BPD and the Church (Christian Discussion)

[amazingcharis]

Regardless of the cause of my loved one's BPD and his ability or inability to do anything about it, the result of his mental illness and his denial of his condition is often unrelenting emotional abuse directed at me.  

Although physical abuse (hitting/pushing, etc.) is now a thing of the past once I threatened to leave,  the emotional abuse (falsely accusing and blaming; distorting, minimizing, negating, revising history; withholding affection and emotional support; contempt; showing no empathy; and crazy making in other various forms) is a daily occurrence and is extremely wearying.  Yes, I can and do all kinds of things to take care of myself, but the constant assault takes a tremendous emotional and physical toll on me regardless of how many times I take a break, leave the room, leave the house, spend time with friends, pursue my hobbies, etc.  

My husband and I have spent 5 of our 9+ years of marriage in counseling and various types of therapy, some exceptionally good.  I've grown and know how to take care of myself much better and how not to make things worse, but my BPDh remains in total denial that he has any issues that need to be dealt with.  So the emotional abuse continues.

I've read all the lessons; read many books about BPD; listened to seminars and lectures about BPD, validation, taking care of myself, setting boundaries, and various methods to use (SET, LEAD, etc.).  I've tried to put into practice what I've learned about him and about me.  :)oes it reduce the hurt and pain?  Yes, but not nearly enough.    There are some real success stories out there, but there only seem to be a few like Steph's and Peacebabys'.  My BPDh has to want help before he can benefit from help; he needs to want to stop living like he is before there will be any healing and change in him.  Without that, the emotional abuse will continue.  From time to time clinging to the slightest hope keeps me going, and then it dissipates.

My husband and I are both Christians.  He's a teacher in the church, and we're missionaries in a foreign country.  He's a high functioning pwBPD so most people, other than close friends in whom I've confided and our various counselors/therapists over the years, know what's going on behind closed doors.   My husband has always expressed the highest respect for church authorities.  The church doesn't know what's going on in our relationship.  For those of you of a Christian persuasion, what results have you had with taking the issue of emotional abuse directed at you from your pwBPD before church authorities?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Good question... .and I am a fan of a blended approach.  Let the church do the church's work... .and let the mental health provider's do their work.

I note from your post that you have figured out what works... .threatening to leave.  Do I recommend this for all situations... .no.

But... .I would certainly identify a behavior... and try to focus on reducing it.

Falsely accusing... .I would go straight to Bible on this one (I'm conservative Christian).  Deny it... .bring in others... deny it... .take it before the church.  Have I personally done this... .no... .didn't go before church... .but pastors got involved and realized there was no substance to accusations. 

I kinda wish I had pushed harder.  This was pre BPD knowledge and was asked to focus on loving her... .I ended up protecting her and feeding the illness... .rather than shining the light on it.

No... I don't say expose it... .I say shine the light... .if they display ridiculous behavior... .that's on them.  Turning off the light of the church is not a good idea.

Does he have a diagnosis?  Has he gotten psych testing?

Some churches are against that... ignore that thought process... .let the mental health people do their thing.

I'll be praying for you... .and look forward to more posts.

[formflier]

 

Just to follow up... .

Do I wish I had pushed it and taken it before the church... .yes.

Accusations of affairs and all kinds of things like that.  Claims of proof.

I have no idea how that would have turned out... .but I wish I had done it... .may have nipped it in the bud some.

In my case I had hints of BPD traits for 15 years.  Big natural disaster... .lots of family upheaval... .and that kicked things into overdrive.

Looking back I did exactly the wrong thing... .I invalidated and fed the disorder. 

Things are much better now... .but some scars are there because I didn't know better... .

This has also deepened my faith and commitment to marriage

[amazingcharis]

Thanks for your input formflier, and many thanks for your prayers.

Before I knew about BPD, I definitely invalidated my husband as I was always defending myself against all the crazy accusations and bizarre behavior.

Even after I knew about BPD, I protected my husband, which I'm sure has fed his illness.  I didn't want to see him fail or have to give up his life's work, which was a real possibility on the foreign mission field.  At one point our mission sent us home for marriage counseling; and although my husband continued to be in total denial, I had gained so much from counseling, learned so much about BPD, learned so much about validation and had connected with BPD Family that I felt I could handle our situation and pushed the administration to let us return to the field and let my husband continue with his work.  Still protecting him.  That was the biggest mistake I made.  The physical abuse and rages ended when I threatened to leave, but all that negative energy found other channels of expression.

My husband has gotten psych testing, and over the years four therapists who saw both of us told me their diagnosis of him was BPD, but none of them wanted to officially put that label on him.  Although they were all aware of DBT, none of them had experience with it and used mostly CBT and EFT along with certain aspects of DBT.  They didn't get anywhere with him and each in turn (we were about a year or so with each one) eventually told him they felt that they had done all they could and that they needed to end their involvement with him in therapy.  Each one  talked to him about his difficulty with "emotion regulation" using various terms and calling it various things as they saw it firsthand in his sessions with them. And each one was up front with him about the abuse, calling it exactly what it was and letting him know how destructive it was to our marriage.  My husband's very vehement response about that to me and to them was that none of the therapists had come to those conclusions on their own or as a result of their interactions with him and observations of him, but instead I had somehow convinced the therapists of these things.

This whole experience has also deepened my faith; but although I've felt committed to this marriage and my heart's desire is to see my husband emotionally healed, I can't say that my commitment to marriage has grown as a result.  I constantly fight resentment and it's a constant struggle to not tire of doing good in the midst of all this craziness. 

You're input has been valuable, formflier, and you've given me things to think about.

[formflier]

 

So... .what is going to be your plan?

How long have you known about BPD and been trying to properly respond to it and deal with it?

I had many years of counseling as well... .but it was only in past 9 months that I found out about BPD traits (after she stormed out of a counseling... )... I stayed... .counselor explained what she was seeing... .then the world made sense to me.

So... .what I'm trying to figure out is where you are in the journey with dealing with BPD traits... .

Not saying I've figured it all out... .but now that I look back... I'm amazed I hung in there as long as I did... .because i was doing the wrong things... .I played a role in making it worse.

What i'm hoping to do is keep "nudging" you forward... .to a better r/s.  TLCs... tiny little changes... are what you want to focus on . 

Sure... you may have big breakthroughs here and there... .but trying for those... .pinning your hope on those... .is not a good plan.  Slow and steady improvement wins!

