re-thinking the lessons & tools

[maxsterling]

The tools on this website certainly work.  But when I combine my own experiences and those described in the thread here, I'm starting to be reminded of one thing - the tools help us regain some control, help create some head space for us to make decisions about our r/s, help keep things calmer, and help protect ourselves. 

But the tools won't fix them.  My SO has had 30 years of people trying to set boundaries with her.  And yet she still has the behaviors that drive others away.  Validation?  I think my SO has had so much validation and people validating the invalid over the years that she now expects it.  SET?  I think she is wise to it.  Often she doesn't want someone to empathize with her because she views it as phony.  She is a very self aware pwBPD.  She knows her behavior is self-destructive, yet it continues.  I'm starting to re-think how I apply the tools here.

Regarding boundaries and abuse - I certainly don't want to be around it.  Yet, I am becoming numb to it.  I realize that leaving the house when she is raging makes things worse for her.  Trying to set that physical boundary doesn't teach her anything.  She's out of control, and the only good that does is let her rage on her own.  I recognize that if this r/s is going to last, I am going to need to do something different here.  Me enforcing the boundary seems to trigger abandonment/ptsd, and me trying to explain that I am only stepping out to gather myself is useless because she is so out of control and incapable of *any* rational thought. 

Validation - I need to be REAL careful not to validate the invalid.  Validation seems to be kind of a temporary fix in my r/s that really needs to be used in conjunction with a heap of understanding of what is going on.  Validate to quiet the fires so that I can gather more info.  I think improper validation can make things worse for the long term.  I think a few decades of her surrounding herself with people who validate that life sucks has taken a toll on her, and only reinforced in her brain that most people are evil and out to get her.   I think years of AA/NA didn't help to create a more positive view of life.  All that did was surround her with people whom validate her struggles with life and tell her the important thing is that she is sober, meanwhile validating that other destructive behaviors are normal.  I feel quite lost at how to validate without somehow reinforcing those negative views. 

SET - many times, she doesn't want anyone to empathize with her, because she claims nobody else can possibly understand what she is feeling.  She actually feels insulted if people empathize.  And the Truth part is a crap shoot.  I think this tool works best only when there is some kind truth that need to be stated, and the S & E help lessen the blow.  And S&E without a T are probably long-term destructive, and she seems well aware of that.

DEARMAN - parts of this seem to work okay, but parts don't.  She is very self-aware, and apparently aware of the tools on this website.  She's gotten into fights with trained therapists before.  She lashed out at our couples T the other day.  She is aware if people are trying to manipulate the conversation or the relationship.   It all boils down to emotion.  She feels a certain way, and that is the way it is.  And communication tools like DEARMAN or SET she sometimes sees as manipulative, because she tries using DEARMAN to manipulate (she uses DEARMA, because the Negotiate is lost!)

My feelings now - a good technique is to just listen, maintain eye contact, and stay present in the room.  She's got an emotion, she's going to rant about it (often in a very ugly way), and get it out of her system.  And only when things start to wind down a little can I approach and try and ask questions, address her concerns, or state my feelings.  Boundaries?  Well... .no reason to state them to her.  She will get out of control and cross them anyway.  Best thing her for me is to know when the line has been crossed and not be afraid to say NO or take protective actions.  Me setting any kind of boundary won't alter her behavior in a positive way one iota.  All it will do is lump me into the category with all the other people she knows in her life whom she claims don't care about her or her feelings.  I think it is best for me to just know what my limits/boundaries are and take action when they are crossed. 

One other thing that seems to be working, and she has confirmed that has helped, is to pay attention to when she is spiraling downward, and remind her to stay in the present.  So when her thoughts are racing in a bad place, I have said things like, "yes, those are definitely concerns, but right now I think it is important to stay focused on today."

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Jessica84]

Sounds like you are doing the best you can. Also sounds like she has adapted to the tools so now you need new ones. If she tells you something is working, that's a huge cue! The fact that you were able to hear it and apply it means you are paying attention, maybe because the tools are helping more than you think? At least they are helping with your reactions. Keep applying them. As long as you don't take any abuse (or tune it out so much you become a zombie), you're doing great!

One thing I definitely agree with, and see all the time, is that validating the invalid or saying you understand if you don't, doesn't work. Not on anyone, BPD or not.

[Mono No Aware]

The realization that we cannot fix BPD is hard.

This was my Radical Acceptance: that all I can do, even with maximum emotional skills and perfect application of our tools, is simply not make it worse.

I like your listening and making eye contact strategy. That applies to every human relationship, come to think of it.

[123Phoebe]

Hi Max, keep working the tools and lessons

Regarding boundaries and abuse - I certainly don't want to be around it.  Yet, I am becoming numb to it.  I realize that leaving the house when she is raging makes things worse for her.  Trying to set that physical boundary doesn't teach her anything.  She's out of control, and the only good that does is let her rage on her own.  I recognize that if this r/s is going to last, I am going to need to do something different here.  Me enforcing the boundary seems to trigger abandonment/ptsd, and me trying to explain that I am only stepping out to gather myself is useless because she is so out of control and incapable of *any* rational thought.  

