Tired of Hearing about Him

[vortex of confusion]

I wasn't sure what to title this. The gist is that I am getting really tired of hearing about him and his struggles. I know that he is dealing with a lot. He has found a different sponsor and is making a lot more progress with his 12 steps. He thinks he is almost done with step 4. And, he made an appointment and visited with a different therapist. All of this is very good and I am glad that he is taking some initiative.

My problem is that he wants to talk about how great he is doing. He wants to talk about his process and his healing and his recovery. I get very little opportunity to have any input into anything. Last night, I said something like, "I don't understand how people can treat others so poorly and pretty much throw them away when they are no longer useful." I was referring to how he had treated me as well as other women. He would have email conversations with women and if I said anything, he would delete his email account and then disappear on them as though they didn't even exist. No, he didn't owe those women anything but I think it is very rude to behave like that towards anyone. He could have at least sent them an email and said, "Hey, thanks for talking to me but I am going to stop emailing you so I can focus on whatever." I say that knowing what it feels like to talk to somebody via email and become friends only to have them disappear like a fart in the wind. His response was, "I think most people do it. After all, we live in a disposable society." I validated and agreed in a roundabout way.

The point is that I am getting really, really tired of hearing about him. I feel like I am trying to raise our kids and keep things together at home while he is off focusing on himself and his needs. If he takes time out to help, then I get to hear all about how great he is doing and how all of his work is paying off. I think it is all a bunch of crap. I feel like he is using the 12 step program and therapy as a way to get attention and say, "Ooo, look at me. I am great and wonderful and I am doing all of these things."

All the while, there is little or no discussion of the impact that his actions have had on me or our kids or anything else. Last night, he was talking about how he can tell people in his meetings that he used his wife to act out and fulfill his voyeuristic needs. The way he said it completely baffled me. He said it so matter of factly. It was as though he was talking about going to the beach or some other mundane activity. Sometimes, I feel like I am supposed to feel sorry for him or bad for him. It is like my struggles and my concerns don't even exist.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MissyM]

It is perfectly appropriate to set a boundary, i.e. that sounds like something to talk to your sponsor about, your therapist about or your group and not me.  In the beginning I had to tell my husband that a few times, I do not care for the reasons he has done the things he has.  All of that is for him to process in therapy, 12 step and with his sponsor.  He then went the other extreme and tells me nothing.  We are moving towards doing a F.A.S.T. check in based on Milton Magness work.  It is short, just 10 minutes once a week.  It is for him to share about how is recovery is going and what he is doing, and for me to just thank him for sharing.

Are you getting any kind of help?  Really, I would not be doing as well as I am without COSA, individual therapy with a CSAT, group therapy for SA spouses (using Claudia Black's workbook) and step study.  It sounds like a lot but I started with therapy once a week, for a year and then added in COSA, then group therapy and step study.  I only attend individual therapy every other week or once a month, after 3 years.  The trauma of dealing with a spouse like this needs help processing.

[ziniztar]

I get this. I get tired of him when he pretends to be in a positive mode because it is always negative when he’s alone at home and around me.

When was the last time he got really excited about something do to with me?

Whenever we’re together I get the sad, depressed guy that snaps over nothing and feels worthless.

When this happens now I think ‘okay, whatever, I’ll start doing the laundry’.

It works, because I don’t lose energy anymore over something minor, I’ve stopped trying to make him feel better.

It does painfully show how little good there is left in our relationship.

I’m working very hard on this r/s but I’m also still in huge doubt for how long I really want to do this.

I’ve committed myself to this r/s until December 15th. Give him and me two months to change some patterns. He is switching therapists and trying to start up his own business. Big changes, that I want to go through before deciding this is not worth it anymore.

So, yes, I understand the whole ‘geez let’s stop talking about YOUR life and could you maybe also be interested in whatever the hell is happening in mine, too?’ 

[vortex of confusion]

So, yes, I understand the whole ‘geez let’s stop talking about YOUR life and could you maybe also be interested in whatever the hell is happening in mine, too?’ 

Thanks! Knowing that I am not alone makes me feel a little better. And if we talk about what is going on in my life, I would like to not be invalidated. So many times I have tried to share something only to have him devalue it. When I got my current part time job, I was so unbelievably excited and happy. When I told him, the first thing he said was, "What about me going to my thing on Tuesday nights?" He completely deflated all of my excitement by making it all about him and what he would have to sacrifice so I can work three days a week.

