How to best respond to my wife sending me a naked picture of another woman

[formflier]

 

Agreed... the tricky part is that she claims... .for the most part... that I desire this and that... .want some other woman... or whatever.

So... I can't control what comes out of her mouth... .but I do control if I respond to it or not.

Probably will... bring this up in MC as something for us to discuss and agree on.

How possibly could she argue from a position that other women need to stay in our r/s.  Especially if I'm staying away from "who" brought them in.  In other words I want to focus on the future... .not re-litigate the past.

If the discussion devolves into something accusatory... .or... .who knows what... .I just need to make sure that I focus on that I want to be in a r/s with my wife... .period... .

When discussing my feelings lately... .we have had some success with getting her to "understand" my feelings.  That is much different that agreeing... .or disagreeing with the way I feel.

[Grey Kitty]

Agreed... the tricky part is that she claims... .for the most part... that I desire this and that... .want some other woman... or whatever.

Been there. Fought that battle. Actually the things my wife claimed I was thinking were usually not about desiring other women... .but she was claiming what I was thinking, and beating me up for it.

Not a problem any more. Simple boundary enforcement:

I will not argue with somebody about what *I* am thinking or what *I* am feeling. Those discussions end immediately if I am told what is inside my own head by somebody not living in it.

If I'm feeling gentle, happy, and not triggered and not taking it personally, I may say that she is entitled to ASK what I'm thinking, if she is curious.

I've very bluntly pointed out that a fight about what I'm thinking is unwinnable for both of us. She will never KNOW if I've stopped thinking something or not. And I can never convince her that I am (or am not) thinking something. Because she simply does not live in my head, and never will, and never can.

[formflier]

 

Yep... .GK... .I want to get to a place like that.

How do you implement this?  What did the first couple boundary enforcements look like?

Did this also entail "loaded questions"... .

"Since you think xyz... .then you are a abc... .and desire 123... ."

And then between xyz and abc and desire 123... .is logical... .IF that were true... .except... I never... .ever... .ever... .ever... .ever thought xyz.

[Grey Kitty]

I was "lucky" I got triggered when I was accused of thinking something... .which I wasn't.

It was easy and "natural" for me to shout ":)ON'T F***ING TELL ME WHAT I'M THINKING!" Not that I precisely recommend this for anybody else 

Bluntness worked for me

Other times I was just firm. "I won't have a discussion where you are telling me what I'm thinking or feeling."

A couple times I explained in detail how completely impossible it is for me to "win" this because she cannot actually read my mind and know that I've changed. And I'm sure she can't read my mind because the accusation wasn't valid in the first place!

I leave from circular arguments about what I'm doing wrong. After a couple accusations being defused and followed by different ones, I give up. Just like I would for verbal abuse.

Decide you can only lose by continuing a conversation. You know that kind. Then make sure you don't continue and lose!

[MissyM]

Other times I was just firm. "I won't have a discussion where you are telling me what I'm thinking or feeling."

For me it is similar. I say, "It is not up to you to decide how I feel or what I think."  It is a struggle for my dBPDh not decide what I am feeling but he is getting better at acknowledging that he is "making up" what I am feeling or thinking.

[formflier]

 

If I could somehow "use" the picture incident... to move the r/s in the direction of no more "theories" about what I think or want... that would be huge.

I'm still very interested in finding out the underlying thought or cause (other that BPD traits)... .as in what she was thinking/feeling... .

Over the past months we have made great strides forward... .not sure that I would say we had "gotten rid of" any issues... .but they are much better. 

I'm really not up for adding a new issue to the table... .so... .at the end of the day... .my hope is that naked pictures is a one time time.

[123Phoebe]

Do you foresee future naked pics becoming an issue if this isn't nipped in the bud right away?  Could this have been a one shot deal because of the subject matter involved; the realness of the picture because of no airbrushing and the thoughts and feelings your wife already expressed about it?

I really like what Grey Kitty said here:

If I could re-write your history (kinda like Groundhog Day), I'd suggest telling her that you have been attacked by her for your interest in other women too many times, and are overly sensitive and fearful about the subject. Explain your fears, and that you spent three four days worrying about what to do about this email because of it.

Make it about yourself and your feelings, not about her actions, or changing them.

I'm still very interested in finding out the underlying thought or cause (other that BPD traits)... .as in what she was thinking/feeling... .

She might be thinking something else entirely at this point.

This is your gig and your life, so of course do what you feel is the right thing to do for yourself and your marriage.

The best results I've gotten is when I've been completely honest about my feelings on a particular issue, like what Grey Kitty suggested.

