His T called me demanding

[ziniztar]

Yesterday dBPDbf went to a new therapist, as an addition to his current T. He said she was somewhat impressed with his mental blockage (is that the word)? When he told her him going to therapy is a condition for me to stay in the r/s, she said that is demanding of me.

Even though I understand her interpretation, and she is probably right, it hurt me to the bone. Do you NOT know what I've already coped with? Why the hell would you say this when you haven't even met me? Do you not already know what I'm trying to do myself to improve myself? It gave me the feeling of not being good enough, not doing enough to improve myself.

It really irritated me - why don't you talk about me when I'm with you in the session and otherwise shut up. My T hasn't said a single bad word about dBPDbf and has even somewhat explained why he could have cheated in his defense. I felt really unappreciated in all the efforts I'm already putting in myself and the r/s to improve things. I never said this out loud UNTIL I explained my expectations from the r/s -because he asked a list!- and how I would be willing to build up things. I thought it was really hurtful and I couldn't let it go. He kept saying 'she said it as a fact, as an observation, she didn't put a judgement on it in any way.' but it didn't help at all.

Does anyone have similar experiences, or thoughts?

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[drummerboy]

Any therapist that would take sides like that is a quack. Real therapists, preferably a psychologist would never say something like that without at least hearing your side of the story and they wouldn't say it to your partner, they would suggest it to you.

Yesterday dBPDbf went to a new therapist, as an addition to his current T. He said she was somewhat impressed with his mental blockage (is that the word)? When he told her him going to therapy is a condition for me to stay in the r/s, she said that is demanding of me.

Even though I understand her interpretation, and she is probably right, it hurt me to the bone. Do you NOT know what I've already coped with? Why the hell would you say this when you haven't even met me? Do you not already know what I'm trying to do myself to improve myself? It gave me the feeling of not being good enough, not doing enough to improve myself.

It really irritated me - why don't you talk about me when I'm with you in the session and otherwise shut up. My T hasn't said a single bad word about dBPDbf and has even somewhat explained why he could have cheated in his defense. I felt really unappreciated in all the efforts I'm already putting in myself and the r/s to improve things. I never said this out loud UNTIL I explained my expectations from the r/s -because he asked a list!- and how I would be willing to build up things. I thought it was really hurtful and I couldn't let it go. He kept saying 'she said it as a fact, as an observation, she didn't put a judgement on it in any way.' but it didn't help at all.

Does anyone have similar experiences, or thoughts?

[waverider]

Can you be sure his interpretation of she said has not been colored a bit?

[ziniztar]

Can you be sure his interpretation of she said has not been colored a bit?

No...

What I think happened is she validated or empowered his view on this. My T does that as well when I talk about my father and am in doubt of whether his behavior was normal or acceptable. He then says: "That comes across manipulative to me". I can see why a T would do this, and why this is not necessarily a bad therapist. I have good faith in our health care system and in the therapists that get into positions like this.

What I really don't like is that in the way he dropped this on me, he can 'hide' behind the T's persona. I think he feels this way but is too scared to tell me.

What I'm planning to do is calmly discuss with him that I don't want to get into a what she said/he said style when talking about our therapy sessions. If he wants to talk to me about what he thinks of me, he is more than welcome to discuss and I will listen to him.

However, anything said about my behavior in order to facilitate his sessions is meant for him, not for me. If he wants someone else to talk to me about my behavior, then he is welcome to invite me to one of his T sessions. Otherwise, I only want to discuss things that we think of each other. I don't go running to my father saying "My therapists tells me you're manipulative, demanding, oppressing and that he thinks you're probably suffering from a PD" either.

General feedback rules apply here; keep the statement with yourself and your own experience, don't go dragging other people into the equation.

[SickofMe]

There is always a "danger" in therapy that when the therapist reflects the client's experience, the client interprets this as validation of The Truth of the situation.

example

Client:  My SO is making me come to therapy as a condition of continuing the relationship, even though I don't want to.

Therapist:  So you feel your partner is making demands on you.

<Client walks out thinking the therapist has pronounced the SO is being demanding.>

Therapy is a process and some (many?) people don't stick with it.  The first step is establishing a relationship between client/therapist so that the client feels understood.  Especially with PD clients, the therapist may spend a LONG time just establishing trust before confronting any cognitive distortions or unhealthy behaviors.

(As an aside, I don't believe it's wrong for a therapist to make observations/pronouncements, especially when it's become clear the client is being abused and is in the fog.  People who have been traumatized and are swimming in shame need help understanding that what happened--or is happening--to them is not normal.)

