Re: Dramatic change is possible(Stop reacting)

[formflier]

Continuation from:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=234643.30

I other words, we need to stop showing strong reactions to their provocations?

Even better... .don't show any reaction.  

Even better than that... try to figure out the underlying emotion so you can validate that.

Best... .when they do have a positive interaction with you... .in other words... behave properly.  Validate that... .make sure they get something positive from that.

So... .if they are not getting the reaction they "want" with provocations... .and when they act "nice" and get positive feedback.

Things will change in the r/s.  

And the power is back to you... .because they are changing because of your choices... .not their provocations!  Think about this for a while... .then I encourage you to take back the power!

[formflier]

Wow... .so she mentioned but did nothing?

Did you tell her you DIDN'T want to get divorce? 

Yes... .lots of "mentioning" and threats.  I'm pretty sure she has called some lawyers.  she left lawyer web pages up for me to "find"... .  And the one that took the cake... .was that a lawyer (supposedly) called my house and asked for her... .said he was returning her call.  We had an argument the day before with a threat... .so it may have been an actual lawyer... or not.

But yes... .lots of divorce talk.

Or did you just ignore her threats?

Yes... mostly ignored.  Sometimes said "I'm sorry you feel that way... " 

Now... to be clear... .prior to me hearing about BPD... this site... and lessons... .it would be an argument... or worse.  So... .she had a long history of getting a "reaction" from me... .and kept it up for a while after I started reacting.

Or did you agree sometimes?

Never.  She knows my stance on this.  I've clearly said it in the past... .no reason to keep repeating.  I made a "till death do us part" commitment.  "In sickness and in health... ."  I will follow through on my word...

[Moselle]

Formflier. This whole post is eye opening. Thanks for the example of positive behaviour and proactive choice.

[ziniztar]

Just wanted to give my 2 cts: dBPDbf all of a sudden texted me yesterday "is it okay if we sleep together on Wednesday? I'll come to your place."

I don't think I've ever, ever, ever had the joy of him thinking ahead +2 days (in this case almost a week) to plan and pro-actively discuss when we would see each other. Why is this happening? Because I'm not taking full responsibility for it anymore and he's getting room to breathe.

1 thing I have to add: we had a shared calendar in iCloud and I deleted that during our break. I'm going to keep it this way. Now he has to communicate with me to tell me if he wants to cancel on something.

I loved your examples in this thread, I love the progress we're both making. Keep it up

[Lucky One]

Thank You Formflyer,

What a wonderful success story.

And much, for all of us to think about, and NEW ideas to put into action.

This is GREAT

[Lucky One]

wow. Thanks for posting that. Today I felt totally hopeless so I am glad you posted this update.

I also sometimes feel hopeless.

But, then it changes. Then I've got lots of hope. Changes, everyday. Sometimes by the hour!

Stories like Formflyer's gives us lot's of hope and new ideas.

We've got to work, more on ourselves, I think. Yes, definitely!

[ziniztar]

We've got to work, more on ourselves, I think. Yes, definitely!

That really is the only way we can accomplish change in our own lives. One of my friends started dating an NPD guy. She is now reading dozens of books on NPD and 'why is it always about you'. Unfortunately she doesn't understand that there is a good reason she was drawn to him in the first place. She went to therapy 3 to 4 times, says she now knows enough about him and his condition and is ready to quit therapy. If only I could make her see that she played a part in this as well...

[formflier]

 

And... .to not try to figure out who is "more at fault"... .

Don't wait on other person... .

[Indyan]

Unfortunately she doesn't understand that there is a good reason she was drawn to him in the first place.

I have a problem with this too. I mean, how can we be attracted to someone who has PD? It's not as if we could have foreseen that they would change like this?

[formflier]

I have a problem with this too. I mean, how can we be attracted to someone who has PD? It's not as if we could have foreseen that they would change like this?

I think that you may find... .once you read lessons and learn more about the disorder that there are ways to tell and "hints" or "redflags" that we all should have paid attention to.

All part of the learning process.

[Indyan]

I think that you may find... .once you read lessons and learn more about the disorder that there are ways to tell and "hints" or "redflags" that we all should have paid attention to.

All part of the learning process.

Sure... .now that we know all about it, so much I could do a PHD dissertation on the topic!

But back then... .I knew absolutely NOTHING about all this. I put some weird behaviour down to his recent break up from a *horriiiiible* woman. He was still touchy and edgy about some things, so he said, and I believed him. It could have been the truth... .

[ziniztar]

I think that you may find... .once you read lessons and learn more about the disorder that there are ways to tell and "hints" or "redflags" that we all should have paid attention to.

