How to talk about lying/deceitfulness with a pwBPD

[Cat21]

My uBPDh lies a lot. He lies to friends, family, co-workers... .I'm not sure if he'd be considered pathological, but probably pretty close to it. He lies about things that make no sense to lie about and all to protect himself. He is terribly paranoid about what others think ALL OF THE TIME. At least, that's why I think he lies.

Anyway, a few nights ago, he was out with some friends(in a town an hour away), and told me that he was going to crash at his friend's house. I told him I thought that was smart, as he'd been drinking, and was glad he was making a safe/wise decision. He came home around 5 AM the next morning; I figured he must have woken up really early and drove home. Later that day, I found out that he never went to a friend's house to spend the night, but instead, went to a bar/club until ? time in the morning. And at some point, drove the hour home. I don't know if he was drunk, but I do know that he lied to me about where he was and what he was doing.

After I found out the truth, I questioned him (very simply), thinking I would be giving him the opportunity to come clean, but stuck to his original story.

I know I need to talk about him about this, but I'm not sure how to go about doing it. He is out of town for the next week, and this is not a convo I want to have via phone. I also know that I have "be careful" in how/what I say, but dang it I'm mad! Has anyone else had this experience? Do you have any tips on how to call a pwBPD out on this deceitful behavior? This, of course, completely drains my trust.

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[Peterpan]

Hi Cat

I have been involved with my pwBPD for five years, when I met him the first question I asked him was met with a lie, I knew it was a lie and like you chose to believe he lied to protect himself, and him wanting to impress me.

I have to say there have been millions of lies since. I had your problem, he always pushed the vulnerable insecure victim at me. This left me never being able to come right out and confront him. I loved him for who he was, he didn't need to lie to impress me etc.

I made excuses for him until the time came when I had to confront him. I had blatant proof, showed it to him, and he still denied it! When I pushed it, told him I was leaving he then changed his story, said he lied to protect ME and made me feel terrible for bringing it all up.

It's only now after four further years of hell that I dare make it known that I'm aware he has lied.

That is probably because I no longer worry about hurting his feelings, and if he disappears I won't worry.

I guess you need to just tell him that you know his story doesn't add up and that you won't tolerate it again.

Make your boundaries clear, he has to know you mean it. Good luck x

[AnnaK]

If it's something I need to know, I just say "Okay, fine - and now I need to know the real facts - even if it hurts". He usually tells the real facts then :-)

If it's something that is not important, I just acknowledge anything he says.

Not necessarily I always believe it - but I react inside the suggested context, to me it feels as if we are playing a simulation game.

Besides, it gives me the opportunity to kinda voice my opinion to different options

Like this.

Friend house? Oh, that's a safe option. Ah, no, it was the bar? Well, good you came home alive.

After such an exchange, chances are, next time it might be friend house... .

[AnnaK]

It simply does not make me mad.

In this story with friend house, I'd just poke him naughtily and say "Come on, man, confess now - I know it was the bar!"

[takingandsending]

Hi Cat21.

Can I ask you a question? What part of his story makes you mad? Is it being lied to, or that he drove when he was drunk, risking his life and others' lives? Anything else?

My reason for asking is that this might help you to understand what line(s) he has crossed that are meaningful to you. And consider that line, and whether or not you are comfortable and can accept his crossing that, or whether it is something that you cannot support, even in light of mental illness. It's important that we be very clear with ourselves when we are enabling behavior that just shouldn't, just can't be okay with us. I am not saying you are doing that. I have done this, and I am working hard to learn a new way. Validation and empathy are useful means of communicating, but is this a case where your truth also needs to be heard, that it matters? Thinking in this way may help you to have the strength to have this conversation. I hope you do have this conversation. If there's anything we can do to help, please let us know. 

[formflier]

 

Important thing is to get ready for the conversation... .be ready for the denials... .counter accusations... .etc etc.

Have some goals in mind... .my personal favorite for your story is to get into counseling.

Very important to get strong before this conversation... .so that you will not be affected by fear.

Also realize that you need to be strong so you don't end up being a prosecutor as well.

He may not appreciate it... .but try to have empathy.  What if the shoe was on the other foot? 

My gut says that this conversation... .had properly... .will result in improvement... .make you are are able to see and acknowlege TLCs... .Tiny Little Changes... .