I wonder if looking at your own reaction to hearing "demanding" to see why that troubles you so much might be helpful.  So many people with abusive backgrounds are trained to think they don't have the right to make any demands (expectations, standards, boundaries).  Maybe thinking "it's okay for me to have expectations" would be helpful in soothing your anxiety.  It's hard not feel upset about being misrepresented/misunderstood, but knowing who you really are and what you need and want is a strength.

[waverider]

It is always hard the way that a pwBPD can interpret someone elses attempts at validating their feelings as validating the pwBPDs version of the facts.

It highlights just how tricky the whole process of validating is.

[ziniztar]

Therapy is a process and some (many?) people don't stick with it.  The first step is establishing a relationship between client/therapist so that the client feels understood.  Especially with PD clients, the therapist may spend a LONG time just establishing trust before confronting any cognitive distortions or unhealthy behaviors.

It was the first meeting... so I can see why she is building trust. He is getting a new psycho therapist next to his old one. My T (experienced in working with pwBPD) was surprised by this. 'Huh, two cognitive therapists at the same time? That is rare, they usually never do that.' and then he immediately said: 'But, not your problem!'

I wonder if looking at your own reaction to hearing "demanding" to see why that troubles you so much might be helpful.  So many people with abusive backgrounds are trained to think they don't have the right to make any demands (expectations, standards, boundaries).  Maybe thinking "it's okay for me to have expectations" would be helpful in soothing your anxiety.  It's hard not feel upset about being misrepresented/misunderstood, but knowing who you really are and what you need and want is a strength.

Yes I can see why you're saying this. I feel like I was out of line to expect him to continue therapy. The thing is, I don't demand him to go every week, if he feels really bad for a few weeks that's okay. I can see why this goes with ups and downs. But I don't want to force on him that he should go every week 'or else'. When I tried to convey that to him yesterday he no longer wanted to talk about it.

I do know he is not the man I want to get kids with - yet. I can see this happening in 2 to 3 years, but not now. And in order for me to decide to stay with him in the long run, he really really needs more therapy. Was that wrong of me to expect? I don't think it's wrong, it is actually quite healthy and a blessing to my unborn children , but perhaps I could have been more warm in conveying that message. AS my T said: you need to learn to feed your negative responses with warmth. When you're a mother, you have to be able to say: "Mmm I really could see why you want that ice cream... but you're not getting it ." Sounds like SET by the way, now I'm rereading this paragraph...

I find it difficult to see the difference between conveying want I want (good thing!), showing true emotions (good thing!) and demanding something (old, unhealthy behavior). I guess that's why the comment hurts so much, too, as I'm already working on this. I feel like I'm not being acknowledged for all the work I already put in - a thought pattern that can be dated back elementary school.

[123Phoebe]

AS my T said: you need to learn to feed your negative responses with warmth. When you're a mother, you have to be able to say: "Mmm I really could see why you want that ice cream... but you're not getting it ." Sounds like SET by the way, now I'm rereading this paragraph...

I wonder how SET in reverse would've gone over?

"Ew, I don't like hearing that I'm being demanding, it brings up all kinds of icky thoughts and feelings.  :)oes it feel like I'm demanding this of you?"

Then listen for his truth.  While first, supporting yourself by validating your experience.

Short and sweet and to the point.  

[takingandsending]

Hi ziniztar,

It might help to just reflect on your core values or beliefs - have they changed? If not and his working on himself is still important to you, then you know that about yourself, and whatever he thinks (or even what his T may think) really doesn't change that knowing. You have done a whole lot of work to understand yourself better. Trust that. 

It is also an important condition to me that my uBPDw is actively trying to work on herself, and I am committed to doing the same. I know that I am asking this out of love for her and love/self-care for me. I know my own traps of secretly hoping/harboring the wish that she "get better", and I am working on adjusting my lens to what "better" means, what acceptance and receptivity I can bring. If she feels pressure, it is her feeling. It's not my responsibility to remake my feelings and core beliefs to conform to her feelings. I have tried that route, and it leads to suffering for both parties.

And I, myself, would be hesitant to try to get at what feeling she is having about it with the reverse SET. I don't want to be my wife's therapist. While I love her and care about her, she is responsible for what she feels, and I can never relieve her of that burden, nor should I.

Hang in there. You are doing great work. 

[bruceli]

Yesterday dBPDbf went to a new therapist, as an addition to his current T. He said she was somewhat impressed with his mental blockage (is that the word)? When he told her him going to therapy is a condition for me to stay in the r/s, she said that is demanding of me.

Even though I understand her interpretation, and she is probably right, it hurt me to the bone. Do you NOT know what I've already coped with? Why the hell would you say this when you haven't even met me? Do you not already know what I'm trying to do myself to improve myself? It gave me the feeling of not being good enough, not doing enough to improve myself.

