BPD and the Church (Christian Discussion)

[Restored2]

Formflier quote:

"Here is the thing... .if a pwBPD is a professed Christian... .then I think that is a huge good thing... because by professing Christianity... .you are accepting authority of God and his word over your life... that controls your actions and choices.

So... don't hide a Christian that displays BPD traits from that authority and healing. 

God heals in many different ways.  I see the role of a Christian "non" as making sure they don't enable "running from God"... .There should be some sort of boundary used... .how that boundary is applied by be different in each r/s"

My question is should I look at exposing the BPD issues/concerns of my girlfriend I was dating to her pastor at her church and possibly even to her good family/friends, in order to help her get proper healing and loving support?  I don't believe anyone other than me knows of her BPD condition at all and she is a single mother of 5 children.

Restored2

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Are you still in a r/s with her?  Is there still any contact there?

My gut reaction is no.  I may be focusing on the "exposing" word a bit much in my thinking.  Christians don't "expose" each other.

We love each other and we are interested in "restoring" each other.  To me... ."exposing"... .and "restoring" are very different concepts.

IF... .and that is a big IF... .you were to move forward with something like this.  You have to go to her first.  Going to pastor is skipping over the biblical guidance on how to handle this.

[Applesmom4]

Formflier, your responses are very helpful and I appreciate them.  However, what may be truly unBiblical to you, can easily be twisted by my husband.  So not only does he literally control everything I do, he does it in a very condemning way.  For example, I wear a headcovering in accordance with 1 Cor 11.  I have for over four years, daily.  So when I was first convicted of this, I took it to him. He agreed and no problem.  But now he takes it to extremes and is very rude about it.  If I even step outside for one second without it he says I"m undressed or don't change yourself! or your showing your glory to the world! Things like that. Very rudely.  Anything he says to me is so super harsh anymore.  Sure I just let most of it go, but good grief, can't a  person get worn out!

So you see, being under the tutelage of another man, namely the pastor at church, is not something he allows because HE isn't there to see if the pastor is telling the truth or not.  See?  See how easy it is to twist those Scriptures?  Only my husband knows the truth of the Bible, and that he is not sick, and that women are 'down here'. That's it, period.

What I meant by the fine line, is simply that a woman can just love too much, whether a Christian or not.  In Christianity, a woman needs to follow what the word of God tells her to do, above all else. But a non Christian would tend to follow what the world, friends, etc teaches to do.  Well if you end up in counseling outside of the church, then it is not a surprise that psychology and the Bible don't mix, so then the choice has to be made of which direction to go.  Let's say if there are children involved, and the woman really does love the husband, just hates the illness.  Well, some psychologists would tell the Christian wife to do some things that aren't necessarily Biblical (such as not submitting to this or that), but some potentially Biblical suggestions might be made to the non Christian wife, such as working hard to build the marriage rather than just turning completely away like a lot of people would do.  I don't know... .just my thoughts.

[formflier]

First of all... I would ask you to pray... .and to realize that I'm saying these things in love.  That I want you, your husband, and your marriage to be healed and to enjoy the fullness of God's joy and grace.

So you see, being under the tutelage of another man, namely the pastor at church, is not something he allows because HE isn't there to see if the pastor is telling the truth or not.  See? 

That is his choice.  You are responsible for allowing him the opportunity to attend if he likes.  But you are NOT responsible for your husbands choices... .your husbands sin (if he has any). 

You are making a choice to allow your husband to control your spiritual growth.  It also seems that you have realized that he is twisting scripture in doing that.  And that after realizing that he is twisting things... .that you continue to  choose to allow him control.  I'm not aware of any Biblical doctrine, scripture, teaching that even remotely suggests this is a good idea.

Please read sections of the Bible about a marriage were two are "unequally yoked".  Prayerfully consider God's word in that area... .let me know if you believe you are being led in a certain direction.

 Well if you end up in counseling outside of the church, then it is not a surprise that psychology and the Bible don't mix, so then the choice has to be made of which direction to go.  

