .spend your energy there.

You know your values... .you know your boundaries... .that is a WONDERFUL place to spend your energy protecting... .

[Indyan]

You will never... .ever... .know his intentions... .

Have you managed to stop wondering about your wife's motives? I guess they don't know themselves what they really want anyway... .?

You will know his actions... and reactions... .spend your energy there.

Yes, I told him lately that only actions mattered, that the rest was just beautiful talk.

I also answered "NO MORE FOG" several times when I didn't like his messages. He has no idea what he means but it made me feel better 

You know your values... .you know your boundaries... .that is a WONDERFUL place to spend your energy protecting... .

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has been locked due to reaching its post limit. This is a worthwhile topic, so please feel free to start another thread to continue the conversation... .