It really irritated me - why don't you talk about me when I'm with you in the session and otherwise shut up. My T hasn't said a single bad word about dBPDbf and has even somewhat explained why he could have cheated in his defense. I felt really unappreciated in all the efforts I'm already putting in myself and the r/s to improve things. I never said this out loud UNTIL I explained my expectations from the r/s -because he asked a list!- and how I would be willing to build up things. I thought it was really hurtful and I couldn't let it go. He kept saying 'she said it as a fact, as an observation, she didn't put a judgement on it in any way.' but it didn't help at all.

Does anyone have similar experiences, or thoughts?

How do you know she actually said this?  IME, PD's seem to hear what they want to hear as well as "make up" what they would like to hear.  Would'nt put too much stock in that comment.

[MissyM]

I just want to reiterate what everyone else is saying, my dBPDh can hear something that the therapist didn't say (even when I am sitting right there).  Fortunately, our therapists talk and this usually gets straightened out.  In our case, the ideal is that all of the therapists communicate and keep things flowing.  My dBPDh has just switched to individual therapy with his group therapist, and now all of the therapists will be communicating.  So nice when people can clarify with my dBPDh about what was actually said because he struggles with emotional reality vs. reality.  He also tends to think that I am controlling or demanding when I am just having healthy boundaries.  Control would be "you have to see this therapist and this many times a week" but boundary is "I can't stay in this r/s without you following your recovery plan (which includes therapy)." 

[waverider]

My partner needs to be told things many times by her councilors before she actual hears what they are saying rather than what she wants to interpret they are saying.

It is very hard to dismiss these sorts of reports, but if you take them too seriously and react you will give them a life of their own, and that will set a precedent for him to give you his version as a means of you validating his version of events, You end up opening up an avenue for future distortion. Even denial admits the possibility it exists and starts the self doubt, as this has done.

You need to shut down this option, otherwise it opens up the whole triangulation drama. He said/she said. T thinking you are nuts/you thinking T is nuts all created via BPD filters. pwBPD is victim of everyone etc...

[ziniztar]

Phoebe, thanks. That sounds a lot like something Wilma would do . If I feel okay enough to do it, I will try to do it this way.

It's not my responsibility to remake my feelings and core beliefs to conform to her feelings.

Yes, I have done this a lot. I do know it's also quite okay for me to conclude that this is not a r/s I want to be in for years and years. I do have a core belief that I like to give people a chance, and it's not like I'm not enjoying myself at all. I know I have a lot to change, too.

As I posted earlier these changes bring insecurity to everyone around, people don't like change. I am uncomfortable, he is uncomfortable, people around us are uncomfortable. I think you always need to give everyone time to get used to the new situation - including yourself.

[ziniztar]

You need to shut down this option, otherwise it opens up the whole triangulation drama. He said/she said. T thinking you are nuts/you thinking T is nuts all created via BPD filters. pwBPD is victim of everyone etc...

Yeah thanks for pointing that out to me.

1) Would you advise to never bring it up again, and when this occurs again, shut it down?

2) Or make sure I explain to him what I think about this (us not talking in this way about what therapists say) and then never bringing it up?

I think the 1st option is best really, now. Not giving it any more attention that it should?

[waverider]

You need to shut down this option, otherwise it opens up the whole triangulation drama. He said/she said. T thinking you are nuts/you thinking T is nuts all created via BPD filters. pwBPD is victim of everyone etc...

Yeah thanks for pointing that out to me.

1) Would you advise to never bring it up again, and when this occurs again, shut it down?

2) Or make sure I explain to him what I think about this (us not talking in this way about what therapists say) and then never bringing it up?

I think the 1st option is best really, now. Not giving it any more attention that it should?

Pretty much let it wash, if he pushes tell him that what is said between him and his T are not for you to comment on as you weren't there. You can easily fall into JADE defending yourself about something you have no knowledge of the real perspective

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe, thanks. That sounds a lot like something Wilma would do . If I feel okay enough to do it, I will try to do it this way.

You're welcome.  I feel it's so important NOT to deny ourselves or our partners of our true feelings, it's what creates and builds intimacy.  I used to deny mine, then sit and stew about it, things would become larger than life in my mind.  Either, I'd blow later on or become paralyzed with thoughts, not really addressing an issue or getting to the feelings part of it; mine or his.  Learning to live in the moment is a good thing, even when we feel like crud.

I'm very interested in my partners thoughts and feelings, I wouldn't be in the relationship if I weren't.

Pretty much let it wash, if he pushes tell him that what is said between him and his T are not for you to comment on as you weren't there.

Therapy is very personal.  That's why I suggested asking him if he thought you were demanding this of him, keeping the T out of the triangle, giving him the opportunity to speak for himself.

You've got this, zinztar... .  Keep on looking within