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Author Topic: She's threatening suicide  (Read 664 times)
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« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2014, 09:46:12 AM »

 

This is good... that she is interacting with the professionals and making decisions about her care.

Do you see your involvement (role) with her IC or MC changing... .as in more phone calls or updates?
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« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2014, 11:42:01 AM »

Do you see your involvement (role) with her IC or MC changing... .as in more phone calls or updates?

Yes.  A big yes.  Before I was okay with letting her find her own path.  Not anymore.  After the other night, it's clear that I need to do what I can to motivate her towards therapies and 12-step meetings.   She needs the honest truth here - that while I can understand and forgive her for the kinds of events that happened the other day - I still feel hurt by them, I still need her to handle her own emotions and develop strategies of managing stress before things get to that point.  And once things return to relative safety with her emotions, I need to stress to her what would have happened had we had a child in the house the other day.  I'd be telling her something that deep down she already knows, but she needs to know that I consider this a big deal, a VERY big deal.  She needs to know that the survival of this relationship and us having children is entirely dependent on her learning strategies to handle stress and emotions, and that I can't do that for her.

Interesting here - she hugged me last night, and apologized, explained what happened that she boiled over with stress and went out of control, that she said hurtful things, and she didn't mean it.  And you know what?  I feel fine.  Yeah, those were mean and hurtful words, but having spent time on this message board and reading books on BPD and going to 12-step meetings, I don't take much of this personally anymore.  I return to baseline much quicker, and get on with my life.  When this happened last year, I felt crappy for a month or two afterwards.  Yet today, I'm looking forward to going home, having a nice dinner, and doing what I need to do to take care of me.

It sounds like her father took the brunt of the wrath the other day.  He is very hurt, and he doesn't know how to "stop the bleeding" and instead wants to lash out and blame in anger in return.  I don't blame him.  She said some very hurtful and accusatory things to him.  I'm sure it is much more difficult to let go when the pwBPD is your child.  He sent me a few messages this morning that he thought he was sending to her.  I'm glad for that mistake, because they were very hurtful and would have been destructive considering how remorseful and scared she feels this morning.  I chatted with him a bit, told him that her anger has nothing to do with him, that this is her own internal struggle and he would be better off just letting her deal with her own problems through professionals and he just go about his day.  I know where he is coming from.  During her anger the other day, she blamed him and his parenting for all of her trauma and struggles, and she used that moment to tell him that she had been raped as a teenager (I guess he previously didn't know) and blamed it on his poor parenting.  (By the way, at one point last year during a rage, she tried so shift some of the blame for that rape onto me - that was one of those moments that helped me realize that her rages had absolutely nothing to do with anything I did or didn't do - how could I possibly be responsible for something that happened to her 20 years before we even met!).

Anyway, I hope her dad can calm down and keep his distance and heal.  I told her to disengage from him for a few days - she doesn't need to read or deal with his crap.
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« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2014, 02:59:08 PM »

She needs to know that the survival of this relationship and us having children is entirely dependent on her learning strategies to handle stress and emotions, and that I can't do that for her.

Solid work Max.  Have you said this to her directly yet?  I'm wondering if some rephrasing could help.  That phrase is fine for normal times... .but instead of saying something that you "can't" do... I'm wondering if staying positive is better and saying it is something for her to do... .  (this may be a bit of a fine point... .or I may be off the mark... .)

Basically how do you say that positively... . 

A counterargument to what I'm saying... .is that she clearly needs to know, understand, live, believe... .in every nook and cranny of her life that her emotions are hers... .and you didn't "cause" them.  If it takes negative talk to make that point... .so be it.



  doing what I need to do to take care of me.

Max,

I appreciate you describing how you used to think... .how long it used to take you to get over things... .and how that is now.  Can you spend some time describing how your self care has evolved.  Note:  This thread is getting long... .so might be good to start a new thread on that... .but I think that would be good for lots of people to be able to follow how your thinking evolved on that.