MissyM: Thanks for the input. I value what you have to say as you have been working at this stuff for a while. How do you find a balance between getting an update on his progress and having him go on and on and on. I am genuinely curious about my husband's progress but at the same time I don't want it to become this long drawn out thing where it is all about him. He likes to come home after his meetings and debrief. I don't mind. What I mind is the tendency for all conversations to go back to being about him. I know it is the self centeredness of whatever is going on in his head.

[MaroonLiquid]

I get this. I get tired of him when he pretends to be in a positive mode because it is always negative when he’s alone at home and around me.

When was the last time he got really excited about something do to with me?

Whenever we’re together I get the sad, depressed guy that snaps over nothing and feels worthless.

When this happens now I think ‘okay, whatever, I’ll start doing the laundry’.

It works, because I don’t lose energy anymore over something minor, I’ve stopped trying to make him feel better.

It does painfully show how little good there is left in our relationship.

I’m working very hard on this r/s but I’m also still in huge doubt for how long I really want to do this.

I’ve committed myself to this r/s until December 15th. Give him and me two months to change some patterns. He is switching therapists and trying to start up his own business. Big changes, that I want to go through before deciding this is not worth it anymore.

So, yes, I understand the whole ‘geez let’s stop talking about YOUR life and could you maybe also be interested in whatever the hell is happening in mine, too?’ 

I understand how frustrating their self-centeredness is.  Last time my wife and I saw each other, and last time we communicated, it has been all about her, her job, HER!  I went back and thought about it, and over the last 3-1/2 months, I can count on two fingers how many times my wife has asked how I'm doing.  And I don't think either time she was really that interested.  It always reverted back to her.  And she says I'm narcissistic... .

[ziniztar]

The thing is, the self-centeredness can lead to resentment building up. You can also stop reacting to their story and start telling your own.

I told my dBPDbf very clear at the beginning of our r/s I value when somebody asks me 'how r u doing?'. He knows I hate it about my father - he never asks me this, ever. So dBPDbf asks me a lot, usually after he spilled out his own issues first (I'm okay with that).

The clearer you are about what you value, the better. The earlier you say this, the better, as it allows you to convey the message without built up resentment, and with a little warmth.

So in stead of 'Why are we talking about you again' or 'Why don't you ask me about MY day?', you can say during regular dinner 'I'd really like it if you would ask me about my day sometimes.' It's like teachimg him/her in very clear, warm statements what you would appreciate. Their emotions will always overflow, but remember that the self-centeredness is due to that, and they really don't always want to be like this.

[vortex of confusion]

The thing is, the self-centeredness can lead to resentment building up. You can also stop reacting to their story and start telling your own.

Hmmm, thinking about how this would work. I have gotten to a point where I simply listen to his stories and provide some validation and a nod here and there.

The clearer you are about what you value, the better. The earlier you say this, the better, as it allows you to convey the message without built up resentment, and with a little warmth.

I have been with my spouse for close to 18 years. I have tried to be very clear but it is like he does not hear me. He will ask about my day but I have learned not to share much. If I share too much, it seems like he will find a way to tie it into a story about himself or his day or his work or his something.

So in stead of 'Why are we talking about you again' or 'Why don't you ask me about MY day?', you can say during regular dinner 'I'd really like it if you would ask me about my day sometimes.' It's like teachimg him/her in very clear, warm statements what you would appreciate. Their emotions will always overflow, but remember that the self-centeredness is due to that, and they really don't always want to be like this.

I have told him in moments when things were okay, "hey, I would really like it if I could share with you more. I'd love to be able to share my excitements with you." For a while, I was writing regularly on my blog. I would let him know how much it meant to me when he read them. For a while, it would be a source of conversation but it turns into something about him.

I question the idea that "they really don't always want to be like this".

There are times when I think my husband is really getting something out of it. We have been together long enough and I have told him in a lot of different ways that I want to be able to share with him. I have been told to treat him how I want to be treated. That resulted in him wanting more and more and more. I have tried to be clear with him when I tell him, "I would like to be able to talk without being interrupted." I don't know how much more clear I can be.

[MissyM]

I

am genuinely curious about my husband's progress but at the same time I don't want it to become this long drawn out thing where it is all about him. He likes to come home after his meetings and debrief. I don't mind. What I mind is the tendency for all conversations to go back to being about him. I know it is the self centeredness of whatever is going on in his head.