What would that look like in this case... .?

[Cat21]

[quote author=takingandsending link=topic=234909.msg12508773#msg12508773 date=1413171951

Can I ask you a question? What part of his story makes you mad? Is it being lied to, or that he drove when he was drunk, risking his life and others' lives? Anything else?[/quote]
Well, both of those things made me angry. I don't know if he drove home drunk; he was with a friend, whom I consider to be responsible, and he also didn't come home until hours after the bars close. So, it's possible that he was sober. I just don't know, so in this case, I would say the primary offense is the lying.

He has always had trouble sticking to his word in terms of being out with friends (when I'm not there). He will tell me that he'll be home at a certain time (on his own, without me asking), and inevitably, not be home at that time and not call to say he'll be late. This of course worries me. We've talked about it many times. Last week, it happened again, and he did apologize and take responsibility the next day.

In some ways, I think the reason he lied about where he was going and what he was doing is because he wanted to "prove" that he can be responsible and not worry me. I also think that he assumes I'll be angry if he wants to stay out later with friends, even though HE is the one who put parameters on himself in the first place. Since this pattern of not sticking to his word has been an issue for years, it's my belief that at this point, he automatically assumes I'm going to be mad at him for doing anything with friends. That, of course, is not true. My anger has nothing to do with him spending time with friends: it has to do with him not keeping his word, and (especially now), lying to me.

Does that make sense?

[AnnaK]

[quote author=takingandsending link=topic=234909.msg12508773#msg12508773 date=1413171951

Can I ask you a question? What part of his story makes you mad? Is it being lied to, or that he drove when he was drunk, risking his life and others' lives? Anything else?

Well, both of those things made me angry. I don't know if he drove home drunk; he was with a friend, whom I consider to be responsible, and he also didn't come home until hours after the bars close. So, it's possible that he was sober. I just don't know, so in this case, I would say the primary offense is the lying.

He has always had trouble sticking to his word in terms of being out with friends (when I'm not there). He will tell me that he'll be home at a certain time (on his own, without me asking), and inevitably, not be home at that time and not call to say he'll be late. This of course worries me. We've talked about it many times. Last week, it happened again, and he did apologize and take responsibility the next day.

In some ways, I think the reason he lied about where he was going and what he was doing is because he wanted to "prove" that he can be responsible and not worry me. I also think that he assumes I'll be angry if he wants to stay out later with friends, even though HE is the one who put parameters on himself in the first place. Since this pattern of not sticking to his word has been an issue for years, it's my belief that at this point, he automatically assumes I'm going to be mad at him for doing anything with friends. That, of course, is not true. My anger has nothing to do with him spending time with friends: it has to do with him not keeping his word, and (especially now), lying to me.

Does that make sense?[/quote]
I am sorry, but to me it totally sounds like parental control. You don't see yourself as his mother, do you?

As for myself, when my man goes somewhere I don't ask him where he is going and when he is planning to come back. If he informs me, I nod, but I don't control if he sticks to his word. Even I sometimes can change my mind halfway and go elsewhere and come home at some different time - he has this freedom too.

I just assume, that a grown up man, regardless if drunk or sober, is perfectly capable of judging his condition and finding his way without my help (after all, somehow he lived without me before, right?)

I also don't want him to mis-judge his condition, to drive drunk because I "allowed" him (or because I "prohibited" him - to spite me), and get into trouble. If he does get into trouble - at least I won't feel like it's my fault.

[takingandsending]

Anna K,

I don't think you can know this. Only Cat can know her own feelings. If being lied to or lying is something that doesn't align with Cat's personal values, then it's okay for her to have a boundary around it. If she is checking in on her husband to try to manage him, then yes, it is falling more within control and co-dependency.

Cat, I guess that's why I was suggesting to you to consider what his actions mean to you. If you think about how you try to be in the world, what is essential that people know and see within you, that's getting closer to your core values, the bare bones of who you are and what you need to move forward with others in your life. For me, I kept coming back to civil, respectful communications with my uBPDw. I found that this was something that I needed as a minimum to go forward. So, despite not wanting to face her backlash or trigger her, I have slowly and consistently started to express this boundary. And, even though it's early in the process, it seems to be helping both of us. I hope that, in your own way, you can talk to your husband in a way that helps you express your needs.

