How to respond to this

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Okay...

So I had been managing to juke and dodge some landmines past few days that I saw were triggers with my wife.  Did have to sleep on couch, but avoided an argument in doing so.

Yesterday, though, wife went total depressed as she usually does on Sunday and basically refused to get out of bed.  She would not do anything when I offered to do anything she wanted so after I cleaned up the house, trash, laundry, etc... I did what I wanted.  In past would just lay there with her and ruin my only day off too.  After she came through house giving me evil angry looks as I tried to enjoy myself, it had been about 4 hours.  It was getting near dinner, so I went in and asked if she was hunger or wanted me to go to grocery store.  She then got mean and nasty and said how therapy is helping her but she is still horribly unhappy with our relationship and thus it must be my fault.  She says I need to change too.  I have no doubt I need to change... I am co-dependent and I have been a sucker for her ploys and rescuer for too long, but I also know she did not mean I needed to change in those ways.  She means I had to change in a way that made her feel good and brought her happiness.  I know I cannot do that any more though.  I have beaten myself up for years and thinking I was inadequate blaming myself for all of this, but since doing what "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and help on this board in addition to what my family, friends, and therapist have been saying for years... I am just going to force myself to accept I am doing all I can... .  I still doubt it even though I really do devote everything to this relationship and at the expense of myself

Anyways, she is sitting there telling me these things, then starts with the low blows.  I sit there trying to use SET and validate that she must feel horrible and agree I cannot fully understand it and its not fair.  Asking what she thinks could be done.  She talks about therapy and I say its her choice if she wants to go and I do not want her to feel forced.  I want her to do it for herself to be happy not to please me.  I am keeping even tone and trying not to show emotion.  After about an hour of all of this, and her pointing out little mess ups I have done and I own those messups... I do not give excuses even though there are some or point the finger at her for anything.  I did say if she feels the relationship is not meeting her needs that I want to meet those, but if I am not, I understand if she needs to move on.  Eventually she hits me on a comment that I am only nice when I want to have sex.  That was a straw that broke the camels back.  Not that I tell her this, but I am to a point that sex and us is VERY low on the priority scale right now.  I have made a couple of passes at her in past week because she says I never make any, anymore.  Both were rejected.  Honestly, I do not like even attempting anymore because I am worried it might trigger a fight and most likely rejected which feels crappy.  Twice a month is pretty much currently how it goes and thats fine by me.  What I want is just us getting along.  I am not really worried about debt, or sex, or home repairs, or new home, or anything else as much as wanting to be able to come home and not be terrified. 

Result being is that I did raise my voice a little when she made that comment and said I needed to leave, and that I had sat there and tried to be civil, but I do not have to be talked to like that anymore.  Was that a good reaction?

What could I have done better?

I mean she is still furious this morning.  Asking me why I bought rye bread, when I said because I wanted it, and asking why the water I bought for her co-workers was not put in her car and just by the door for her to take. 

All of this has me on edge because

a. next week is her bday

b. I have a colonscopy scheduled tommorow cause of some GI issues, and she is supposedly my ride.  Not to mention what its going to be like tonight with the prep-fluids and to possibly have to handle an assault from her.

It really is hard to de-sensitize to her rants and worry that there might be kernels of truth, but is how far she exploded warranted?

[hurthusband]

Okay...

So I had been managing to juke and dodge some landmines past few days that I saw were triggers with my wife.  Did have to sleep on couch, but avoided an argument in doing so.

Yesterday, though, wife went total depressed as she usually does on Sunday and basically refused to get out of bed.  She would not do anything when I offered to do anything she wanted so after I cleaned up the house, trash, laundry, etc... I did what I wanted.  In past would just lay there with her and ruin my only day off too.  After she came through house giving me evil angry looks as I tried to enjoy myself, it had been about 4 hours.  It was getting near dinner, so I went in and asked if she was hunger or wanted me to go to grocery store.  She then got mean and nasty and said how therapy is helping her but she is still horribly unhappy with our relationship and thus it must be my fault.  She says I need to change too.  I have no doubt I need to change... I am co-dependent and I have been a sucker for her ploys and rescuer for too long, but I also know she did not mean I needed to change in those ways.  She means I had to change in a way that made her feel good and brought her happiness.  I know I cannot do that any more though.  I have beaten myself up for years and thinking I was inadequate blaming myself for all of this, but since doing what "Stop Walking On Eggshells" and help on this board in addition to what my family, friends, and therapist have been saying for years... I am just going to force myself to accept I am doing all I can... .  I still doubt it even though I really do devote everything to this relationship and at the expense of myself

