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Author Topic: I'm so scared, and at a total loss...  (Read 584 times)
Ceruleanblue
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« on: October 22, 2014, 01:12:06 AM »

I'm so sick of feeling scared. No wonder my anxiety is off the charts. uBPDh is back to saying crap like "I don't know if I even want to be married", "people drift apart", "people change their minds"... .and my fave: "I'm not sure all that's wrong with us can be fixed". I've told him I'll try harder, stop mentioning his kids(he is mentioning them more though), and pretty much do anything to make it work. He says he doesn't want to consider anyone else's(meaning my)feelings. Every view he professed to have about marriage must have been a lie... .


He on the other hand, doesn't seem to care. He keeps saying "he doesn't know what he wants"... .back to that again. His therapist told him today, YET AGAIN, that he needs to decide, and that it's unfair to keep doing this to me. I sent him in with a list, and number one on that list was "divorce threats", and how I felt it was emotional torture. He said she agreed.

He's started being vicious about all this with his kids: towards me that is. He even talked to my Mom tonight, and he's still going off about my fb post from three years ago where I said his kids can accept our marriage or go jump. That makes me evil, and to blame for everything according to uBPDH. My Mom is just stunned, and she got off the phone and told me he is just really mean, and something to the effect of something being wrong with him. I'd called him to tell him that instead of blaming ME, he should just go see his kids. I'm not sure he even can though because some of the girls are mad at him. What a mess.

He enjoys keeping me scared, and frantic feeling. He enjoys not giving me any reassurance. He pretends to be noble like he's considering my feelings, and doesn't want to keep hurting me. What does he think this is doing? He's a roller coaster, and he dared to say I'm contributing. Nope, not taking that blame. I've always been committed, it's him who plays these head games with me, with the threats. I've caved, and given him what he's asked for, apologized, taken blame I don't deserve, and he's still not happy.

How do I stop being so scared? I feel like my life if blowing up yet again, and there is nothing I can do to stop it. He left sweet notes on the bathroom mirror, every morning for the last couple months, now this. How can you just go so immediately cold? What happened to the guy who begged me to take him back? I just want to stop feeling scared.

His psychiatrist just upped his medicine to the maximum dosage. He's been on this med for about two months now, and things did get better, but on Monday, things go ugly. He went from being silly and playful, to full on rage. Of course it's my fault, and maybe it is. I shouldn't have tried to talk to him about his girls(his three daughters hate me, and I've tried everything, his family is fed up with how his girls act, but my uBPDh won't stand up to them, and he blames me for all). I should have known better. I feel I'm starting to buy into some of his guilting of me. He's been at it three years. It got so ugly I ran out the back door, and he chased me, had me on the ground, and a lady stopped and told me to call the police on him. What an embarrassing mess my life has become.

He blames me for most of this, yet I've stayed, I meant my marriage vows, yet HE wants out? I've lived with his constant threats, anger, rages, projection, blame, and HE wants out? I can fight fair, and he can't, yet he wants out.

I agreed to give him a "break" a while back, and I was mostly fine, he kept calling, and he wanted to come home, sent me a promisary email of all he'd do to be better. Why did he even beg to come back if this is all he wanted to do? It's been his choice to not see his newborn grandbaby, because his daughter doesn't want me around, but he resents me for it. Everything is a NO WIN situation for me. I feel like I'm going crazy trying to hang onto something that is essentially broken.

I'd thought we'd had a sort of good past couple weeks. Come to find out, he tells my Mom they weren't that great. Well, I didn't do any abusive crap, but of course he did. He gets mad at silly things, and blows them up, he creates drama, then blames me.

How do I play this? How best to stop this craziness? I'm really afraid that this time, he means it. He gave me "one more chance" after I begged and pleaded(so humiliating), but he's cruel now. He says he won't ever threaten again(like he's done for three years), that next time he'll just leave, and be done. What's funny, it the rage, and escalation is always HIS doing, then I get scared and panic. How dare he say I'm not a "trial basis", when he's the PD one. Oh, and he's recently started playing the "I have mental issues" card, as if to say he can't help being abusive to me.

I really, really need advice. I don't want to make this worse, and I'd like my marriage to work. I've given in on everything, I'll do anything. It's like he only see's bad in me, full time now. Painted black. How do I deal with this, and make this better, or is that just impossible?

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Indyan
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« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2014, 05:39:42 AM »

His therapist told him today, YET AGAIN, that he needs to decide, and that it's unfair to keep doing this to me.

Sorry but his T is stupid. Telling him to decide doesn't make any sense when his emotions are playing tricks on him. Not saying that it's not living hell for you, I'm going through worse than this at the moment, so I know what it is.

He enjoys keeping me scared, and frantic feeling.

[... .] and he dared to say I'm contributing. Nope, not taking that blame.

I've caved, and given him what he's asked for, apologized, taken blame I don't deserve, and he's still not happy.

It's urgent that you understand your role in this r/s. Not that it is your fault at all, but you are probably somehow enabling some of his behaviours. Look at the lessons here.