Stand separately, while not attempting to change a thing about her    

[formflier]

 

I agree... .she need to understand (agreement is different) how I see things.

I think it is complete BS to yammer or for years about my desire for this woman and that woman and that I should have eyes only for her... that I should desire nobody else but her... .

And then send me someone else... .  I took the picture as sexual... .it looked good... .I was attracted... .airbrushed or not... .she had "the look" on her face... .

And... .she needs to understand the reality of the situation (as I see it)... .if she doesn't want me thinking about other women... .HUSH... .90% of the weird things I think about doing with other women... .are because she suggested... .accused... .asked... .

Sigh... .

But... .I see the point.  And I want to "understand" why she sent it... .I don't have to agree...

[KateCat]

Has any part of your wife's counseling given her basic self-soothing techniques yet? Concrete things she can do when she feels the urge to interrogate you about other women?

It could be too much to expect her to "just stop" at this point. 

[Grey Kitty]

I believe that desire and attraction is wired into humans. I don't believe it vanishes when a human gets into a r/s. There are always other hot girls/guys out there! The attraction is real, healthy, and natural. The way we react/respond to this attraction is the place where we can end up in a huge mess... .and that is the healthy issue to address, instead of trying to deny that the attraction exists, or pretend that we can control who we are attracted to, or even worse, who somebody else is attracted to!

Most likely your wife feels attraction to other guys (a conclusion I draw because she is human, and George Clooney exists ) and has no tools for coping with it except for projecting crap onto you so she can beat you up emotionally to avoid her own internal conflict.

FF, the best thing you can do for her is refuse to take that role. If you won't take one role in her internal conflict, it leaves her to sort it out for herself.

I think it is complete BS to yammer or for years about my desire for this woman and that woman and that I should have eyes only for her... that I should desire nobody else but her... .

Agreed. It is complete BS.

Look in the mirror. Your choice to listen to that crap for years was complete BS too.

[KateCat]

Word Up!

(I think of it as "mental illness" rather than "BS," though.)

[maxsterling]

This is a good discussion.   I can relate to the situation where the only "uncomfortableness" on your end is as a result of her baiting you.  I see that in my own situation and feel like I am walking a tightrope between being open enough so that I can have what I consider a normal, healthy conversation about sexual attraction and being so closed that she starts to assume things.  By assume, I mean if I don't agree that another woman is attractive or I don't express my feelings she will assume I am hiding them because I am somehow guilty. 

Your wife sounds like she has a different background than my fiancé.  My fiancé started showing the BPD traits at age 10 or so, has long been diagnosed and in treatment.  It sounds like your wife it's been only in recent years that things have started to get bad in this way. Nonetheless, I agree with the comment that this may be about her projecting her own emotions onto you.  That's definitely been my experience.

I've kinda concluded about my fiancé that she has zero grasp of how people can have restraint, morals, or standards.  Why?  Because in her past she did a hell of a lot of sleeping around, exhibited uncontrolled behavior, cheated, etc.  She's even admitted to me that in past relationships she almost always had a wandering eye and broke up after a few months in favor of someone new.  Even in regards to food, she doesn't understand how I can say "I'm full" and not eat any more.  We can have a huge meal where we both claim we are full.  Then half an hour later she is pulling out a snack and offering me some, to which I always reply, "no thank you, I'm full."  I don't think she understands that.  In other words, she doesn't understand how anyone else can possibly have restraint.  She has a friend who just got a divorce, and she doesn't understand why her friend is not out sleeping around.  After all, that's what she did. 

So maybe your wife is thinking along this line, "there are so many beautiful women out there, and I am so ugly and old.  I don't understand why he is not sleeping around.  He must be at least looking, there's no way he's not!  After all, if I was in his shoes and surrounded by so many beautiful women, I wouldn't be able to control myself!"  I don't think she knows what she wants in sending you that photo, because I don't think she knows what her own emotion is here.  She probably wants some kind of validation that you find the model attractive, but also validate that you only have eyes for her.  And that's impossible because what extreme she takes here is based upon her emotions and not on your response.  I agree that the ultimate solution for her is to not send you photos like that.  She created her own no-win trap whereby she can never be satisfied.  It's like the cliché question, ":)o I look fat in this dress?"  No reply to that question will satisfy her, and she's better off just learning to not ask that question.   

So maybe you can get to some kind of understanding with her that sending photos like that puts pressure on you and does no good for her or the r/s.  But I doubt she will stop the behavior.  Next wee you will probably get the ":)o I look fat in this... ." question.  And the week after that it will be, "do you think I am too needy... ."  Or some other question that is impossible to answer.