Good luck and don't lose heart! 

[Cat21]

Cat, I guess that's why I was suggesting to you to consider what his actions mean to you. If you think about how you try to be in the world, what is essential that people know and see within you, that's getting closer to your core values, the bare bones of who you are and what you need to move forward with others in your life. For me, I kept coming back to civil, respectful communications with my uBPDw. I found that this was something that I needed as a minimum to go forward. So, despite not wanting to face her backlash or trigger her, I have slowly and consistently started to express this boundary. And, even though it's early in the process, it seems to be helping both of us. I hope that, in your own way, you can talk to your husband in a way that helps you express your needs.

Anna- No, I certainly don't see myself as his mother. Keep in mind, when he goes out with friends, it is HE who sets the parameters on when he'll be home, etc; not me. However, in telling me that he'll be home at a certain time, with whom he will be, etc., he is setting up an expectation. I take him at his word, and treat him how I expect to be treated. If I am out with friends, and don't come home until 2 AM with no phone call or text to let him know where I am, he would be furious and worried out of this mind. To consistently squash the expectation means that I can no longer take him at his word, which means I can't trust him. To me, trust is the foundation of any relationship. If I can't trust my H to do what he says, and keep his word, then something is broken and needs to be addressed. I am not trying to manage or control his actions; I'm trying get him to be honest with me and not feel like he has to lie in order to do what he wants. I hope that's clear.

Talking- thanks. Yes, indeed, lying is something that aligns with my personal values, so this is a big deal for me. In reading what you said, what is essential for me is also civil, respectful communication. In the 5 months that I've been using the tools I've learned on this website, and in the 2 months I've been working with a T, I've been successful at setting and maintaining boundaries. But, these boundaries have been set and maintained mostly around dysregulations and arguments. (for example: when he raises his voice or insults me, I take a time out. That is crossing a boundary). I have noticed some progression, albeit small, in this area. I think discussing his lying and dishonesty falls in the same category of respectful communication. It is not respectful to lie to one's partner. I suppose my trouble is that I am not 100% sure how to enforce the boundary around lying. I know that I have to be prepared for backlash/denial when we have this conversation. I guess what I'm saying is, I must come to terms with my own bottom line. That's hard.

[tinkerbellsmom]

I really hate being lied to, and it happens to me all the time.  I have a BPD daughter who does not even seem to know what the truth is!  This is one of the things I really need to work on getting over.  It is so insulting to me that I just can not have a relationship with her as long as she is doing it!  Even if you had a relationship with her, it would not be a real one, it is the one that she is deciding to make up at the moment.  It is so frustrating to me!  I look forward to hearing others suggestions and how do you emotionally cope with it too?

[hope2727]

Yes I want to hear suggesting too. My pwBPD lies like a rug these days despite telling me when we met and on his dating profile that he NEVER lies. He actually used to stutter and blush when he lied and I found it charming. Now he lies to everyone especially about my actions. So far he has alienated most of my friends telling them I was lying and cheating (he was not me). Its painful and exhausting. Is there any way to have accountability form people with BPD? And how do we live with the lies of not?

[takingandsending]

This is a good topic, Cat. Thanks for raising it with us and being so honest with where you're at right now. 

I am not sure that the lying that Cat described is the same type of painting black lying that hope2727 describes. Maybe lying is lying. I think Cat is on to it here:

I guess what I'm saying is, I must come to terms with my own bottom line. That's hard.

The hard part is we have to work out what our own bottom line is to work out our boundaries. I have never had much skill or experience at expressing my boundaries to others, to the point that I lost track of where they even were. I am starting with my wife, mostly at times where she is in a dysregulation, but slowly creeping into more normal, everyday conversations, to express my boundaries. I have a lot of attachment to what it means when I say "no" to someone, or leave someone or some situation without rescuing. I have a lot of old habits that are not serving me or my RS. Still, I am seeing positive results, and I don't think there are any shortcuts to doing this work. You will only learn how to deal with a lying pwBPD by going through the muck of why you have accepted the lies to this point, or why you have fought about them, or why basically you refused to walk away and make the pwBPD in your life responsible for their own actions. I am neck deep in this muck, shoveling it out with a teaspoon. But you know, it's only neck deep now. A year ago, I was in over my head. 