I have run into this line of thinking in many church circles.  With utmost respect for the opinions of others... .I don't see this at all.  I believe they do mix... .as long as you realize that one is science... .and one is religion... (ultimately based on belief).  Yes... .I believe science and Bible mix just fine... no conflict there at all.  We could totally get on a rabbit trail here... .but I don't see how the two don't mix when properly applied.  Religion is based on belief... .not upon observable measurement.  Science is not based on belief.  Usually people that mix those up claim that scientists "believe" this and that... .and religious people try to "prove" God. 

aren't necessarily Biblical (such as not submitting to this or that),

Can you spend some time explaining this more?  I'm worried about how the concept of submission (which I support) is playing out in your r/s (relationship). 

What does the Bible call on you to submit to?  If given a choice between submitting between the will of God and the will of your husband... .what do you choose?

[Restored2]

Are you still in a r/s with her?  Is there still any contact there?

My gut reaction is no.  I may be focusing on the "exposing" word a bit much in my thinking.  Christians don't "expose" each other.

We love each other and we are interested in "restoring" each other.  To me... ."exposing"... .and "restoring" are very different concepts.

IF... .and that is a big IF... .you were to move forward with something like this.  You have to go to her first.  Going to pastor is skipping over the biblical guidance on how to handle this.

Thank you for your response, formflier.

I may have used the word "exposed" improperly.  My intentions are for love and restoration.

I have already made some attempts with going to her first, both by letters and a phone call.  She has blocked me out via email, telephone and text messages though.  Should the next step in the process be to go to a Christian friend of hers before her pastor?

[KateCat]

Restored2,

It sounds as though you want to be a real friend to a troubled woman, but if she has broken up with you and blocked communication, then doing the things you are contemplating would be more likely to make you appear to be a stalker.

I think your own safety needs to come first at this time.

[Restored2]

Katecat,

I'm wanting to help someone I love through the proper channels for their own restoration first.  The key should be in how it is handled in order to avoid appearing to be a stalker.  It would need to be presented in a non-threatening manner.

[KateCat]

Here's the danger: "She has been previously abused by her father, mother, step father, husband, as well as from other men who have raped her." If she should indeed have a mental illness, then this is her story, and she's sticking to it. But now, she is likely to add an additional abuser, that guy who wouldn't leave her alone even after she clearly told him to. The fellow who smeared her to her friends. Who pursued her with the threat of "exposure" even into the halls of spiritual community.

Sometimes well-intentioned ex-boyfriends who post on this forum are shocked to see the police come knocking on their door.

[Rapt Reader]

I do agree with KateCat, Restored2... .If the relationship is over, and she is not interested in any further involvement with you, no matter what your good intentions are, you will be thought of as an interloper, or worse, someone "out to get her", even possibly by those folks you would like to engage in her behalf. I think the repercussions could end up being in line with what KateCat is suggesting.

Applesmom4, I understand what you are saying about being a Christian in what should be a good, Christian-based, marriage, and how it "feels" different to get secular help for your troubles with your Husband. I'd like to tell you a story, and how it opened up my eyes to God's plan for me and my marriage, and how He accomplished it. I'm not telling you (or anyone) this so that you do what I did; only because it shows that you can open yourself up to secular advice... .

Almost 30 years ago (when my Husband and I were married just 11 years), my Husband started an affair with a younger woman who attended the church we went to. This relationship lasted 2.5 years, the first 1.5 year of which I believed their denials of sexual intimacy because of my fear of divorce. I had 2 small boys, and as a Christian I didn't "believe in" divorce. It really never crossed my mind; I was dancing as fast as I could to make the marriage work, become a better wife so he would drop the other woman, and try to understand his feelings for her and what I'd done to contribute to his unfaithfulness 

At first (about a year into it), we went to Christian Counseling with our Pastor, who really didn't help in any way; he commiserated too much with my Husband, and told me I had to understand that H was having some sort of "crisis" and that I had to give him space and be loving and compassionate. My Husband had the Pastor also convinced that it was an "emotional affair" and the two of them actually became pretty close in all of their counseling sessions.

Once I realized (1.5 years into the affair) that my H and his girlfriend were actually having a full-blown affair, eventually I set us up with secular counseling; I went alone every week, he went with me a few times--and then a few times on his own--and then stopped because he wasn't willing to give up either me or the other woman. I'd found out that our Pastor, himself, was having an affair with another congregant (!), so never went back to him as a Counselor.

