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Author Topic: he wants to visit kid during school  (Read 607 times)
momtara
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« on: October 24, 2014, 08:39:16 AM »

I have been setting stronger boundaries and not seeing exH except d uring pickup/dropoff every 2 weeks.  So he only sees our kids every 2 weeks.  He texted me to ask how he'd go about visiting our 4-year-old during school (pre k).  I said I'd find out.  Technically it would be during my day.  But it might also be a way for him to see him without bothering me.  He may be asking just to see what I'll say - he seems to hate leaving work during the day anyway and may not even bother.

Any thoughts on this?  I am going to say to the teacher, "Is there a good time if exH wants to drop off something for S4 during the day?"  or something like that.  I don't think they want parents routinely disrupting class. 

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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2014, 08:58:41 AM »

Just my two cents, but think about your 4yr old and how seeing dad might disrupt his day. I know when my son was four it was difficult for him sometimes if he happened to see me out of routine of the normal schedule. There were also times that I would stop in to daycare before work on dad's days to see him and say hi but it wasn't good for him so I stopped going until I knew he could handle it better. And you're right the teachers probably don't want the disruption either.

I've tried to never look at the schedule as my time vs. ex's time. I feel like it is the kid's time with each of us and try view it as such. So at times if exH wanted to say pick the kids up from school early while I was still at work I didn't look at it as my time and tell him no. I tried to see it as the kid's time while I was at work and what would they rather do, sit at latchkey or hang out with dad. I just made sure there were strict boundaries/rules and that if he doesn't respect them then all bets are off and the extra time would cease immediately.

Now with my husband's uBPDex we tried this type of appraoch but she didn't respect our rules. She often is off on Fridays so instead of having the kids go to latchkey we would let her get them and hang out on "our" Fridays. We made it clear that they needed to be home by x time and we asked that she not feed them. Well she didn't listen, once she dropped them off late (we had dinner plans out with friends) and she fed them and I'm pretty certain she told them to lie to us. when they got out of the car my DSS said something about dinner and not being hungry, I asked why, he started to say they had eaten something when DSD interupted and said remember what mom said. So that was the last time they hung out with mom on our friday. She will often bring it up and play the victim, we just say well if you had respected our requests this wouldn't have to be this way.
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2014, 10:24:06 AM »

Makes sense.

Yeah, it would be disruptive.  I don't think he'll do it too often, but I will handle it judiciously and just say that there may be volunteer opportunities coming up... .also, I'll ask the teacher what are good times for him to bring our child something if necessary.  That way she may suggest which times are better than others.

He followed up by asking about visiting D2 at day care. 

I don't necessarily want to say no to this - I'll just say I can give them the heads up if he wants.

Just wondering if there's some other problem with this or something I should think about in terms of why he is asking this?

I don't really have a problem w/him visiting her at day care except that she will be a little disrupted, but he probably won't even bother going.  My problem would be if he hangs around at pickup so I have to see him, but hopefully he won't go that late.
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2014, 01:12:35 PM »

I don't mean this to sound rude, and know that is hard to communicate over written words but does it matter why he's asking?

Sometimes, I know for me I made myself more worried about something by wondeirng/asking "why". He asks, you set a boundary or give an answer, trying to figure him out will only drive you nuts. When it is small stuff like this I would try not to wonder why. Always just repsond in a manner that would read well if a lawyer, judge, GAL or someone else were to read it in case he were setting something up to use against you legally

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momtara
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2014, 03:33:32 PM »

True.  Well, that IS a reason to ask - I hadn't even thought about protecting myself legally. 

I have to think about why he's asking because if he's trying to chip away at my parenting time somehow, I want to not set any precedents I'll regret later.
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2014, 04:30:27 PM »

I recall that my son's kindergarten teacher eventually refused to let my then-stbEx into the classroom, she even was told to wait down the hall for pickups.  That was due to her misbehaviors and clashes earlier in the school year.  Yet I was allowed to join the class for half-days doing little things for the class - as long as I promised not to tell her.

On the other hand, many state defaults have clauses that give both parents equal access to schools, etc.  How this works out regarding actual visits on your time or on his time can be a sticky issue if not clearly addressed by the order.

I too would suggest you not enable him.  If you had problems or boundary issues with him, eventually so would the teacher or school.  I would stick to the order and not enable him to chip away at it.  And if this preschool is really a part of daycare and not really part of the school system, then his access may not be addressed by state defaults.

