She said she "looks up to me"

[maxsterling]

I think a healthy and functional relationship is one where both partners know who they are, what their values are, and have a mutual respect.  In other words, one does not need the other person to "complete" them. 

That's probably never possible with a pwBPD, so functionality in a the relationship must come in different ways. 

Yesterday, after an anxiety driven dysregulation, she said she "looks up to me."  I think that statement is quite telling.  Despite how much she criticizes me at times, the way I do things, I think she looks at me as a happy person and is jealous.  Her criticism may stem from that I *have* a method or a standard for doing things, and it works for me, and she doesn't have that, so she is jealous. 

But "looks up to me"?  Wow. 

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[vortex of confusion]

But "looks up to me"?  Wow. 

I have had my husband say something similar. He said that he gets jealous of how I make everything look so easy. He says he feels like he struggles to do anything and here I am doing stuff. It is like he has made everything between us into a competition and he is tired of losing. I never ever would have thought of that. I have tried to encourage him to do his own thing and stop trying to compete with me. I feel like he tries to be like me a lot of times. I have tried to encourage him to focus on his own strengths and stop trying to be like me. That was a while back but I still see it come up from time to time. It makes it really difficult for me to be fully human because that means that I have him and all of the kids looking up to me and watching my every move.

It is definitely mind boggling!

[maxsterling]

That most basic "what do you like to do for fun" just isn't there.  It's touching, yet a little scary at the same time.  Look up to me?  I don't consider myself special in any way.  I think her statement touches on that core lack of identity issue.  She doesn't know who she is.

[waverider]

That most basic "what do you like to do for fun" just isn't there.  It's touching, yet a little scary at the same time.  Look up to me?  I don't consider myself special in any way.  I think her statement touches on that core lack of identity issue.  She doesn't know who she is.

A good issue you raise, whilst it may be validating to you it is self invalidating for then. They are in effect saying they are not worthy/ they are a failure.

To say you admire someone is fine, to look up to someone inherently places you as a lesser.

I get this all the time.

"what do you like to do for fun?" This question is usually answered with a blank, or something they think may impress you, maybe mirroring your own interests, or something that sounds appropriate with no real substance (think here Miss Universe contestant responses)

[joshbjoshb]

"what do you like to do for fun?" This question is usually answered with a blank, or something they think may impress you, maybe mirroring your own interests, or something that sounds appropriate with no real substance (think here Miss Universe contestant responses)

LOL! exactly.

[lemon flower]

I just became member of a family support group for relatives of pwBPD and we will be offered a training in how to handle a pwBPD.

one of the first things the therapist mentioned was that pwBPD are very uncertain about their own actions and values, they need others as a role model.

she said it is absolutely no problem if they take you as some kind of model to refer to as a good example in how to live their life and how to react properly.

I can see the logic of that and it wouldn't bother me if my friend would copy me in some way, as long as it doesn't get too creepy 

I think this theory is referred to as taking the role of "super-ego" for the pwBPD, I've read about that somewhere.

[waverider]

I just became member of a family support group for relatives of pwBPD and we will be offered a training in how to handle a pwBPD.

one of the first things the therapist mentioned was that pwBPD are very uncertain about their own actions and values, they need others as a role model.

she said it is absolutely no problem if they take you as some kind of model to refer to as a good example in how to live their life and how to react properly.

I can see the logic of that and it wouldn't bother me if my friend would copy me in some way, as long as it doesn't get too creepy  

I think this theory is referred to as taking the role of "super-ego" for the pwBPD, I've read about that somewhere.

A role model is good. A copy is avoidance of owning ones sense of self.

eg setting a good example with values like honesty and helping others, trying new experiences etc

Not pizza is my favorite food because pizza is your favorite food. I like fishing because you like fishing. This mirroring and can create misleading impressions as to who they are. It is also what attracts people to them in the first place.

[maxsterling]

she said it is absolutely no problem if they take you as some kind of model to refer to as a good example in how to live their life and how to react properly.

I can see the logic of that and it wouldn't bother me if my friend would copy me in some way, as long as it doesn't get too creepy 

I think this theory is referred to as taking the role of "super-ego" for the pwBPD, I've read about that somewhere.

I don't think the "mentor" role is very healthy for a romantic relationship.  If she were to look up to a friend or family member, that seems different than looking up to a partner (whom you are supposed to be an equal with).  If she learns from me, that's great.  And If I learn from her, that's great, too.  But to "look up to" feels like another level that may be unhealthy in the long term.  What waverider said I think illustrates the difference here - if my values and the way I live my life rub off on her, that could be good.  But if she is copying what I do as a means of trying to be happy, that's bad.

[Mr. Solo]

she said it is absolutely no problem if they take you as some kind of model to refer to as a good example in how to live their life and how to react properly.

I can see the logic of that and it wouldn't bother me if my friend would copy me in some way, as long as it doesn't get too creepy 

I think this theory is referred to as taking the role of "super-ego" for the pwBPD, I've read about that somewhere.

