Blaming - when is it appropriate?

[Ziggiddy]

I think we grew up - us with BPD mothers/fathers learning very capably to take on blame.

In my family it was the central theme.

All about finding out whose fault this is and punishing, criticising, shaming.

From the other side, it was about abject apology, martyrdom and days of crawling and grovelling like a kicked puppy to be let back at the table. This causes me to be vigilantly careful in laying blame and extremely quick and vocal about accepting blame.

These things made it very hard for me to understand that it is actually quite healthy to place appropriate levels of blame on the person who did the thing. That is actually the beginning of the process of forgiveness - especially MOST especially self forgiveness.

I am learning to say "Yeah ok I did the thing. It was wrong and I'm sorry. I will try not to do it again."

It's not working perfectly but it's a place to start.

How do YOU deal with the blame dynamic? Do you have ideas/tools/responses that work for you? or that don't that you'd like to change?

How do YOU see blame?

[pessim-optimist]

This is a very interesting topic!

I think this is central in the dynamic:

All about finding out whose fault this is and punishing, criticising, shaming.

From the other side, it was about abject apology, martyrdom and days of crawling and grovelling like a kicked puppy to be let back at the table.

Aside from apology (if appropriate) there isn't anything that is healthy in this pattern is there?

I think a lot of us missed the freedom of making a mistake, having it pointed out lovingly by our parent and being shown how to do it better, or what to do instead. A child that experiences that is quick and happy in admitting it and moving on to do better. There is nothing to lose and everything to win here.

The point being - identify the problem, correct it, and happily move on. Versus - blame, punish, and drown the child in shame without any help, solutions or way out.

How do YOU deal with the blame dynamic? Do you have ideas/tools/responses that work for you? or that don't that you'd like to change?

How do YOU see blame?

For me, this has shifted from passively accepting blame to actively taking responsibility for my actions.

The goal is to make things better: to correct a problem (if there actually is one), or to restore a relationship (if I have wronged someone).

If I did something that needs apology/correction, I do it sincerely and move on.

Any time I catch myself drowning in guilt/feelings of shame I talk to myself gently,   and remind myself that this issue is done and over with, and that it's going to be ok, everyone messes up.

(Having come from an atheistic background and coming to understand the christian concept of forgiveness has also helped me tremendously).

[HappyChappy]

Never had a problem being “blamed” fairly as  how else do we learn ? However, I use to get angry if someone was clearly being unjustly blamed, Narcissist style. So for example, I was a campaigner for gay rights and racism, despite not personally being affected. Yet I did feel an affinity to those who experienced prejudice. I now realise, as the scapegoat, I also experienced a prejudice.

Since learning about BPD, there’s no anger anymore. What use is there in getting angry with someone who isn’t ever going to change ? There is no learning opportunity for such people. I guess that sort of thinking leads to jails full of people who refuse to admit their guilt, and high re-offending levels. I also note my NPD and BPD relatives never apologies, admit guilt or back down, but I only observed this after realising they were BPD.

[Harri]

Ziggiddy!  I am glad to see you back again.  Your posts always smile to me, even if the topic is a bit sad.  You have such a great energy about you.   

I have a hard time with blame.  I don't really know what it is to be honest.

it was about abject apology, martyrdom and days of crawling and grovelling like a kicked puppy to be let back at the table.

Yes!  I cringe inside when i think of the times I was actually on my knees begging for forgiveness and then walking around flogging myself.  I thought it was just me that blamed myself.  It is loong after the fact before I look at the role the other person played (sometimes even years later.  I am thinking about my exbf here in particular).  After reading your post, it made me think that maybe it is common for us to do this to ourselves?  It seems to me like people raised in normal families usually blame the other person first and then bring it around to look within.  Is that accurate?  By the time I am looking at the other persons role, it is usually past whatever time most people think is normal.  so if I want to ask a question or seek clarification or 'closure' I am sometimes met with "Harri, why are you bringing up history" and "You are still holding onto this?" as if there is some kind of time limit and as if I have been holding a grudge for a long time.  It is not that though.  It is that it really does take me a while to process things and I look within first.

My tendency is to assume blame for everything, so not taking responsibility for things is usually not an issue for me.    I have gotten a bit better, but I do then find myself pointing, or wanting to point, my finger at other people and i am not sure that is appropriate or if that is blame or more accusatory anger? 

Ummmm... .so when you ask how I deal with blame... .I think my response is a good indication that I am a total mess with it.    

[Ziggiddy]

Interesting replies.

Pess-opt you made a couple of observations there that really struck me.

Aside from apology (if appropriate) there isn't anything that is healthy in this pattern is there?

I think a lot of us missed the freedom of making a mistake, having it pointed out lovingly by our parent and being shown how to do it better, or what to do instead. A child that experiences that is quick and happy in admitting it and moving on to do better. There is nothing to lose and everything to win here.

The point being - identify the problem, correct it, and happily move on. Versus - blame, punish, and drown the child in shame without any help, solutions or way out.

  it's going to be ok, everyone messes up.

