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Author Topic: Marriage Counseling  (Read 765 times)
sweetheart
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« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2014, 01:55:29 PM »

Yes Indyan if he is being mean, verbally abusive, dysregulated, stop the conversation, phone call or whatever you are doing.

Withdraw by saying " we can come back to this when things are calmer... ." you could say ' I will contact /meet you on and we can have this discussion then... ." then walk away, hang up the phone. Disengage. The next time you talk if the same thing happens, if it escalates again, repeat above and try again. Keep on doing this until he can talk without abuse and raising his voice. Until that time do not talk with him until he is calm. Things usually get worse with this before they get better. So if he were to send abusive, angry, threatening texts, letters whatever, do not respond to them. Keep repeating that you will discuss this with him when things are calmer. Try not to say 'when you are calmer' say 'things.'

Hope this helps x
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Indyan
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« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2014, 03:05:50 PM »

Thanks to you both!

Today I felt trapped between trying to validate his "feelings" and not reacting to his threat and demand that I call the landlord etc.

In the end, I tried to follow this advice:

DO NOT agree or disagree... .goal is to acknowledge that he has communicated... .let him know when you will be able to talk in person... .and then don't mention it again until then.

I wrote:"I know that the situation is hard on all of us (that he's staying at his parents and still paying for the rent here), we'll discuss this with a mediator. Have a good evening, see you tomorrow."

The mediator was HIS idea, last week. I hadn't answered because there's nothing really to discuss at the time being. I CANNOT pay for the rent as I'm on maternity leave, and just starting to work a few hours a week only. But maybe talking about future arrangements would help?

I don't know whether this is what he expected or not but he didn't answer... .

Also, I called his dad. I tried to remain calm yet firm. I told him that the notice had no legal value and then I explained that all I wanted is bPD to get better for the sake of all of us -especially baby.

The dad went from "he's not well because he's not seeing his baby much" to "his ill-being".

I explained that BPD has painted everything black and stays in the victim mode, and that nothing good will come out from that. I reassured on my good intentions, and mentionned that "the priority is that HE gets better, not that a nuclear war gets started."

It might have been useless, but at least I managed to express things in a calm and empathic way rather than with anger and despair, as I did before.

I've been reading a lot tonight about VALIDATION, BOUNDARIES, TAKING A TIME OUT, NOT PICKING THE GAUNTLET.

And I made a poster from this (I'd read about JADE before but I reminded is necessary these days:

Write this on something and read it 10 times a day till you firmly get it.

* Don't argue

* Don't defend

* Don't justify

* Don't explain

* Don't counter attack

* Take care of yourself and take a time out.


I've been thinking a lot about reinforcing bad behaviour. And I've had, of course.

Like last Saturday, after MC. He ran away from me, I called him a coward.

And what did I do? I tried to phone him 4 times.

So in a way I rewarded him from running away... .well, in fact, it could be worse as it's better than telling all the horrible things he told me afterwards... .

And then he "rewarded" me for calling him so many times I guess by texting me back and asking about where I was.

He behaved like a robot and scared me.

What did I do? I tried to revive some humanity in him and to hug him.

Does that imply that I encouraged his robot attitude?

I have a question here: Why do they want us to "pick the gauntlet"? What do they gain from making us angry or upset?

I didn't act angry after he sent the notice letter, and that must have AMAZED him. That was THE subject he'd been threatening me about for months and HE DID IT!

It shows he's a coward, a liar and a leaver.

Am I "rewarding" his lousy attitude by answering so "nicely" to him? Maybe I should have been less friendly and "have a nice evening, see you tomorrow" was too much? But I AM like that, friendly, hearted, considerate. That's my REAL nature. Being angry, resentful, scared in not the real me.

Am I right to allow myself to be me?
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Indyan
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« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2014, 03:10:29 PM »

Your partner is caught up in something that is very hard to understand, he is reliving his past attachment trauma with his mother. In another post I suggested you look up 'transference.'