[Applesmom4]

Hi amazingcharis,

I can relate somewhat to your story.  My concern mirrors yours in some ways, but I just don't see how to say 'my husband is a Christian.'  I mean there is so much sin tied into BPD that it just doesn't fit.  We all sin, sure, but to continue the horrible patterns that your husband and my husband are in... .I just don't know.  That's my issue right now... .how can I line up with God's plan for a wife, when it just feeds what my husband does.  It seems to all make sense spiritually to me, but to live it is just so hard and it hurts.

Does it bother you to see your husband talking about God to others, and yet knowing what he's like?  It does me, because of the hypocrisy.  He will judge someone to hell in 2 minutes, yet turn around and do something way worse.  Honestly where it hurts the most is that he is setting this example to our 4 young children. I can't stop it.  I am at a loss. I agree with taking this to the church.  I tried that recently, but the pastor promised to come by many times and just let me down by never showing up.  Now we are going to a new church, but I don't know anyone there yet well enough to talk to. I"m hoping it will work out, but my husband judges the churches fairly quickly and we leave.  He is even contemplating Jewish ways or Jehovahs Witness.

[amazingcharis]

Hi formflier,

What's my plan?  For the time being, I'm committed to hanging in there. I think after six years in counseling and therapy we've run the gamut in that regard for the time being.  However, I'd jump right back into it if it was at my husband's initiative because he really felt the need for help and it was focused on BPD issues, but I can't see him ever getting to that point.  I realized early on that I could only change myself so that's been my main focus over these years. Is our relationship better than it was and improving?  Only superficially and to the extent that I do my part in not making things worse.  Real and lasting success stories are very few and far between, so I'm not counting on that. 

My husband and I have been married for almost ten years (a second marriage for both of us) and although BPD manifested itself the first week of our marriage, it took two years before I learned what it was and began the process of discovery.  Initially I read everything I could find on the subject and started to learn how to take care of myself, how to validate, how to set boundaries, and how to stop making things worse.  Four years into our marriage I found BPD Family and for the first time felt that I wasn't alone in all of this craziness. I read all the resources they offered and initially spent a lot of time on the site.  I've been on and off the "Staying" board for five years.

I'm not pinning my hopes on big breakthroughs and in the past eight years there have only been several small ones.  Stopping the rages was a big thing for him and brought relief to me, but it wasn't because he had a change of heart and thought process, which would have meant real change.  Rather it was because of his fear that I would leave him. And all his anger has just been diverted into other forms of abuse.  Some people in relationships with pwBPD have periods of time, sometimes lasting months, with relative calm in their relationships.  That's something I've never experienced in our relationship, so I don't have "good times" to look back on or forward to.

So I hang in there from a commitment to a person.  I'd love to experience who that person really is when freed from the issues of BPD, but I may never have that opportunity on this side of heaven.

[formflier]

And all his anger has just been diverted into other forms of abuse. 

Can you elaborate some?

[ydrys017]

A very good thread.  I too am a conservative christian, and struggled mightily to understand how my uBPDw could be so critical of people / church / doctrine.  I have never dared go to the church to discuss, yet ironically - she has suggested that we sit down with the Pastor and let him know about all of my problems... .  I just keep reciting Joshua 1:9, the verse she had inscribed inside our wedding bands (that she doesn't wear anymore... .).  Also, Jeremiah 29:11!

[formflier]

A very good thread.  I too am a conservative christian, and struggled mightily to understand how my uBPDw could be so critical of people / church / doctrine.  I have never dared go to the church to discuss, yet ironically - she has suggested that we sit down with the Pastor and let him know about all of my problems... .  I just keep reciting Joshua 1:9, the verse she had inscribed inside our wedding bands (that she doesn't wear anymore... .).  Also, Jeremiah 29:11!

Are you  going to go sit with pastor?  I recommend it... but only with careful thought and prep... .we all have problems... .if it's all going to be about you... .make that clear at start that it won't work.

[amazingcharis]

And all his anger has just been diverted into other forms of abuse. 

Can you elaborate some?

Once the rages stopped, the actual physical abuse as well as threatening physical actions (ex. backing me into corners with clenched fists waving, etc.) stopped.   He channeled that highly explosive stuff into increased verbal abuse done less explosively and emotional abuse increased (silent treatment, ignoring me as if I'm not even there, not responding to simple non-confrontational questions, projecting his behaviors on to me, intimidation, and the many other forms of BPD "crazy making"

[formflier]

   He channeled that highly explosive stuff into increased verbal abuse done less explosively and emotional abuse increased (silent treatment, ignoring me as if I'm not even there, not responding to simple non-confrontational questions, projecting his behaviors on to me, intimidation, and the many other forms of BPD "crazy making"

How do you respond to the verbal abuse now?  Can you give some examples? 

[amazingcharis]

Hi applesmom4, thanks for your post.  I've also struggled with wondering whether or not my husband is really a Christian, but I try not to let my thoughts go there because I can never know the depths of his heart.  Yes, the hypocrisy really bothers me.  I agree that all of us, Christians or otherwise, can and do sin grievously but we would hope to see signs of sorrow and regret and that's something I never see in my husband.  I tend to want to blame BPD for all of my husband's bad behavior, and I'm not sure that's not really the case.  However, I also don't know how to distinguish what behavior is the result of BPD and what isn't.

None of that negates the need to take care of and protect ourselves and our children.  What aspects of lining up with God's plan for a wife do you feel are feeding what your husband does?

There aren't too many churches that I know of that even want to be involved in church discipline and I wouldn't think many, if any, church leaders are well versed in PDs. In our church setting, I feel that I'm putting on a false front, not being open about what's going on in our home, and therefore not being able to seek much needed prayer and help.  Although one part of me wants to be open and honest with the church with regard to what's going on, another part of me wonders if they will simply want us to do what repeatedly hasn't worked in the past--get more counseling.  I'm still really waffling back and forth about this.

I don't know the plans God has for me or my husband, but I really do believe they are ultimately for our good and his glory and I think that's what keeps me hanging in there. 

[amazingcharis]

And all his anger has just been diverted into other forms of abuse. 

Can you elaborate some?

[/quote]
Mainly emotional and verbal abuse such as the silent treatment, acting like I'm not there (even when I'm right beside him or in the same room with him), negating, blaming, name calling, false accusations, being rude and disrespectful, not answering even simple non-confrontational questions, projecting his very negative feelings and actions onto me, various ways of trying to intimidate and control, and the list goes on and on.