  I told her to disengage from him for a few days - she doesn't need to read or deal with his crap.

This might be another thread as well... .but I'm not sure I remember much of what she has dealt with from her family.  Does she feel the need to stay connected?  How much drama do they keep adding to her life? 
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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2014, 03:53:40 PM »

This might be another thread as well... .but I'm not sure I remember much of what she has dealt with from her family.  Does she feel the need to stay connected?  How much drama do they keep adding to her life? 

I'll respond to this here, because it is relevant to this thread, but start a new threat with the other topic you mentioned.

I met her because she was in my city taking care of her dad after a major operation.  And while she spends most of her time badmouthing him, I know deep down she truly loves him and wants him in her life.  She just doesn't know how.  And with talk of marriage and a potential family, I think she feels a stronger desire to be close, yet she doesn't know how.  The BPD gets in the way, as does his extreme JADE behavior.  If he could learn to focus on himself and not expect her to behave in any particular way, their relationship would be much better.  And I know he desperately wants to have a good relationship with her, but I think he has misguided intentions.  I think a lot of men have a biological "protective" mechanism in place towards their children and families, and many men tend to express that in destructive ways, especially towards daughters.  I think that is at play here, where he feels some shame about the person she became, and still tries to "parent" by trying to get her to conform to his ideal of a good person (which she is incapable of) rather than accept things for what they are.  I think it is his way of trying to protect her from bad things by trying to get her to conform to a certain behavior. 

Her mother is deceased.  Her mother was also diagnosed BPD, and basically died from smoking.  Her mother was homeless at the time she died, and was both and abuse victim from her FOO, and very abusive towards her children.  And while she has been deceased for 5 years, she still comes in to play in two areas - her father and stepmother blame her mom for all kinds of things.  My fiancé gets very upset by this.   While she knows her mom was abusive, she also still sees her as a mom who struggled with her own mental health, and not deserving of blame after death.  The second area where her mom comes into play is that she sees how her mom wound up, and sees her own struggles as similar as if her mom's fate is foretelling her future.  So, if she loses her job, it's just like her mom not being able to keep a job and winding up homeless.

Her stepmom is another issue.  She resents her stepmom because she blames her stepmom as the reason she was not close to her father as a child.  It's the old "dad was too busy pursuing her to pay attention to me."  I know her stepmom cares about her, but can be controlling and neurotic.

Extended family - she seems closest to her aunt.  I have never met this aunt, but from what I hear this aunt is likely PD herself.  I don't want to say bad things, but I kinda resent this woman because she seems to want to meddle in my affairs by telling my fiancé what to do regarding this r/s, without having met me.  She has two step brothers. One she does not want to speak to, the other she has gotten closer to in later years.   But I think the reason she is not close is because they represent part of her drug use past (both are frequent pot smokers), and I think there were also inappropriate relationships with her step brothers.  She has one sister that seems to put up a good boundary wall.  I get it, but my fiancé feels hurt by it.  I don't blame her sister.  She's doing what she has to do to be happy and avoid the chaos of her family.  And in the past year, she has become closer to her other aunt and uncle, partly because of me.  I think this is a healthy relationship.
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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2014, 08:44:40 PM »

Excerpt
And you know what?  I feel fine.  Yeah, those were mean and hurtful words, but having spent time on this message board and reading books on BPD and going to 12-step meetings, I don't take much of this personally anymore.  I return to baseline much quicker, and get on with my life.

Just wanted to say, that is fantastic!  I find the message of depersonalizing other's behavior in Alanon is helpful for me.  It is amazing how many things in dealing with addiction are helpful for BPD.
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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2014, 09:46:10 PM »

Whew. That's some relief for you, and I'm glad you aren't taking it personally.

I'd be telling her something that deep down she already knows, but she needs to know that I consider this a big deal, a VERY big deal.  She needs to know that the survival of this relationship and us having children is entirely dependent on her learning strategies to handle stress and emotions, and that I can't do that for her.