Look up Milton Magness, his book has the FAST check in.  If you tell your husband you would like to do the check in and it is to only be for 10 minutes a week, then he talks and shares with you and you just thank him for sharing at the end.  This allows him to feel heard and can limit the discussion.  Anytime he brings it up outside of that, you can just say that it is for sharing at the check in.  When my husband turns conversations around to him while I am sharing, I now stop him and say I wasn't finished sharing and would like him to listen.  I am firm but not angry.  He has enough recovery to know that he is naturally very selfish and is able to stop when I point it out.  Hopefully the new people your husband is surrounding himself will help him learn to deal with his selfishness.  Addicts are selfish and they have to work very hard to step out of themselves, it is a big focus point in recovery.  This takes a lot of time and effort for both of you to change the way you communicate.  You have a right to speak up and be heard, backing down and letting him dominate every conversation isn't healthy for either of you.

[Grey Kitty]

voc,

I think you want your H to grow up and be a fully equal partner to you in your r/s. Yes this is reasonable for you to want. No, I don't think he's there today 

After 18 years, it probably won't happen overnight! Instead it will be at best a long process of healing for him, in bits in starts.

My suggestion is that you focus now on something you can do today or this week, to help yourself: If you are tired of hearing about what he's doing right now... .either gently re-direct the conversation, or clearly say that you don't want to talk about it now.

Most importantly, do this not because of what he is saying... .do it because of what you are feeling!

[ziniztar]

Hmmm, thinking about how this would work. I have gotten to a point where I simply listen to his stories and provide some validation and a nod here and there.

Get away from that point again .

If I share too much, it seems like he will find a way to tie it into a story about himself or his day or his work or his something.

I have told him in moments when things were okay, "hey, I would really like it if I could share with you more. I'd love to be able to share my excitements with you." For a while, I was writing regularly on my blog. I would let him know how much it meant to me when he read them. For a while, it would be a source of conversation but it turns into something about him.

So what could you do when he starts talking about himself again, and your story hasn't finished?

I question the idea that "they really don't always want to be like this".

...

There are times when I think my husband is really getting something out of it. We have been together long enough and I have told him in a lot of different ways that I want to be able to share with him. I have been told to treat him how I want to be treated. That resulted in him wanting more and more and more. I have tried to be clear with him when I tell him, "I would like to be able to talk without being interrupted." I don't know how much more clear I can be.

That sounds like quite some resentment built up, which makes total sense after 18 years  . I think many people on these boards here get this. That resentment is hindering changes in this situation now, though. So if you can find a place in your body that is willing to overlook that, it will help you in the actions that will be answers to the questions above. 

[vortex of confusion]

That sounds like quite some resentment built up, which makes total sense after 18 years  . I think many people on these boards here get this. That resentment is hindering changes in this situation now, though. So if you can find a place in your body that is willing to overlook that, it will help you in the actions that will be answers to the questions above. 

It is a lot of resentment and I don't know how to get past it. That is why I waffle between staying and leaving. I know I can't leave any time soon so I have to find ways to be able to stay and maintain my sanity.

I am not finding a place where I can overlook or move beyond certain things. I have found that place so many times before. That is why I have been able to stay for so long. Things will go weird. I will get upset and insist on changes. Most of the time, I have tried to focus on being nice, doing more, being more forgiving, and a whole bunch of other things that have been focused on me. I used to repeat the quote, "The only person I can change is myself" over and over and over because I was trying to get out of the mindset that I wanted him to change or be different. Finding these boards has helped me feel not so crazy but it seems that they have removed all of the hope that I used to cling to when I was feeling down.

Over the years, my husband has done just enough to keep me around. He will do great for a while and then we will both slip back into old patterns and we are right back where we started. Every time we slip back into certain patterns, the resentment that I have let go of seems to come back ten fold.

[ziniztar]

I am not finding a place where I can overlook or move beyond certain things. I have found that place so many times before. That is why I have been able to stay for so long. Things will go weird. I will get upset and insist on changes. Most of the time, I have tried to focus on being nice, doing more, being more forgiving, and a whole bunch of other things that have been focused on me.

The thing is, this is all behaviour related to him. Being nice - to him. Doing more - for him or the relationship. Being more forgiving - to him. You have to change your behaviour not towards him, but to help yourself. I've recently learned that codependant people tend to 'adapt' to their spouses because they probably learnt somewhere in childhood that was a smart thing to do. So the struggle some people live with, is "do I adapt, or do I leave?". I'm in a process of learning now that there is a third option; the one where you actively voice the changes you want to see and also behave in that way.