I don't think the "mentor" role is very healthy for a romantic relationship.  If she were to look up to a friend or family member, that seems different than looking up to a partner (whom you are supposed to be an equal with).  If she learns from me, that's great.  And If I learn from her, that's great, too.  But to "look up to" feels like another level that may be unhealthy in the long term.  What waverider said I think illustrates the difference here - if my values and the way I live my life rub off on her, that could be good.  But if she is copying what I do as a means of trying to be happy, that's bad.

My dBPDw told me after she flipped out she saw me a little like a father figure. She had always said something like that but never came right out and said it. I told her we were equal and I certainly don't see her as a daughter.

[maxsterling]

My dBPDw told me after she flipped out she saw me a little like a father figure. She had always said something like that but never came right out and said it. I told her we were equal and I certainly don't see her as a daughter.

Interesting.  She recently told me that most of the nastiness she says to me while dysregulated is really stuff she wants to say to her father.  Not that he deserves the nastiness, but her saying that tells me a little about how she is viewing me when she is upset.   Here is another two edge sword.  On one level, she seems to want some kind of father figure to show her what to do in life (the mentor), yet she can't stand being controlled.  She wants a loving father to guide her (something she feels she missed out on), yet claims her father is the ultimate control freak and can't stand him.  Classic push-pull.  She also says she wants to be dominated during sex - something I am not comfortable with.  Yet she can't stand it when men are only interested in sex.

I never saw her relationship with her father when she was younger, and obviously what I am told is one-sided.  But from what I know, it's not like the guy didn't care and didn't try.  It's tough being the parent of a child with BPD.  Us as significant others have the option of ending the r/s, taking a break, etc.  You can't exactly do that with a 12 year old daughter.  But their relationship now - I think both of them are better off keeping it on a reduced level - to not expect anything out of the other.  I think he is there so long as she will stay on her side of the street.  But she seems to want something else at times, and will lash out at him and he gets defensive and it gets real ugly.  My fiancé's mother was horribly abusive to her.  Yet, somehow she has come to peace (mostly) with her mother (now deceased) and still villainizes her father.  I read that BPD can be brought on by childhood abandonment or trauma.  Her mother was certainly a source of trauma, but the abandonment seems to be mostly a father issue - her blaming him for her mother's abuse - because he left.  I think that is what triggers the worst of her rages against me - that she is distressed and she perceives me of incapable of doing anything to solve her problems or me ignoring her problems, and I become her father.  And that's my life - her constantly complaining about this or that, and me not knowing what to say, or simply tired of hearing it.  And if I don't respond, or don't validate, she quickly notices, I become her father, and instant rage.  And she will blame me for things that happened long before I even met her!

[waverider]

My dBPDw told me after she flipped out she saw me a little like a father figure.

I heard the exact same line. The fact that her dad was a life long alcoholic, which eventually killed him, and was dominated by her mum, shows what a delusion this role model was. She also followed the alcoholism as means of coping. Maybe mirroring his coping mechanism, and that alone formed "bonding", rather than seeking the positive role model.

[Mr. Solo]

My dBPDw told me after she flipped out she saw me a little like a father figure. She had always said something like that but never came right out and said it. I told her we were equal and I certainly don't see her as a daughter.

Interesting.  She recently told me that most of the nastiness she says to me while dysregulated is really stuff she wants to say to her father.  Not that he deserves the nastiness, but her saying that tells me a little about how she is viewing me when she is upset.   Here is another two edge sword.  On one level, she seems to want some kind of father figure to show her what to do in life (the mentor), yet she can't stand being controlled.  She wants a loving father to guide her (something she feels she missed out on), yet claims her father is the ultimate control freak and can't stand him.  Classic push-pull.  She also says she wants to be dominated during sex - something I am not comfortable with.  Yet she can't stand it when men are only interested in sex.

I never saw her relationship with her father when she was younger, and obviously what I am told is one-sided.  But from what I know, it's not like the guy didn't care and didn't try.  It's tough being the parent of a child with BPD.  Us as significant others have the option of ending the r/s, taking a break, etc.  You can't exactly do that with a 12 year old daughter.  But their relationship now - I think both of them are better off keeping it on a reduced level - to not expect anything out of the other.  I think he is there so long as she will stay on her side of the street.  But she seems to want something else at times, and will lash out at him and he gets defensive and it gets real ugly.  My fiancé's mother was horribly abusive to her.  Yet, somehow she has come to peace (mostly) with her mother (now deceased) and still villainizes her father.  I read that BPD can be brought on by childhood abandonment or trauma.  Her mother was certainly a source of trauma, but the abandonment seems to be mostly a father issue - her blaming him for her mother's abuse - because he left.  I think that is what triggers the worst of her rages against me - that she is distressed and she perceives me of incapable of doing anything to solve her problems or me ignoring her problems, and I become her father.  And that's my life - her constantly complaining about this or that, and me not knowing what to say, or simply tired of hearing it.  And if I don't respond, or don't validate, she quickly notices, I become her father, and instant rage.  And she will blame me for things that happened long before I even met her!