I get that she needs to understand this.

I think you are hitting on the crux of it when you say that deep down she already knows. I'd add that in addition to already knowing, I'd bet that she is absolutely unspeakably terrified of this, and completely unable to face it.

I'm afraid that any way you tell her this, it will make things worse rather than better. It is invalidating, and will probably be heard as a threat rather than encouragement.

... .I'm wondering if speaking this out loud should wait until you are ready to end it?

This current episode has to be sufficient motivation to "get better" without any comments like this.

You may be better off just continuing the "normal" program as a non, using good boundary enforcement, avoiding unnecessary invalidation, being validating, and using good communication tools.

You can support her, but remember that only she can do the real work.
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« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2014, 12:33:17 PM »

 

One thought is that since she "upped the game"... .by her behavior... .you know have proof that most everyone will agree the past strategy wasn't working.

So... .what next... .how do we up the treatment game?

I see what grey kitty means... .about invalidating and scaring her more.

How do we get her to "peek" at her worst fears... .in a positive light... .rather than face them head on.

Tiny Little Changes... .  how does that apply to facing your worst fear?

There should be some balance here...

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« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2014, 10:55:55 AM »

Grey-Form - those are excellent thoughts, thank you.  One thing I try to avoid is telling her things she already knows.  And she already knows that if her behavior doesn't change it will bring about the end to this r/s.  And you are right, if I say or do anything to confirm what she already knows, bad things will happen.  And despite the other night, I still see big changes in her over the past year.  I still think she can do this (become stable), but it will take motivation and support from me.

I think a better approach would be to try and steer the subject when she gets on the subject of working or having a family.

"I think it is wonderful to have those goals. I want nothing more than to see you happy and enjoying life.  But last Monday was very serious and very scary for both of us, and I think the best way to reach those goals would be to take time now to work though the issues with stress and emotional management.  I've seen the efforts you have made over the past year and a half and the changes that have occurred within you, and I think for our long term goals it would be better if you focused on that right now instead of career training."
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« Reply #38 on: October 24, 2014, 11:14:36 AM »

And regarding her dad -

She's still at odds with him.  I'm sure many of you have dealt with the same.  I don't see where he is being particularly cruel or mean or a jerk, but then again I don't know their whole history.  She claims he is manipulating her, using money to control her, and triggering her.  She's blaming him.  What I see is him wanting to protect her, wanting her to have a happy life, wanting to see her get married, and wanting to have boundaries to protect himself.  He emailed yesterday saying that all he wants is for her to be happy, and still wants to participate in her wedding, but any more of her accusing him and blaming him, and he will quietly leave.  Sounds reasonable.  And he said that if she can't do that to tell him now (he used the word "uninvite" him).

And of course she immediately got defensive and fired back, accused him of trying to control her with money (because they are giving us money for the wedding), accused him of not letting her have boundaries, and blamed him some more.  Uggh.  And of course he got defensive and told her that they are giving us money regardless of whether we have a wedding or not, that it's completely unconditional, that all he wants is for her and I to be happy, and all he wants is a relationship with her that doesn't include blame and accusations.

I'm doing my very best to stay completely out of it - but somehow they both feel I should be involved.
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« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2014, 11:27:56 AM »

One thing I try to avoid is telling her things she already knows.

Excerpt
I think a better approach would be to try and steer the subject when she gets on the subject of working or having a family.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good idea there!

Excerpt
"I think it is wonderful to have those goals. I want nothing more than to see you happy and enjoying life.  But last Monday was very serious and very scary for both of us, and I think the best way to reach those goals would be to take time now to work though the issues with stress and emotional management.  I've seen the efforts you have made over the past year and a half and the changes that have occurred within you, and I think for our long term goals it would be better if you focused on that right now instead of career training."

I think you missed your goal here.