I have boundaries that he knows about, mainly three--that I will remove myself when I feel that I am being emotionally or verbally hurt by his words/actions, I will protect my physical heath and well being (I need to get a good night's rest, I'll take care of myself when I'm sick, I won't ride in a car with him if he's driving recklessly, etc.), and I'll call 911 if he rages out of control and I feel physically threatened or there is physical violence),  I have safe havens to go if necessary, and I have trusted friends I can confide in who are very supportive.  Over time (and it took years) my husbands'  reactions to my boundaries have calmed down.  When I told him I would leave and call 911 the next time he raged out of control and/or there was physical violence, he stopped those things immediately.  That was 8 years ago, and  I've never had to act on that boundary.  He makes it obvious that he doesn't like boundaries and says they are "harmful to our relationship and unbiblical."  It took some time and things got worse before they got better, but now he rarely  tries to stop me or interfere with my leaving his presence when I feel the need.  I always try to remain as calm as possible (obviously I don't always do this well) and tell him what I'm doing [ex.  I care about you.  I see that you're upset/angry.  I would be upset/angry too if (whatever).  I feel that we are having difficulty talking to each other now, but I would like to talk to you about this later when our emotions calm down.  Right now I need to (spend some time alone in the bedroom, go for a walk, take a drive).  I plan to be back in (a few minutes/an hour/a few hours).]   Unfortunately he's never willing to discuss things later.  I'm not exaggerating--he absolutely refuses to discuss anything about our personal life in the moment or later, so communication between us is very superficial unless it involves our work, and he's usually willing to talk about that. Also, validation of his feeling is rejected by him unless it also includes agreeing with him.  We've had some very experienced and highly credentialed therapists whose validation of his feelings has been totally rejected by him.  They've all challenged him on the "having to agree with him" but  to no avail. 

[formflier]

"harmful to our relationship and unbiblical." 

This should be where you have him.  Go with him... .sit in pastors office... and let him explain this to a pastor.

He is the leader... .and should be able to do this... .not problem.  You and I both know he can't do it... and that opens the path for the church to deal with him... .and for him to deal with the church.  Actually for him to deal with God.

Note:  I never got to this point in my r/s and church discipline and counseling... .but I wish I had.  I never knew about BPD when we were seeking help from the church... .

If he dysregulates... .then the pastor can help him with his sinful anger.  Once it becomes obvious that this is more than sinful anger... .and it will become obvious... .then you have the church in your corner to keep him focused on evaluations and therapy.

This would be Biblical because we are supposed to take care of God's house.  God dwells within us... .

I see this as a series of boundaries which keep closing in on him... .

Does this approach make sense?  Do you think you have pastors than can help you with such a thing?  I would say it another way... .are there pastors that can speak truth to his life... .when he speaks untruth to them?

[formflier]

 

Also... .be aware that some in the Christian community will equate his behavior only with sin.  Or will say mental illness is sin... or is a result of sin.

I don't believe that... .but please be aware... .

What you should hope to find is a pastor/church that is not afraid to speak truth and confront untruth from your husband... .but when it is obvious that there is a disorder... .they will not let him off the hook.  Sure... .it's not sin... but it needs to be dealt with.

[ydrys017]

Also... .be aware that some in the Christian community will equate his behavior only with sin.  Or will say mental illness is sin... or is a result of sin.

I don't believe that... .but please be aware... .

What you should hope to find is a pastor/church that is not afraid to speak truth and confront untruth from your husband... .but when it is obvious that there is a disorder... .they will not let him off the hook.  Sure... .it's not sin... but it needs to be dealt with.

Do you think that the typical Pastor is equipped to understand a PD and correlate it to Biblical teachings?  I refuse to take our r/s issues to our Pastor because I believe he will simply state that these issues are beyond his expertise, and refer us to a T.  Since we have 2 very good T's, I don't know that I'd substitute either, or add a 3rd person to the mix.  While we both teach Sunday School (I teach an adult class, she teaches K-1st), and our kids are very involved, I could see the logic for a Pastor visit if our r/s issues were causing disruption in the Church.  As of now, it isn't - however, she gets very angry that people at Church don't see me as the monster that she claims I am, and expects me to go and inform them all... . I refuse, I don't go / serve at Church to get feedback from others... .or even the Pastor... .perhaps I'm wrong, or I don't think he will enlighten me to anything new... . 

[formflier]

 

I think you should go to pastor... .but let him stay in his lane.

Let the pastor deal with Biblical issues.  Sinful behavior... .etc etc.

DO NOT only go to a pastor... .get the right people... and let them help with the issues they can deal with.

Now... .if a pastor is confronting Biblical untruth... .and the pwBPD dysregulates... .now you have another witness... and nother person of authority that is pushing for proper treatment and healing. 

Also another person that can respond in love,... .pray for the person with BPD traits... .Pastors can provide a lot of SE... .in SET.

Does this fix it all... .no... .but if you have a Christian that is battling any illness... .mental or otherwise... it seems odd to leave a pastor out of it.

Thoughts?

[Applesmom4]

The issues that I believe that are feeding what my husband does is simply related to just being a submissive wife.  The more I submit to him, as the Lord would want, then he is so degrading towards me.  He says things like, 'You are the woman, you are down here!' Or he will pinch his first finger and thumb together saying that I am THAT big.  He tells me to keep stepping down, even though I am completely submitted.  He mis-perceives that he is being controlled, and that's with other people too.  He would never talk to a pastor or a counselor because no one is smart enough or good enough.  He is big into black/white with people.  We have no friends, no continuous church, no outside contact at all because he just seems to think everyone is so super bad.  How does line up with him looking at pornography?  When I ask him that, he says that he KNOWS his faults, but no one else knows there... .which means he repents.  Geez.  It's so hard, so hard... .

I am committed to stay, but honestly, it's only because we have four kids.  He left his first wife and two kids... .he may just be the one to leave me, who knows.

[ydrys017]

I am so very sorry for how the Biblical concept of submission is being utilized against you.  I have read Eph 5 so many times in order to determine exactly what was intended by Paul.  FWIW, here is one guy's point of view.

- The wording used (paraphrased) that the husband is the head... . relates to a simple anatomy analogy, it does not mean that a wife is subservient but rather that the body works together.  A hand does not do one thing whereas the head does another.  So, it relates to a husband / wife partnership, difficult with a pwBPD.

- The wording 'submit to... .' relates to an unreachable decision, ie; when the path forward is not clear but a decision must be made.  It is the ultimately the husband who is responsible for seeking Spiritual direction, spousal input, et al and then the decision.  In that scenario (should be seldom), the wife would accept the decision and both would support each other.  Again, it relates to a husband / wife partnership, and a method for moving through difficult life choices to prevent stagnation - very difficult to navigate with a pwBPD.

Formflier,  thanks for the response, I have to mull it over a bit.  I'm a very private person, and sitting down with a 3rd 'stranger' and divulging TMI is a reach for me - especially when I believe I'm the one who will pay for a Pastor's attempt at addressing sin... . so complicated.