Thanks for sharing your experience with your husband, it feels good not to be alone in this.

I read some stuff about transference, and yes it makes a lot of sense. He's "confusing" me with his mother. BTW, she's been away traveling aroung and coming back around now. Could that maybe be good for me, as he will be able to direct his resentment at the right person? Like in the summer, he went mad at his mother, broke things in her kitchen, and I found him with a bleeding hand. He felt so bad about this that I suddenly got my "wife position" back. He confided in me (I tried to tell him that wasn't my business, as I don't want to hear about his mum when I know he talks badly about me to his family) and became close to me for some days.
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Indyan
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« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2014, 04:26:57 AM »

I had an awful night, hardly slept.

I feel a wreck today.

The betrayal just fell on me, I can't get over it.

I think what was left of love and hope is gone for good. How could he sent a notice letter knowing that the kids and I are still living in the house?

I'm seriously thinking of moving closer to my family (and away from his) to my home town, 1000 km from where I am now. Selling the furniture and going to a house my parents own. It's complicated though because my daughter has her addy here and goes to school. But I can't stand this chaos, drama and threats any longer. I'm not eating and sleeping anymore.

I've done all I could (nanny, social worker, job interviews, MC... .) and I can't do more. GAME OVER.
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« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2014, 05:35:35 AM »

Indyan I hear you loud and clear, feeling as though hope and love are lost must be truly heartbreaking for you.

This is something that aside from support from here you have been doing on your own with two small children and that is extremely difficult.

I know we can make knee jerk responses when we are feeling hurt and upset. Is it possible for you though to move nearer your parents for more support, is this a real option that you want to consider?

If you can just focus on what is best in the short-term now for you and your children. You have a young baby and daughter who need you, and at the moment you are being whipped around in the maelstrom that can be BPD. This has you understandably emotionally overwhelmed.

Step away from the relationship for a moment and make a list of viable options for you and your family. Like, finances, housing, child care, support, work. Focus just for now on the practicalities of your situation, take a break from engaging in conversation about the relationship.

I am so sorry that you are having such an awful time.

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« Reply #35 on: October 11, 2014, 06:20:54 AM »

Thanks Sweetheart  

Honestly this morning I wasn't sure whether to let baby go away or not. I didn't want to let baby go just because I'd feel forced to... .

I had arranged 12:30 - 5PM with BPDh's dad. But when I phoned the dad yesterday he mentioned "late in the morning", and I rectified "no - it's at 12:30".

So, I expected BPD to show up earlier than arranged. I locked the door with a key he doesn't have (I think). At 11:45, there he comes, not knocking of course and trying to open the door.

I went to the other side of the house, into the garden, to not hear him. I hesitated about sneaking out from the back door but decided to stay. Eventually, he managed to open the door (no idea how) and looked surprised to see me in the garden.

He looked rather calm, at least calmer than last Saturday. Maybe he's dad spoke a bit to him?

He said to me: "It might be my paranoia, but coming from the back of the garden like this, with all the doors locked... .was there someone with you?"

In other circumstances I'd have found this very funny, but here I found it pathetic. After all he did to me, he worries that there might be someone here?

I answered calmly "I always lock the door like this" (which is true).

Anyway... .they were ready to leave at 12:15.

I said "So you'll be back at around 5PM?" and he answered "No, probably later".

His dad told me "We'll see how it goes. If baby cries too much, we'll come back earlier. I'll keep you informed."

I said it was a question of mutual TRUST (meaning if I can't trust them now, there won't be another time), to respect the arranged time.  BPD said "time that YOU decided of, not me."

He does nothing to reassure me. I'm a mummy, he doesn't seem to care about that at all!