How do I stop being so scared? I was there just 10 days ago. I then decided to come out of FOG as this is just could not last any longer. I did things to help me feel in control of my life again (seeing a lawyer in case he goes for court etc... .) It sounds like your main fear is divorce. Maybe you should try to think of why it scares you so much, and what would happen if he filed for divorce. There are people here who filed for divorce and stopped in the middle of it, others even remarried. Divorce does not necessarily mean the end of your r/s, it can also mean a new start, on sane grounds.

How can you just go so immediately cold? What happened to the guy who begged me to take him back? I just want to stop feeling scared. I know how you feel, it is very scary (I even posted here "He was Terminator" and I've also asked my BPD these questions. But there's no point. If they could answer this, they wouldn't be ill. The extreme coldness could show another PD however. At least that's what my T told me about BPD, and now he's suspecting STPD or even early stages of Schizophrenia.

Of course it's my fault, and maybe it is. Nope, you REALLY need to get yourself out of FOG. Any therapist who could help you in this?

It got so ugly I ran out the back door, and he chased me, had me on the ground, and a lady stopped and told me to call the police on him. What an embarrassing mess my life has become. Did you call the police? You also need to seriously consider reinforcing your boundaries (see lessons here).

How do I play this? How best to stop this craziness? I'm really afraid that this time, he means it. He gave me "one more chance" after I begged and pleaded(so humiliating), but he's cruel now.  You cannot "stop his craziness"! But you can WORK ON YOURSELF. Reinforcing your boundaries, coming out of FOG, changing the way you communicate with him.

Oh, and he's recently started playing the "I have mental issues" card, as if to say he can't help being abusive to me. Yes, he might use this as an excuse. But he might also be telling the truth and telling you he needs help. He may need a different treatment/therapy or even diagnosis. Also, he's just stating a fact: he cannot change his ways himself, because he's ill. When you ask him "Why are you so cold?", the correct answer is "I'm ill".

And you need to change the way you react to his provocations, it will help you both.


I really, really need advice. I don't want to make this worse, and I'd like my marriage to work. In order to try and make things work, we need Radical Acceptance, meaning to be able to accept reality. If you try too hard, it will fall back on you.



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takingandsending
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« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2014, 10:47:17 AM »

Cerulean,

I am so sorry that you are having this terrible time. 

It sounds like you need a moment of fresh air to breathe. Is there anything that you can do for yourself in this moment to ease some of the anxiety and pressure you are feeling? Can you take a walk, talk with a good friend, listen to some music that you love - anything that is self-caring right now?

Indyan has a lot of good points, and I think that you have been through many of the Lessons and tools before. Try to do some positive things for yourself at this moment, and then return to what you know, what you can accept and the what you need to do will become a little more clear. My heart and thoughts go out to you.

Please keep posting and let us know how you are doing.   
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2014, 03:42:49 PM »

Thanks so much for your replies. I truly have radically accepted that this is WHO HE IS. I know I can't change it, but I want to stop adding to it(I've really tried), and he is seeking help. It's almost like his seeking help just reinforced that he's ill, and that I'm just adding to his stress. I feel that's a cop out? He's always blamed ME, no matter what happens. I think that's the FOG you are talking about. We've had horrible trouble with his three adult daughters, I even attended therapy with one, therapist said she was horrid to me. What more can I do? I can't fix them, any more than I can uBPDh, yet he seems to hold an immense grudge. He was telling my Mom just yesterday that all this is my fault due to a facebook post I made three years ago(and it wasn't anything bad even). I can't change his reality, which is unfair or simply not truthful to me, because he believes it. He believes so many negative, bad things about me.

I called a psychiatrist today, to get on some meds for my depression(which is purely due to my situation), and my anxiety(which I've had for 15 years off/on). I'm trying to get myself to a better place, and I think I have a good therapist myself right now. It just feels like he's painted me black, and even giving him entirely his own way about everything, still isn't enough to keep him with me. Why did all his views on everything change? Did he just lie to me? He must have. I feel like such an idiot. I knew the signs to watch out for, and he still duped me. The last guy I was with was a Socio, and a recent therapist told me that uBPDh actually sounds like he has Antisocial Personality Disorder too. Either way BPD, or APD, neither are good.

I told uBPDh my whole sad past, trusted him, told him what I wanted and expected, and he molded him self into that, maybe? I came in with great self esteem, and strong boundaries, all of which slowly got trampled after I married him. He doesn't want to say his girls are a huge factor, but I'd say they are at least 75% of our issues. Yeah, we have other issues, I mean he does likely have BPD, and huge anger issues, but almost all our disagreements, or his rages are due to his girls(or his ex). His ex stabbed him on several different occasions, and hit him with a hammer in his sleep, but I'm worse than THAT? He stayed with that for 24 years, but me, trying to be healthy, am just "too much for him to deal with"? I can't reason this out in my head. I feel that I'M doing HIM an immense FAVOR when I took him back, stayed committed, didn't run, and am trying to modify myself to not make his uBPD worse!

He seems to be faking being noble(thinking his leaving is better for me), and I don't buy it for a minute. He wants his girls back, and they'll never accept me. He wants to live selfishly, and he has no remorse, or empathy. He wasted years I'll never get back, and he's made me a mess. I'm close to a nervous breakdown. Same thing he did to his ex, she spent time in the psych ward more than once, I think. When she wasn't stabbing him, I guess.