[hope2727]

"why basically you refused to walk away and make the pwBPD in your life responsible for their own actions. I am neck deep in this muck, shoveling it out with a teaspoon. But you know, it's only neck deep now. A year ago, I was in over my head"


Wow truer words have never been spoken. Thank you that expresses what I couldn't articulate.

[Cat21]

Agreed. Talking, how true! Thanks for sharing.

I've decided that I'm  going to spend the next week defining my boundary around this and crafting a basic outline of what I'll say when my h comes back to town.

[Grey Kitty]

I suppose my trouble is that I am not 100% sure how to enforce the boundary around lying. I know that I have to be prepared for backlash/denial when we have this conversation. I guess what I'm saying is, I must come to terms with my own bottom line. That's hard.

Boundaries are my absolute favorite tool... .because they can be enforced without any need for consent, compliance, agreement, or anything from the other party. They are great for protecting you from the consequences of another person's behavior.

What they cannot do is force the desired change in another person's behavior. (For example, somebody can keep raging at the wall if you leave the room. You don't stop them from raging, just from doing it at you.)

So your bottom line may be that you would end your r/s over the lying, but that is really tough to do. Unfortunately, that is the only enforceable boundary I can think of. I'd recommend you look at other options instead.

First, remember that "busting" him on a lie is invalidating. It will fuel the fires of mental illness. Perhaps some lies are not important enough to confront?

Second, perhaps you can try to stop him from volunteering things he is likely to lie about when he first mentions them?

Third, there are communication tools to help negotiate things like this. D.E.A.R.M.A.N. is worth trying.

[Cat21]

First, remember that "busting" him on a lie is invalidating. It will fuel the fires of mental illness. Perhaps some lies are not important enough to confront?

Second, perhaps you can try to stop him from volunteering things he is likely to lie about when he first mentions them?

Thanks, Grey Kitty. I don't understand exactly how "busting" him for lying is invalidating. Could you explain that? Would it be invalidating to say something like, "I know you went to xyz instead of to your friend's house. Why didn't you tell me the truth?"

I'm also not sure how I would stop him from lying, especially about where he is and what he's doing. If I were to try that, what would the language look like?

[formflier]

 

If he "feels" like he is not lying... .then you invalidate him by saying he is.

Also... .you can't stop him from lying.

You can pierce his world... .and he may see that he is lying... .and he may choose to continue... .or stop.

That is a big point of clarity for you to think of before going into this "confrontation" or discussion.  You need to wrap your mind around "easing" him into better behavior... ."confronting" a pwBPD rarely goes well.

You obviously feel the need to address this... .and I think you should... .but... .want to make sure you do this in "best" way possible.

And also that you are clear that could do everything "right" and hey could flip out... .

[takingandsending]

Hello Cat.

One of the things that works about SET is that you are only talking about feelings versus facts, because to the pwBPD "feelings are facts". So could you possibly try something like, "I can see that you feel afraid that I might be disappointed in you (or angry at you) when you are at a bar late at night. I would feel the same way if I thought you were judging my behavior or things that I like to do to unwind. I think we do better together (or I really feel better) when we can talk openly."

Will truth spill forth? Probably not, but it's opening the door for communication about something that's tight and unable to get out right now. Even if you can get that door open a little, there's possibility for growth. Right now, the door is closed between you, and you are both on the other side feeling angry, defensive and let down.

And as formflier says, you have to be prepared that he will be defensive and dysregulate anyway. At that point, you really have done your part. You spoke your truth, compassionately. You can walk away and let things cool down. Perhaps, after, that door will be open a crack - it will be your husband's choice. And, as formflier has shared, sometimes, you may have to walk away to really precipitate any positive changes happening. I have not got to that point or decision in my marriage, and I am certainly afraid of reaching that place. Just more work for me to do as I sort through my own emotions. Ugh.

[Grey Kitty]

Thanks, Grey Kitty. I don't understand exactly how "busting" him for lying is invalidating. Could you explain that? Would it be invalidating to say something like, "I know you went to xyz instead of to your friend's house. Why didn't you tell me the truth?"

Yup, that would be invalidating. The first part is intrinsically invalidating. The part I bolded in there is throwing-gasoline-on-a-open-fire invalidating. That part is inviting him to JADE back at you, and likely to escalate things badly. (Does he rage at you or verbally abuse you?)