[formflier]

  'You are the woman, you are down here!' 

This would be perfect for a pastor to handle... .even one with no knowledge of BPD... .could knock this one out of the park.

Now... .if the pastor has to deal with a dysregulation... .fine... .

And most likely he will dysregulate... .

In a Christian life our primary goal is to serve Christ... .a pastor is a great resource to learn about this ... .to grow in Christ.  If doing that leaves someone "on the outside... ."  all dysregulated and mad... .then the attention needs to be changed to help them learn to self sooth... .to control emotions better.

What we DON'T want to do is to ignore sinful behavior... .or enable sinful behavior... .to try and "keep the peace" with someone that has BPD traits... .or any other traits for that matter.

Now... .please... .don't read any of the above a statement mean JUDGE another actions... .or to PUNISH another for sinful behavior.  As Christians we should share the grace that we have been given.  Normally we need pastoral help to do that.  When in a r/s with someone that displays BPD traits... .I believe we need guidance in this areas even more.

Back to the original quote above... .in case anyone is wondering.  A Christian man is to serve his wife in a Christlike manner.  That is the goal... .

I don't think Jesus ever said similar things to the quote above in the Bible.  If anyone can find them... .please reference the chapter and verse.

When people with BPD start misquoting scripture... .I recommend not disagreeing... .just ask for the reference... .sit back and let them explain it and show it.

The good thing about using a pastor is it is not "you" doing the disagreeing or teaching... .we are leaving that to the experts.

I know much easier said than done... .also... make sure you are open in this process to learning and changing as well.

[Applesmom4]

Thanks for your words ydrys017.  I appreciate that thought and can surely see it that way.  I also believe that's why husband's are not to be harsh with their wives as well.

But formflier... you hit the issue on the head. I am still trying to be the peacemaker!  I have tried to get him to talk to the pastor, but he seems to despise everyone like that.  They are not worthy to talk to him.  Plus, if I try to talk to the pastor behind his back, he will go super crazy mad on me.  That's the thing is that I am so isolated by him that I can barely breathe without being condemned.

The church usually ends up just forgetting our whole family because they do not realize where the problem stems from.  He will commit us to things and then change his mind and we can't go.  He will NEVER allow me to take the kids to church without him, so if he doesn't go, we don't go.  So then the church just assumes it's us as a family backing out so they let us go.  Part of being a Christian is to have a teachable spirit, and my husband will not be taught, period.

Any thoughts on how to break out of this isolation issue?  Again, I try to keep the peace, but it is severely becoming my detriment.  Something has to change otherwise I will be the crazy one.  I'm seriously in the FOG right now and have to get out.

[formflier]

My input is to not go behind his back.  Just go.  Let him know what time you will be at pastors office... .and invite him to come.

If that is not convenient... .I bet the pastor would drop by your house.

Go to church... .take your kids to church... .if he stays... he stays... .if he goes... .he goes.

Will he pitch a fit... .yes... .

Once he realizes you are not backing down... .the fit may get bigger... .most likely will. 

But... .are you willing to have your religious training/teaching/ handed over to someone that refuses to talk to a pastor... .someone that denies you going to church.

Even if you are married to that person... .I challenge you to show me the Biblical reference that says obey him... and stay out of church... .to not talk to your pastor.

Standing up for yourself and kids will be hard... .it will feel weird for you.

I encourage you to pray about this... .encourage your husband to pray about this as well... .with you and the rest of the family.

Then... .make sure you are listening for an answer to your prayers.

Act on that answer... .

[KateCat]

I hope no one minds a non-Christian butting in briefly on this discussion. . . . I want to say that this is some of the most outstanding, challenging advice I have seen on this forum.

And, just reading this can be frightening, can't it, Applesmom4?   

[formflier]

I hope no one minds a non-Christian butting in briefly on this discussion. . . . I want to say that this is some of the most outstanding, challenging advice I have seen on this forum.

And, just reading this can be frightening, can't it, Applesmom4?   

Thanks Kate,

Can you provide some more insight... .to compare this to an issue a non-christian might face... .or consider HUGE.

For me... .and I think for most Christians... .this is ultimately about Salvation... .(another way of saying what happens after you die).  That's kinda a big deal.

So... .what are similar big deals that non-Christians deal with in r/s with pwBPD.

Here is the thing... .if a pwBPD is a professed Christian... .then I think that is a huge good thing... because by professing Christianity... .you are accepting authority of God and his word over your life... that controls your actions and choices.

So... don't hide a Christian that displays BPD traits from that authority and healing. 

God heals in many different ways.  I see the role of a Christian "non" as making sure they don't enable "running from God"... .There should be some sort of boundary used... .how that boundary is applied by be different in each r/s

But... .a spouse that claims to know more that a Pastor... .knows better than God... .the Bible... etc etc... and uses that to abuse and control the other spouse... .that's bad... .that's SIN.  We are not the judge of that... .but should not help a pwBPD hide from that judgement (consequence)

That got a little longer than I wanted... .but... .

Thoughts?

[KateCat]

The Lessons on this website give clear, concise advice for a number of difficult situations: what to do in the case of physical violence in the family; suicide threats; a spouse who drives drunk with the kids in the car. Big Issues anyone might face, I think.

From my outsider's view, some members of traditional religious communities who post here seem to need more. They can seem stuck in ways unique to their spiritual convictions, almost as though their beliefs themselves form an impediment to healthy families.

But that can't be right, can it? It can't be right that the abused men who write here, describing themselves as being in "biblical marriage," are enduring a suffering that their communities would endorse. (And, don't worry, I don't think that Jesus ever described wives or women as being "way down here" or anything.) In no way do I think this is "God's fault," or God's plan.

So, what seems so bracing and clear to me about what you have written above, is that it seems to call on beleaguered spouses to use their beliefs as a beacon. To have the courage to bring tough family issues to light within the religious community.

This would take a lot of courage, wouldn't it? And an almost unimaginable amount of courage for those members whose livelihood depends on their functions in the church? What of the wife in mission out-of-country with an abusive husband? What of the pastor whose borderline wife is making his leadership a daily struggle?

Am I right in thinking you are advising believers to feel the fear and do it anyway?

[formflier]

Am I right in thinking you are advising believers to feel the fear and do it anyway?

Yes... .that is a good way of putting it.  I'm not saying don't think things through... .but after you have heard a pwBPD take an unbiblical stance... .over and over... .they believe it... and are acting on it.

Dealing with an unbiblical stance on things without using a professional that works in that field... .is not wise.

Just like having a pastor deal with BPD traits when they are not ready for them... .is not a good plan either.  Maybe a bit of rephrase... .having ONLY a pastor deal with the traits is not a good plan.