I'll give you an example outside of r/s. When it comes to my career I have been called a 'hipo' a dozen times. I felt like I was able to choose where I wanted to work. So after working somewhere for a while, and not getting the opportunities I felt I deserved, I would leave the company and move on to the next. This has happened 3 times now. This has worked for me since jobhopping at the beginning of your career is okay, and it makes me someone who is willing to take risks when making a decision. Sometimes that's good.

But the last time I was wondering; maybe I could have stayed longer and negotiated a little bit more. I made the decision to leave without making clear to my manager what I wanted. He didn't even know I was thinking about it, and, given my abandonment tendencies and overall sense of distrust towards the world it would actually be good for me to stick with a company for a while. Get to know people, feel at home. I was quite sad to have to leave the company but I felt like I had no other choice.

Now, I'm telling my seniors what I want to learn. What I want to develop. What I don't like about them - in a nice, understanding way. I told my senior manager (also in charge of my performance rating) that I was not okay with him being late to the appointments he had with me. That I understand he is busy, that I get the feeling of being overwhelmed with work, but that I feel he should reschedule the meeting - not get in late 15 mins. Two years ago I never would have been able to do that out of sheer fear.

This, you can also do with your spouse. You've already started telling him what you would like, that's a huge start  . Now you have to act when he's not behaving in such a way. Don't demand or insist, since that won't result in the behaviour you'd maybe like to see. If he responds to your story by changing it to him again, simply start your next sentence with 'So, getting back to me... '. Or: 'I'm going to finish my story now.'

I used to repeat the quote, "The only person I can change is myself" over and over and over because I was trying to get out of the mindset that I wanted him to change or be different.

Keep that up  . You can't expect him to change since he can get away with not changing. Make him not get away with it!

PS: My dBPDbf calls me sometimes when he's doing groceries (unfortunately we sometimes have to due to different work schedules, it's our only chance). When he is at the cashier he talks to her without notifying me, which ends me      and then after two sentences I get 'oh he's not talking to me'. I HATE THAT. I feel ignored, disrespected. I've 'whined' about this a few times and it never changed anything. A few weeks ago I calmly told him: "Hey, would you please notify me when you'll place an order or pay the groceries?". When he started doing it again, I said: 'OK so you're doing groceries, I'm gonna hang up now.' AND I DID. What did that teach him? That he better respect me and what I kindly ask to him.

Since then, I've had two conversations with him where he said 'hey girl, give me a minute' and he started talking to the cashier. I didn't know what was happening to me. It was so good!

So, again: Make him not get away with it!

[vortex of confusion]

The thing is, this is all behaviour related to him. Being nice - to him. Doing more - for him or the relationship. Being more forgiving - to him. You have to change your behaviour not towards him, but to help yourself. I've recently learned that codependant people tend to 'adapt' to their spouses because they probably learnt somewhere in childhood that was a smart thing to do. So the struggle some people live with, is "do I adapt, or do I leave?". I'm in a process of learning now that there is a third option; the one where you actively voice the changes you want to see and also behave in that way.

In order to behave in the ways that will let him know what I want and expect, I have to become a complete and total b**ch. I have to act like his mother and boss him around and be more controlling and domineering than his mother. I can't keep that up. No matter how hard I have tried, it doesn't work for me. It isn't adapting to him. It is me trying to be me and not some horrible b**ch that I can't live with.

This, you can also do with your spouse. You've already started telling him what you would like, that's a huge start  . Now you have to act when he's not behaving in such a way. Don't demand or insist, since that won't result in the behaviour you'd maybe like to see. If he responds to your story by changing it to him again, simply start your next sentence with 'So, getting back to me... '. Or: 'I'm going to finish my story now.'

I guess I have to train him like a dog? That is not how I like to treat people. I'd rather not talk to him at all than to have to play those kinds of games with him. Why interrupt somebody so I can finish my story when he clearly has no interest in hearing what I have to say. I do not like to force myself or my stories on others.

Keep that up  . You can't expect him to change since he can get away with not changing. Make him not get away with it!

Make him not get away with it? That is all about power and control. How does one make another person NOT get away with it? There are a lot of things that I don't tolerate. However, there are also a lot of things that make absolutely no difference to me.