Anyways, she is sitting there telling me these things, then starts with the low blows.  I sit there trying to use SET and validate that she must feel horrible and agree I cannot fully understand it and its not fair.  Asking what she thinks could be done.  She talks about therapy and I say its her choice if she wants to go and I do not want her to feel forced.  I want her to do it for herself to be happy not to please me.  I am keeping even tone and trying not to show emotion.  After about an hour of all of this, and her pointing out little mess ups I have done and I own those messups... I do not give excuses even though there are some or point the finger at her for anything.  I did say if she feels the relationship is not meeting her needs that I want to meet those, but if I am not, I understand if she needs to move on.  Eventually she hits me on a comment that I am only nice when I want to have sex.  That was a straw that broke the camels back.  Not that I tell her this, but I am to a point that sex and us is VERY low on the priority scale right now.  I have made a couple of passes at her in past week because she says I never make any, anymore.  Both were rejected.  Honestly, I do not like even attempting anymore because I am worried it might trigger a fight and most likely rejected which feels crappy.  Twice a month is pretty much currently how it goes and thats fine by me.  What I want is just us getting along.  I am not really worried about debt, or sex, or home repairs, or new home, or anything else as much as wanting to be able to come home and not be terrified. 

Result being is that I did raise my voice a little when she made that comment and said I needed to leave, and that I had sat there and tried to be civil, but I do not have to be talked to like that anymore.  Was that a good reaction?

What could I have done better?

I mean she is still furious this morning.  Asking me why I bought rye bread, when I said because I wanted it, and asking why the water I bought for her co-workers was not put in her car and just by the door for her to take. 

All of this has me on edge because

a. next week is her bday

b. I have a colonscopy scheduled tommorow cause of some GI issues, and she is supposedly my ride.  Not to mention what its going to be like tonight with the prep-fluids and to possibly have to handle an assault from her.

It really is hard to de-sensitize to her rants and worry that there might be kernels of truth, but is how far she exploded warranted?

[MissyM]

The sex thing can be a touchy subject.  When my dBPDh has gotten annoyed about lack of sex, I have validated that we haven't had much sex lately and added the truth that I would like to have sex and miss having that time together.  Then I ask to set a time for a date and sex.  That pretty much shuts down the victim talk.  It is annoying because he also plays that same game of rejecting me and then pretending that he is the one that has been rejected.

As for the rest, sounds like you handled it well until that remark.  Why does the sex remark sting more than the others?

[Grey Kitty]

Oof. Sounds tough. Sex is so often a more difficult topic than most. Sigh.

Anyways, she is sitting there telling me these things, then starts with the low blows.  I sit there trying to use SET and validate that she must feel horrible and agree I cannot fully understand it and its not fair. 

What could I have done better?

This sounds like a hour-long pile-everything-on-hurthusband rant. (You aren't clear about quite how long this went on!)

If she has one concern with you, wants to ask you to do something specific, you could discuss that and possibly change, or at least work on it.

I'd suggest that you excuse yourself and leave the house after a few minutes. Or as soon as it becomes clear that if one thing is deflected, she's going to throw something else at you. Just let me ask you ONE question:

Has a conversation like this EVER been good, productive, helpful, or anything but tearing you down?

SET and/or validation won't usually stop a tirade like this, or even slow it down, once it gets going.

Enforcing the boundary of not being an emotional punching bag, and leaving works.

a. next week is her bday

Suggestion #1: Give her something that you feel good about giving her, and hope she may like, and/or do something special for her.

Suggestion #2: Expect her to blow up and make it all your fault. Make plans so you can escape if she dysregulates.

b. I have a colonscopy scheduled tommorow cause of some GI issues, and she is supposedly my ride. 

Is it too late to arrange somebody else to do it for you?

