Picking at emotional sore spots

[Our abuse recovery guide]

So, I had a phone convo with my uBPDm this morning - about 15 minutes long - she had called me on her way to a doctor's appointment. My relationship with her is mostly peaceable (her BPD behaviors have settled to a simmer compared to the raging boil they were at a decade ago), but limited. We talk on the phone every couple of weeks, and interact lightly on Facebook. A couple of months ago I had a long convo with her about why my husband and I were not responding to her invasive maneuvers to "get to know him better." (My mom lives 14 hours away from us and has spent about two days with my husband in-person, but wants the same close friendship with him that she wants and never really gets with me.)

Now, there are basically 4 things that I never want to discuss with my mother:

1. Anything at all about my dad (who left her several years ago. They're still legally married.)

2. Anything remotely intimate about my love life (or hers) (ugh ugh ugh)

3. Anything slightly negative about my siblings (can you say triangulation?)

4. Anything about the weird behaviors of my uBPDmil who we are completely NC with (my mom is still Facebook friends with her   )

My mom knows I don't want to discuss any of these things, because I have so often stopped her and told her I will not discuss them. Usually when she begins to bring up something about one of these people, she'll start by saying, "I know you don't like me to talk about... ." to which I interrupt, "Well, you don't have to, then," which usually works. Or I just change the subject. But even when she thinks she's abiding by my rules, she'll often edge so close to the sore topics that I want to hang up on her without an explanation.

Today, it was like this -

"Hey, Claudia! I had something funny to tell you - well, I called Daddy first, but he wasn't available, but you and he like the same things so I thought of you next... ." 

"... .so I was thinking about the really great anniversary gift I saw on Facebook that Duffy gave you, and I was wondering, what kind of gifts do YOU give back to such a sweet and romantic husband?... ."

"... .I know you asked me to back off of trying to get to know Duffy long-distance, and I understand why, but I was wondering if he would mind if I asked him a few questions about my computer acting up. I saw this comment that his mom posted on something I'd written about a computer problem a few months ago, and she said, 'Why don't you ask your dear son-in-law? He knows everything about computers!' She called him a nickname I didn't know y'all called him... .oh, only she calls him that?... ."

**headdesk**

The thing is, it was OVERALL one of the more... .peaceful conversations we've had. She was in a pretty good mood, even though most of the convo was about how she doesn't know how she can make ends meet this month because of a physical problem that's dropping her work hours and generating doctor bills (not a fabrication; my mom is actually a really hard worker with a high pain tolerance.) All the above statements were just part of her general desire to be natural and free in conversation and connect with me. But despite her efforts to abide by my stated boundaries, she just can't seem to help getting as close to them as possible.

None of this is surprising, but I am left trying to figure out how I feel about it all. I don't particularly want to cut my mom completely out of my life; she doesn't weigh much on me anymore, and I can shake off irritations like this with a good venting session and some meditation. But I get very little enjoyment out of interacting with her, especially because no matter how hard she tries not to, she always manages to pick at those emotional sore spots in even the best conversations. I don't feel like I have to sever our relationship for my health or hers, but I... .just wish I didn't feel like flinging the phone across the room every thirty seconds.

[claudiaduffy]

So, I had a phone convo with my uBPDm this morning - about 15 minutes long - she had called me on her way to a doctor's appointment. My relationship with her is mostly peaceable (her BPD behaviors have settled to a simmer compared to the raging boil they were at a decade ago), but limited. We talk on the phone every couple of weeks, and interact lightly on Facebook. A couple of months ago I had a long convo with her about why my husband and I were not responding to her invasive maneuvers to "get to know him better." (My mom lives 14 hours away from us and has spent about two days with my husband in-person, but wants the same close friendship with him that she wants and never really gets with me.)

Now, there are basically 4 things that I never want to discuss with my mother:

1. Anything at all about my dad (who left her several years ago. They're still legally married.)

2. Anything remotely intimate about my love life (or hers) (ugh ugh ugh)

3. Anything slightly negative about my siblings (can you say triangulation?)

4. Anything about the weird behaviors of my uBPDmil who we are completely NC with (my mom is still Facebook friends with her   )

My mom knows I don't want to discuss any of these things, because I have so often stopped her and told her I will not discuss them. Usually when she begins to bring up something about one of these people, she'll start by saying, "I know you don't like me to talk about... ." to which I interrupt, "Well, you don't have to, then," which usually works. Or I just change the subject. But even when she thinks she's abiding by my rules, she'll often edge so close to the sore topics that I want to hang up on her without an explanation.