My husband has interrupted me on the phone to talk to somebody else. I will hang up on him. If he calls back, I will tell him, "You were talking to somebody else so I hung up."

I have tried all sorts of things (mean, nice, etc.) to not let him get away with stuff. Frankly, it doesn't matter what I do. He is going to do what he does. No amount of me changing my behavior or disallowing things is going to make an ounce of difference. This isn't something new to me. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "Whoa is me, I don't like the way I am being treated." This is stuff that I have been reading about and researching about for a really long time. I have tried all sorts of things and the only thing that seems to make sense is to leave because my husband is incapable of intimacy and he is incapable of seeing beyond himself. And, he is not willing to really put forth much effort.

[MissyM]

I have tried all sorts of things (mean, nice, etc.) to not let him get away with stuff. Frankly, it doesn't matter what I do. He is going to do what he does. No amount of me changing my behavior or disallowing things is going to make an ounce of difference. This isn't something new to me. I didn't just wake up one day and say, "Whoa is me, I don't like the way I am being treated." This is stuff that I have been reading about and researching about for a really long time. I have tried all sorts of things and the only thing that seems to make sense is to leave because my husband is incapable of intimacy and he is incapable of seeing beyond himself. And, he is not willing to really put forth much effort.

I hear your frustration and really identify with it.  I contorted myself upside down and sideways for my dBPDh.  It wasn't until I stopped turning myself upside down and learned boundaries and a new way to behave, that change has occurred.  I think that is the common thing around here.  Not being reactive but knowing ourselves and responding accordingly.  It takes practice to change our side of the dance.  I agree about the intimacy issue and lack thereof. 

[vortex of confusion]

I hear your frustration and really identify with it.  I contorted myself upside down and sideways for my dBPDh.  It wasn't until I stopped turning myself upside down and learned boundaries and a new way to behave, that change has occurred.  I think that is the common thing around here.  Not being reactive but knowing ourselves and responding accordingly.  It takes practice to change our side of the dance.  I agree about the intimacy issue and lack thereof. 

Didn't he have to get into some kind of serious recovery program first?

There are times when I feel like a walking robot. I see myself not reacting in the moment but I have noticed that I have started making snippy little passive aggressive remarks. It is odd because he will respond to them and actually have a conversation with me when I am being a mega b**ch.

Today, I am extra frustrated because he has had to stay home all day to play in some tournament for one of his online games. I spent the day taking one of the kids to find her Halloween costume. When we got home, he promised to take her to this one store to see if they had a certain accessory. It came time for his game to start so he put her off until tomorrow. I am not holding my breath. Really, that is the part that I have the biggest trouble with. He will say that he is going to do something and then not do it. He has been talking about mowing the lawn for over a month now and still hasn't done it. In the past, I would have gotten mad and done it myself. When he was talking about it yesterday, I told him, "I don't want to hear about it. You have been talking about this for a month now. I want to see you do it." And he started going on about his game (like a kid would) and I told him, "I don't care about your game. I don't want to hear about it."

And, that leaves me sitting here on the computer spending another Saturday night watching him play his games. I have been talking to the kids and sewing and doing my own thing but it really gets on my nerves when he sits there playing his games. I said something earlier and his response, "What are you upset about? I'm still doing stuff for the kids." Um, yeah, he will get up and help them get stuff from the kitchen or open stuff for them but they have to ask him and he gets up long enough to help them and then sits right back down at his game.

How do I change my side of things in that? I've tried raising hell about it. That doesn't work. I've tried ignoring it. That doesn't work. I've tried to gently talk to him about the fact that the kids would like to spend time with him. That doesn't work.

[ziniztar]

I don't like it that my advice is being called controlling. This is stuff I've been talking about with T's and that resonate with boundary setting on these pages.

Good luck with your struggle.

[123Phoebe]

Hi vortex of confusion,

It sounds like you're just sort of over it all and hey, that's your right!  I've mentioned a few times that if I were getting advice on how to better relate to my exh, I'd feel totally confused and really p'd off.  I tried with him as much as I could or knew how to, but the bottom time in that relationship was that I was tired of it, of him and wanted out.  Just didn't feel confident in ending it for all kinds of reasons, fear being the main component.  Finally realizing that I feared staying with him more than leaving; knew there was a better life ahead without him in it and have had no regrets.