I had no idea I was marrying someone "crazy". I felt so bad for him, and thought his sad past would make him understanding of mine. We'd both gotten away from abusers. I'm going to re read the above post, and try my best to follow advice. I'm currently reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells", yet another thing that angers him... .
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Indyan
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« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2014, 04:15:07 PM »

I had no idea I was marrying someone "crazy". I felt so bad for him, and thought his sad past would make him understanding of mine. We'd both gotten away from abusers.

Same here. Except that I now realize that he's always been the victim. ALWAYS.

His parents were horrible. Kids at school and teachers were horrible. All his previous bosses and collegues.

And his ex of course.

When I met him he was just separated and told me in a very convincing way that his ex was a Narcissist.

And now he tells his family, lawyer and therapist (he doesn't have ANY friends, not even one) that I'm the horrible one and he's the victim... .once more.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2014, 09:57:26 PM »

I think this is a big one:

How do I stop being so scared?

What are you scared of?

Scared he will leave / divorce you?

Scared he will hurt you? (physically or otherwise)

Scared of something else?

I got over most of my fear when I realized a couple things about my own fears: First, most of the things I was "afriad" my wife would do... .she had already done... .many times, and I had survived. Second, for most of those things I was afraid of, I could protect myself quite well from using boundaries.

I found that it was important to pay attention to my fears, but try not to get caught up in reacting to them.
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« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2014, 10:02:11 PM »

I think this is a big one:

How do I stop being so scared?

What are you scared of?

Scared he will leave / divorce you?

Scared he will hurt you? (physically or otherwise)

Scared of something else?

I got over most of my fear when I realized a couple things about my own fears: First, most of the things I was "afriad" my wife would do... .she had already done... .many times, and I had survived. Second, for most of those things I was afraid of, I could protect myself quite well from using boundaries.

I found that it was important to pay attention to my fears, but try not to get caught up in reacting to them.

Wow. Your first line there is absolutely simplified brilliance. What I feared, I realized she'd already done and I survived. You know I have been in this hyper state of fear about cheating since it happened months ago. But I totally and completely survived it. It's amazing though I never conceptually viewed it how you word it here. Very true. Thank you.
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anxiety5
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« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2014, 10:11:00 PM »

Thanks so much for your replies. I truly have radically accepted that this is WHO HE IS. I know I can't change it, but I want to stop adding to it(I've really tried), and he is seeking help. It's almost like his seeking help just reinforced that he's ill, and that I'm just adding to his stress. I feel that's a cop out? He's always blamed ME, no matter what happens. I think that's the FOG you are talking about. We've had horrible trouble with his three adult daughters, I even attended therapy with one, therapist said she was horrid to me. What more can I do? I can't fix them, any more than I can uBPDh, yet he seems to hold an immense grudge. He was telling my Mom just yesterday that all this is my fault due to a facebook post I made three years ago(and it wasn't anything bad even). I can't change his reality, which is unfair or simply not truthful to me, because he believes it. He believes so many negative, bad things about me.

I called a psychiatrist today, to get on some meds for my depression(which is purely due to my situation), and my anxiety(which I've had for 15 years off/on). I'm trying to get myself to a better place, and I think I have a good therapist myself right now. It just feels like he's painted me black, and even giving him entirely his own way about everything, still isn't enough to keep him with me. Why did all his views on everything change? Did he just lie to me? He must have. I feel like such an idiot. I knew the signs to watch out for, and he still duped me. The last guy I was with was a Socio, and a recent therapist told me that uBPDh actually sounds like he has Antisocial Personality Disorder too. Either way BPD, or APD, neither are good.

I told uBPDh my whole sad past, trusted him, told him what I wanted and expected, and he molded him self into that, maybe? I came in with great self esteem, and strong boundaries, all of which slowly got trampled after I married him. He doesn't want to say his girls are a huge factor, but I'd say they are at least 75% of our issues. Yeah, we have other issues, I mean he does likely have BPD, and huge anger issues, but almost all our disagreements, or his rages are due to his girls(or his ex). His ex stabbed him on several different occasions, and hit him with a hammer in his sleep, but I'm worse than THAT? He stayed with that for 24 years, but me, trying to be healthy, am just "too much for him to deal with"? I can't reason this out in my head. I feel that I'M doing HIM an immense FAVOR when I took him back, stayed committed, didn't run, and am trying to modify myself to not make his uBPD worse!

He seems to be faking being noble(thinking his leaving is better for me), and I don't buy it for a minute. He wants his girls back, and they'll never accept me. He wants to live selfishly, and he has no remorse, or empathy. He wasted years I'll never get back, and he's made me a mess. I'm close to a nervous breakdown. Same thing he did to his ex, she spent time in the psych ward more than once, I think. When she wasn't stabbing him, I guess.

I had no idea I was marrying someone "crazy". I felt so bad for him, and thought his sad past would make him understanding of mine. We'd both gotten away from abusers. I'm going to re read the above post, and try my best to follow advice. I'm currently reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells", yet another thing that angers him... .