The "good" (but surprising) thing is that baby seemed very excited to see BPD dad. He kept wanting to go in his arms. That's better than the opposite, but I didn't expect that, especially that he's seen him only occasionnaly for the last 3 months.
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sweetheart
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« Reply #36 on: October 11, 2014, 07:22:48 AM »

I didn't realise that your partner had the baby today. I would be so torn as well. That in itself is really anxiety inducing.

Try not to let them trash your time boundary. You set a time it was agreed, they must respect that. If they don't then you might have to consider making access more formal. Worrying about whether your baby comes home on time just amplifies all worries. And it's not ok for you or the baby to be messed around.

I'm glad he was calmer. His response about having someone in the house is exactly what my husband would say. That is about his paranoid, distorted thinking rather than the reality that that might be happening. And he is aware that he is paranoid  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm really glad the baby was happy to see him, that would be reassuring for you at least.

Try now and take a break do something nice for you if you can or with your daughter. Watch a film, have a bath, play a game, get some sleep.,whatever it is try and enjoy, just in that moment. 
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« Reply #37 on: October 11, 2014, 09:28:30 AM »

My daughter's with her dad too... .the feeling is not that nice, like a bit empty space without the kids.

Anyway, I went swimming and to the sauna, it was refreshing but I can't keep my mind out of my troubles. It's getting obsessional.

I don't think BPD will respect the schedule at all... .we'll see.

I don't like this at all.

"Making access more formal" may not be good in fact, he could get a full week-end. According to my lawyer, it's better to try and stay like this as long as possible.
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« Reply #38 on: October 11, 2014, 11:20:12 AM »

 

Boundaries... .one thing you will read about is if you set them... .you need to keep them.

If you care about the schedule... then hold to it.  If you are nursing mom and need to care for baby... that means more than what he wants.

How did the times get decided on? 

Not saying you did anything right or wrong today... .just need to think things through.

Entering the house on his own is pushing through a boundary.  Need to think about next time how that will be handled... .if you didn't make a big deal about it today... .that "told" him it was ok. 

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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2014, 11:46:10 AM »

How did the times get decided on? 

Last week, on Thursday, he provoked me saying (texting) "I'll take baby from 10AM to 7PM". I said that was way too long for a first time... .he got upset, refused dialogue of course.

Then the next day, his dad claimed he was calling without him knowing and asked for the same thing. I said no and KINDLY proposed 12:30 to 5. The dad agreed.

He then phoned me twice this week to arrange the schedule again, trying to push towards "late in the morning", I corrected and reminded of the time.
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« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2014, 05:20:46 PM »

 

Involving a third party should be avoided.  Make plans with the person you will hold responsible for times.

Hopefully you can have a discussion with him and him alone at the dropoff about how to schedule the next one.

Such as... let's make contact on Wed to set up next Sat visit.

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Indyan
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« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2014, 01:47:24 AM »

Involving a third party should be avoided.  Make plans with the person you will hold responsible for times.

Hopefully you can have a discussion with him and him alone at the dropoff about how to schedule the next one.

Such as... let's make contact on Wed to set up next Sat visit.

I'm angry, I feel I've been fooled. I was the one saying for weeks on that HE was the one who should come and visit his baby and the one I wanted to deal with. I even refused to deal with the family... .but then FEAR.

He's been so scary lately that I though his dad was calling to avoid more confrontation.

I trusted him and once more, was betrayed.

Yesterday was awful. When they left, his dad said to me ":)on't worry, I'll keep you informed (as he usually does)". I got NOTHING. At 5PM and onward I texted them, then tried to call. NO REPLY. I really started to worry, so at 6PM I called his sister (they were going to a bday at her place). I used my home number, or else I think she wouldn't have picked up. She told me "they had just left" but refused to say when (I think they were leaving... .).

Eventually BPD sent a message at 6:30PM saying they were on their way.

They arrived at 7PM, baby crying and rally hungry (he eats at 6:30 normally).

I was really upset. I'm SURE they didn't pick up the phone ON PURPOSE.