Is there a chance that fear is holding you back from making certain decisions?  Are you in love with your husband?

[vortex of confusion]

Is there a chance that fear is holding you back from making certain decisions?  Are you in love with your husband?

I am afraid of being able to financially support and care for 4 children on my own.

No, I do not feel like I am in love with my husband any more. I was hoping that going through the lessons and reading and participating here would help me rekindle some of that love. The more I work on myself, the less I have those loving feelings.

[vortex of confusion]

I don't like it that my advice is being called controlling. This is stuff I've been talking about with T's and that resonate with boundary setting on these pages.

Good luck with your struggle.

I am sorry that you feel that way. I have tried to set boundaries with him. I have no problems setting boundaries in any other area of my life. I know how to deal with my husband and it requires me to be a controlling b**ch. I have had friends and family members tell me that I just need to take better control of the situation and tell him what to do. Basically, be his mother and take care of him.

[MissyM]

Didn't he have to get into some kind of serious recovery program first?

Yes, but my recovery came first.  Once I really got some help to understand my role in the dynamic and recovered from my codependency, this made me be willing to have boundaries and detach from the outcome.  The huge shift in me created a shift in our relationship and a shift in my dBPDh.  The CSAT I see said that this is how it works, that when one partner changes there is a change in the other partner.  Now, sometimes that change is that the addict can't stand the partner being healthier and they leave.  Other times, the addict sees that their spouse is doing well in recovery and wants the same thing.  Either way, the change and recovery have been good for me, good for my husband and most importantly good for our children.

[Grey Kitty]

I have no problems setting boundaries in any other area of my life. I know how to deal with my husband and it requires me to be a controlling b**ch. I have had friends and family members tell me that I just need to take better control of the situation and tell him what to do. Basically, be his mother and take care of him.

I do believe that you have figured out how to be a "controlling b**ch" with your H. (Your words, not mine!)

I'd also like to note that you don't sound at all happy about doing it. And I wouldn't be either!

From my perspective, enforcing boundaries is not the same as being controlling at all. I've sure heard the accusation (from the disordered target of the boundary enforcement) before, but that doesn't make it true.

Are you ready to try something different?

[maxsterling]

Quick input here -

1) He's going to a 12-step program.  So does my fiance.  I go to a 12 step program myself, and it helps me understand the whole process, and understand her, and just be amongst others who have been through the same as me.

2) I've also gone with her to a few of her 12-step meetings, and many of her friends are from that program.  When I listened to the speakers in her meeting, and listen to her friends, I was shocked to learn there are many, many people just like her.  Really eye opening to learn what their true struggles are, with themselves, and others within their own program. 

3) My experience listening to speakers in her program, and other friends I have in that program with decades of sobriety - it seems like many go through a period of cockiness, where they are sober and think they are cured, yet don't realize they are still the same, just sober.  So it's like "look how much I have done for myself - see now you are the one who is screwed up!"  My fiance will go through those rants from time to time, where she will talk about how much work she has done on herself, how much she has accomplished since she came clean, how good of a person she now is compared to what she was, how we should all recognize her accomplishments, and how everyone else is a bunch of jerks for not going to therapy or not doing the 12 steps themselves. 

I guess the point of my comment here is that his behavior seems to be pretty typical for what I have observed.

[vortex of confusion]

From my perspective, enforcing boundaries is not the same as being controlling at all. I've sure heard the accusation (from the disordered target of the boundary enforcement) before, but that doesn't make it true.

From my experience with my husband, the only way to get him to respect my boundaries is to be a total b**ch. Maybe that is not what it is but that is how it feels. It feels horrible to have to be so direct and forceful to get somebody to NOT violate my space and my boundaries.

I am naturally a nice person. Even my kids make comments about how nice and polite I am when we are out and about. I tend to reserve certain things for certain situations. I can be very, very assertive when necessary. However, I do not think that I should have to be so assertive with the person that is supposedly my life partner. I know, I need to change my thinking on this and get to a point where I am okay with being assertive and detached. I need to be able to get to a point where I can accept that there is absolutely no hope unless I find more ways to change and more ways to be different. Being ME does not work in this relationship.