Again I struggle with the duality of the situation. We radically accept why they are allowed to radically reject. We accept their flaws, and lose ourselves while they demand perfection. Through our love of them, we accept that they can't love us back. We must validate their sometimes purposeful actions that seek to hurt us. I know. They have an illness. I know there are ways to view boundaries. But at the end of the day, isn't this just an advanced form of codependent behavior? Enabling the harmful actions of another person through acceptance rather than accountability? Furthermore isn't this just a highly skilled way to control them by giving them enough space to feel free yet reinforcing their malevolent behaviors through tolerance which fosters dependence from the disabled? I'm half dead serious and half devil's advocate here btw. Sometimes I see ok, I get what they mean. Other times I feel like these reinforcement behaviors were manipulated and probably written by a high functioning Therapist with BPD themselves ha ha.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2014, 11:12:13 PM »

Oh, my uBPDh portrayed himself as the victim of his ex wife too. In actuality he was, but it isn't that simple. She did stab him more than once, and hit him with a hammer while he slept. Those are true, and I've seen the scars, and his kids vouch that it's true, but what did HE do? Not justifying, and I'll never let him push me that far, but they were both willing to be awful to each other. I'm not willing to be that person, ever.

The above poster who said they expect us to be perfect, yet we need to radically accept them, hit the nail on the head. I've radically accepted that uBPDh is who he is, and that only he can change that. It does hurt though that I'm expected to be perfect when I'm dealing with so many of his issues. He acts like a typical abuser: gaslighting, taking my debit card, mocking, belittling, contempt, constant threats, he lies... .the list goes on. I'm not even sure all this is just due to BPD. I just know it's all wrong.

I had two therapy sessions today, and took my Mom to both. I need to decide which therapist to keep going to, and I wanted her input. I showed one of them the bruise I have, and I've also taken a picture of it. He told me I should have called the police, and I have a witness to part of what happened. A lady out on a walk, stopped and said I should call the police. uBPDh knows better than to hit me, but he sure gets physically aggressive, and I end up slightly hurt once in a while. I'm so sick of that crap. I also went to my family doctor, and got something to tide me over until I see a psychiatrist. Next week I see the psychiatrist, to manage my OCD, and anxiety. Got a lot accomplished today, and am feeling somewhat better.

As a funny aside(although not really), one of uBPDh's complaints about "us" has been that I'm now insecure about him seeing me naked, so after my shower, I went into the bedroom naked. He told me I "didn't do it right" and that I should have kissed him and been more spontaneous. Give him what he asks for, and he finds fault. He's never going to be happy, because he likes being disappointed and miserable. I'm really seeing this is his issue, not mine. I can't kill myself trying for someone who keeps changing the rules, or just finds fault. I'm way, way smarter than that.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2014, 11:57:48 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) That is a lot of great progress for you! Keep working on it. Knowing what is your H's crap, and not picking it up when he blames you for it is huge!

uBPDh knows better than to hit me, but he sure gets physically aggressive, and I end up slightly hurt once in a while. I'm so sick of that crap.

Uhm... .do you know what constitutes domestic violence? It isn't just hitting. Here are a few things that usually qualify: (local laws vary)



  • Physical restraint


  • Threats of physical harm, verbal or non-verbal


  • Blocking your access to leave


  • Keeping you away from your phone


  • Controlling/limiting your access to money or other things of yours.




Think about what he does, and when and how he goes over the line.

Please consider a firm boundary here. If he does any of these things, call the police immediately. Depending on how you expect him to react, you may choose to warn him before you call, or notify him of the new limits. Either way, enforcing this boundary is your job!

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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2014, 12:47:39 PM »

Yeah, my therapist said I should have called the police when that lady walking by suggested it. I did show that therapist the bruise. He asked why I didn't call, and I told him I didn't want to make trouble for uBPDH, and frankly I was afraid he really would leave me if I went that far. I have my line in the sand(which uBPDH knows about), and while I realize he does get physically abusive at times, I really don't think he'll ever go beyond this. I know, I know, that is rarely the case, but even my own Mom, who'd never let herself be hit(my Dad never laid hands on her EVER), says that my uBPDh thinks way too much of himself, and his job, and everything to ever do that. Plus, his ex was the one who stabbed him, and if he'd ever gotten badly physical with her, she'd have called to police in a hot minute.

I just think it's all part of this. I know if he ever goes further, I'll be forced to take different actions. I'd love to think that his recent drug increase will help his impulse control, and his rages, but it barely seems to take the edge off. He apparently told his psychiatrist that through all these dosage increases, he can't tell much difference. I told him not to get discouraged, and his doctor my suggest another drug if this latest increase doesn't work.