A deeply religious person that is exhibiting BPD traits can be a bit of a bear to deal with.  What you want to do is pierce the "God says its ok... .or I'm doing God's work by xyz (keeping a woman down here... or whatever).

This is an issue for anyone... .people do all kinds of things "in God's name... " but add in pwBPD... .feelings equals facts... .impulsiveness... .etc etc... .and this can be a very bad combination.

Then... .especially for men (read my experience)... .we are supposed to live for our wives... ."die to self"... .and "serve" our wives and Christ served the Church.  This is a great model if both people are healthy and non-abusive... .but... .when one person is serving... and the other is abusive... .and not responding to the service in a Biblical way... .that is bad.

It feeds "neediness"...

Few churches do Biblical discipline right anymore.  Confront the individual... .if that doesn't work... .taken other people with and confront... .if that doesn't work... .take it "in front" of the church.

The practical goal is to get several... .loving... .wise people involved in helping solve these problems... .the goal is "restoration"... .not punishment.  But... .if a person is truly not going to repent... .that is their choice... ."the Church"... .should not enable their sinful behavior.

[Applesmom4]

I'm enjoying this conversation so far.  So much good is being said here.  Definitely agree with feeding the neediness.  My husband is extremely needy, always has been.  But when you have four children and homeschool them, you have to realize at some point that he is a grown man and can actually do some things for himself right?

I really want to just go to church without him. I mean, I'd rather him go along, but staying home for arguments is just absurd. His big thing is that I'm sitting under the teaching of another man, and he literally hates that.  But here's the thing... .does he teach me? NO, so whose fault is that? 

The other issue is having outside support.  I have to keep it all secret, and then he still does everything he can to read emails and such.  He is so super jealous over a friend that he usually sabotages the relationship.  I think this is one reason we have moved so much. He has made me leave all of my close friends behind, and that is why he is contemplating yet another move.  He sees that I am getting settled in here and it's killing him, so this will be like move # 28 or so in 13 years marriage.  The kids have no stability.

So Biblically speaking, this is where I have a hard time.  Submit to him in all things fitting in the Lord.  But how do you submit to crazy?  He doesn't necessarily ask me to do 'sinful' things, but I have completely lost myself.  I relate it like this... .a candle with a beautiful flame. I used to be that candle. Very fun, happy, loving, cheerful, and a peacemaker. Now the candle has been snuffed out and I'm just dead inside. I hate that.  If I were not a Christian, and did not gain grace and strength from the Lord... .I would be in a huge spider web right now of sin.

It's a fine line between how a Christian deals with BPD and a non-Christian because sometimes the right thing to do isn't clear with either case I would imagine.  But I am hugely against 'the end justifies the means' theory and my husband loves situational ethics, so it's just so complicated... .

[formflier]

  His big thing is that I'm sitting under the teaching of another man, and he literally hates that.

And this is wrong or unbiblical... .how?  What is his basing this on?  Even if he was teaching you... .there is always room for more Bible teaching... .restricting that to one person is not wise... .I would even say dangerous.

The other issue is having outside support.  I have to keep it all secret,

Why?  Keeping things secret is not a Biblical requirement.  You can't lie... .and you are not required to tell things... .but any inference that you are required to keep secrets in a marriage because of the Bible or Biblical teaching is erroneous... .in my mind.

and then he still does everything he can to read emails and such. 

You can have privacy in a Biblical marriage.  If he doesn't trust you... .then get a couple trusted women in the church to review your emails/texts... .invite them into your life to verify you are not engaging in sinful behavior.  That should do it for your husband... .if it doesn't... .he should explain that to church leadership.

H and that is why he is contemplating yet another move.

What would happen if you say you will only consider another move after a period of counseling and reflection? 

 

  But how do you submit to crazy? 

You don't.  Not submitting doesn't mean "antagonizing" him... .

Submitting does't mean that you do everything he says... .you are not his puppet.  It is fine to disagree.  Those disagreements should be taken to trusted elders to help sort out.  Wise older women to help you... .and wise older men to help him.  That is the Biblical model.  ":)o what I say... ."  IS NOT A BIBLICAL MODEL

What is Christlike in that?

 

It's a fine line between how a Christian deals with BPD and a non-Christian because sometimes the right thing to do isn't clear with either case I would imagine.  But I am hugely against 'the end justifies the means' theory and my husband loves situational ethics, so it's just so complicated... .

Hmmm... .can you write more about this "fine line" you see?  Can you give an actual example?

End justifies the means being bad only applies to sinful behavior.

If using SET (even if you think it is silly or feels weird... .) works to calm him down... .then the ends do justify the means... .

Full disclosure:  I still feel weird and "clumsy" talking that way  SET... .and validation... .it's just not my thing... .BUT IT WORKS... .SO I DO IT

[formflier]

 

Covering issues with love... .

Our spouses will never be perfect... .neither will we.  So in a r/s... pointing out all flaws... .will be destructive.

"Covering" some of those in love is a theory that works well in a Christian r/s.  Basically... .it means ignore them... .let them go... .

Another reason to involve a pastor is that you don't want to be the sole decider of what issues to "cover"... .and what issues to "deal with"... .

[Restored2]

Formflier quote:

"Here is the thing... .if a pwBPD is a professed Christian... .then I think that is a huge good thing... because by professing Christianity... .you are accepting authority of God and his word over your life... that controls your actions and choices.

So... don't hide a Christian that displays BPD traits from that authority and healing. 

God heals in many different ways.  I see the role of a Christian "non" as making sure they don't enable "running from God"... .There should be some sort of boundary used... .how that boundary is applied by be different in each r/s"

My question is should I look at exposing the BPD issues/concerns of my girlfriend I was dating to her pastor at her church and possibly even to her good family/friends, in order to help her get proper healing and loving support?  I don't believe anyone other than me knows of her BPD condition at all and she is a single mother of 5 children.

Restored2

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Are you still in a r/s with her?  Is there still any contact there?

My gut reaction is no.  I may be focusing on the "exposing" word a bit much in my thinking.  Christians don't "expose" each other.

We love each other and we are interested in "restoring" each other.  To me... ."exposing"... .and "restoring" are very different concepts.

IF... .and that is a big IF... .you were to move forward with something like this.  You have to go to her first.  Going to pastor is skipping over the biblical guidance on how to handle this.