What happened that changed everything for me? During one of my sessions with my Counselor, he worked with me with what he called "Guided Imagery" where I laid down, did breathing exercises to become relaxed, and he helped me connect with my "Higher Power" who was Jesus in my case. It lasted quite a while, but you know what? Jesus told me that ":)ivorce is an option... ." and that He would always be there to catch me if I fell; that He would be there for me if my Husband was out of my life.

I remember saying "No! No!" over and over during that relaxed state, because I couldn't believe Jesus was suggesting to me that if we needed to get Divorced, then it was an option I was allowed to take. But Jesus just looked at me with gentle eyes, assuring me that there was always that possibility and I needed to accept that. I was shocked and shaken, and drove home from the appointment in deep thought.

That afternoon, when my Husband left for his late-shift at work--a little while before the kids were home from school--I suddenly got empowered about my situation and calmly told him that I wanted him to move out. After putting up with this affair for almost 2.5 years, he was shocked at my demeanor and resoluteness, and didn't balk. He moved out the next day--right in with her!--and within a few weeks he realized his mistake and then left her a couple of weeks after that and then spent time in an apartment we'd owned at the time, trying to woo me back. We eventually renewed our vows within a couple of months, and just celebrated our 40th Anniversary early this year.

What took me 2.5 years to accomplish, was accomplished within months after I made the decision to kick him out, under the guidance of Jesus giving me permission to get a Divorce if necessary... .Prior to that permission, I would never kick him out because I knew he'd move in with her, and I felt that something like that would leave me no other option than Divorce. It never occurred to me that I would be able to see that happen, and then be able to take him back and have a happy marriage. God does work in mysterious ways, and I sincerely believe that He uses secular counseling to do it, too 

[formflier]

 

Rapt Reader,

Thank you for sharing your story. 

Also... .to be clear... .the Bible does not "ban" divorce.  There is clarity that God "hates" divorce.

My interpretation (take it for what it is worth) is that if there is "true repentance"... .that divorce is not an option for a Christian.

But... .if there is sin in a marriage... .and a Christian is not repenting of it... .then it is not "sinful" to get a divorce.  Divorce is not a commandment in these cases... .but it is an option.

Nothing here is me telling anyone what to do... .just laying out there what I think is "mainstream Christian advice and thought on divorce".  And... what I agree with and believe.

[Restored2]

Katecat,

You appear to be quick to use labels that don't apply to me at all.  Namely; "stalker", "additional abuser", "fellow who smeared her to her friends", "who pursued her with the threat of 'exposure'".  These are pretty heavy claims to make that have an echo of BPD to them.  I am seeking sensitive advice, encouragement and support on this site.  Not critical attacks with unwarranted labels being thrown at me.

[KateCat]

Sorry not to be more clear in my intent, Restored2.

What I fear for you is that your ex, if she suffers from the disorder discussed in this forum, may be susceptible to seeing you and others in these terms. For instance, do you have any first-hand evidence that all the people from her past that she has labeled abusers are in fact what she sees them to be?

Sometimes individuals with personality disorders, especially women, are such "persuasive blamers" that law enforcement and the legal system can take their complaints pretty seriously and pretty far, causing harm to innocent people who may only be trying to help.

I do think you need to be wary. What if she told her pastor that you were a stalker, and he decided he needed to take steps to protect her from you?

[Restored2]

Apology accepted, Katecat.  Thank you for clarifying.  I appreciate your concerns.

Yes, I do have first-hand evidence that all of the people that she has labelled as abusers are in fact abusers.  One of them is in prison for sexual assaults against minors to this very day.  You do make a good point on being wary of her though.

I have met her pastor and have gotten to personally know him a bit, so I am not really concerned about any possible false accusations being made against me there.  People can easily read that I am of safe character.  Just the same, I still do need to be careful and watch my back.

[KateCat]

Glad that you are forewarned.

On the "Separating and Divorcing" board of this forum you can find a surprising number of ex-husbands who have suffered false accusations, and more than one who has spent a night or a week in jail. It's a shocking possibility, but not as rare as one might imagine.

[Restored2]

Thanks for the further forewarning.  I plan not to be another shocking statistic.

[Applesmom4]

Hi Rapt Reader,

I really appreciate you sharing your story with me.  I have some advice from Christian friends telling me that if he leaves to take this job he's debating, just to let him go and not follow.  It would make with 28th or so move for us and yet he will still be the same.  He has always promised he would change every time we moved because it was always the location that made him the way he was, but I know it's all untrue now. 