Today, it was like this -

"Hey, Claudia! I had something funny to tell you - well, I called Daddy first, but he wasn't available, but you and he like the same things so I thought of you next... ." 

"... .so I was thinking about the really great anniversary gift I saw on Facebook that Duffy gave you, and I was wondering, what kind of gifts do YOU give back to such a sweet and romantic husband?... ."

"... .I know you asked me to back off of trying to get to know Duffy long-distance, and I understand why, but I was wondering if he would mind if I asked him a few questions about my computer acting up. I saw this comment that his mom posted on something I'd written about a computer problem a few months ago, and she said, 'Why don't you ask your dear son-in-law? He knows everything about computers!' She called him a nickname I didn't know y'all called him... .oh, only she calls him that?... ."

**headdesk**

The thing is, it was OVERALL one of the more... .peaceful conversations we've had. She was in a pretty good mood, even though most of the convo was about how she doesn't know how she can make ends meet this month because of a physical problem that's dropping her work hours and generating doctor bills (not a fabrication; my mom is actually a really hard worker with a high pain tolerance.) All the above statements were just part of her general desire to be natural and free in conversation and connect with me. But despite her efforts to abide by my stated boundaries, she just can't seem to help getting as close to them as possible.

None of this is surprising, but I am left trying to figure out how I feel about it all. I don't particularly want to cut my mom completely out of my life; she doesn't weigh much on me anymore, and I can shake off irritations like this with a good venting session and some meditation. But I get very little enjoyment out of interacting with her, especially because no matter how hard she tries not to, she always manages to pick at those emotional sore spots in even the best conversations. I don't feel like I have to sever our relationship for my health or hers, but I... .just wish I didn't feel like flinging the phone across the room every thirty seconds.

[claudiaduffy]

... .and yes, I know that this is like complaining about mosquito bites when people all around me are dealing with rabid dogs at their throats - I am really, really grateful that the turmoil with my mom has decreased to the level that it's at now. This is more about me than her; trying to be graceful, kind to myself, kind (though distant) to her. Trying to hold onto the dual truth that while I wish her absolutely no harm, and do not feel that she is dragging down my life significantly, I still would only be relieved if I never had the opportunity to interact with her again. (It's hard to say that. What if she found this online and knew it was me? Just because I don't let that fear control me, I still have to constantly fight it.)

[Ziggiddy]

oh my - totally with you there, Claudia!

Unlike you though, I believe my uBPDm skirts close to the boundaries on pupose.

She has been so used to me not being able to stick to them that she tests by fliting with them. or that's what I suspect.

it can be incredibly frustrating to not get the depth of conversation can't it?

The topics close to your heart are no-go zones and so you are left with minimal options - either fully repudiate any attempts or close up and discuss the weather.

My mum loves to go into long winded detail about people I don't know and their neighbour's relative's accident that happened in a place I never heard of blahblah. meaningful conversation may just not be possible.

Like you I don't want to never talk to her again but when I do talk to her I wonder if I can get other stuff done in the meantime.

Sounds mean but I figure if she doesn't want to respect my boundary (25 years of telling her I can't take in that much detail and make sense of it - response: "Ah you just have a short attention span"   SRSLY?) why should I respect the conventions of paying attention?

While I am glad you had a peaceful conversation I can understand it might be disappointing for you to not have had a real conversation!

Zig

[claudiaduffy]

Zig - ahhhhhhhhhh, the neverending details and backtracking and completely irrelevant information about stories I CARE NOTHING ABOUT. Yes, my mom too!

The thing is, I don't even want meaningful conversations with my mom. I actually don't want any conversations with my mom. But it is my choice to not shove her completely out of my life; I choose this because it's easier for me to handle this kind of relationship than it would be to deal with the ripples from my large family if I did completely cut her off. Who knows, if I didn't have any family, I might still choose to have this relationship, merely out of self-respect and re-emphasizing to myself that while I don't like my mom, I respect her personhood and intrinsic value as a human being, and, in that sense, I love her; that it costs me very little to give her small validation (which is huge for her) and maintain healthy boundaries (which is necessary for me.) Now, if my mom were continuing to treat me like she did fifteen years ago, I would cut her off. But she isn't. And I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to justify - to myself - cutting her off just because maintaining a low-key relationship is inconvenient, irritating, and eye-roll-inducing for me.