[vortex of confusion]

3) My experience listening to speakers in her program, and other friends I have in that program with decades of sobriety - it seems like many go through a period of cockiness, where they are sober and think they are cured, yet don't realize they are still the same, just sober.  So it's like "look how much I have done for myself - see now you are the one who is screwed up!"  My fiance will go through those rants from time to time, where she will talk about how much work she has done on herself, how much she has accomplished since she came clean, how good of a person she now is compared to what she was, how we should all recognize her accomplishments, and how everyone else is a bunch of jerks for not going to therapy or not doing the 12 steps themselves. 

I guess the point of my comment here is that his behavior seems to be pretty typical for what I have observed.

Thanks for the input Max! It does help to hear that this is relatively normal. I guess it is frustrating for me because I have gone to therapy in the past. I have done all kinds of reading and work on myself. I have steadily been working on self improvement for years and years and years. While he has been doing whatever it is he does, I have been reading and working on overcoming things from my childhood. I have been reading about ways to be a better wife and a better mother. I have written all kinds of stuff about parenting and family life. Every time he does a little bit of work on himself, I feel like he is beating me over the head with it. I feel like it completely invalidates everything that I have worked on for years. He has been going to meetings for about a year. In that year, he has only made it to step 4. He has attended 3 sessions with a therapist. Suddenly, I am supposed to worship him and be grateful and put my life on hold indefinitely until he figures out what he wants to do. I am not putting my life on hold but am doing a bunch of little things for myself behind the scenes that he knows nothing about. I got my job and am working on building myself back up professionally so that I will be able to get a full time job down the road so that I will be able to take care of the kids with or without his help.

I wanted to talk to him about the future. His response was, "I can't think about the future now. I can only live day to day. I can't make any kind of commitment about us." Okay, that is fine but I want to be able to make some plans for the future. I want something to look forward to even if it is something small like a family vacation. He can't think about those things. He doesn't want to think about whether or not we will be together in the future or not. That is too much for him to think about. All the while, our kids are getting older and are getting more and more frustrated with a dad that is so focused on himself and his games and his books and him, him, him. The kids have to go up to him and ask him about HIS games if they want to interact with him at all. He can't seem to make any kind of real attempt to connect with his own kids.

[Grey Kitty]

From my experience with my husband, the only way to get him to respect my boundaries is to be a total b**ch. Maybe that is not what it is but that is how it feels. It feels horrible to have to be so direct and forceful to get somebody to NOT violate my space and my boundaries. [... .] I do not think that I should have to be so assertive with the person that is supposedly my life partner. I know, I need to change my thinking on this and get to a point where I am okay with being assertive and detached. I need to be able to get to a point where I can accept that there is absolutely no hope unless I find more ways to change and more ways to be different. Being ME does not work in this relationship.

I never felt quite that way about it when I started enforcing boundaries. I do feel that boundaries are hard (soft or mushy boundaries don't work at all). Nothing about it is nice or friendly. Nothing about it is cruel or mean, either. It is purely protecting yourself.

If you aren't used to boundary enforcement, it will feel uncomfortable. It also may be that you could work out better ways to do it... .I wouldn't venture to guess without a specific example.

[vortex of confusion]

If you aren't used to boundary enforcement, it will feel uncomfortable. It also may be that you could work out better ways to do it... .I wouldn't venture to guess without a specific example.

I have no problems enforcing boundaries with people that can take NO for an answer. Heck, I have even managed to enforce boundaries with people that have tried to push me to places I didn't want to go. In school, I was odd man out because I didn't give in to peer pressure.

It isn't a matter of it being just a little bit uncomfortable. It is a matter of no matter how I say no or how I try to enforce boundaries, he tries to find ways around them. And it isn't always some kind of big forceful thing. It is a matter of him asking, pushing, badgering, buttering me up, and pretty much any and every tactic until he gets what he wants. In order for me to enforce a boundary, I feel like I have to be a b**ch. I don't feel like I am exaggerating. It is like being in one of those interrogation rooms where they will question you for hours on end and ask you the same things over and over and over again until they get you to confess. It feels like psychological torture at times.

[123Phoebe]

Is there something else going on your life that makes your H seem just impossible to deal with?  The reason I ask is that I'm picking up a lot of anger in your posts.  Not judging you at all, just an observation. 

I noticed that you posted over on the Leaving board and are getting validation for the way you're feeling over there. 

I wanted to talk to him about the future. His response was, "I can't think about the future now. I can only live day to day. I can't make any kind of commitment about us."