I'm trying to focus on me, and trying to find my peace in this storm, but I'm also trying to give him everything he says he needs to make him happier. You know when he isn't saying "I don't know what it will take to make me happy", or "I don't know what I want". It all feels like a game. It's hard when you can see what they should do, but they just keep repeating the cycle. I'd love to see him get in with a therapist that works specifically with his type of personality disorder, one who doesn't enable, or actually gets through to him. I'd love to see him do some research and self reflection. I guess I'm lucky he finally went to see a psychiatrist. I think he only did that because he thought I'd reached the end of my rope(guess he liked me better then than now), and his "therapist" finally, finally suggested it.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2014, 01:21:50 PM »

Cerulean, I agree with Grey Kitty here. Do you have a safety plan for yourself if your husband becomes physical with you? I am concerned for your safety and well being. Also, please consider if you are getting trapped on the drama triangle. There are no winners anywhere on that Victim-Persecutor-Rescuer dynamic. If you see yourself entering one of those roles, especially after you have done such great work taking care of yourself in the separation, what can you do to step out of the triangle?

Hang in there. And let us know how you are doing.
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Indyan
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« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2014, 01:26:30 PM »

The problem is if you don't do anything about it (and I don't mean just saying it's bad to do it), he'll go thinking it's not that bad.

Of course they don't like when we call the police, noone likes it.

I called the police after BPDh told the kids and me to go to the hotel.

I've no idea what will happen between us at this moment. But I'm pretty sure he will never try and kick us out ever again!
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Indyan
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« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2014, 01:29:25 PM »

Also, please consider if you are getting trapped on the drama triangle. There are no winners anywhere on that Victim-Persecutor-Rescuer dynamic. If you see yourself entering one of those roles, especially after you have done such great work taking care of yourself in the separation, what can you do to step out of the triangle?

You mean, we should never accept to play any of these roles?
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2014, 02:29:57 PM »

I do have a plan, and if he was the type that calling the police would have been effective, I would have done it. He was just too close, and had himself too convinced that divorce is the best thing. He means for HIM. It's all about him. No question, other than financially, leaving uBPDh would be best for me, but I don't just want the easy way out. I took my vows seriously, and I'm not a quitter.

In no way can I rescue him, or enact change in him, that has to come from him, I realize that. I'm also not willing to just be his victim either, which is why I am trying to get better at walking away. I'm just afraid that the more I just walk away every time he gets upset, that we'll have essentially no relationship. He's already erected such walls, and he gives me so little time or emotion. All the things his ex complained about. All uBPDh's love and effort goes towards his adult kids, which is way, way more than dysfunctional. They are surely PD like him and his crazy ex. How could they not be, it's all they ever saw.

I get no empathy, no understanding, very little kindness, and he thinks he can buy me. His whole outlook is just so warped, that it's like we speak different languages. I still have the overwhelming feeling that he has made his mind up about leaving, but he is playing cat and mouse with me. He's enjoying watching me dance to his commands.

I came into this relationship with strong boundaries and great self esteem. I'm going to get those back, one way or another(I still have good self esteem, I just think HE thinks I'm a pile of poop... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). He's painted me black, but it doesn't mean I actually am. 
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« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2014, 02:48:40 PM »

I've behaved like that a lot too, until last week.

I mean, being the one who believes in us, in him, and reminding him of our love etc.

But it didn't work.

Even my therapist told me to stop, and he knows LOADS about BPD. He told me at the moment BPDh knows he has some power on me with this, and he uses it.

I'm not saying you have to say the opposite, mind you. But being neutral may be an option.

That's what I've started doing myself, after BPD said during MC that "he was forced into the r/s, and forced for everything we've done -including baby." Very hurtful, you can imagine, but even more, very biased. I had a child already and was hesitant about having another baby 10 years later but he had none, and was so happy to become a daddy... .that's just an example.

Now, I'm starting to see things differently. I want to believe I have the choice, to stay or not in the r/s in the future. Even if I desperately want it to work out.

We are not married (although we have a baby and he proposed several times).

You can read my message about this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=235457.0

But I don't want to feel I'm sending "I love you" messages and getting nothing in return. Not that I give to get something in return, but because giving and not receiving is unhealthy, and it destroys us.

So, I've stopped proposing things, trying to make him care, responding to his provocations... .

If he loves me, he'll fight for our r/s. I'll be there (I keep this to myself at this stage), but I need things to regain trust. If he ever chooses to believe in us again, he'll have to climb the mountain he's spent so long climbing all the way down.

Yes, he's ill. But I'm a human being nevertheless.
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« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2014, 05:30:12 PM »

Hi Indyan 

Also, please consider if you are getting trapped on the drama triangle. There are no winners anywhere on that Victim-Persecutor-Rescuer dynamic. If you see yourself entering one of those roles, especially after you have done such great work taking care of yourself in the separation, what can you do to step out of the triangle?

You mean, we should never accept to play any of these roles?

Yes. I mean, if we find that we are identifying ourselves with one of these roles, it will keep us stuck on the triangle. For Cerulean, she met her husband and connected with him based on shared vulnerabilities. I felt that way about my wife. But it moved pretty quickly in my case to some Rescuing. And we spent a lot of time there. Then, after a while, I felt less like Rescuing, started feeling some resentment and began demanding my needs be considered. On to Persecution. My wife moved between Victim to Persecutor to retaliate whenever I had the temerity to complain that a need I had wasn't being met. At which point, I shifted to Victim. And on and on.