1. Don't use "but" "I think it is wonderful to have goals... .but last Monday was scary... ." Using but takes a good, friendly validating statement, and completely sucks all the good it did away with the invalidating part after it. There is a reason the SET format doesn't have the word "but" in it!

2. She already knows just about all of this--she knows how crazy Monday was. She knows that she has stuff to work on. She probably knows that you want her to work on it too!

Given how important all this is to her... .you aren't going to "gently" steer the conversation. I'm not sure you can be more gentle than "I can't talk about a having a family today." MAYBE you can change the subject... .but if you try, pick something safe like weather, sports, cat videos on the internet... .not her need for tough emotional work or therapy!
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« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2014, 12:01:06 PM »

 

Maybe a "what do the professionals say is the best way to properly work on stress and emotional management"

This is a tricky tightrope... .
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2014, 06:44:23 PM »

Wednesday, I managed a happy day.  But as yesterday and this afternoon wears on, I just feel down.  Part of it may be illness with a cold, but I think most of it is emotional.  Like the trauma from Monday starting to sink in. 

It doesn't help that I see her going on like Monday was no big deal.  "One of her episodes" she says.  And she is back to talking about marriage and having a child, and looking for a job again... .  All the same topics that led up to me calling the police Monday night.  Some how, I need to bring it up to her in a-non invalidating way that I think it would be best if she just took time now and not worked, and instead focused on herself so that she can handle the stress of having a job and having a child (I don't want to tell her yet that after Monday, I have SERIOUS reservations about having a child with her - she's still way too unstable, and I really need time to think).  We have a T appointment Monday, so maybe that will help.  And we also have one of her friends staying with us for awhile, so at least she won't be home alone during the day.

I really think what I need is some alone time or time with my friends this weekend.  Does anyone else experience this?  The horror and adrenaline of dealing with a rage, the calming down, the acceptance and detachment, and then some kind of depression?  Even though Monday she said the most horrible things anyone has ever said to me, I don't really feel hurt by it because it was all pure nonsense.  That kinda scares me.  Am I numb?  Am I some how blocking this out because it was a traumatic experience, and it will come back to haunt me later?  I guess I feel more just disappointed and sad that she would talk to me like that than I am hurt by the actual words. 

This truly is a horrible disorder.  I'm looking over the DSM criteria and the word "pervasive" caught my eye.  And looking over the 9 items once again, she clearly and strongly meets all 9.  I realize that some amount of understanding and acceptance will always be required on our end - and that is truly sad that the pwBPD will never know a truly balanced relationship.

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« Reply #42 on: October 24, 2014, 07:02:04 PM »



Max,

This is normal for it to "hit you" later... once your mind and body know you have survived.

Most of the time after serious aircraft emergency you would get out of plan feeling confident... .looking like a hero.  Maybe later that night... .when alone and trying to go to sleep the impact of it would hit you.

Focus on the facts... .you survived... .she is in a better place... .you are more determined.

My advice:  Skip talking about a kid... .but don't be shy about pushing for her to step up treatment... majorly.

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« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2014, 03:40:33 AM »

Does anyone else experience this?  The horror and adrenaline of dealing with a rage, the calming down, the acceptance and detachment, and then some kind of depression?  Even though Monday she said the most horrible things anyone has ever said to me, I don't really feel hurt by it because it was all pure nonsense.  That kinda scares me.  Am I numb? 

I've come to realize that I always react emotionnally 3 days later. I don't have an explanation, maybe it's the reverse and that's when I can start to look at things more clearly and I feel down.

Anyway, when I've had to deal with rage, histeria, paranoia, etc. I've mostly reacted TOO KIND, and it's only a few days later that I tell myself "I should have walked away/refused this and that etc"

I feel numb too at this stage.

When we went to MC 3 weeks ago, he kept saying (he means it apparently  ) that he was forced in everything (I forced as friends to go to places/I forced him into a r/s with me/I forced him into living together/I even forced him to have a baby... .). I guess it's as absurd as you forcing her to get married... .