When it comes to invalidation, truth doesn't matter much at all, and doesn't take away the sting. Consider what is inside his mind here:

If he believes the lie he told you [not too likely, but possible], telling him that his reality is wrong is invalidating. He won't be happy about it, and (likely) won't react well.

On the other hand, if he doesn't believe the lie, but is trying to get away with it, pointing this out to him still won't match his reality (he thinks he did get away with it... .or should get away with it... .or needs to get away with it).

Does that make sense?

Now that I've explained that, I gotta say that being invalidating can be the right thing to do. Certainly validating the invalid is not the right thing to do here. Dropping the subject may be your best course of action.

I look at it this way--any invalidation is very hard for a pwBPD to cope with productively, so I want to at least be aware and choose to do it for good reasons... .not just because "it is the truth."

(Another story: my wife's brother was a bad alcoholic. He was something of a pathological liar to just about everyone. She spoke with him daily for months, just listened, and wasn't judgmental toward him. Eventually he figured out through experience that she wouldn't criticize him, and he didn't need to lie to her. By being validating, and listening, you may eventually get this sort of result from him.)

[Cat21]

One of the things that works about SET is that you are only talking about feelings versus facts, because to the pwBPD "feelings are facts". So could you possibly try something like, "I can see that you feel afraid that I might be disappointed in you (or angry at you) when you are at a bar late at night. I would feel the same way if I thought you were judging my behavior or things that I like to do to unwind. I think we do better together (or I really feel better) when we can talk openly."

Ok- I get that. In this scenario, do I mention the fact that I know the truth? In some ways, I feel like what I'm hearing is that the truth is irrelevant and the goal is to establish better communication (or crack the door for it) rather than focus on a singular issue. Am I reading that wrong?

[Cat21]

Yup, that would be invalidating. The first part is intrinsically invalidating. The part I bolded in there is throwing-gasoline-on-a-open-fire invalidating. That part is inviting him to JADE back at you, and likely to escalate things badly. (Does he rage at you or verbally abuse you?)

When it comes to invalidation, truth doesn't matter much at all, and doesn't take away the sting. Consider what is inside his mind here:

If he believes the lie he told you [not too likely, but possible], telling him that his reality is wrong is invalidating. He won't be happy about it, and (likely) won't react well.

On the other hand, if he doesn't believe the lie, but is trying to get away with it, pointing this out to him still won't match his reality (he thinks he did get away with it... .or should get away with it... .or needs to get away with it).

Does that make sense?

Yes, that makes sense. I don't know this for sure, but my guess is the reason he lied to me is because he thought I'd be mad at him for staying out super late and thought I'd be worried about him drinking and driving. (Both of these things are true!) However, I am MORE upset that he feels that he has lie instead of being able to honestly talk to me. Also, in this particular instance, he made up and entire story throughout the night- numerous text messages to me, alerting me of why he might possibly be late (most of which were completely ridiculous and implausible), and then finally told me he'd be spending the night at a friend's. So, in this particular situation, he really manipulated me. I think that's why it's hitting me so hard; he didn't just tell one lie, he told several. He planned out his lies over the evening.

So, with that, I feel as though I have to bring up the fact that I know the truth and that he lied (but I need better language for it, obviously), because to NOT say that would be bad communication on my end. Does that make sense? I understand that pointing out the lie won't match his reality, which is why I know I need to say something like, "I feel like you're worried about telling me the truth when you plans with friends. I'm sorry you feel that way- I would feel backed into a corner if I knew you were going to be upset, too." But then how to work in the "I know you weren't honest with me" bit is still hard. It's so frustrating not being able to say what I REALLY want to say!

[Grey Kitty]

It's so frustrating not being able to say what I REALLY want to say!

Yes. Incredibly frustrating. I completely get where you are with this, why this is important to you, and that the lying is the biggest part of the problem for you. I would feel the same way.

So, with that, I feel as though I have to bring up the fact that I know the truth and that he lied... .

If you say you "have to" you aren't taking ownership for your choice to say this to him. I get that you want to say it. Nobody but yourself is making you do it, though.

There are a lot of things I really WANT to say, but chose not to... .because I was quite sure that I would not be getting any results I liked from those words.