So, no matter where you are at on the triangle, no position is particularly more enviable or better than the other. They are all pretty awful. And the only thing that makes sense when you are on the triangle is to get off of it. But we have to believe in ourselves to step away, that we can take care of ourselves, that we will in fact be okay. It takes a lot of courage to move beyond these familiar dynamics that are killing us, and I really want to see myself and anyone else facing these extreme challenges keep working to cultivate that courage.
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« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2014, 05:49:23 PM »

Hi Takingandsending,

and did you manage to get off this triangle?

I find hard not to be the rescuer, I mean when I see someone needing help, I just want to go and help!

But "helping" (or trying to) BPDh gave him a kind of power by allowing to refuse my help and hurt me.

Now I'm stopping all this, at least in my way I relate to him (I still believe he needs treatment and willing to help undercover).

And working toward coming out of FOG has helped me reject the position of the victim.

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« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2014, 06:35:15 PM »

Indyan,

I am trying my best. I rescue less often. I am even learning to resist the urge to rescue my S8, as it really isn't helping him. It seems to be helping. I try to catch  myself when I am joining as the victim, as well. Weak muscles, but at least I am working out now.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2014, 02:42:51 PM »

Excerpt
His ex stabbed him on several different occasions, and hit him with a hammer in his sleep, but I'm worse than THAT? He stayed with that for 24 years, but me, trying to be healthy, am just "too much for him to deal with"? I can't reason this out in my head. I feel that I'M doing HIM an immense FAVOR when I took him back, stayed committed, didn't run, and am trying to modify myself to not make his uBPD worse!

So this person has a lot of unresolved trauma and will behave that way.  We don’t love someone out of trauma.  Indeed, getting close to a loved one is what triggers trauma symptoms.

This isn’t about bending over backwards to please someone or be the perfect mate.  Do not get hooked into his story.  None of that will resolve anything.  He is acting the way he acts because he is ill…he would respond to anyone he is close to this way.  The history he has with his ex wife shows two people who likely have unresolved trauma from childhood, acting out that trauma together because they both continued to trigger each other’s worst symptoms. With no awareness of that…they were just caught up in the ‘story’ at the time and reacting to it.  This is how people get hurt.

You are heading in the same direction.

It is very important that you step back and see this as a very serious illness, as trauma, and not personalize it as having to do with your efforts or lack thereof or any particular crappy story.  It’s also important to keep reminding yourself that he will feel good one minute and say things he means while in that feeling state…and his symptoms will cause him to feel exactly the opposite soon after and he will say and act accordingly while in the opposite feeling state.  It’s not about fooling you or being ‘dupped'…it’s the WAY the disorder works.  If you personalize it as being tricked or lied to in a intentional way…you will all the more feel traumatized and act out your trauma, too…and that is what he and his ex were doing to each other.  Don’t go there.  Neither of them had the wherewithal or help to step back and see that they were both acting out trauma and re traumatizing each other and themselves as they became more and more mired in crappy stories they tell each other.  The story is crap.  Do not get hooked into the story. 

You need to step away and take space when he gets ill  or when you feel yourself getting too hooked into his stuff and the crap story.  That is how people get hurt. 

It may be that both of you simply cannot live together right now until he gets more stabilized.

Most if not all domestic violence is the direct result of mental health issues. 

Please make your safety a priority.

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« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2014, 04:50:29 PM »

The story is crap.  Do not get hooked into the story. 

Oh Gosh, this is so true.
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« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2014, 11:14:26 AM »

I hope I don't cross a line here, Ceruleanblue, and if I have, please tell me.

Everyone here has great advice. I will tell you that in the beginning of my relationship with my dBPDh, I did the same that you have. I begged, pleaded... .really degraded myself because I didn't know what was going on. I loved him, I wanted him to stay, and I didn't understand the abuse. I assumed it was me... .I was doing something.

Not only was I wrong, but my "victim" actions actually fueled him. From what I understand, if you make yourself a victim to a pwBPD, they will pounce on it. The irony is they don't like 'weak' people, but they themselves are weak.

I stopped doing that. When I learned the tools, when I learned what's going on his head, and I took the necessary boundaries and steps, the abuse stopped. My dBPDh left a few times, came back in a few weeks. Cleaned himself up.

I hope I didn't cross any lines. I'm not trying to say you are laying the victim at all... I've been there and done that. Best of luck to you <3
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« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2014, 02:49:39 PM »

I hope I don't cross a line here, Ceruleanblue, and if I have, please tell me.

Everyone here has great advice. I will tell you that in the beginning of my relationship with my dBPDh, I did the same that you have. I begged, pleaded... .really degraded myself because I didn't know what was going on. I loved him, I wanted him to stay, and I didn't understand the abuse. I assumed it was me... .I was doing something.

Not only was I wrong, but my "victim" actions actually fueled him. From what I understand, if you make yourself a victim to a pwBPD, they will pounce on it. The irony is they don't like 'weak' people, but they themselves are weak.

I stopped doing that. When I learned the tools, when I learned what's going on his head, and I took the necessary boundaries and steps, the abuse stopped. My dBPDh left a few times, came back in a few weeks. Cleaned himself up.