Something to keep near and dear about boundaries, is that they are for you, for us.  They're not about teaching our partners anything other than we don't stick around for abuse.  Then *poof*, we're gone.  It's hard imagining them flailing around out of control, but then again... .are they?  Or is that our own spin we're putting on it?  When there's no audience to take it they have to self-soothe, we're not there to help them with it, it's not our place anyway.  It's in everyone's best interest to move out of the way.

Boundaries are our best friends.

If they do learn something from our boundaries, then we know they've learned it on their own and it gives us a whole new perspective of what our role in the relationship really is; where we stand.  On firmer ground, for sure!

[maxsterling]

The realization that we cannot fix BPD is hard.

Yes, but I think it is one of the things we must learn and accept in order to stop making things worse.   If we have any motivation for using the tools as a means to fix the pwBPD, we are probably going to make things worse.   And while I am good at intellectually knowing that, emotionally this is hard to detach from.  I still fall into the trap of "maybe if I changed my behavior, she would change hers."  I think our role is to support and love and take care of ourselves and quit making things worse.  the rest is up to them. 

When I really think about it, my SO has been in therapy fairly continuously since she was around 10.  And most of the issues she had at 10 she still has now, plus many more.  She's been through DBT, hospitalizations and medications.  Obviously, she's not capable of "learning" from her mistakes the same way others do.  I really need to stay focused on my role and make sure that is based on what I want and need rather than what she wants and needs.  Suppose she had some other disease, like cancer.  I can't cure the cancer, but I can have other roles in helping her manage the cancer.   

[ColdEthyl]

Max, there are days no amount of SET or validation works. But, at least with my pwBPD, they certainly have calmed a heck of a lot down. He also says no one can ever possibly understand how he feels. That's ok. I've changed the language. Instead of saying "I understand how you feel" because that will sometimes be a trigger since he feels like no one in the world has suffered as much, I changed it to saying, "I know I don't fully understand how you feel, but I do understand most of it, and I'm sorry you feel this way."

It's amazing to me how simple phrasing of a sentence will determine whether or not he's going to flip.

The boundaries are for you. In a dysregulated state recently, my husband grabbed my shirt and started tugging on me. Hasn't done that in years. I locked my eyes onto his and I said in a firm, loud voice "HEY! That is NO. We are not doing that, or I am going to LEAVE."

At first he started trying to verbally fight, bringing up times I put my hands on him (years ago, and I did. More than him.) I said yes, you are right I did that. I do not now, and neither of us will now.

After a minute he calmed down and apologized A LOT. I told him it was alright, we both have gone too far in the past, and we both need to be aware that we might cross lines again.

I'm a bit embarrassed to post this here, knowing domestic violence is wrong wrong wrong, yet I've done it. I've done it out of frustration way more than he has. But I hope the example helps you see that improvements can be made. I think with your wife, it's finding that right combination that makes her validated yet she doesn't feel patronized.

[ColdEthyl]

This is EXACTLY right. It's not about "changing" them. That cannot be done.

The realization that we cannot fix BPD is hard.

Yes, but I think it is one of the things we must learn and accept in order to stop making things worse.   If we have any motivation for using the tools as a means to fix the pwBPD, we are probably going to make things worse.   And while I am good at intellectually knowing that, emotionally this is hard to detach from.  I still fall into the trap of "maybe if I changed my behavior, she would change hers."  I think our role is to support and love and take care of ourselves and quit making things worse.  the rest is up to them. 

When I really think about it, my SO has been in therapy fairly continuously since she was around 10.  And most of the issues she had at 10 she still has now, plus many more.  She's been through DBT, hospitalizations and medications.  Obviously, she's not capable of "learning" from her mistakes the same way others do.  I really need to stay focused on my role and make sure that is based on what I want and need rather than what she wants and needs.  Suppose she had some other disease, like cancer.  I can't cure the cancer, but I can have other roles in helping her manage the cancer.   

[Grey Kitty]

I'm with Phoebe on boundaries.

1. They are for you. They protect you from her abuse. You can make them do this effectively.

And if you try to enforce them for any reason other than to protect yourself, they will morph into something entirely different.

2. Boundaries aren't negotiated. Boundaries aren't discussed. Boundaries aren't debated. (Actually that makes a great boundary!) They exist because of your values, what you believe is the right way to be treated, and what things are personally not negotiable for you.

Your SO will learn that you do enforce that boundary. She doesn't need to know why. She doesn't need to agree that you should be enforcing it. 

The harder, clearer, and cleaner your boundaries are, the better they work.

As for validation and SET. I think SET should be used only for truths enforced by the outside authorities or the laws of physics. (If you don't pay your insurance bill, your health insurance will be canceled), not by you. Don't use a truth like 'I will do X'

My take on validation is that it has a some chance of heading off dysregulation if used in an acute situation. No guarantees at all there. Also, a steady diet of validation turns down the overall temperature. Besides, it is a good habit to get in all the time, with everybody--we ALL like validation!

Max, take a look at one of the advanced tools: Radical Acceptance. You sound ready for it.