[Determined1]

Yes the sex topic can be very difficult to discuss especially if she is already convinced that you have an ulterior motive (I.e. being nice). I understand the frustration. When I try to cuddle or hug my wife from behind (like when she is cooking dinner), I sometimes get hit with only doing that for sex or she mentions that it is the monthly cycle week. Honestly, those are rarely my intentions. Guys like to snuggle up and just hold their women too. Then after a week or two, I get accused of not showing affection/love and not making any moves on her. Sometimes only time can heal the situation. Take this time out to recover, focus on mental rehearsal of future interactions and try again.

[Ceruleanblue]

I agree with Grey Kitty. Probably when she gets on a tangent like that, if it's too hurtful for you to listen, set a boundary, and leave the room. Leave the house if you have to. I think being able to talk things out is great, heck, I wish my uBPDh could talk things out. If it is just a bash fest though, that isn't a productive "talk".

I'm not sure what you could have done differently. It seems you handled it well, and she was just going to me upset, no matter what you did, or did not do. That is what is so awful about BPD, is that it isn't logical, and their reactions are over the top, and it's all based on skewed perceptions. How do you combat that?

If you are like me, you spend entirely too much time trying to figure out how to not set her off, or how to anticipate how to make things better. It's a waste of time, because WE can't make them happy. It's a lost cause. We can sometimes validate, use SET, and try not to JADE, but sometimes chaos is still going to happen.

I'm like you, I want to stay, but I think my uBPDh might be about done. It's ironic that I've stayed through all the abuse, some of it physical, but he wants to leave. He finally gets a diagnosis, and is one meds, but he's fed up. What does he think I am, does he think this has been fun for me? He treats me like I'm disposable. I'm willing to stick by him, even though he has huge issues, but he just wants the easy way out.

[MaroonLiquid]

... .but he just wants the easy way out.

Of course he does, it keeps him from actually having to be responsible.  Then he gets a free pass to go on and continue to be that way, not have to change, blame you, and continue to be the victim.  He can then say, you didn't understand him, and you weren't "the one" after all.  Changing for them means actually dealing with their issues.  

    I realize with my wife that there was no amount of change I could do that would be enough because she wouldn't change.  It got to be where I was working all day (she has a job also but works remotely from home), making 4 or 5 dinners a week, picking up and dropping kids off at functions, and doing more chores around the house (while her kids did nothing and complained if they were "asked" to do dishes).  She was always trying to get me to conform to what she couldn't do to make up for her lack.  We would always try to plan for a weekend alone/trip and she could never "make it work" as her and the kids had "things going on".  Then I would get blamed for not putting more effort into making sure those weekends happen.  Never understood a lot of these "nuances" to our relationship, but I realize now why... .

[hurthusband]

Yea... it certainly felt like just piling on over and over.  I am really trying to use the Eggshells and things from this board.  It was just getting too much.  So after an hour, I said I had to go.

Sex comment got to me because for several reasons.

a. I honestly did not want sex at that moment when I tried to make a move.  I wanted her to know I love her and appreciate her and she has made many comments who we do not have much sex anymore.  Now I do not say this but alot of it is cause she is a complete bear lately and I am so nervous round her that when adrenaline is pumping in fear... sex isnt on your mind.  So making that comment irked me

b. She knows one thing I never liked about my father (who I still love and was a great father) was the fact that he was/is a womanizer and which I do not like because others have feelings.  She was saying the only reason I was being nice was to manipulate her into getting what I wanted which very well may have been her projecting, but after an hour of her hammering on me and me validating and saying I "that would not feel good if I was you neither" "I am sorry you disagree, and how do you feel we should pursue" and everything in between it was just a straw that broke camels back.  Honestly, it was like several body blows and Im feeling weak and expecting more and then she comes with a left hook to the head that just caught me off guard

Yesterday went same sort of way.  She was great in the morning... everything was fine... of course then when she comes home to take me to hospital... the roof in kitchen caves in from some leak... .this goes well with the same sort of thing happening in bathroom few days earlier from a different leak which is on top of fact that the fence is falling.  (we bought a newly rennovated house, but in 5 years there we have learned that it was rennovated by a guy in law school who basically did all the electrical/plumbing and everything himself... and had no clue what he was doing from using untreated wood fence posts to putting tiles on uneven floors to shody electrical work that nearly burned the house down but that is another story)

That was building on her... then she started a new job that pays crap... she has 2 coworkers on her team... one got fired yesterday and the other goes on maternity leave in a month so she has no clue what she is going to do with all the work.