I hope I didn't cross any lines. I'm not trying to say you are laying the victim at all... I've been there and done that. Best of luck to you <3

Very true. They seek to absorb the traits in others they themselves do not possess. They are weak, and if you are weak, you mirror them. And deep down right or wrong, from flawed upbringing they view themselves as bad. Therefore mirroring them makes you bad or flawed for loving them. That's why these relationships are nearly impossible. A healthy relationship is not one where you have to play games. Act like you are this or that in order to generate a desired response. If borderlines are by definition the edge of sanity and psychosis, what are we for basing our lives and health off a person we must ACT certain ways towards other than how we feel? That seems like we are walking an equally fine line between our own sanity and the PTSD of being devalued and discarded.

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« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2014, 05:18:14 PM »

I hope I don't cross a line here, Ceruleanblue, and if I have, please tell me.

Everyone here has great advice. I will tell you that in the beginning of my relationship with my dBPDh, I did the same that you have. I begged, pleaded... .really degraded myself because I didn't know what was going on. I loved him, I wanted him to stay, and I didn't understand the abuse. I assumed it was me... .I was doing something.

Not only was I wrong, but my "victim" actions actually fueled him. From what I understand, if you make yourself a victim to a pwBPD, they will pounce on it. The irony is they don't like 'weak' people, but they themselves are weak.

I stopped doing that. When I learned the tools, when I learned what's going on his head, and I took the necessary boundaries and steps, the abuse stopped. My dBPDh left a few times, came back in a few weeks. Cleaned himself up.

I hope I didn't cross any lines. I'm not trying to say you are laying the victim at all... I've been there and done that. Best of luck to you <3

Act like you are this or that in order to generate a desired response. If borderlines are by definition the edge of sanity and psychosis, what are we for basing our lives and health off a person we must ACT certain ways towards other than how we feel?

This is why I don't think these relationships are for everyone. I don't feel like I am acting in anyway, in fact I feel like I actually AM stronger, and I have learned to be happy with myself WITHOUT validation from him, or needing him to participate with me on every level.

The more he and I talk (that's another key too, whether or not they are self-aware, and willing to work on it), the better we get. We have been together for 5 years now. He dysregulates... .on average, about once every 4-5 months. In the beginning, it was every 4-5 days.

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« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2014, 08:32:59 PM »

I hope I don't cross a line here, Ceruleanblue, and if I have, please tell me.

Everyone here has great advice. I will tell you that in the beginning of my relationship with my dBPDh, I did the same that you have. I begged, pleaded... .really degraded myself because I didn't know what was going on. I loved him, I wanted him to stay, and I didn't understand the abuse. I assumed it was me... .I was doing something.

Not only was I wrong, but my "victim" actions actually fueled him. From what I understand, if you make yourself a victim to a pwBPD, they will pounce on it. The irony is they don't like 'weak' people, but they themselves are weak.

I stopped doing that. When I learned the tools, when I learned what's going on his head, and I took the necessary boundaries and steps, the abuse stopped. My dBPDh left a few times, came back in a few weeks. Cleaned himself up.

I hope I didn't cross any lines. I'm not trying to say you are laying the victim at all... I've been there and done that. Best of luck to you <3

Act like you are this or that in order to generate a desired response. If borderlines are by definition the edge of sanity and psychosis, what are we for basing our lives and health off a person we must ACT certain ways towards other than how we feel?

This is why I don't think these relationships are for everyone. I don't feel like I am acting in anyway, in fact I feel like I actually AM stronger, and I have learned to be happy with myself WITHOUT validation from him, or needing him to participate with me on every level.

The more he and I talk (that's another key too, whether or not they are self-aware, and willing to work on it), the better we get. We have been together for 5 years now. He dysregulates... .on average, about once every 4-5 months. In the beginning, it was every 4-5 days.

That's great that you are able to reach them that well. I'm sure it takes incredible patience. Gosh, I view my ex as such a bittersweet tragedy. I wish I could keep every aspect of who she is but somehow reset her brain, take away all that hurt buried deep down there and be with her. I love her very much, but tolerating some behaviors it just crosses a line at some point. If I could have one wish though, it wouldn't be for money, or for anything for myself. I wish I could take her pain away. I wish I could look into her eyes and see that tension fade. to see her smile, genuinely, take a deep breath and enjoy life. We non's have a gift. The gift is not being BPD. Their torment is hell. I know you can manage it, learn to maneuver it, learn to tolerate it. I guess what I'm really saying, is that I could reach her.
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« Reply #25 on: October 28, 2014, 03:16:52 PM »

Yes, it IS quite sad  I cannot even imagine being so unsure of yourself, you don't even trust your own thoughts  I think the degree of BPD varies in person to person, so everyone's experience is going to be different. Sadly, I think some of them might not be able to be reached.

It hasn't been easy. First few years were rough. Once I understood what was going on, he still fought me on it for awhile. He said I couldn't possibly understand him, no one does and no one could blah blah... .but now he says I'm the only one who does understand him, and he feels more mentally healthy and balanced than he ever has with anyone. He still tags his self-worth as 'us" rather than himself, but some things won't change.