[Applesmom4]

Formflier, your responses are very helpful and I appreciate them.  However, what may be truly unBiblical to you, can easily be twisted by my husband.  So not only does he literally control everything I do, he does it in a very condemning way.  For example, I wear a headcovering in accordance with 1 Cor 11.  I have for over four years, daily.  So when I was first convicted of this, I took it to him. He agreed and no problem.  But now he takes it to extremes and is very rude about it.  If I even step outside for one second without it he says I"m undressed or don't change yourself! or your showing your glory to the world! Things like that. Very rudely.  Anything he says to me is so super harsh anymore.  Sure I just let most of it go, but good grief, can't a  person get worn out!

So you see, being under the tutelage of another man, namely the pastor at church, is not something he allows because HE isn't there to see if the pastor is telling the truth or not.  See?  See how easy it is to twist those Scriptures?  Only my husband knows the truth of the Bible, and that he is not sick, and that women are 'down here'. That's it, period.

What I meant by the fine line, is simply that a woman can just love too much, whether a Christian or not.  In Christianity, a woman needs to follow what the word of God tells her to do, above all else. But a non Christian would tend to follow what the world, friends, etc teaches to do.  Well if you end up in counseling outside of the church, then it is not a surprise that psychology and the Bible don't mix, so then the choice has to be made of which direction to go.  Let's say if there are children involved, and the woman really does love the husband, just hates the illness.  Well, some psychologists would tell the Christian wife to do some things that aren't necessarily Biblical (such as not submitting to this or that), but some potentially Biblical suggestions might be made to the non Christian wife, such as working hard to build the marriage rather than just turning completely away like a lot of people would do.  I don't know... .just my thoughts.

[formflier]

First of all... I would ask you to pray... .and to realize that I'm saying these things in love.  That I want you, your husband, and your marriage to be healed and to enjoy the fullness of God's joy and grace.

So you see, being under the tutelage of another man, namely the pastor at church, is not something he allows because HE isn't there to see if the pastor is telling the truth or not.  See? 

That is his choice.  You are responsible for allowing him the opportunity to attend if he likes.  But you are NOT responsible for your husbands choices... .your husbands sin (if he has any). 

You are making a choice to allow your husband to control your spiritual growth.  It also seems that you have realized that he is twisting scripture in doing that.  And that after realizing that he is twisting things... .that you continue to  choose to allow him control.  I'm not aware of any Biblical doctrine, scripture, teaching that even remotely suggests this is a good idea.

Please read sections of the Bible about a marriage were two are "unequally yoked".  Prayerfully consider God's word in that area... .let me know if you believe you are being led in a certain direction.

 Well if you end up in counseling outside of the church, then it is not a surprise that psychology and the Bible don't mix, so then the choice has to be made of which direction to go.  

I have run into this line of thinking in many church circles.  With utmost respect for the opinions of others... .I don't see this at all.  I believe they do mix... .as long as you realize that one is science... .and one is religion... (ultimately based on belief).  Yes... .I believe science and Bible mix just fine... no conflict there at all.  We could totally get on a rabbit trail here... .but I don't see how the two don't mix when properly applied.  Religion is based on belief... .not upon observable measurement.  Science is not based on belief.  Usually people that mix those up claim that scientists "believe" this and that... .and religious people try to "prove" God. 

aren't necessarily Biblical (such as not submitting to this or that),

Can you spend some time explaining this more?  I'm worried about how the concept of submission (which I support) is playing out in your r/s (relationship). 

What does the Bible call on you to submit to?  If given a choice between submitting between the will of God and the will of your husband... .what do you choose?

[Restored2]

Are you still in a r/s with her?  Is there still any contact there?

My gut reaction is no.  I may be focusing on the "exposing" word a bit much in my thinking.  Christians don't "expose" each other.

We love each other and we are interested in "restoring" each other.  To me... ."exposing"... .and "restoring" are very different concepts.

IF... .and that is a big IF... .you were to move forward with something like this.  You have to go to her first.  Going to pastor is skipping over the biblical guidance on how to handle this.

Thank you for your response, formflier.

I may have used the word "exposed" improperly.  My intentions are for love and restoration.

I have already made some attempts with going to her first, both by letters and a phone call.  She has blocked me out via email, telephone and text messages though.  Should the next step in the process be to go to a Christian friend of hers before her pastor?

[KateCat]

Restored2,

It sounds as though you want to be a real friend to a troubled woman, but if she has broken up with you and blocked communication, then doing the things you are contemplating would be more likely to make you appear to be a stalker.

I think your own safety needs to come first at this time.

[Restored2]

Katecat,

I'm wanting to help someone I love through the proper channels for their own restoration first.  The key should be in how it is handled in order to avoid appearing to be a stalker.  It would need to be presented in a non-threatening manner.

[KateCat]

Here's the danger: "She has been previously abused by her father, mother, step father, husband, as well as from other men who have raped her." If she should indeed have a mental illness, then this is her story, and she's sticking to it. But now, she is likely to add an additional abuser, that guy who wouldn't leave her alone even after she clearly told him to. The fellow who smeared her to her friends. Who pursued her with the threat of "exposure" even into the halls of spiritual community.

Sometimes well-intentioned ex-boyfriends who post on this forum are shocked to see the police come knocking on their door.

[Rapt Reader]

I do agree with KateCat, Restored2... .If the relationship is over, and she is not interested in any further involvement with you, no matter what your good intentions are, you will be thought of as an interloper, or worse, someone "out to get her", even possibly by those folks you would like to engage in her behalf. I think the repercussions could end up being in line with what KateCat is suggesting.

Applesmom4, I understand what you are saying about being a Christian in what should be a good, Christian-based, marriage, and how it "feels" different to get secular help for your troubles with your Husband. I'd like to tell you a story, and how it opened up my eyes to God's plan for me and my marriage, and how He accomplished it. I'm not telling you (or anyone) this so that you do what I did; only because it shows that you can open yourself up to secular advice... .

Almost 30 years ago (when my Husband and I were married just 11 years), my Husband started an affair with a younger woman who attended the church we went to. This relationship lasted 2.5 years, the first 1.5 year of which I believed their denials of sexual intimacy because of my fear of divorce. I had 2 small boys, and as a Christian I didn't "believe in" divorce. It really never crossed my mind; I was dancing as fast as I could to make the marriage work, become a better wife so he would drop the other woman, and try to understand his feelings for her and what I'd done to contribute to his unfaithfulness 

At first (about a year into it), we went to Christian Counseling with our Pastor, who really didn't help in any way; he commiserated too much with my Husband, and told me I had to understand that H was having some sort of "crisis" and that I had to give him space and be loving and compassionate. My Husband had the Pastor also convinced that it was an "emotional affair" and the two of them actually became pretty close in all of their counseling sessions.