However, in my order my time was my time and her time was her time.  In the temporary order she had majority time so she really didn't have much opportunity to intrude on my limited time.  In the final decree with equal time I made sure a parent's time could not be intruded upon by the other parent, that was vital in my case.  Sure enough, she tried to get her time back by insisting the time after school before I picked him up from daycare was her time too, claiming "I'm not working, I want to watch him until you get off work."  But I did not want daily exchanges with her and the order specifically listed daycare as the equivalent to school and so neither had to be offered to her since they were excluded from Right of First Refusal (ROFR) time periods.
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« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2014, 02:51:03 PM »

Setting aside the legal issues (if there are any), it sounds like your ex treats you like his own parent figure. My ex did too -- if you are codependent, you probably think it's normal, but it's not.

A grown man, if he wants to visit his child at school, can call the school to figure it out on his own. Up until the last hearing, my ex has continued to complain that I don't provide S13's report cards to him. I don't have to! He can call the school and do it himself.

You can just answer your ex, "Call the school to ask."

Unless there is some legal reason to be concerned.

It feels great to be out of this dynamic with N/BPDx. He's a big boy and can figure this stuff out all by himself. But he doesn't, because what he really wants is a mother to take care of him (and fight with), and that's not my job.

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« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2014, 06:54:48 PM »

Yeah, he does this a lot.  He may want validation, or maybe just to engage me, or both.

I think he was asking because he thought it may have to do with our visitation etc., not necessarily with school policy.

Anyway, I told him he could probably visit day care whenever, best not during a nap.  He wrote back and said he didn't need my permission, as it says in our divorce agreement.  Actually, there's nothing in the agreement.  It still bothers me that he imagines things, but unless it gets dangerous, I guess I just have to ignore it and document.
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« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2014, 07:05:26 PM »

Going on what lnl said, I wouldn't even reply.

He is a technically/legally a parent and doesn't need your permission. I view it as a way to engage. If you say no in some way then he will more than likely try to cross your boundary and it isn't in the child's best interest. If you say yes then you are encouraging more engagement. It looks to me like a no win situation.

If you ignore it he has two options. Show up and it is all on him. If you continue to ignore it there is no engagement and he will loose interest.  If he continues he will either do what is best for the child or be handled by the school as fd said.  The other thing is he sees no engagement from you from the start and doesn't even show up one time.

My ex used to do things like this. My T helped me see it as engagement. I was concerned about the consequences of not replying. I then realized if I were in court and it was brought up I could simply reply that my ex is their mother and has all the same rights as I do.

"It still bothers me that he imagines things" maybe he doesn't imagine things and it his is only way he can think of to stay engaged. He had a reply that wasn't true but managed to engage. It's been said here before that negative engagement is still engagement. I will add "imagined" (in the sense that he makes things up to get a response) engagement is still engagement. Ignore and document, document, document.

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« Reply #9 on: October 25, 2014, 08:12:14 PM »

Good advice, as always.

I'm not going to respond to it.
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« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2014, 08:42:57 PM »

I think he was asking because he thought it may have to do with our visitation etc., not necessarily with school policy.

Either way, he's a grown man. You two are divorced. He can read the custody agreement as well as you can.

Anyway, I told him he could probably visit day care whenever, best not during a nap.  He wrote back and said he didn't need my permission, as it says in our divorce agreement.  Actually, there's nothing in the agreement.  It still bothers me that he imagines things, but unless it gets dangerous, I guess I just have to ignore it and document.

There's fine line between imagining things and just spinning you however he wants, based on what he feels (feelings = facts).
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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014, 06:36:10 AM »

The next thing that may happen is an extinction burst. If he is used to getting engagement from a particular action and that doesn't happen he may try to increase his behavior to get a reaction.
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« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2014, 12:26:41 AM »

He wrote me again to ask me to check with the school and day care.  He claimed he has had to get my permission to visit the kids in the past.  Not true.  Oh well.  Must not respond... .must not respond... .

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« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2014, 09:11:50 AM »

He wrote me again to ask me to check with the school and day care.  He claimed he has had to get my permission to visit the kids in the past.  Not true.  Oh well.  Must not respond... .must not respond... .

Mine did this too. I stopped responding, or else responded very briefly. "Please contact the school directly."

He stopped asking, though it took a while. I ignored all messages that came Friday night because of the alcohol.

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« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 09:16:58 AM »

yeah, Friday nights were tough for you, because you couldn't contact your PC, I remember you mentioned... .that's rough.  Glad things are (hopefully) improving for you now... .