Yeah. My wife did the ole "I like people who tell me what to do" then "You are controlling and a bully," switch-a-roo a few times. In fact, she pulled switch-a-roos on just about everything one could imagine. Very frustrating.

[waverider]

My partner has this push / pull thing going on with her mother at the moment. She has a need/obsession with calling her asking for her help/opinion, mentally, physically, and financially. Her mum who is old school and thinks mental illness is a lifestyle choice is very much a nuts and bolts fixer simply states do XYZ and stop being silly.

This is not what my partner wants to hear. So then she comes to me, her doctor, her councillors (her rescuers) stating her mum is a bully (persecutor) and trying to control her, and she doesn't want to talk to her again and wants her blocked from "pestering her". Then next day she calls her again... same, mums  bullying me ... .calls her next day... has a meltdown, denies calling mum, fibs saying mum is calling her... then again, now hiding the calls, only when I am not around or sneaky phone calls in the bedroom... .

May as well get up every morning and start the day by jamming you head in a meat grinder just because its there. Its almost become a form of self harm, while passing the blame for it on to her mum.

The more rescuers she has on hand, the greater the demand for a persecutor in order to maintain her identity as "the victim". Without being a victim she fears she will loose the rescuers. Fear of abandonment by her rescuers is fueling this cycle. Meanwhile all this "rescuing" is leaving her less functional and more dependent.

[lemon flower]

My fiancé's mother was horribly abusive to her.  Yet, somehow she has come to peace (mostly) with her mother (now deceased) and still villainizes her father.  I read that BPD can be brought on by childhood abandonment or trauma.  Her mother was certainly a source of trauma, but the abandonment seems to be mostly a father issue - her blaming him for her mother's abuse - because he left.  

just a thought on this, there might be another reason why she came to peace with mom and villainizes dad, I see the same happen with my BP: his biological dad died shortly after my friend was born and not much later his biological mom left him and now lives on the other side of the world, so they practicaly have no contact. He was adopted and raised by his aunt.

You'd think he'd blame his biological mom for leaving him when he was a baby but that doesn't seem to be the case. he prefers to villainise his aunt, which he still sees regularly and who is still looking after him, for all what went wrong in his life.  

My theory is that this is the result of the lack of object-constancy. when someone dies or lives far away this person becomes so unreal to the pwBPD that they no longer exist in their mind, while the person who is still in the running and still pops up in their life is the scapegoat.

[Grey Kitty]

She wants a loving father to guide her (something she feels she missed out on), yet claims her father is the ultimate control freak and can't stand him.

The only way to win that game is not to play. At least by her rules.

The role of proxy to give her what she needed from her father doesn't work for you as a partner.

The role of proxy for her to work through her anger at her father for her failures doesn't work for you as a partner.

It is really hard to be strong and aware and make sure you step back and let her cope with it herself, or with a T.

She also says she wants to be dominated during sex - something I am not comfortable with.  Yet she can't stand it when men are only interested in sex.

I don't really see a contradiction there. I've read a bit about kink, although I've not tried anything. Domination / submission play is probably different than what either of you think it is. If you were taking that dominant role, it wouldn't be about only having interest in your own pleasure and not caring about her. Your actions and statements might look like that, but your intentions would be different. You would be planning this out to give her the experience she wants.

Your next statement is critical. if you aren't comfortable with it, don't do it. (I'd add, if you reconsider... .learn how it works and how to do it well.)

... .and it reminds me of something I've seen in my r/s. Our pattern is for my wife to be the dominating/controlling one. I don't believe she wants it quite that way--I think she's afraid of being dominated/controlled... .and she also needs/wants me to display that strength and power. This struggle has played out in interesting ways... .and we've found a couple situations where the roles are reversed. (Sex isn't one) They were difficult to get into... .but felt good and healthy for both of us.

[waverider]

... .and it reminds me of something I've seen in my r/s. Our pattern is for my wife to be the dominating/controlling one. I don't believe she wants it quite that way--I think she's afraid of being dominated/controlled... .and she also needs/wants me to display that strength and power. This struggle has played out in interesting ways... .and we've found a couple situations where the roles are reversed. (Sex isn't one) They were difficult to get into... .but felt good and healthy for both of us.

I have seen that in a lot of RS's being the "control freak" is not always about wanting control it is about avoiding being controlled, or a fear of not being in control. This puts them in charge without the necessary skills to actually be in charge, and not naturally comfortable with it. Hence resenting you for putting them in that position of responsibility (because you are incapable in their eyes), even though they would not let you have control (projecting responsibilty for their self imposed burden onto you). Often results in acting like the martyr.

This is not just a BPD thing, but they are masters at it. Especially high functioning people as they the extra yards to stay on top, and resent it.