You made me really think there. I paused to wonder what it would have been like for a parent to say "It's ok - everyone messes up. Your mistakes aren't the most important thing about you" rather than "Ziggiddy! You STUPID girl! how can any child of MINE be so stupid?" To be shown how to do something a different way or learn how to remember things (I used to lose my shoes because I'd take them off and leave them somewhere and then forget where) "How could you LOSE them? You're SIX now. Don't you know how much they COST? Don't you care how hard I work to get you shoes for school?"

No I still find it hard to shake blame. I'm a bit like Harri - it feels like it must be my fault so I quickly take it to me before some one can throw it at me. It hurts less even if it doesn't make sense.

I love the last things you wrote  -Christian concept of forgiveness matters to me a good deal. It has to be based on soundness of conduct and evidence of change. Rather different than my parents' version which is ignore and accept all bad behaviour.

HappyChappy I'm glad you have rational peace in this issue. I would like to get there too.

Harri - how very kind your words are - you are always so warmhearted - it is a pleasure and refresher to find out what you have to say.

I must say i cringed too at the thought of you having to actually literally get on your knees to ask for forgiveness. What an awful thing to do to a child.

I am not sure what normal people do, unfortunately. I guess they ignore or don't feel much if they are not at fault. Maybe they are not scared of their mistakes as much?

It may be safer for them to say it and therefore not accept blame?

[Kwamina]

Interesting thread!

After reading your post, it made me think that maybe it is common for us to do this to ourselves?  It seems to me like people raised in normal families usually blame the other person first and then bring it around to look within.  Is that accurate?

I am not sure what normal people do, unfortunately. I guess they ignore or don't feel much if they are not at fault. Maybe they are not scared of their mistakes as much?

It may be safer for them to say it and therefore not accept blame?

The two above quotes about what is healthy behavior and what is not raise a very important question. I think that people raised in a healthy environment will place blame appropriately, take responsibility for the things they have done wrong themselves without telling themselves they are worthless but only judging their behavior and not their whole person. And also point out to other people what they have done wrong, but in a respectful yet firm manner. Again without totally demonizing that person, but instead focusing on the behavior that you find unpleasant/unacceptable, stating your boundaries and if needed/wanted try to negotiate a change. If you're immediate reaction would always be to put all the blame on the other person, that would be the other extreme and I wouldn't consider that healthy behavior either.

I sometimes look at myself and wonder how I made it this far because I too still find myself learning about what is healthy behavior and what is not because the example set too me was so unhealthy.

[pessim-optimist]

place blame appropriately, take responsibility for the things they have done wrong

... .only judging their behavior and not their whole person.

... .in a respectful yet firm manner... .focusing on the behavior

Well put. Separating the behavior from the person.

I also realized that when I was younger, I used to do both - be very defensive (not wanting to accept blame) but inwardly feeling shame/guilt regardless whether I have done something wrong or not. Feeling bad, because treated badly.

I thought about the automatic acceptance of blame, and imagined it as a picture: like there is a door open, and whatever comes to it, it gets in, and THEN we look at it. That's too late. The door needs to be shut, and if anything arrives at it, we inspect it first. And IF we need to own it, THEN we open the door and accept it. Otherwise, it needs to stay outside, and be shipped back.

No I still find it hard to shake blame. I'm a bit like Harri - it feels like it must be my fault so I quickly take it to me before some one can throw it at me. It hurts less even if it doesn't make sense.

I think it does make sense - it puts you in control (that's absolutely how it should be).

And because you didn't have freedom/control over accepting blame or rejecting it appropriately as a maturing person, you at least started 'taking it' rather than being a passive victim.

Now you are safe, and you can decide whether to accept or reject.

I love the last things you wrote  -Christian concept of forgiveness matters to me a good deal. It has to be based on soundness of conduct and evidence of change.

The absolute love and acceptance is unimaginably peaceful. So very different from the FOO environment that most of us experienced. And the strength and freedom to correct behavior flows naturally out from that acceptance and love.

[Harri]

Hi.  I had to think about this blame stuff some more.  In another post, I had said that my habit of looking within and taking blame/responsibility has become a sort of masochistic game I play on myself so I can punish and hurt myself by reinforcing the lingering belief that I am bad and not worthy.  I forgot all about posting that until today when I was rereading that particular thread.  It is true, I sometimes still use blame as a way to victimize myself at least in my personal life.  As such, it is not the same as taking blame or responsibility.  It's more about being a martyr and eventually I feel resentment.  Ziggiddy, what you said about taking blame because it hurts less than if someone else puts it on you really struck a chord with me.  Now that pessim-optimist said it, I can see that it is, for me at least, about giving myself a sense of control.  That makes total sense.

Pessim-optimist and Kwamina thanks for giving an image of what taking blame looks like. 

I think that people raised in a healthy environment will place blame appropriately, take responsibility for the things they have done wrong themselves without telling themselves they are worthless but only judging their behavior and not their whole person. And also point out to other people what they have done wrong, but in a respectful yet firm manner. Again without totally demonizing that person, but instead focusing on the behavior that you find unpleasant/unacceptable, stating your boundaries and if needed/wanted try to negotiate a change.

and

I thought about the automatic acceptance of blame, and imagined it as a picture: like there is a door open, and whatever comes to it, it gets in, and THEN we look at it. That's too late. The door needs to be shut, and if anything arrives at it, we inspect it first. And IF we need to own it, THEN we open the door and accept it. Otherwise, it needs to stay outside, and be shipped back.