So, as long as I hold to this choice, I do want whatever conversations I have with my mom to be as good as possible. But my definition of "good" is currently "short, without me cracking in irritation and giving her more info than I want to give." Part of my irritation today is that I DID crack a little - when she asked me what gifts I give Duffy, I shot back, "Well, I'm not going to post on Facebook what I gave him for our anniversary"... .which was, of course, what she was looking for. I gave Duffy some fancy lingerie for me to wear. I didn't tell my mom that, but she could correctly surmise from my response that what I gave him was private/romantic, and having this information pleased her. So I am frustrated with myself, because I broke my own rules.

[Harri]

Hi Claudia.  I never wanted to break contact completely with my mother either.  My circumstances made limited contact very doable and much easier than cutting contact would have been.  As toxic as she was, she was relatively easy to manage once I got a handle on boundaries with her and getting over my fear.  I also used my limited contact to learn to say no, set boundaries and stand up for myself.  It was a deliberate choice... .I sort of used my family as practice.  (it is what it is, though I am not proud of that)

And I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to justify - to myself - cutting her off just because maintaining a low-key relationship is inconvenient, irritating, and eye-roll-inducing for me.

Claudia, I find it was the eye roll worthy events and issues that were the hardest for me to deal with.  The constant pushing right to the edge of boundaries and the subtle digs and covert manipulations would stretch my last nerve.  Of course you want to fling the phone across the room.  Pushing the limits like that is frustrating, manipulative and annoying as hell.  Add that to all the abuse and major crap she pulled years ago and of course your patience and tolerance is going to be in short supply.  The thing is, she should not be pushing you like she does, so I am not sure justifying any kind of reaction or response you have is fair to *you*.  I know you know that, but I still have to say it to you.   

I can also relate to your wish to not have any conversations with your mother.  I felt the very same way.  You may have given her more info than you wanted this time, but that's okay.  Chances are, if it ever does happen again, it won't be for a very long time right?   

Besides, I had no clue that you were referring to fancy lingerie when you said you were not going to post it on facebook.  Seriously.  A lot of people, including me, only use facebook for light and impersonal stuff so I thought nothing of it.  Is it possible your mother would be clueless like me? 

[claudiaduffy]

Besides, I had no clue that you were referring to fancy lingerie when you said you were not going to post it on facebook.  Seriously.  A lot of people, including me, only use facebook for light and impersonal stuff so I thought nothing of it.  Is it possible your mother would be clueless like me? 

It's possible, though my mom is far more likely to read sexual meaning into innocent things than to not pick up on something potentially embarrassing that I was trying to protect. She's kind of a wink-wink-nudge-nudge queen.

Thanks for the reminders on the rest. It's a comfort and a boost to have someone other than me say the healthy and helpful things!

[Ziggiddy]

I did not see your second comment when I posted mine.

Iam alarmed at this:

... .and yes, I know that this is like complaining about mosquito bites when people all around me are dealing with rabid dogs at their throats

Claudia please don't minimise your pain. Mosquito bites are painful and irritating. Pain is pain. It's not relative. (Or it is when it comes from our relative   )

What I mean is it's not a finite thing where everybody only gets so much.

I wonder if your mother has trained you in a "Well what about me? How do you think I feel?" kind of way?

A normal person doesn't belittle someone else's pain by comparison.

Your pain matters just as much as theirs - it's not comparative.

Also, don't beat yourself up too much about making a mistake. Sometimes we need to make the same mistake over and over before the lesson sinks in. Once it's in there it's permanent!

Zig

[Coral]

WOW. Claudia, are you sure she slips into/near forbidden territory by mistake? Zig's comment "on purpose" statement was a bucket of cold water over the head.  My BPDsib does exactly the same thing on purpose.  My hubby refuses to be alone w/sib.  Period.  Don't even ask. She desperately wants a "close" (read weapon) relationship with him.  Is not going to happen.  No, I will not discuss intimacies, anything that's sensitive/emotional, or my kids. No no no

[claudiaduffy]

I did not see your second comment when I posted mine.

Iam alarmed at this:

... .and yes, I know that this is like complaining about mosquito bites when people all around me are dealing with rabid dogs at their throats

Claudia please don't minimise your pain. Mosquito bites are painful and irritating. Pain is pain. It's not relative. (Or it is when it comes from our relative   )

What I mean is it's not a finite thing where everybody only gets so much.