I am amazed at your courage and the way the Lord led you.  I always appreciate you sharing the troubles of pastoral counseling vs. secular counseling.  Not that every pastor is like that, but we do have to realize they aren't perfect and are people just like us too.  That's an eye opener and I'll give it some serious thought.

Formflier,

I completely understand that you are sharing in love and have in no way been offended.  I appreciate (and need) all the advice I can get.  I have a teachable spirit, so don't hold back!  Unfortunately I don't know very much about psychology anyway, except about some boundaries, in which I am so terrible at placing and keeping.  So I appreciate your words about mixing that with the Bible, and understand what you mean.

You asked about submitting... .So the Bible says in everything... .all things... .to submit.  Would I sin for my husband.  Let me think.  I have before but that was many years ago.  You know, I just started reading the book "When Women Love Too Much, who keep wishing and hoping he'll change."  That's an eye opener for sure!  See that's exactly it.  I do things thinking that THIS one thing will make him better.  I need to get take more control of saying no.  Although I don't sin for him at all, he continues to blame me for his sin. Such as porn.  He admitted last week that he had been looking at porn again (used to have a huge addiction), but then said I will be judged by God for that sin because I caused it.  If he can't have s** every night, it's my sin.

If he tells me not to go to church, and then I go anyway, how does that fall into the 'submitting' category.  That's my dilemma.  Submitting means to basically 'line up' with what he wants me to do, as long as it is not sin.  But he has made the head covering issue his rather than Gods. In other words, he thinks he controls my head covering, and forgets that I was convicted by the Holy Spirit to cover, not by my husband. 

So I just don't know what to do.  If I tell him no, then I feel like I'm not submitted, or at least he'll tell me that.  He jabs my spiritual life DAILY.  He will make comments about hell to me, like I'm definitely going there and such... .right in front of the kids.

I will read and be in prayer over your suggestions. Thank you

[formflier]

 

Does God want to you to submit to his will?

Does God want you to submit to your husband?

What do you do if faced with a choice between the two?

This is an area where I believe you need to get some in person advice from a couple of pastors... .and I would say a couple of "wise women"... .in other words... .not "new" Christians.

Do not just listen to me.  Do not just listen to one pastor or wise woman.

If you get differences of opinion... make sure they have a Biblical reference... .seek to understand how/why they interpret it that way.  Then... .pray a lot about hat.

At the end of this process... .it is my prayer for you that you have no ambiguity... .zero... .crystal clarity about who you submit to... .and why.

[ydrys017]

So, I've put a lot of thought into Formflier's comments about utilizing our Pastor with my pwBPD.  I have decided to keep on my current path, and will keep the Pastoral input as a future option.  Why?  I don't believe in my particular pastor, and his ability to assist with a pwBPD.  I realized that I've gotten to this point because the primary T that we initially utilized for MC is/was a Pastor, and uBPDw flat out denied any wrongdoing (although the forgiveness discussion always started a dysregulation during a session... .).  This T has been my primary T for over 6 years since uBPDw stopped going individually about 4 years ago, but then 'found the answer' in a new T that we've seen 1-2x a month as a MC for about a year.  Both T's have diagnosed the BPD - specifically after the physical altercation back in the Spring.  :'(

Thank you for igniting a mental journey, it was useful in realizing I have another lever to pull if/when the need arises.

[formflier]

 

Very wise to keep searching to find the right "mix". 

I have been through a number of counseling options... .some were more effective... some where less. 

Very important to make sure that a pastor, counselor... .trusted advisor... .whatever you want to call it... ."works" in a situation.

That person should "challenge" the non and the pwBPD... .how they go about that... .is most likely going to be very different.

[ydrys017]

So, my uBPDw went to our Pastor on her own without telling me, as well as some other women at Church.  Presumably on a 'negative advocate' campaign.  Unbeknownst to her I was fully aware, and after consulting with my T I too scheduled time with our Pastor to provide context to our situation and my intentions.  Wisely, our Pastor acknowledged that he is not a T, and is not really qualified to provide counseling other than a listening ear and Biblical advice.  I'm a very private person, so including more people in our situation is difficult to handle - especially since I teach an adult Sunday School class and some of the informed women are in my class.  This has always been a major sticking point with uBPDw - that the people in my class see me as positive, that I'm tricking all of them and should tell them how horrible I am... . 