That is some good good stuff you both said.  Thank you.

Can anybody give an example of the words one can use to express blame to myself and to others without being a martyr or being too forceful with another?  I have a better idea of what it looks like and feel like to take appropriate blame/responsibility but I still can't work out what words can be used.

[Ziggiddy]

The two above quotes about what is healthy behavior and what is not raise a very important question. I think that people raised in a healthy environment will place blame appropriately, take responsibility for the things they have done wrong themselves without telling themselves they are worthless but only judging their behavior and not their whole person.

Excellent point, Kwamina. It shows that  we were much more endangered by being to blame. I thought a lot about this. i guess this type of 'overfear' of blame comes from excessive punishment for making mistakes. That leads to other problems.

And I see what you mean about the behavior becoming the whole person - it's not that you made a mistake - it's that you're a terrible person for making a mistake. Again being blamed is then overdangerous.

I also realized that when I was younger, I used to do both - be very defensive (not wanting to accept blame) but inwardly feeling shame/guilt regardless whether I have done something wrong or not. Feeling bad, because treated badly.

I thought about the automatic acceptance of blame, and imagined it as a picture: like there is a door open, and whatever comes to it, it gets in, and THEN we look at it. That's too late. The door needs to be shut, and if anything arrives at it, we inspect it first. And IF we need to own it, THEN we open the door and accept it. Otherwise, it needs to stay outside, and be shipped back.

I think it does make sense - it puts you in control (that's absolutely how it should be).

And because you didn't have freedom/control over accepting blame or rejecting it appropriately as a maturing person, you at least started 'taking it' rather than being a passive victim.

Now you are safe, and you can decide whether to accept or reject.

From reading that, Pess-opt I see I have not reached a part of my development to 'ship it back'. I would like to but I cannot get the mastery of it! It FEELS like everything is my fault even if it doesn't seem so rationally. I wish i knew how to make my thoughts make as much sense - or rather feel as true or right as my emotions. It can take days for it to filter through, or sometimes it doesn't happen at all. This frustrates me.

I like your point about being in control - very true. I hate being passive - too painful. maybe there is some way to apply that to guilt.

I had said that my habit of looking within and taking blame/responsibility has become a sort of masochistic game I play on myself so I can punish and hurt myself by reinforcing the lingering belief that I am bad and not worthy. 

It is true, I sometimes still use blame as a way to victimize myself at least in my personal life.  As such, it is not the same as taking blame or responsibility.  It's more about being a martyr and eventually I feel resentment. 

Can anybody give an example of the words one can use to express blame to myself and to others without being a martyr or being too forceful with another?  I have a better idea of what it looks like and feel like to take appropriate blame/responsibility but I still can't work out what words can be used.

I feel very much like you Harri although less so in the last few months as I have begun to assert myself to my mother and my friends. I lived in victim mode despite the incessant pain and sadness it caused me. It felt very hard to believe that I wasn't worthless and that I didn't deserve nice friends or a good job or just a pleasant life.

Now even though it may take some time to filter down I get to thinking more like this: (actual recent example)

A constant problem with my hoarder mother is her overloading my (very large) car.

I recently (last week) took a stand about this.

She ignored my request or rather tempered it with "Well at least I didn't get as much as last time."

I felt guilty because I felt like I should commend her on her effort/improvement (reinforce good behaviour) but part of me was angry that she refused to abide by my wishes by only meeting me halfway.

i could NOT let go of blaming myself.

I decided to leave her stuff out of the car and then there was the usual scornful look and click of the tongue.

I then thought "No. This is YOUR baggage and the result of YOUR choices. I acknowledge that you have a hoarding compulsion but that is NOT MY FAULT. I care about you but will not allow your compulsion to be my problem.

You are resourceful and exploitative enough to find someone else to bear your problem" and this was the most important part to me Harri. I said this over and over like a mantra: "I have rights. Other people observe my rights and I observe theirs. I have rights. My rights are just as important as yours."

One of my most persistent thoughts is a line from Hamlet "This above all to thine own self be true" The choices we make dictate the lives we lead.

Not sure if that helps but I am finding it useful! x

[pessim-optimist]

I see I have not reached a part of my development to 'ship it back'. I would like to but I cannot get the mastery of it! It FEELS like everything is my fault even if it doesn't seem so rationally.

One of the most important insights I have ever gained was that our feelings follow our actions. Not the other way around.

I.e. In the past I would read all kinds of self-help books and never feel like I could apply them, because I didn't feel like I was strong enough, ready enough, courageous enough, etc.

THEN, when I read that we need to start doing what's right/needed in spite of our feelings, and that with time our feelings will adjust appropriately, it was like discovering treasure!

In general, when we are healthy, our feelings are an important guide to us, and we need to really listen to what they are saying. But when we know that our feelings are misleading us, we need to heal/retrain them.

How about starting to ignore your feelings in this area and paying attention to what your mind is telling you and acting accordingly?