I asked the dad "was your phone broken?" I had to text/call SEVEN TIMES to know what the hell was going on!

In the end, things didn't go well of course. He shouted, saying he was baby's daddy, and entitled to take him as he wanted for as long as he wanted. No respect for me whatsoever.

I said "fine, then if I can't trust you, he won't go anywhere anymore."

What made me angry was when I looked at the dad and said "We had arranged times, hadn't we?"

And he said "I arranged nothing. You imposed your schedule."

What a hypocrite. I will never, ever agree on an outing with him again.

I'm sick and tired of this family.

Then he texted me lots, trying to drag me back into FOG.

He said he was trying peace with me, that he always behaved in a good and fair way (really? how about sending the notice letter behind my back?) and bla bla bla.

I answered "Actions speak louder than words. No more FOG - fear obligation guilt"

But he carried on "If you wish to keep me from seeing my son bla bla bla, he'll know the truth when he grows, he'll know his dad loves him... ."

I told him that no matter what I do, he's into war and nothing I do can prevent this.

That now I need to think of myself and that I don't want FOG anymore.

That as long as he considers himself a victim we won't be able to communicate.

I don't think he understood ANY of all this.
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sweetheart
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« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2014, 03:30:21 AM »

Indyan I'm really sorry it has come to this for you. It is clear from your post that neither your partner or his family are able to respect your wishes or ultimately the well-being of a baby.

I posted yesterday that perhaps the time has come to make access more formal, which will also make it safer for you and your baby's needs. I know you said you were concerned about this, but it is more concerning to read that they broke your agreement and then blamed you. This does not sound as though it is workable for you to manage on your own, as clearly his family are not seeing the full picture. Or are in denial.

In a family that is functional it should be entirely possible to make child access arrangements with a grandparent. Do not reproach yourself over this it was perfectly reasonable to expect that they would support the arrangements. Now you know different you won't do that again and that's ok.

To move out of the fog, to move to meeting yours and your child's needs formalise access, it is not worth trying again. Look at the legal threads they are littered with the chaos caused by people with BPD causing havoc around access to their children.

I know that you have the strength to stop this, by putting clear boundaries in place the process will be easier for you.
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« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2014, 08:27:32 AM »

I sent a first message on his phone proposing to call me back when he's alone and calm to discuss things over. I got no reply, so I sent another message proposing to meet with a mediator this week. No answer so far, he must have been too busy telling everyone I'm planning to keep him from seeing his baby.

My phone hadn't saved the message I sent, and I wanted proof of this, so I also sent a more formal version of my request by email. It went like this (I translate for you Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)):

"For the good of our son, I propose to meet with a mediator asap to come to an agreement regarding visitation rights, alimony and the house." I then indicated the days I'm available. And "I wish to keep our contact to a minimum until then. Until the situation improves, I will ask you to not come to our adress bla bla, for the good of our son aged 9 and my D10, as your behaviour scares them and scares me too. Thanks for your cooperation, I'm sure you'll act toward the good of our son, his parents and his big sister."

I don't think he'll appreciate the "scary behaviour" part, but well.

He's just sent me a message... .it says "I didn't have my phone with me. You want to talk?"

He seems well-disposed but who knows how long it will last. I'm making a point of not mentioning our r/s and MC and to sticking to concrete stuff. Once this is solved (and it's a huge matter), we'll be able to work (if we wish) towards a better relationship.

How does that sound?

Thanks for reading all this, it feels really good having people who truly understand what sort of problems I have.

I forgot to say that last night in our text conversation, he mentionned "it's sad that you didn't see my efforts of the previous week as going to MC was far, expensive etc."

I tried to avoid using (ugly hairy) buts and howevers (Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) and said "You think I didn't see your efforts? Why?" and in a separate message ":)uring MC I felt criticized a lot and our r/s was denigrated".

I got no answers to this... .
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« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2014, 10:17:58 AM »

Well he replied very agressively that "he's not into mediation but wants court order... ."