I am going to respond briefly and suggest he contact the teachers.
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« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2014, 10:35:22 AM »

He claims he has to get permission. That is obviously not true.

If he believes it then that is a cause for concern since he doesn't know what is going on. That is good evidence in court. The kids are safe since they are in school so no worries on your part.

If he doesn't believe it he is simply trying to engage.

In either case no reply is needed.

"must not respond... .must not respond... ." It gets easier the more you practice.
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« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2014, 11:58:33 AM »

"You need to contact the school for their visitation policy during class hours."
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« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2014, 03:04:07 PM »

Setting aside the legal issues (if there are any), it sounds like your ex treats you like his own parent figure. My ex did too -- if you are codependent, you probably think it's normal, but it's not.

A grown man, if he wants to visit his child at school, can call the school to figure it out on his own. Up until the last hearing, my ex has continued to complain that I don't provide S13's report cards to him. I don't have to! He can call the school and do it himself.

You can just answer your ex, "Call the school to ask."

Unless there is some legal reason to be concerned.

It feels great to be out of this dynamic with N/BPDx. He's a big boy and can figure this stuff out all by himself. But he doesn't, because what he really wants is a mother to take care of him (and fight with), and that's not my job.

Amen, Amen, Amen!

I was thinking these exact thoughts reading everyone's posts. I've dealt with the same issue with my uBPDxw. I told her she can do what I do if she wants to be involved with her sons lives. I go online to see my sons activities in school. It's very easy, they even have apps for them. You can check their grades, correspond with teachers via e-mail, lookup school activities on the calendar, DC, etc. She chooses to NOT be involved because that would take some EFFORT on her part. All her efforts are on idealizing her new fix.

My Boundary #1: I will no longer be your father or spend any time on parenting you on being a parent!

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« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2014, 10:07:04 PM »

Well, I encouraged him to ask the teachers.  He seems to have dropped this.  Yay.
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« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2014, 06:06:55 AM »

Unless the teachers know the family situation well and you trust the judgment of the teachers, be cautious about leaving it up to them.  They may default to cooperation and then when incidents arise they'll wonder whether you gave them enough of a heads up.

Having a parent visit during school can be distracting to the children, especially if the parent tries to get the attention.  I recall I was welcomed in kindergarten class for half a day but it was just once a month or two.  And I stayed in the background as helper, I certainly wasn't to have the spotlight or distract my son.

You wouldn't want this to distract him from gainful employment.  I recall my ex saying, "I love My Son, I have a flexible schedule, I can just work less."  Sure, with me paying child support!
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2014, 08:56:36 AM »

Setting aside the legal issues (if there are any), it sounds like your ex treats you like his own parent figure. My ex did too -- if you are codependent, you probably think it's normal, but it's not.

A grown man, if he wants to visit his child at school, can call the school to figure it out on his own. Up until the last hearing, my ex has continued to complain that I don't provide S13's report cards to him. I don't have to! He can call the school and do it himself.

You can just answer your ex, "Call the school to ask."

Unless there is some legal reason to be concerned.

It feels great to be out of this dynamic with N/BPDx. He's a big boy and can figure this stuff out all by himself. But he doesn't, because what he really wants is a mother to take care of him (and fight with), and that's not my job.

I agree with this and didn't even think of it. I dealt with this from my ex all the time, we were finished but he wanted me to coordinate and deal with things like I was still his wife. Nope not my job any longer!


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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2014, 10:55:15 AM »

Unless the teachers know the family situation well and you trust the judgment of the teachers, be cautious about leaving it up to them.  They may default to cooperation and then when incidents arise they'll wonder whether you gave them enough of a heads up.

I think that's a separate issue. It's important to tell a divorced BPD spouse, "Ask the school directly." And keep that boundary in place.

That doesn't mean you can't talk to the school and give them a heads up. "There is nothing that prevents the kids' dad from visiting, but I do not want to encourage it for reasons xyz."

Two different issues, imo.
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2014, 11:15:44 PM »

"That doesn't mean you can't talk to the school and give them a heads up. "There is nothing that prevents the kids' dad from visiting, but I do not want to encourage it for reasons xyz."

Well put.