All part of the learning process.

Sure... .now that we know all about it, so much I could do a PHD dissertation on the topic!

But back then... .I knew absolutely NOTHING about all this. I put some weird behaviour down to his recent break up from a *horriiiiible* woman. He was still touchy and edgy about some things, so he said, and I believed him. It could have been the truth... .

Indiyan, I dated a pathological liar once. No huge stories. Just lies everywhere about normal things, such as doing the laundry, taking a holiday and in The end - about being enrolled in school and attending classes. I really had no idea nor any clues until he started making strange excuses for not paying back 10 euro's. We were already together for over a year then.

With BPD it's different. Everyone heard the story about the ex that treated them bad - even you did. Hoe many people have you dated that started blackpainting their ex on The first date? That's not a sign of emotional maturity or boundaries. The abundant idealisation is another thing. 'Normal'   people with healthy boundaries and a good self-esteem do not need that. They even find it somewhat annoying - it is too much. We were drawn to that because of our own low self-esteem and rescuer tendencies. Believing that this person is your night in shining armour that finally understands you and will make life easier is another unhealthy expectation. We should be making ourselves happy, not put that responsibility with someone else.

As with NPD, it does not take long before the narcicism shows. Not leaving at that point is a sign of weakened self-esteem. That friend can't stop talking about how she blocked him out of his life - and three days later she talked to him again. That has nothing to do with his narciccism, and everything with her repeating her own mistakes, due to fear, unrealistic expectations, and low self-esteem. It's not just about the beginning. It's also about why and how you choose to stay. (Where I do not mean that staying is doomed to fail. Staying, complaining about The other person, and not seeing your part of the dysfunctional dance, is.)

[formflier]

  seeing your part of the dysfunctional dance, is.)

This can be hard to do... .but critical to look for... .accept what you find... .and work on dealing with it.

[Grey Kitty]

FF & Indyan,

I saw a mention of fear and wishing you could do things differently... .One of my favorite realizations as I was coming out of a beaten down abused state in my r/s was this:

I had been afraid, and generally reacting to my fears. Perhaps I should be more specific--fears of anger, dysregulation, or emotional abuse from my wife, although other fears could apply too.

Eventually I started employing boundaries and was able to protect myself.

I then noticed that I didn't like who I was very much when I was reacting to those fears. I liked who I was much better when I acknowledged the fears, but did what I felt was right despite them.

I am a much happier Grey Kitty now than I was then!

[ziniztar]

I then noticed that I didn't like who I was very much when I was reacting to those fears. I liked who I was much better when I acknowledged the fears, but did what I felt was right despite them.

I recognize this a lot. I've always suffered from huge abandonment fears but felt i was entitled to the care/nurturing/comfort I was looking for and that I had a right to demand this. Now in T I am learning that I can't project whatever I feel towards my father and stepmother, to dBPDbf. Or friends, for that matter.

It's dangerous when people advise others to 'follow your heart'. I learnt 2 years ago that that hadn't worked for me, but I didn't know what to change yet. Now I know there is a difference between following your gut feeling (intuition), and following your emotions. Since I started not always following my emotions (fears mostly, guilt and shame too) I feel so much more together. Like an adult. Powerful.

[Lucky One]

I then noticed that I didn't like who I was very much when I was reacting to those fears. I liked who I was much better when I acknowledged the fears, but did what I felt was right despite them.

I recognize this a lot. I've always suffered from huge abandonment fears ... .

Abandonment - I think this scares most of us. Even the strongest.

A very strong Defence Mechanism (weapon), that pwBPD will use to relieve their pain and suffering. Especially when we start running around, doing everything we can to avoid the abandoning they threaten us with.

They love it. Rather let me put that in another way - It helps them relieve the pain / suffering they are experiencing.

We've just got to have our boundaries and limits in place. I think that is very important.

Otherwise we will suffer. To the point of depression and even insanity. I've been there, and sometimes still right in the middle of it.

But I'm learning a lot from you guys and this site. Takes time, I guess. Thanks.

[Moselle]

Abandonment - I think this scares most of us. Even the strongest.

A very strong Defence Mechanism (weapon), that pwBPD will use to relieve their pain and suffering. Especially when we start running around, doing everything we can to avoid the abandoning they threaten us with.

They love it. Rather let me put that in another way - It helps them relieve the pain / suffering they are experiencing.

We've just got to have our boundaries and limits in place. I think that is very important.

Otherwise we will suffer. To the point of depression and even insanity. I've been there, and sometimes still right in the middle of it.

Wow, this is really insightful Lucky One.