Once I realized (1.5 years into the affair) that my H and his girlfriend were actually having a full-blown affair, eventually I set us up with secular counseling; I went alone every week, he went with me a few times--and then a few times on his own--and then stopped because he wasn't willing to give up either me or the other woman. I'd found out that our Pastor, himself, was having an affair with another congregant (!), so never went back to him as a Counselor.

What happened that changed everything for me? During one of my sessions with my Counselor, he worked with me with what he called "Guided Imagery" where I laid down, did breathing exercises to become relaxed, and he helped me connect with my "Higher Power" who was Jesus in my case. It lasted quite a while, but you know what? Jesus told me that ":)ivorce is an option... ." and that He would always be there to catch me if I fell; that He would be there for me if my Husband was out of my life.

I remember saying "No! No!" over and over during that relaxed state, because I couldn't believe Jesus was suggesting to me that if we needed to get Divorced, then it was an option I was allowed to take. But Jesus just looked at me with gentle eyes, assuring me that there was always that possibility and I needed to accept that. I was shocked and shaken, and drove home from the appointment in deep thought.

That afternoon, when my Husband left for his late-shift at work--a little while before the kids were home from school--I suddenly got empowered about my situation and calmly told him that I wanted him to move out. After putting up with this affair for almost 2.5 years, he was shocked at my demeanor and resoluteness, and didn't balk. He moved out the next day--right in with her!--and within a few weeks he realized his mistake and then left her a couple of weeks after that and then spent time in an apartment we'd owned at the time, trying to woo me back. We eventually renewed our vows within a couple of months, and just celebrated our 40th Anniversary early this year.

What took me 2.5 years to accomplish, was accomplished within months after I made the decision to kick him out, under the guidance of Jesus giving me permission to get a Divorce if necessary... .Prior to that permission, I would never kick him out because I knew he'd move in with her, and I felt that something like that would leave me no other option than Divorce. It never occurred to me that I would be able to see that happen, and then be able to take him back and have a happy marriage. God does work in mysterious ways, and I sincerely believe that He uses secular counseling to do it, too 

[formflier]

 

Rapt Reader,

Thank you for sharing your story. 

Also... .to be clear... .the Bible does not "ban" divorce.  There is clarity that God "hates" divorce.

My interpretation (take it for what it is worth) is that if there is "true repentance"... .that divorce is not an option for a Christian.

But... .if there is sin in a marriage... .and a Christian is not repenting of it... .then it is not "sinful" to get a divorce.  Divorce is not a commandment in these cases... .but it is an option.

Nothing here is me telling anyone what to do... .just laying out there what I think is "mainstream Christian advice and thought on divorce".  And... what I agree with and believe.

[Restored2]

Katecat,

You appear to be quick to use labels that don't apply to me at all.  Namely; "stalker", "additional abuser", "fellow who smeared her to her friends", "who pursued her with the threat of 'exposure'".  These are pretty heavy claims to make that have an echo of BPD to them.  I am seeking sensitive advice, encouragement and support on this site.  Not critical attacks with unwarranted labels being thrown at me.

[KateCat]

Sorry not to be more clear in my intent, Restored2.

What I fear for you is that your ex, if she suffers from the disorder discussed in this forum, may be susceptible to seeing you and others in these terms. For instance, do you have any first-hand evidence that all the people from her past that she has labeled abusers are in fact what she sees them to be?

Sometimes individuals with personality disorders, especially women, are such "persuasive blamers" that law enforcement and the legal system can take their complaints pretty seriously and pretty far, causing harm to innocent people who may only be trying to help.

I do think you need to be wary. What if she told her pastor that you were a stalker, and he decided he needed to take steps to protect her from you?

[Restored2]

Apology accepted, Katecat.  Thank you for clarifying.  I appreciate your concerns.

Yes, I do have first-hand evidence that all of the people that she has labelled as abusers are in fact abusers.  One of them is in prison for sexual assaults against minors to this very day.  You do make a good point on being wary of her though.

I have met her pastor and have gotten to personally know him a bit, so I am not really concerned about any possible false accusations being made against me there.  People can easily read that I am of safe character.  Just the same, I still do need to be careful and watch my back.

[KateCat]

Glad that you are forewarned.

On the "Separating and Divorcing" board of this forum you can find a surprising number of ex-husbands who have suffered false accusations, and more than one who has spent a night or a week in jail. It's a shocking possibility, but not as rare as one might imagine.

[Restored2]

Thanks for the further forewarning.  I plan not to be another shocking statistic.

[Applesmom4]

Hi Rapt Reader,

I really appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I have some advice from Christian friends telling me that if he leaves to take this job he's debating, just to let him go and not follow.  It would make with 28th or so move for us and yet he will still be the same.  He has always promised he would change every time we moved because it was always the location that made him the way he was, but I know it's all untrue now. 

I am amazed at your courage and the way the Lord led you.  I always appreciate you sharing the troubles of pastoral counseling vs. secular counseling.  Not that every pastor is like that, but we do have to realize they aren't perfect and are people just like us too.  That's an eye opener and I'll give it some serious thought.

Formflier,

I completely understand that you are sharing in love and have in no way been offended.  I appreciate (and need) all the advice I can get.  I have a teachable spirit, so don't hold back!  Unfortunately I don't know very much about psychology anyway, except about some boundaries, in which I am so terrible at placing and keeping.  So I appreciate your words about mixing that with the Bible, and understand what you mean.

You asked about submitting... .So the Bible says in everything... .all things... .to submit.  Would I sin for my husband.  Let me think.  I have before but that was many years ago.  You know, I just started reading the book "When Women Love Too Much, who keep wishing and hoping he'll change."  That's an eye opener for sure!  See that's exactly it.  I do things thinking that THIS one thing will make him better.  I need to get take more control of saying no.  Although I don't sin for him at all, he continues to blame me for his sin. Such as porn.  He admitted last week that he had been looking at porn again (used to have a huge addiction), but then said I will be judged by God for that sin because I caused it.  If he can't have s** every night, it's my sin.

If he tells me not to go to church, and then I go anyway, how does that fall into the 'submitting' category.  That's my dilemma.  Submitting means to basically 'line up' with what he wants me to do, as long as it is not sin.  But he has made the head covering issue his rather than Gods. In other words, he thinks he controls my head covering, and forgets that I was convicted by the Holy Spirit to cover, not by my husband. 

So I just don't know what to do.  If I tell him no, then I feel like I'm not submitted, or at least he'll tell me that.  He jabs my spiritual life DAILY.  He will make comments about hell to me, like I'm definitely going there and such... .right in front of the kids.

I will read and be in prayer over your suggestions. Thank you

[formflier]

 

Does God want to you to submit to his will?

Does God want you to submit to your husband?