Kid comes home acting normal for us to find out he is completely failing in school.  She snaps.  She wants me to come up with a long term plan/budget and how we can get all of this handled and fixed... I am drugged still and honestly I do not have a plan and cannot come up with one.  We are talking $2500 in medical bills every month alone... never mind the interest on credit cards and living expenses, and everything else.  I have no clue how to fix all of this.  I tell her I know its very daunting and frustrating.  I know I love her and I want to work with her, but I just cannot think clearly right now and I have to go lay down. 

I am not sure if that is a boundary I am setting or if that is me disengaging which I read you do not want to do... I do not know how to communicate with the kids and what to tell them about all of this because the fact that they are complete teenage slobs who are mouthy and appear not to care about school and anything else is just really pushing her over the edge and I am getting blasted for it.  They do not seem to care if she is upset at them at all.  I do not want them to feel they have to be adults and caretakers, but at same time... they have to at least not leave dog ___ in their room for 7 days or have a bowl of cereal milk sitting in their room for 5 days... or take their mothers crap without asking...

[ColdEthyl]

Oh sir, I sure do feel for you.

Sometimes the things they say is them just wanting to vent. My dBPDh recently got upset at me because I spoke to my 14D about something he told me. He was picking her up from school one day and her friend was dressed inappropriately. Logically, I cannot do a thing about what other children do. However, after he brought it up repeatedly (that hamster wheel thinking) I told him I would mention it to her. And I did. I didn't make it a big deal, just pointed out to her that her friend's skirt was way shorter and should have been sent home and my 14D agreed.

When he brought it up once again, I told him hey dude... .already discussed it. BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG mistake. He freaked out about it, saying I never told him I would mention it (I did multiple times) and she's going to hate him now because he's complaining about her friends and I'm making him out to be the bad guy.

I calmly explained this issue was brought up several times, and I thought since it was important enough to keep discussing, I would bring it up. And, whenever he swears I didn't say something when I have... .I always just say "Hmmm... .must not have heard me sorry if I assumed"

He explained to me when he talks about things over and over, he doesn't always want me to do anything or say anything about it, but he's just venting. He knows he says it a lot, he knows he repeats himself but it's like a bug in his brain... .these thoughts.

Ok, fair enough. Anything like that happens again, I will discuss it in full detail before I utter a word. He calmed down.

I'm thinking some of your wife's issues are just her needing to vent. If she's in a depression swing, she's dysregulating. That's going to be the time they go on and on and on, and they feel like everyone hates them and the world is mean.

As far as the kids go, I have talked to mine about my husband's issues. I think it's better to be honest with them. hey might act like they don't care because they feel like she doesn't, which is inaccurate.

[Grey Kitty]

Yea... it certainly felt like just piling on over and over.  I am really trying to use the Eggshells and things from this board.  It was just getting too much.  So after an hour, I said I had to go.

Glad you ended it. Looking back, how much of that hour feels like it was well spent? Next time would you decide you have to go earlier?

Sex comment got to me because for several reasons.

All I can say here is that you don't have to believe her when she says crap like that to you. She speaks because her feelings become her facts. They aren't your feelings, and they aren't your facts.

It is a little easier to bear things like that when you really understand that you don't have to believe what she says. (In fact, you can even validate it without believing it or saying you believe it!)

I tell her I know its very daunting and frustrating.  I know I love her and I want to work with her, but I just cannot think clearly right now and I have to go lay down. 

I am not sure if that is a boundary I am setting or if that is me disengaging which I read you do not want to do...

It is a good job of enforcing a boundary.

I think disengaging from a situation that is no-win is a good thing.

The "disengaging" I'd recommend against is completely disengaging from her... .more like giving her the silent treatment, or just saying "Yes, dear" whatever she does or says. You seem to have more risk of being too enmeshed with her than being too disengaged.

[MissyM]

I am not sure if that is a boundary I am setting or if that is me disengaging which I read you do not want to do...

Sounds more like detachment, which is supposed to be healthy.  It helps me realize that my dBPDh's moods and reality aren't about me but all about him.