Yeah - I really am not; I'm a rather tongue-in-cheek person and sometimes it doesn't come across in writing so very well!

I do not mean to minimize my pain. I mean to acknowledge others' pain and ongoing situations with people who are abusing them and not backing off. I sometimes downplay what my mom does, PARTIALLY because my own mother-in-law is so very much worse, and it's given me better perspective on my mom's abuses; helped me to see how my mom actually does make an effort and succeeds, about sixty percent of the time, at curbing the worst of her behaviors. She does this without any formal therapy, in response to people's healthy boundaries with her, and with a faint gleam of actual humility. My mother-in-law is, I believe, completely and utterly incapable (though at least partially incapable by choice) of that kind of self-improvement - and there are so many folks here on the forum whose pwBPD are more like my mil than my mom. This doesn't mean that my mom doesn't hurt me, or that my hurt doesn't count, but I do want to acknowledge that what I am experiencing is, actually, more akin to aggravation than to devastation. I want live in a tension where I can call toxicity out for what it is, but also be glad that I am mostly free of it and only have the more minor effects to deal with.

[claudiaduffy]

WOW. Claudia, are you sure she slips into/near forbidden territory by mistake? Zig's comment "on purpose" statement was a bucket of cold water over the head. 

My mom sometimes does it on purpose! But she also sometimes does it on accident; in part because my brother and sister and other relatives don't have the "rules" with her that I do, so there are just patterns that she actually does slip up on and just continue with me. Casually mentioning my dad to me, and mentioning my mother-in-law, in this instance felt much more like she was just doing her usual running-of-the-mouth and telling me unnecessary detail of her train of thought - always having this huge backstory for any minor thing she wanted to ask me about - than trying to slip in forbidden topics on purpose. She does that often enough, and it feels differently. That's part of what was so groan-inducing for me; that even when my mom is trying to be upbeat, non-needy, and non-critical, I just can't stand the way her mind works.

I would PREFER, honestly, for her to be doing these things always on purpose and more blatantly and aggressively. Part of me wants to have ammunition to shoot back at her. Part of me wants to hurt her back for the way she hurt me and my siblings when we were kids. Part of me feels that it's unfair that she's come such a long way and behaves so much better than she used to. I want to feel vindicated in thinking that she's almost entirely bad. But - that part of me is a bruise on my soul, and it is growing smaller as my soul heals. I am not being taken in by my mom trying to manipulate and pretend it's an accident. Honestly, even as a kid, I could see through all the manipulation attempts; I was better at it than she was, the times I tried (and succeeded) in getting my own way against her. But I stopped doing it because having that kind of success made my heart sick.

My mom's heart is sick. Even in its more peaceful state these days, it's just never going to be well. Her better conversations still have the taste and smell of the worse conversations. It's like a home that smells of cat waste even when the owner has been doing a lot better in recent weeks about emptying the litterboxes frequently.

[funfunctional]

I am impressed with the hAndle you have on the disease and your mom.   You see the destrutive behAviors and triangle activities.   It is good you stop her in tracks right away.   Love the line "i know you dont like to talk about... ."     Lol

So typical.   

Good luck and dont let your guard down.  It sounds rather oddly aggressive your mom wants to become friends with your husband.    I didnt like that.   Red flag went up. 

Take care

[claudiaduffy]

Good luck and dont let your guard down.  It sounds rather oddly aggressive your mom wants to become friends with your husband.    I didnt like that.   Red flag went up. 

Take care

Yep. I don't like it either, and neither does Duffy. Mom sees it as no different from the peaceable and fairly close relationship she herself has always had with her own mother in law - my paternal grandmother - who is a really lovely person, and whom my mother actually doesn't even attempt to manipulate. (That grandmother is healthy enough that it would be rather difficult to manipulate her even if one was more skillful than my mom.) My mom knows that Duffy's mom is bad news, and I think she thinks that in one fell swoop she could be the mom he's missing, AND gain a loving son-in-law to make up for her own son's disappointing hatefulness, if only she could get Duffy to like her. 

If only "Back off, b1tch!" were something I could say to my mom. I mean, I would say it in those words if it would get the point across, but it would only confuse her and make her fear for my soul.   So I say it by refusing to give her what she wants. Over and over again.