I guess I'd better move to L3... .
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« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2014, 02:19:28 PM »

 

Even as a "stayer"... .you need to act to protect your boundary of time with baby.  That doesn't mean you need to go to undecided or leaving... .but you made it a big deal about the times... .and now you need to send the message that times matter to you.

This assumes that times matter.

Also... .I understand the frustration and the "need" to make him see your point of view... .but as you saw... .he just wanted you to see his point of view... .

Doing that by text is frustrating at best... .please think about that in the future.  That alone is a good reason to go to MC or a mediator... .to get it off text... .off the phone... and in person with a refereee.

Recommend not talking to anyone else in his family.  Just him.

Don't explain to the dad "why"... .just don't communicate anything substantial with him. 

Hang in there... .I know this is frustrating.

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« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2014, 02:59:28 PM »

Yes time matters but I'm not a time control freak either. I mean, if he had shown some cooperation when they left, and if he had sent a message at 5PM to say they were leaving and on their way, things would have been different. But not answering the phone, asking his dad (I imagine) not to respond... .I had to call HIS SISTER (that I hate) to have confirmation that "everything was OK and they were on their way back". BLOODY HELL!

It's sad because I did EVERYTHING I could to be nice and cooperative. I talked to him nicely when he came, I said "baby was going to put on a colourful t shirt for his cousin to like him" (the big event was BPD's niece's bday, she's 3 or something). I said gbye with a smile etc.

BPD left without even a look at me, standing there on the pavement, obviously worrying.

He did NOTHING to reassure me. That's truly sick.

When I compare with my D10's daddy, it's just unbelievable. He texts me a lot, we discuss everything freely, he's great... .

What's strange is that I'm feeling calm tonight. It may not last, who knows, but it's as if FEAR had gone. Like, the game is over, now truth has to come out. I've no idea how much truth will come out.

When he wrote "I'll contact my lawyer and will get back to you depending on what he says. FYI, I'm not into mediation anymore but Family Court Judge", I felt bad but I could see he was still trying to FOG me.

(BTW, I don't know whether you can spot the inconsistency of his sentence).

I answered "Please do. He'll get to see who is working towards communication for the good of our child. FCJs like mediation, and the decisions taken there can even be sent to the FCJ for validation." and I went on saying that "all this is really sad, that I'd thought he wanted to build a family. That, as the T put it we were "heading for disaster", that he was like a pilotless motorbike, his hatred towards me just growing bigger and bigger.

He replied "Your last sentence just shows how communicative you are. I have asked you billion of times to spare me your negative comments about me, I'll show this mail to my lawyer, persecution must cease."  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I answered "I'm sorry you feel persecuted. No matter how hard I tried, it changed nothing in that feeling you have. Baby is small, he won't just disapear, he'll grow. It's more important that you use this time to feel better than to make war."

I got no answer of course, but never mind I said what I had to say.

I doubt anything could bring him to his senses at this stage anyway... .

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« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2014, 04:18:36 PM »

 

Hey... .I don't think you are helping yourself or your cause with the back and forths of the emails. 

So... ."challenging" him to "please do"... .is responding to his provocation.

The key to being a stayer... .or a "leaver"... .is to not fight with a pwBPD.

A little bit of "bad reinforcement" can destroy progress quickly.

It's up to you to make sure that you minimize the amount coming from your side. 

If you don't feel strong enough to communicate... .don't.

It's better to avoid "invalidating"... .and not get to validate... .than to try to validate... .but end up invalidating.

Hang in there... .focus on what you are going to do to hold the time boundary. 

What ideas do you have... .?
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« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2014, 02:32:22 AM »

What ideas do you have... .?

Psychological assessment and declarations to support the fact that he's been dysregulating loads of times (I'll try with neighbours and friends). He has NO friends, that's already a relief.

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« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2014, 06:16:59 AM »

What ideas do you have... .?