[waverider]

This is the problem with endless validating often you are only putting off the inevitable. She is probing you to get a reaction and will keep going until she gets one. Sex was your trigger, but she would have kept digging until she found one.

The way around this is not just to keep validating in an attempt to not getting angry or triggered. Rather to accept that you will get angry and be triggered at some stage, and learn ways to preempt this and manage it better. eg State that this line of conversation is making you angry and that you are not willing to continue with it. That way your anger does not come out in a reactionary way and you will stay more in control of it.

She now knows comments about sex are your trigger and will register it away as a "use again" when she wants to get at you.

[hurthusband]

Yea... last night build up was happening... she was being nice.  I left work early to meet her at my sons football game.  After the game we went home.  She was refusing to eat again... and opened a bottle of wine.  As she drank the wine she disengaged from the familiy and went outside to listen to music, read, and drink.

After sending kid to bed, I went and was talking.  She slowly started to talk about how the house is falling apart due to shoddy building which is completely true.  How we do not have the money to keep paying for all these repairs which is completely true.  Then she talked about how she was about to get a raise going from $11 an hour to $16 an hour and how in 6 months times she had gone up 50% and that I needed to start making more money in both my jobs... .  Well, one of my jobs I have seen roughly a 20% raise, and the other nothing in past 3 years, but they let me work my other job at their place while doing their work which combines to be about $50 an hour.  Also, the job with no raise is steady income and 2 years ago was about 60% of my income while now its about 45%.  Yes its going down, but I took it cause my other job is more susceptible to economic changes which is when it dropped 50% when market crashed.  Wife though is getting mad saying I need to get paid more from the steady job...   or quit.  O btw, the steady job will one day be inherited by me as a whole which would basically mean income would jump 1000%. 

She starts to get nasty and just tells me to go inside.  I should have said "i know its scary not having the money to handle all of these problems" which was the real source rather than dwell on her attacking me on the pay of my job, but it just didnt hit me until writing it right now.  I just went inside and avoided her rest of evening with evening ruined.

Honestly, you all are kind of my voice of reason.  Helping me decide if my decision making is sound or if I am being inflexible and how to handle things better.  Probably need to know that for myself, but I am so messed up I cannot right now.  So thanks for the help

[Grey Kitty]

Wife though is getting mad saying I need to get paid more from the steady job...   or quit.

I'm not going to say whether you are working the right jobs, whether you are being paid enough, or whether you should quit. I personally don't know enough to say one way or another, but even if I did, it isn't my place to make that decision for you.

It is your career, and your decision to make, for your own reasons.

If you try to tell your wife why you are making a good decision when she gets mad like this, it is just JADEing at her. Nothing good will come of that.

You shouldn't tell her what job she should have, how much she should be paid, what sort of raise she should demand, or when she should quit. (And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either!)

Stop letting her run your career. Stop letting her try to run your career. Instead of telling her why she's drawing the wrong conclusion, tell her that it is your choice to make, and you will make it on your own, and are done discussing it with her.

I think ending the conversation was the right thing to do.

Enforcing a boundary that your career is up to you, and you won't let her second guess your choices will do wonders.

I should have said "i know its scary not having the money to handle all of these problems" which was the real source rather than dwell on her attacking me on the pay of my job, but it just didnt hit me until writing it right now.

Yes, this sort of validation would be helpful too. You could combine this with a statement of the boundary, in a form more like S.E.T.

[waverider]

Stop letting her run your career. Stop letting her try to run your career. Instead of telling her why she's drawing the wrong conclusion, tell her that it is your choice to make, and you will make it on your own, and are done discussing it with her.

I think ending the conversation was the right thing to do.

Enforcing a boundary that your career is up to you, and you won't let her second guess your choices will do wonders.

This^^

Going there will make you doubt your self worth. You are doing your best and what you think is right. Sure she's frustrated about not having more $$. Who doesn't get like that at times. She is just projecting it onto you and needs to blame someone. Truth is if you earned twice as much you would have twice the overheads and eventually find yourself having the same discussion.

Its not the money thats the issue it is the attitude towards money and expectations.

[hurthusband]

Excellent

Thanks.  really helps me stay clear and more focused on myself rather than her which appears what I need to do