At the time, I was chocked I guess, I didn't react much.

And then later, thinking of it, although it didn't make any sense (he's the one who talked about love first, who drove 1000km to come and live with me, really happy when he learnt I was pregnant etc), I felt sad.

Not that I believe ANY of it, but that he can believe this today.

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« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2014, 12:21:10 PM »

Indyan.

Your last line.

"Not that I believe ANY of it, but that he can believe this today."

I hear you. Been there.Am there.

THIS ... .is really what astounds and deeply hurts.

All I can say is... .I REALLY understand.

You WANT him to love you. You WANT him to WANT you.

Your future. All you have planned.

Look at it this way. Lets pick a COMPLETELY implausible and far fetched (crazy) premise... .

Lets say he came home one day and said to you... .

"I KNOW you are a bank robber by day. ANd you have been robbing banks because secretly you are addicted and using heroin"... .

And for THOSE reasons... .I just CAN"t love you... .be with you... .want you.

You would first be RATTLED that he is saying those things.

You would be RATTLED because they are SO PREPOSTEROUS.

You would be SHOCKED that he even THOUGHT these things.

BUT... .it would REALLY scare you ... .if he TRULY believed this stuff.

Because ... .if he DID... .he would not want you. NOT want to be with you.

Now of course the stuff he is saying is not THAT far fetched on balance... .but get this... .TO YOU it is.

Having a child... .beign together ... etc...

Are BIG and SERIOUS things.

To have the story rewritten and he begin to seemingly BELIEVE the rewritten and WRONG story... .is HIGHLY unsettling.

But ... .I have read /learned that this is part of the BPD disorder.

You will find LOTS of posts of non;s telling the same story.

But as one who has and still goes thru this.

Take it from me.

You NEED to come to peace with it. You have to let go of the fear. You have to understand that you CANNOT change his mind on ANY distorted thoughts he might have.

IF he wakes up one day and TRULY believes you are a bank robber/drug addict... .

AND that is what he leaves... .

STEP BACK... .WAY BACK... .and try to see that YEARS FROM NOW... .

You will be saying ... .WOW... .what a mistake HE made.

AND wow... ho ill lhe must have been.

Look ... .none of us who want to save our marriage wants a CRAZY based decision to be the thing that does it. I GET that.

But... .think of this for a minute... .

IF they have the CAPACITY ... .or are in a place to actually BELIEVE this kind of of crazy... .?

WHat does that mean OVERALL?


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« Reply #45 on: October 25, 2014, 04:42:06 PM »

IF they have the CAPACITY ... .or are in a place to actually BELIEVE this kind of of crazy... .?

WHat does that mean OVERALL?

well, actually, I don't know.

I keep wondering of what it means and I can't answer that question.

Does it mean he didn't love me truly?

That I loved him more than he loved me? (my mum just told me that on the phone, thanks mum)

That his love is like the weather and changes with the seasons?

That I can't (re)build a relationship on something that fragile?

One thingfor sure is that I WILL NOT REBUILD without him saying LOUD AND CLEAR that he didn't mean all that crap and say that he WANTS US together. It won't be from my decision only.

Ah, and he said that the first time he left for about a week (just before I got pregnant), he shouldn't have come back... .

It is horrible, the sentence itself is horrid. But I must have gotten used to all this as it doesn't hurt that much anymore.

When it's TOO BIG, it just doesn't make any sense anymore.
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« Reply #46 on: October 25, 2014, 04:46:25 PM »

STEP BACK... .WAY BACK... .and try to see that YEARS FROM NOW... .

You will be saying ... .WOW... .what a mistake HE made.

I already try to do that today. I keep telling myself that he's losing more than I am.

He's alone, far from his child (and also my D10 whom he likes very much and myself). He's "planning" to get his own appartment in an ugly city that is convenient for transport. He's destroyed the idea of family he cherished so much.

Not that my like is easy, but I've got my kids with me.

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