Psychological assessment and declarations to support the fact that he's been dysregulating loads of times (I'll try with neighbours and friends). He has NO friends, that's already a relief.

And what will you do with that information?

So... .what happens next time when he shows up 45 min early... .or whatever it was?

Or next time he is late?
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« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2014, 10:46:35 AM »

And what will you do with that information?

So... .what happens next time when he shows up 45 min early... .or whatever it was?

Or next time he is late?

I want to ask for supervised visitation or limited visitation until he's "better". I suppose he can try to control himself if he has baby one day per week. However a full week, or worse a month, and he will explode for sure.

I wrote to him I wanted NC until mediation... .or court it that's his choice.

It's really sad but I tried the kind way, discussing, trusting, arranging things, cooperating. And what came out of it? He thinks I'm weak and that he can FOG me as much as he wants and get what he wants.

I had to say stop. It breaks my heart, but no choice  :'(
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Relationship status: separated for 15 months, court 4 months ago
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« Reply #51 on: October 14, 2014, 01:23:04 PM »

I need your advice... .

He sent me an email today.

It went:

"Hi, I just wanted to say I'd like to come home and spend time with baby this week-end. I propose to come from 12 to 7PM, either Saturday or Sunday, whichever day suits you best.

It may be for you the opportunity to spend some time with D10, I'm sure it will do you good.

No need to reply straightaway, there's no urgency. I just need a reply by Thursday so I can get organized.

Have a nice day."

I've NO IDEA what to think of this.

On one hand I'd like to reinforce his positive and negotiative attitude.

On the other hand, he's still bypassing my demand which was "nothing before mediation".

What do you think? Is this a trap or could it be awareness that (normally) court means the end of our r/s?

My last message mentions that his behaviour is scary. So if I reply positively it could be "proof" that I'm not that scared?

Oh Lord, I can't be spontaneous anymore, I feel I'm getting paranoid too... .
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formflier
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« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2014, 02:56:41 PM »



You have plenty of time to respond... .don't rush.

My first reaction is that him coming over is a good thing.  Spend time together... .you can work your lessons... .validate... focus on good things.

But... .don't rush to respond back.

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Indyan
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« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2014, 03:13:50 PM »

You have plenty of time to respond... .don't rush.

My first reaction is that him coming over is a good thing.  Spend time together... .you can work your lessons... .validate... focus on good things.

But... .don't rush to respond back.

Thanks FF,

Yes the previous times (twice, right before MC) he came over to spend time with baby, things worked quite well.

I'm aware that I can't prevent him from seeing his baby either, especially at home, as this is rather reassuring too.

But I'm not sure what to make of his intentions. Whether he's still trying to manipulate me into what HE wants, with proposed times... .I don't care about having the upper hand, it's just that why should he suggest times and not respect mine when I do?
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formflier
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« Reply #54 on: October 14, 2014, 05:12:39 PM »

 

You will never... .ever... .know his intentions... .

So... .try not to spend energy on that.

You will know his actions... and reactions... .spend your energy there.

You know your values... .you know your boundaries... .that is a WONDERFUL place to spend your energy protecting... .

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Indyan
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« Reply #55 on: October 14, 2014, 05:18:55 PM »

You will never... .ever... .know his intentions... .

Have you managed to stop wondering about your wife's motives? I guess they don't know themselves what they really want anyway... .?

You will know his actions... and reactions... .spend your energy there.

Yes, I told him lately that only actions mattered, that the rest was just beautiful talk.

I also answered "NO MORE FOG" several times when I didn't like his messages. He has no idea what he means but it made me feel better
  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You know your values... .you know your boundaries... .that is a WONDERFUL place to spend your energy protecting... .

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« Reply #56 on: October 14, 2014, 05:55:17 PM »

Staff only

This thread has been locked due to reaching its post limit. This is a worthwhile topic, so please feel free to start another thread to continue the conversation... .
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