We have to disengage to the point where we are no longer affected by the raging, manipulations and mind games.  But stay engaged enough to validate and empathise. A delicate balance to negotiate. After years with no boundaries, it's easy to go rigid with boundaries and become mechanical about it.

You're right. I'm also scared of abandonment. How did you find out that abandonment scares you?

[Indyan]

We have to disengage to the point where we are no longer affected by the raging, manipulations and mind games.  But stay engaged enough to validate and empathise. A delicate balance to negotiate.

wow, is this possible?

[Moselle]

wow, is this possible?

If we sent someone to the moon, this must be possible 

I'm still learning Indyan, but the Stop walking on eggshells book says the three C's and the three G's

I didn't Cause it.

I can't Control it.

I can't Cure it.

Get off the BP's back.

Get out of the BP's way.

Get on with your own life.

[Lucky One]

Abandonment - I think this scares most of us. Even the strongest.

A very strong Defence Mechanism (weapon), that pwBPD will use to relieve their pain and suffering. Especially when we start running around, doing everything we can to avoid the abandoning they threaten us with.

They love it. Rather let me put that in another way - It helps them relieve the pain / suffering they are experiencing.

We've just got to have our boundaries and limits in place. I think that is very important.

Otherwise we will suffer. To the point of depression and even insanity. I've been there, and sometimes still right in the middle of it.

You're right. I'm also scared of abandonment. How did you find out that abandonment scares you?

I FEEL it.  I THINK it.

I feel then think it- or - I think then feel it. I've done 4/5th of CBT course on this site. The last section will be completed this week. Hopefully this will help and / or relieve the sadness / depression, I'm feeling .

I'm scared of being alone and being rejected. I've "GOT TO HAVE" someone, who really loves me. Then I FEEL good. Well, I'm working to change this thinking, I got from a young age.

I was rejected by both my parents when I was a child. So I guess this has something to do with it!

When my uBPDw accuses me falsely, and says she's going to leave, I panic! And start running around, trying to save everything.

This is normal thinking, to me - I've been 38 years in this relationship. 32 years married.

The thinking - that's too much to throw away!

But NOT so much anymore, since I came to this site. I'm getting stronger and wiser and unspoken boundaries and limits are being put in place.

Only Time will tell, if they work. It's different in every case. We all are so unique. Even our relationships!

[Moselle]

I feel then think it- or - I think then feel it. I've done 4/5th of CBT course on this site. The last section will be completed this week. Hopefully this will help and / or relieve the sadness / depression, I'm feeling .

Is this the MoodGym one? I'm really keen to try it. I've scheduled some time to have a look at it today.

Awareness is so important in all of this. I'm quite surprised how much I managed to deny, or pretend it wasn't happening, over the years.

Well done - you sound well on your way!

[waverider]

We have to disengage to the point where we are no longer affected by the raging, manipulations and mind games.  But stay engaged enough to validate and empathise. A delicate balance to negotiate.

wow, is this possible?

You are unlikely to have 100% success but you can get a close enough to it for it not to be a major stresser. More importantly when it is, you will know why, and come back down quickly and wash it away.

[Lucky One]

I feel then think it- or - I think then feel it. I've done 4/5th of CBT course on this site. The last section will be completed this week. Hopefully this will help and / or relieve the sadness / depression, I'm feeling .

Is this the MoodGym one? I'm really keen to try it. I've scheduled some time to have a look at it today.

Awareness is so important in all of this. I'm quite surprised how much I managed to deny, or pretend it wasn't happening, over the years.

Well done - you sound well on your way!

Yes - it's Mood Gym.

Afraid it cannot be done in one day - the brain has to process it slowly!

Then we've got to make sense of it. Then it's got to become meaningful.

Meaning - We hold up the process - because our thinking is stubbornly pulling us back.

Meaning - When it starts working it becomes meaningful.

Meaning - In my case - When I THINK and then FEEL I'm becoming less depressed, I KNOW it's starting to work.

This will give it meaning, to me.

But it is a process - and therefore - takes a little bit of time, revision, practicing the method.

It's good, but you've got to feel it. Think it! Get rid of the skewed and warped thinking. Otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time with it.

Take your time. At least four weeks. Minimum.

When I'm finished with this I'm going to do DBT. Also for free. Why! Because it is for people with BPD.

Sorry to say we've all got some BPD and other PD disorders to varying degrees. Some strong, some weak, some nothing or almost next to nothing

So, I reckon, while I'm sorting these other issues out and learning as much as I can, I might as well sort myself out, as best I can.

I just want to MAKE SURE this NEVER HAPPENS again.