My question for you is this: What do you expect to happen when you tell him this? Or perhaps, what do you WANT to happen?

[Cat21]

My question for you is this: What do you expect to happen when you tell him this? Or perhaps, what do you WANT to happen?

What I expect to happen: For him to do one of two things. 1) Say he forgot to mention it because it's not a big deal. Then, launch into a dysregulation about how I'm controlling and he should be able to come and go as he pleases. 2) Admit to not telling the truth because he was afraid of how I'd react because I'm controlling and don't want him to have any fun. And also, that I should trust him because he doesn't do stupid things.

What I want to happen: For him to acknowledge his mistake (call this an apology if you like, but apologies don't mean a whole lot to me anymore) and explain to me why he doesn't feel comfortable being honest. I will try my hardest to validate the emotion that's behind his hesitance to tell the truth and reassure him that no matter how scary it may seem, I'll prefer the truth to a lie. (in a perfect world, he'd understand this and agree to work on communication so that it doesn't happen again!)

I know that I'm likely to not get the result I want. And you're right- no one is making me say this; it's completely my choice. But, it's a choice that I feel only has 1 option. So, I guess what I need to prepare for is the backlash/denial/dysregulation that may occur and see if a civil/productive conversation is possible after the cloud passes. What do you think?

[takingandsending]

Hi Cat.

This is a strong value for you, so you are choosing to make it a strong boundary. I support you in that decision. I think you have to have the conviction to be strong when you communicate to him. I would still enter with S-E. But be more direct with your truth. Truth is, I want you to be honest with me.

Just don't be tempted to follow him down the rabbit hole if he begins to JADE and eventually turn it on you. You don't need to and probably shouldn't explain anything. Present what you know, tell him "I want you to be honest with me" or "It's important to me that you are honest with me." and don't pursue it, don't justify it, don't do anything. You have been honest to who you are. You took care of your needs in the relationship. You are not responsible for his reaction.

(in a perfect world, he'd understand this and agree to work on communication so that it doesn't happen again!)

One thing that I know I fall victim to is having to think about my own expectations and see whether they are rational in any RS or a strong reaction to past hurts that I am feeling from my relationship with pwBPD. In some cases, some resentments I was holding on to were things that I should never have expected, even in a healthy RS. You have been honest in stating you are really hurt by his lies, and that's apparent in that you don't want it to happen again. In a normal RS, I don't think that is realistic. I do not want to minimize your experience, because I hear this is an ongoing issue that is really hurting you. Have you worked out what it means about you? This is really the critical part for you anyway because it holds the key of what you are really needing to take care of and be loving around your own needs. Sometimes, until I get this piece for myself, I feel like I am chasing after some notion of what I want to feel better about myself, and it dilutes the clarity of my communications with my wife who, with BPD, really can't be empathetic and help me work it out.     So all that to say, be honest with yourself as to what it means about you. It may be there's something inside that's hurting and needs your attention and care, and the better you know that part of yourself, the clearer your communications with your husband will be, which will help him and you.

[formflier]

Just don't be tempted to follow him down the rabbit hole if he begins to JADE and eventually turn it on you. You don't need to and probably shouldn't explain anything. Present what you know, tell him "I want you to be honest with me" or "It's important to me that you are honest with me." and don't pursue it, don't justify it, don't do anything. You have been honest to who you are. You took care of your needs in the relationship. You are not responsible for his reaction.

Taking and sending,

Strong point!  Cat... .this will be critical.

Make sure delivery is even... .calm.  When he gets excited... .stay calm.

[Grey Kitty]

This is a strong value for you, so you are choosing to make it a strong boundary.

I do agree that it is a strong value, and important. This sounds like a detail, but it is actually important--I don't use the word boundary that way. Here's how I see it:

"pwBPD, don't do X" is a rule. For example: ":)o not lie to me."

"pwBPD, if you do X, I will do Y to protect myself" is enforcing a boundary. For example: "If you lie to me, I will end our r/s."

Addendum: Saying "If you lie, I will end our r/s" if more of a threat, and works like a rule. To enforce the boundary, you simply need to take the action, whether you gave verbal warning in advance or not.

I make this distinction because boundary enforcement works very well with pwBPD. Rules work badly with them. In fact this is true with anybody, just more so with pwBPD.