I guess this went as well as can be expected.

[Chosen]

Me and my uBPDh are Christians too.  He is an esteemed member of the church, and I go to 2 churches (my home church, and "his" church which I attend after we got married a few years back).

The problem with taking the issue to the church, I would think, is that most church ministers don't have the knowledge and understanding of mental issues.  Especially if the person is hugh-functioning, they would never be able to tell outside the home.  Added to that is the fact that many high-functioning pwBPDs cover up really, really well.  Therefore, if you bring anybody in, and you "accuse" the pwBPD of anything, the blame will likely be shifted to you, and the church leader may just say "love him more, be more gentle etc etc".  Not that you shouldn't learn those, we could all learn those, but the pwBPD would have succeeded in shifting the blame to you 100% (this was what happened to us at premarital counselling.  It was a nightmare.  Absolutely horrifying.  I also had to suffer major consequences once we were out the church door.)

My h is very, VERY against therapy and counselling of any sort, and if anybody at all tries to suggest alternate ways of doing things, he gets very defensive.  I am blessed to have a female minister from my home church who has studied (and is practising) counselling, and has a wide knowledge of mental issues.  When things were really bad 2 years ago I saw her weekly (without my H knowing.  He would NOT approve of it.), she gave me advice, even gave me her apartment floor to sleep on when I had to leave our place late at night due to his threats.  It wasn't just practical help she gave me; she was my piece of sanity at a time when nobody on earth knew what was happening.  She encouraged me and helped me stand up for myself.  This worked for me and I'm now in a much better place emotionally and physically.

So I guess my advice is, if you find a person in church whom you can confide in, who has knowledge of pwBPD, by all means do so.  But just because they're church elders/ pastors/ ministers don't automatically mean that, and they can sometimes be just as ignorant as anybody else, if not more (too sheltered a life).  Then if you go to those people you may suffer more distress in the end.

[Chosen]

He jabs my spiritual life DAILY.  He will make comments about hell to me, like I'm definitely going there and such... .right in front of the kids.

Awwww Applesmom!  We don't have kids yet but I used to get those spiritual jabs as well.  Like how I should repent to God for causing him so much pain, he doesn't know whether I'm going to heaven, etc.  It used to hurt me so much, because my faith is a serious business to me!

Well... .pwBPDs know how to hit it where it hurts.  To be honest, if faith weren't important to you, he wouldn't attack you using those jabs.  He'd say other stuff.  At the end, I prayed and I know that God doesn't see us like our pwBPDs see us.  Our pwBPDs don't determine whether we go to heaven or hell.  Those things too a while to stop having an effect on me, and when they hurt me less, he said it less.

Hang in there.

[empath]

I and uBPDh are also believers, and we are both trained educationally for ministry. I'm also pretty well versed in people who make 'poor choices'. In our courtship and early years of marriage, we attended a very fundamentalist church -- wives were to submit (read 'obey' to their husbands, husbands make decisions and lead, etc. So, at a critical juncture in my career, I was unable to continue it. The non-physical abuse was more emotional and financial at that point.

Eventually, we became more involved in a healthier church and had some close friends. They were close enough to know that something was off, and the wife said privately to me that she was praying for our marriage.

Currently, we are in a much more accepting and healthy church. One that understands the need for holistic health -- mental health issues are not taboo. However, H is reluctant to reveal that he is seeing a T and on antidepressants. He would be mortified if they knew what led to those actions.

I wanted to say that 'submission' does not mean obedience to something that goes against God's word. We are commanded to meet together with other believers, so a husband who tells his wife not to go to church is telling her to sin. I've had to do this myself -- H didn't like it, but he knew that it would be sin not to.

The submission issue has been brought up more recently in our relationship as well -- he said that I should just obey/submit to his authority. It was part of a verbally abusive interaction. Submission is not something that one can demand of another; it is only something that can be given. So, it goes contrary to the exertion of control that often happens in the relationships with pwBPD.

Most pastors are ill-equipped to address mental health issues. So, it is wise to have a team of various professionals who can help to sort out the issues.

[Turkish]

It can be hard to reconcile faith and values in relationships. When religion and a community of believers, and pastoral counsel (good or bad) are involved, things can become complicated to say the least. This thread has reached its post limit, but I encourage the creation of a new topic to further discuss these important issues.

Turkish