What do you do if faced with a choice between the two?

This is an area where I believe you need to get some in person advice from a couple of pastors... .and I would say a couple of "wise women"... .in other words... .not "new" Christians.

Do not just listen to me.  Do not just listen to one pastor or wise woman.

If you get differences of opinion... make sure they have a Biblical reference... .seek to understand how/why they interpret it that way.  Then... .pray a lot about hat.

At the end of this process... .it is my prayer for you that you have no ambiguity... .zero... .crystal clarity about who you submit to... .and why.

[ydrys017]

So, I've put a lot of thought into Formflier's comments about utilizing our Pastor with my pwBPD.  I have decided to keep on my current path, and will keep the Pastoral input as a future option.  Why?  I don't believe in my particular pastor, and his ability to assist with a pwBPD.  I realized that I've gotten to this point because the primary T that we initially utilized for MC is/was a Pastor, and uBPDw flat out denied any wrongdoing (although the forgiveness discussion always started a dysregulation during a session... .).  This T has been my primary T for over 6 years since uBPDw stopped going individually about 4 years ago, but then 'found the answer' in a new T that we've seen 1-2x a month as a MC for about a year.  Both T's have diagnosed the BPD - specifically after the physical altercation back in the Spring.  :'(

Thank you for igniting a mental journey, it was useful in realizing I have another lever to pull if/when the need arises.

[formflier]

 

Very wise to keep searching to find the right "mix". 

I have been through a number of counseling options... .some were more effective... some where less. 

Very important to make sure that a pastor, counselor... .trusted advisor... .whatever you want to call it... ."works" in a situation.

That person should "challenge" the non and the pwBPD... .how they go about that... .is most likely going to be very different.

[ydrys017]

So, my uBPDw went to our Pastor on her own without telling me, as well as some other women at Church.  Presumably on a 'negative advocate' campaign.  Unbeknownst to her I was fully aware, and after consulting with my T I too scheduled time with our Pastor to provide context to our situation and my intentions.  Wisely, our Pastor acknowledged that he is not a T, and is not really qualified to provide counseling other than a listening ear and Biblical advice.  I'm a very private person, so including more people in our situation is difficult to handle - especially since I teach an adult Sunday School class and some of the informed women are in my class.  This has always been a major sticking point with uBPDw - that the people in my class see me as positive, that I'm tricking all of them and should tell them how horrible I am... . 

I guess this went as well as can be expected.

[Chosen]

Me and my uBPDh are Christians too.  He is an esteemed member of the church, and I go to 2 churches (my home church, and "his" church which I attend after we got married a few years back).

The problem with taking the issue to the church, I would think, is that most church ministers don't have the knowledge and understanding of mental issues.  Especially if the person is hugh-functioning, they would never be able to tell outside the home.  Added to that is the fact that many high-functioning pwBPDs cover up really, really well.  Therefore, if you bring anybody in, and you "accuse" the pwBPD of anything, the blame will likely be shifted to you, and the church leader may just say "love him more, be more gentle etc etc".  Not that you shouldn't learn those, we could all learn those, but the pwBPD would have succeeded in shifting the blame to you 100% (this was what happened to us at premarital counselling.  It was a nightmare.  Absolutely horrifying.  I also had to suffer major consequences once we were out the church door.)

My h is very, VERY against therapy and counselling of any sort, and if anybody at all tries to suggest alternate ways of doing things, he gets very defensive.  I am blessed to have a female minister from my home church who has studied (and is practising) counselling, and has a wide knowledge of mental issues.  When things were really bad 2 years ago I saw her weekly (without my H knowing.  He would NOT approve of it.), she gave me advice, even gave me her apartment floor to sleep on when I had to leave our place late at night due to his threats.  It wasn't just practical help she gave me; she was my piece of sanity at a time when nobody on earth knew what was happening.  She encouraged me and helped me stand up for myself.  This worked for me and I'm now in a much better place emotionally and physically.

So I guess my advice is, if you find a person in church whom you can confide in, who has knowledge of pwBPD, by all means do so.  But just because they're church elders/ pastors/ ministers don't automatically mean that, and they can sometimes be just as ignorant as anybody else, if not more (too sheltered a life).  Then if you go to those people you may suffer more distress in the end.

[Chosen]

He jabs my spiritual life DAILY.  He will make comments about hell to me, like I'm definitely going there and such... .right in front of the kids.

Awwww Applesmom!  We don't have kids yet but I used to get those spiritual jabs as well.  Like how I should repent to God for causing him so much pain, he doesn't know whether I'm going to heaven, etc.  It used to hurt me so much, because my faith is a serious business to me!

Well... .pwBPDs know how to hit it where it hurts.  To be honest, if faith weren't important to you, he wouldn't attack you using those jabs.  He'd say other stuff.  At the end, I prayed and I know that God doesn't see us like our pwBPDs see us.  Our pwBPDs don't determine whether we go to heaven or hell.  Those things too a while to stop having an effect on me, and when they hurt me less, he said it less.

Hang in there.

[empath]

I and uBPDh are also believers, and we are both trained educationally for ministry. I'm also pretty well versed in people who make 'poor choices'. In our courtship and early years of marriage, we attended a very fundamentalist church -- wives were to submit (read 'obey' to their husbands, husbands make decisions and lead, etc. So, at a critical juncture in my career, I was unable to continue it. The non-physical abuse was more emotional and financial at that point.

Eventually, we became more involved in a healthier church and had some close friends. They were close enough to know that something was off, and the wife said privately to me that she was praying for our marriage.

Currently, we are in a much more accepting and healthy church. One that understands the need for holistic health -- mental health issues are not taboo. However, H is reluctant to reveal that he is seeing a T and on antidepressants. He would be mortified if they knew what led to those actions.

I wanted to say that 'submission' does not mean obedience to something that goes against God's word. We are commanded to meet together with other believers, so a husband who tells his wife not to go to church is telling her to sin. I've had to do this myself -- H didn't like it, but he knew that it would be sin not to.

The submission issue has been brought up more recently in our relationship as well -- he said that I should just obey/submit to his authority. It was part of a verbally abusive interaction. Submission is not something that one can demand of another; it is only something that can be given. So, it goes contrary to the exertion of control that often happens in the relationships with pwBPD.

Most pastors are ill-equipped to address mental health issues. So, it is wise to have a team of various professionals who can help to sort out the issues.

[Turkish]

It can be hard to reconcile faith and values in relationships. When religion and a community of believers, and pastoral counsel (good or bad) are involved, things can become complicated to say the least. This thread has reached its post limit, but I encourage the creation of a new topic to further discuss these important issues.

Turkish