Cat21, I'm sorry to say that I cannot think of a less draconian boundary enforcement for this situation. In your shoes, I probably wouldn't enforce this boundary like this.

So, I guess what I need to prepare for is the backlash/denial/dysregulation that may occur and see if a civil/productive conversation is possible after the cloud passes. What do you think?

Q1: How much of a recurring issue is this? Do you catch him in a lie vaguely like this on a daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly basis? And how often do you "bust" him on it?

If the lie/bust cycle is common, and his (bad) reaction to being busted is fairly consistent, I highly recommend a new strategy for you.

Q2: How many times have you told him how much his lying bothers/hurts you?

I ask this because BPD isn't stupidity--if you have told him dozens of times, he already knows. Simple ignorance of this fact is NOT the reason he lies to you.

[takingandsending]

Hi Grey Kitty.

I make this distinction because boundary enforcement works very well with pwBPD. Rules work badly with them. In fact this is true with anybody, just more so with pwBPD.

True statement. Did I mention I am not so great with boundaries?  You are right; there has to be an enforcement that follows. The one that I have applied when communication becomes blaming, raging, or otherwise devaluing each other is that I will not engage in further discussion until the emotional arousal has calmed down.

Maybe there is a less draconian response, although formflier is living proof that sometimes you have to go to drastic measures to create change. Cat, have you ever considered just ending the discussion when known lies are being spoken? A simple validation, "I understand that you are feeling _____ (blamed?). I will be happy to discuss it when we are both willing to speak truthfully to one another." Over and out. Leave, walk away, take a break. Ball is in his court, where it belongs. Don't know if it is strong enough. Again, I think you have to get at where your hurt is to understand what is acceptable.

[formflier]

I will be happy to discuss it when we are both willing to speak truthfully to one another." 

This is going to require a "snap" decision be made about something which all the facts most likely will NOT be known.  So it may be hard to tell if someone is lying. 

Now... .if you know for a fact is being told... .then that statement could work.  But... .you better be right... .

It is much easier to tell if someone is being verbally abusive... than lying... .

I hope that distinction is clear... .

[Cat21]

Q1: How much of a recurring issue is this? Do you catch him in a lie vaguely like this on a daily, weekly, monthly, or yearly basis? And how often do you "bust" him on it?

If the lie/bust cycle is common, and his (bad) reaction to being busted is fairly consistent, I highly recommend a new strategy for you.

Q2: How many times have you told him how much his lying bothers/hurts you?

I ask this because BPD isn't stupidity--if you have told him dozens of times, he already knows. Simple ignorance of this fact is NOT the reason he lies to you.

1: This isn't super frequent. In fact, this is the first time (to my knowledge) that he's lied about something this "major". In general, he has trouble sticking to his word (in terms of setting up timelines for himself and then actually sticking to them), but he hasn't lied to me about his whereabouts in an out-all-night situation ever before. Perhaps that's why this stings so much.

2: Since this particular situation is new, I haven't had a conversation regarding his lying and how it hurts me. I've never "busted" him before. Now, we have had numerous conversations about him taking responsibility for his actions (ex: when he is out with friends, he'll tell me that he'll be home at a certain time, but is always late and rarely calls to say he'll be late. Doesn't apologize for being late and doesn't think it's a big deal. After discussing this many times, last week was the first time he's ever taken responsibility for this. Incidentally, this staying out all night incident happened a few days later... .)

The one that I have applied when communication becomes blaming, raging, or otherwise devaluing each other is that I will not engage in further discussion until the emotional arousal has calmed down.

I do the same thing takingandsending. And that has certainly helped! But, as you said, that approach to enforcing a boundary probably won't work in this situation. I didn't know he was lying at the time; not until after the night was over and done.

Just don't be tempted to follow him down the rabbit hole if he begins to JADE and eventually turn it on you. You don't need to and probably shouldn't explain anything. Present what you know, tell him "I want you to be honest with me" or "It's important to me that you are honest with me." and don't pursue it, don't justify it, don't do anything. You have been honest to who you are. You took care of your needs in the relationship. You are not responsible for his reaction.

Taking and sending,

Strong point!  Cat... .this will be critical.

Make sure delivery is even... .calm.  When he gets excited... .stay calm.

Yes- agreed.