I think the teachers already see some of his weirdness.  I'm not worried.  He's probably going to drop the whole thing anyway.
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2014, 07:49:45 AM »

My xBPDw became homeroom mom for our youngest last year. The extra encounters helped the teacher figure her out much faster. I go to a separate parent/teacher meeting and from part of the conversation the teacher already figured it out. I didn't have to say anything but my conversation was not one of "co parenting" with mom but rather "parallel parenting". Towards the end of the year ex became too busy to be homeroom mom. She wasn't getting whatever she was looking for and lost interest. She is homeroom mom again this year so I figure this teacher will figure it out soon enough. When things don't go the way ex thinks/feels they should she is quick to blame S11. I am in contact with the teacher when needed and have already let her know that the majority of homework is done when S11 is with me. I sign and date everything. Things that are late are because he doesn't do it at his mom's. I am slowly working on that with him but it is difficult to convince an 11 year old he should be doing his work on time. My goal is to accomplish it by middle school just like I did with his older brother.
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2014, 12:43:18 PM »

She wasn't getting whatever she was looking for and lost interest.

I think this is what is so important for us to remember. momtara, your ex wants to engage with you -- he will go through a list of things hoping that something will trip your trigger. If you engage, no matter what reason, that is hitting paydirt.

What is likely happening is that you are reacting, but not immediately -- that's the first step. You then come here and try to figure out how best to respond. That's the second step. Then you feed him a moderated reply. That's the third step.

If you keep winding down your reaction so it is a neutral boundary with no reaction, and don't let him suck you in to being the parent figure, he won't find what he is looking for and will lose interest.

Do this over and over and eventually it will become second nature. You'll be on these boards helping someone else work through the boundary issues. 

He will always test your boundaries. It's part of the disorder. But if you don't reward him with high emotion or play into the engagement, he will lose interest.
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2014, 05:09:29 PM »

Our two boys were the only thing that still makes us communicate with each other and my ex understands that very well. If we didn't have kids or they were over 18 I would have absolutely, positively, without any doubt whatsoever, no reason to have any further communication with her.

In the beginning, back in 2007 and 2008, she would do things to tick me off about the boys. I reacted and it kept happening. My T helped me see how I was engaging and I needed to stop in order to make things better for our boys and myself. I tried it and at first it did not feel right. I resisted going back to the old way. Eventually, probably months, it started to change for the better. It is 7 years now and I no longer react. Things are much better for our boys and myself.

Ex's newest tactic is to spend excessively for our boys. She just purchased a computer for our S16. The total came out to $2,300. She actually tried to get me to pay for part of it. Her email claimed that she was talking to S16 for two years about it. I replied that since I was not part of the decision process I would respect her decision to keep me out of it. I would never have been able to "communicate" that way in the past because I wanted to "fix" what I saw as a problem. I have talked to S16 about it and he knows how I feel and think about spending so much for a computer. The facts: he already has a good computer at his moms, he will be going to college in two years, and the computer he got today will be much less in two years when he could really use a computer with all the bells and whistles.

She also had the courts require co parent counseling recently. Another form of engagement. We went through a custody eval 6 months ago. I remained calm and focused the entire time. Ex actually threatened the evaluator during one meeting. I believ her thoughts about the counselor will backfire on her. I have several things to discuss that will not be favorable to ex and I am certain she will go balistic in the meetings. They are all issues that concern the children and are things that need to be resolved. My atty said they were not serious enough for a judge to rule on without more evidence so this forum will take care of these things.

I've learned that I can't protect my kids from all dangers and in all honesty I shouldn't be doing that either. However, I can listen, validate, and help guide them. That is my strength and that is ex's weakness. Staying focused on the kids and their needs is my ultimate positive force for our kids.
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« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2014, 05:05:23 PM »

... .and now he asks (again), whether I'm "still insisting" he has at least one parent around with him when he takes the kids this weekend.

He's been off supervised visitation for a month.  Each time, he asks me this.

Part of me wants to say I think it's a good idea and end it there.

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« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2014, 07:10:14 PM »

Part of me wants to say I think it's a good idea and end it there.

That sounds like a good response. "I think it is a good idea for your mom or dad to be there."

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« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2014, 08:19:18 PM »

I think lnl's response is good. In fact, whenever he brings it up you can simply repeat the same exact thing. Having the same response minimizes engagement. You state your position and nothing more. Since it is not in the order there really is nothing you can do at this time unless he does something that warrants a different action on your part. If he is just trying to engage you then nothing else will probably occur. I suspect he will stop asking when he sees no reaction from you. It's just like Pavlov's dogs.
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« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2014, 09:36:47 PM »

LandL and David, your stories above and advice are soo helpful.  Thank you.  Your support has been invaluable.

I can't imagine a time when he fully stops engaging, and I suppose I understand that, but minimizing it is helpful.  I just spend too much time trying to figure out how to respond - time I should spend on the kids.  But it does get easier the more I do it right.
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