I hope I don't cross a line here, Ceruleanblue, and if I have, please tell me.

Everyone here has great advice. I will tell you that in the beginning of my relationship with my dBPDh, I did the same that you have. I begged, pleaded... .really degraded myself because I didn't know what was going on. I loved him, I wanted him to stay, and I didn't understand the abuse. I assumed it was me... .I was doing something.

Not only was I wrong, but my "victim" actions actually fueled him. From what I understand, if you make yourself a victim to a pwBPD, they will pounce on it. The irony is they don't like 'weak' people, but they themselves are weak.

I stopped doing that. When I learned the tools, when I learned what's going on his head, and I took the necessary boundaries and steps, the abuse stopped. My dBPDh left a few times, came back in a few weeks. Cleaned himself up.

I hope I didn't cross any lines. I'm not trying to say you are laying the victim at all... I've been there and done that. Best of luck to you <3

Act like you are this or that in order to generate a desired response. If borderlines are by definition the edge of sanity and psychosis, what are we for basing our lives and health off a person we must ACT certain ways towards other than how we feel?

This is why I don't think these relationships are for everyone. I don't feel like I am acting in anyway, in fact I feel like I actually AM stronger, and I have learned to be happy with myself WITHOUT validation from him, or needing him to participate with me on every level.

The more he and I talk (that's another key too, whether or not they are self-aware, and willing to work on it), the better we get. We have been together for 5 years now. He dysregulates... .on average, about once every 4-5 months. In the beginning, it was every 4-5 days.

That's great that you are able to reach them that well. I'm sure it takes incredible patience. Gosh, I view my ex as such a bittersweet tragedy. I wish I could keep every aspect of who she is but somehow reset her brain, take away all that hurt buried deep down there and be with her. I love her very much, but tolerating some behaviors it just crosses a line at some point. If I could have one wish though, it wouldn't be for money, or for anything for myself. I wish I could take her pain away. I wish I could look into her eyes and see that tension fade. to see her smile, genuinely, take a deep breath and enjoy life. We non's have a gift. The gift is not being BPD. Their torment is hell. I know you can manage it, learn to maneuver it, learn to tolerate it. I guess what I'm really saying, is that I could reach her.

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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2014, 03:26:14 AM »

I agree that uBPDh and his ex, both had unresolved issues from their childhood. Their relationship was totally dysfunctional. I did buy into his "story", but what I didn't realize was how much he was still effected by it. I thought because he was in therapy, he was working through it all, and he seems so calm, slow to anger, and "normal". Back then, he only let me see what he wanted me to see.

Why I feel "duped", is I think he was purposely working to maintain that façade. He didn't want me to know he'd always had these issues(even prior to his ex). I don't take it personally, because I do think he'd be like this in any close relationship. Like the above poster stated, he is just striking out because he is hurting. I'm just working hard on not defending myself against it. Walking away works best, or redirecting sometimes works. I definitely don't want to do the back/forth that he and his ex did, and he and his grown kids do now. I'm not angry, and certainly not striking back at him, because I think he hid that side of himself, because he knows it will drive people away. Heck, I'm not even sure he did it consciously, so how can I be mad at him for it? I have a lot of compassion for him, but even more for myself. I won't sacrifice my happiness, just to appease him.

I'm not at all like his ex, and I'm trying very hard to focus more on myself, and give myself the tools to make myself happy, even in all this. I certainly deserve to be happy. I'm going to try my very best to never beg him to stay with me again. He certainly does feed off my fear of abandonment. I'm usually a pretty secure person, and have good self esteem, but after my former husband walked out after 18 years, I will admit to fear of abandonment. I just have to stop letting uBPDh manipulate me in that way. It gives him his "fix" of feeling powerful.

I'm doing my best to stay married, but stay out of the sick cycle. I realize he'll likely always dysregulate, but that does not mean I have to feel to blame, or try to fix it all for him. Only he can do that. I don't buy into his "story", other than certain facts. I realized long ago that his "story" wasn't very accurate, and that while his ex is messed up, uBPDh certainly didn't help the situation. They fed off each other's fears, dysfunction, anger, and upset. I refuse to do that. I have a great therapist who is helping me to reach a calmer place, more focused on ME. I no longer take blame that uBPDh tries to put on me(I never really did anyway). I can only control me, and I'm not going to let his moods, and rages ruin my life.

I've found some of the tools here to help some, but I still need to work more on that. I know I can't fix him, but hopefully I can learn ways to stop triggering him sometimes. I no longer look to him for validation, or so many of the things you'd expect from a healthy spouse. He sure needs it though, and for the most part, I'm okay with that.

I think I've made peace with the fact that we may not stay together. I want to, but I won't beg to stay with someone who is so difficult to live with. I had a happy childhood, and don't feel the need to do the sick dance that he seems to. He thrives on chaos, and seems to want to create it. I wonder if he'll eventually tire of me trying to avoid it? I've heard other partners of BPDs who think their partner viewed them as boring, because they weren't getting the drama fix.

I guess time will tell, and it's a lot of trial and error.
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