It's too painful - especially at my age. I'll die of a heart attack.  

I WANT peace and quiet.

I'll worry about my NEEDS later!

It's truly hard. I never dreamt I'd be going through this in the last years of my life. Terrible!

But that's where I am - so I have to face it and deal with it. There is NO OTHER CHOICE!

I think that's what most of us are doing, on this excellent site.

[waverider]

I feel then think it- or - I think then feel it. I've done 4/5th of CBT course on this site. The last section will be completed this week. Hopefully this will help and / or relieve the sadness / depression, I'm feeling .

Is this the MoodGym one? I'm really keen to try it. I've scheduled some time to have a look at it today.

Awareness is so important in all of this. I'm quite surprised how much I managed to deny, or pretend it wasn't happening, over the years.

Well done - you sound well on your way!

Yes - it's Mood Gym.

Afraid it cannot be done in one day - the brain has to process it slowly!

Then we've got to make sense of it. Then it's got to become meaningful.

Meaning - We hold up the process - because our thinking is stubbornly pulling us back.

Meaning - When it starts working it becomes meaningful.

Meaning - In my case - When I THINK and then FEEL I'm becoming less depressed, I KNOW it's starting to work.

This will give it meaning, to me.

But it is a process - and therefore - takes a little bit of time, revision, practicing the method.

It's good, but you've got to feel it. Think it! Get rid of the skewed and warped thinking. Otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time with it.

Take your time. At least four weeks. Minimum.

When I'm finished with this I'm going to do DBT. Also for free. Why! Because it is for people with BPD.

Sorry to say we've all got some BPD and other PD disorders to varying degrees. Some strong, some weak, some nothing or almost next to nothing

So, I reckon, while I'm sorting these other issues out and learning as much as I can, I might as well sort myself out, as best I can.

I just want to MAKE SURE this NEVER HAPPENS again.

It's too painful - especially at my age. I'll die of a heart attack.  

I WANT peace and quiet.

I'll worry about my NEEDS later!

It's truly hard. I never dreamt I'd be going through this in the last years of my life. Terrible!

But that's where I am - so I have to face it and deal with it. There is NO OTHER CHOICE!

I think that's what most of us are doing, on this excellent site.

A very upbeat and positive post that brings it all down to the point that we are flushing out our minds, and strengthening healthy thinking.

This will have positive flow on effects to your general outlook on life.

A mind detox in effect

[Moselle]

You are unlikely to have 100% success but you can get a close enough to it for it not to be a major stresser. More importantly when it is, you will know why, and come back down quickly and wash it away.

Wow, that seems like a powerful place to be. Where it isn't a major stressor. Is that also linked to our self esteem? Where it doesn't trigger the childhood wound which attracted me in the first place to the idolization phase?

[waverider]

You are unlikely to have 100% success but you can get a close enough to it for it not to be a major stresser. More importantly when it is, you will know why, and come back down quickly and wash it away.

Wow, that seems like a powerful place to be. Where it isn't a major stressor. Is that also linked to our self esteem? Where it doesn't trigger the childhood wound which attracted me in the first place to the idolization phase?

Self esteem is a big part of it along with separating the disorder from the person. This is why I dont like the use of the term " a Borderline" to describe the person, they are not the disorder, they are a person with borderline personality disorder.

[Lucky One]

This will have positive flow on effects to your general outlook on life.

A mind detox in effect

Yes, I agree with that, fully. "Because" it works. Proof.

I reach retirement age, at the end of next month. Only two more pay days left for me!

The CEO, Chief Executive Officer, has just asked me to stay on for another two to three years, without me asking.

He thinks, my health is good, my attitude is good and my work and the department I run, is good.

I wasn't even thinking that, I went to his office to go and find out if he was starting to feel better after a bout of the Flu.

Amazing how things can work out.

Which just shows, that we cannot be in control of everything, nor do we have to be, to have good things happen to us!

JUST  A   THOUGHT.

I started to have a look at DBT last night, by doing a detailed "overview" analysis of what the course covers from the Wikipeadia site.

The actual course I'll be doing comes from the DBTselfhelp site. This is a huge piece of work. But I'm going to do it, because I really liked what I saw.

Maybe take a year, or more even, because I want to fully embrace it - so that it becomes part of me!

This terminology, such as Dearman, Pleasemaster, Accepts, RCT's and many others, are now beginning to make sense (meaningful), and I now know where these terms come from - DBT training.

I really FEEL that I am starting to make some "really serious progress" with myself. Did not know about all these things, before I came to BPD family. 