Can the same be said for you?  Staying -- Leaving... .  Until we commit one way or the other, things will stay just the way they are.  We can't blame them for our feelings, we can't blame them for making us do certain things.  We make choices every day of our lives; some of them work out for the better, others blow up in our face, while there are those that keep us stuck in our comfort zones, yet we keep on truckin'/trudging along as the days go by... .

What is it that you truly want?  If you could teleport yourself into the future, what would it look like?

[vortex of confusion]

Can the same be said for you?  Staying -- Leaving... . Until we commit one way or the other, things will stay just the way they are.  We can't blame them for our feelings, we can't blame them for making us do certain things.  We make choices every day of our lives; some of them work out for the better, others blow up in our face, while there are those that keep us stuck in our comfort zones, yet we keep on truckin'/trudging along as the days go by... .

What is it that you truly want?  If you could teleport yourself into the future, what would it look like?

If I am completely honest with myself, I cannot imagine a future with him in it. I was hoping that I could read the lessons and do things differently and somehow have a change of heart. The more I read and do, the less I can imagine a future with him in it. I was committed to staying there for a while but his last little bout of trying to find other girls and telling people excitedly, "Looks like we are heading for divorce." And he kept changing his story as to who he told. One minute he tells me, "I told my mom not to be surprised if we end up divorced." And the next, he denies saying it.

Frankly, I refuse to commit to somebody that seems to not care about me at all. Whenever I start to have loving feelings towards him, it seems that he will do something and it makes me angry. For example, last night, he went to the store and bought a bunch of candy even though he is diabetic and the girls and I have been talking about trying to eat healthier. I am close to 300 pounds. I do not need candy and neither do the kids yet he buys it and then act like HE is the victim when we get upset with him about it. He says he didn't hear us talking about that stuff and that he was just trying to be nice. I gave him a friggin' list!

If I could teleport into the future, I would be healthier and would be a much healthier weight. The kids and I would be doing fun stuff on a regular basis. I would find a way to make enough money to continue staying home with the kids. When I think about the future, I don't see how I can do these things with him in it. There are a lot of years of history of him being a particular way. The way he is makes it almost impossible for the kids and I to go out and have fun.

[MissyM]

If I could teleport into the future, I would be healthier and would be a much healthier weight. The kids and I would be doing fun stuff on a regular basis.

This is something you can do and start living towards, now!  That is kind of what I am talking about, waiting around for him to be healthier just doesn't work.  We have to get healthier ourselves and live our lives in a way that makes us feel good about ourselves.  Our BPDs are not responsible for that.  Once I was able to detach my well being from my dBPDh's, that is when I was able to truly heal and move forward.  If he decides to join you and be healthy, then maybe there can be a future.  If he doesn't decide to join you, then you will be healthier and ready for your life on your own.  Either way, it is a win for you!

[vortex of confusion]

This is something you can do and start living towards, now!  That is kind of what I am talking about, waiting around for him to be healthier just doesn't work.  We have to get healthier ourselves and live our lives in a way that makes us feel good about ourselves.  Our BPDs are not responsible for that.  Once I was able to detach my well being from my dBPDh's, that is when I was able to truly heal and move forward.  If he decides to join you and be healthy, then maybe there can be a future.  If he doesn't decide to join you, then you will be healthier and ready for your life on your own.  Either way, it is a win for you!

I don't need him to join me. I need him to not sabatoge my attempts to be healthier. Going to the store and buying candy that I can't resist eating is not helping me. Yeah, I know, I should have enough will power to NOT eat the candy. I need to be super woman so that I can manage all of this stuff on my own while he sits around doing his thing and sabatoging the things that I am trying to do.

I need him to not throw fits and get upset when we try to do things without him. I need him to STOP needling the kids so that when we are out and about things go smoother. We went out for a bit over the weekend. I am not even sure what transpired. I think one of the kids said something about her feet hurting because we had been walking around a bunch. Instead of saying, "Yeah, my feet hurt too." He said, "Well, you don't have to go in this store. I'm going in by myself." He was very snotty and mean about it. I said something about him being so rude and mean. He changed his tune a little but then when he went into the store, he got out of the car rambling and ranting and raving. He said, "I'll meet you at home" and slammed the car door as hard as he could. It really upsets the kids when he does stuff like that. If we leave him at home, he feels rejected and gets upset and makes our life difficult. It feels like a no win situation. I can go on about my life but that does not change the fact that his cluelessness sets off the kids and then I have to work on calming them down and play referee. When he isn't around, those things don't happen.