Amazing - at this age - I might even end up perfect! Who can say

[ziniztar]

This is why I dont like the use of the term " a Borderline" to describe the person, they are not the disorder, they are a person with borderline personality disorder.

Do you remember the detergent commercials in the 90’s of a piece of clothing with a stain on it? Coffee, grass, wine...

They zoomed in on the fibre of the clothing to show how persistent the stain was.

That’s how I look at BPD. It’s not part of the fibre. It has manifested on a very deep level, but it “is” not the fibre.

It’s also how I look at the both of us dealing with BPD. Let’s say you have a big, nasty grass stain on your favourite sweater.

Nobody would throw it out immediately, right?

No, first you wash it with your regular detergent.

When it gets out of the machine and the stain is not gone, you can get disappointed. But hey, it’s your favourite sweater  . Let’s try something else.

Vanish Oxy Action, bleach, or maybe you call your mom for some advice.

It’s also how I look at the possible outcome of treatment and what our relationship could be like.

If a stain is this persistent, this bad, it will never really leave. It will always be there and you have to accept it will. It will never be the favourite sweater you thought it was.

But making an effort to make the stain disappear on the outside is worth a shot.

Zooming in on the fibre again might reveal the old stain, but the sweater is fine on the outside and you’re very comfortable wearing it.

The thing is. If the clothing gets out of the machine and isn’t clean, you have to try something else.

Some people tend to re-use the same detergent against better judgement over and over again, only to get disappointed again when getting the clothing out of the washing machine. 

Can you really blame the sweater at that point?   

[waverider]

This is why I dont like the use of the term " a Borderline" to describe the person, they are not the disorder, they are a person with borderline personality disorder.

Do you remember the detergent commercials in the 90’s of a piece of clothing with a stain on it? Coffee, grass, wine...

They zoomed in on the fibre of the clothing to show how persistent the stain was.

That’s how I look at BPD. It’s not part of the fibre. It has manifested on a very deep level, but it “is” not the fibre.

It’s also how I look at the both of us dealing with BPD. Let’s say you have a big, nasty grass stain on your favourite sweater.

Nobody would throw it out immediately, right?

No, first you wash it with your regular detergent.

When it gets out of the machine and the stain is not gone, you can get disappointed. But hey, it’s your favourite sweater  . Let’s try something else.

Vanish Oxy Action, bleach, or maybe you call your mom for some advice.

It’s also how I look at the possible outcome of treatment and what our relationship could be like.

If a stain is this persistent, this bad, it will never really leave. It will always be there and you have to accept it will. It will never be the favourite sweater you thought it was.

But making an effort to make the stain disappear on the outside is worth a shot.

Zooming in on the fibre again might reveal the old stain, but the sweater is fine on the outside and you’re very comfortable wearing it.

The thing is. If the clothing gets out of the machine and isn’t clean, you have to try something else.

Some people tend to re-use the same detergent against better judgement over and over again, only to get disappointed again when getting the clothing out of the washing machine. 

Can you really blame the sweater at that point?   

Love that analogy... I might pinch it someday

[Moselle]

This is why I dont like the use of the term " a Borderline" to describe the person, they are not the disorder, they are a person with borderline personality disorder.

Do you remember the detergent commercials in the 90’s of a piece of clothing with a stain on it? Coffee, grass, wine...

They zoomed in on the fibre of the clothing to show how persistent the stain was.

That’s how I look at BPD. It’s not part of the fibre. It has manifested on a very deep level, but it “is” not the fibre.

It’s also how I look at the both of us dealing with BPD. Let’s say you have a big, nasty grass stain on your favourite sweater.

Nobody would throw it out immediately, right?

No, first you wash it with your regular detergent.

When it gets out of the machine and the stain is not gone, you can get disappointed. But hey, it’s your favourite sweater  . Let’s try something else.

Vanish Oxy Action, bleach, or maybe you call your mom for some advice.

It’s also how I look at the possible outcome of treatment and what our relationship could be like.

If a stain is this persistent, this bad, it will never really leave. It will always be there and you have to accept it will. It will never be the favourite sweater you thought it was.

But making an effort to make the stain disappear on the outside is worth a shot.

Zooming in on the fibre again might reveal the old stain, but the sweater is fine on the outside and you’re very comfortable wearing it.

The thing is. If the clothing gets out of the machine and isn’t clean, you have to try something else.

Some people tend to re-use the same detergent against better judgement over and over again, only to get disappointed again when getting the clothing out of the washing machine. 

Can you really blame the sweater at that point?   

Love that analogy... I might pinch it someday

Thanks for sharing Ziniztar! That is such a healthy way of looking at it.