[formflier]

 

FOO background.  It is common in her family to "know" why people do things... ."it's so obvious"

So... most likely they are 90% correct... .but seem to have no concept that the 10% they could be wrong on ... .could devastate a r/s.

Her parents are still married... .her mom is dominant... .big time.  Dad is a nice guy... .but a rug.  Maybe as we get older she expects me to be a rug?  Not sure how this translates to women and photos.

Sister is divorced x 2.  Displays way more BPDish behavior than my wife ever did.

Her twin brother is recluse... .divorced x 1.  Mom did everything for him... .and now mom b___es that he has no ambition... won't do things for himself.  Sigh... .

More later on this... .keep the thoughts coming... .it's helping me organize mine... .

[KateCat]

I think your wife knows you well and injects specific elements of flattery into her approach to keep you engaged. (I thought that "snake woman" tale was a nice example.) All things you can do to pull away from this force-field are valuable, I think. And it's likely to take some time as this is a strong pattern.

[formflier]

I think your wife knows you well and injects specific elements of flattery into her approach to keep you engaged. (I thought that "snake woman" tale was a nice example.) All things you can do to pull away from this force-field are valuable, I think. And it's likely to take some time as this is a strong pattern.

Interesting... .I can see that... .I was well thought of enough to be called to "rescue" this woman.

Hmmm... .I have skills... .   

[KateCat]

Mad skills!

Damsel in distress; pastor impotent to help. Who ya gonna call?

[formflier]

 

So... I felt that last night I had to break the tension over this ... .or tension in general... .

She got mad because she thought I was calling her names.

Me thinking it was weird for my wife to send me a naked picture of another woman... .was the same as calling her weird...

So she dysregulated.

I should have used "troubling"  instead of weird.

Thoughts?

[123Phoebe]

I should have used "troubling"  instead of weird.

Thoughts?

I'm thinking that maybe had you approached it in the sense that you felt weird receiving a naked picture of another woman, it would have gone over a little more smoothly.

 

[formflier]

 

I agree... .and I think that is what I said... .definitely what I meant.

I know for a fact I did not say "You are weird for sending that... "

At this point... .no chance that I would remember exactly... .but yes... .making it about my feelings should have kept me a bit further from the fire... .

[Grey Kitty]

Did you handle the dysregulation well once it started?

I do not think it is possible to do enough work on yourself that your wife will NEVER dysregulate!

[formflier]

Did you handle the dysregulation well once it started?

I do not think it is possible to do enough work on yourself that your wife will NEVER dysregulate!

I stayed in bed... .didn't chase after her.  It was a bit worrisome to me... .because the noise an intensity of it... .was such that I haven't heard in months.

My overall comment is that she is way better... .we have longer periods of "normal"... .but... .BUT... .when it gets "troubling" (I'm going to get rid of weird from my vocabulary)... .it is more so.

And I don't think it's just my reaction... .I'm still in shock that she see's no issue with sending me a naked picture of a woman... .and believes that I should not have seen that as sexual... .yet a woman across a room can turn her head when we walk in... .and that means I want her... .and in fact have been doing things with her ?

[Grey Kitty]

... .I'm still in shock that she see's no issue with sending me a naked picture of a woman... .and believes that I should not have seen that as sexual... .yet a woman across a room can turn her head when we walk in... .and that means I want her... .and in fact have been doing things with her ?

Quick! Tell Logic Man to go back into the phone booth and put his street clothes back on! 

Her beliefs are not internally consistent. Don't try to make them be!

[formflier]

I think Logic Man... .in this case... .is more like the Hulk (shows up when I least want him to... .)... .rather than the phone booth guy.

try this line for size... .

":)on't make me logical... .you don't want to listen to my logic... .arrrgggghhhh... .arrrgggghhh... .ripping of clothes... .growling... ."

Best I could do on short notice... .

[Rapt Reader]

Here's something to think about, formflier.

When some weird thing happens with my Husband, and I just can't understand it or get over it or get it out of my mind, I want to discuss it with him until I finally feel that he "gets it" and will promise me that he will never do it again.

I've learned not to do that anymore. Leave it be, once he knows that I didn't like it, and I don't want him to do it again. By bringing it up periodically, he only gets angry and dysregulated, fuming that I "never get over anything" or that he "doesn't want to hear it anymore!" He just cannot really admit he made a mistake or was "wrong" 

It kills me to not be understood and validated by him, but I've found that once I let this stuff go, things are more peaceful, he is grateful for my letting it go, and he actually never does that offensive or "weird" thing again. Left to his own devices and thoughts, if I give the issue to the Universe he is appreciative and more warm towards me (the dysregulation goes away quicker and doesn't come back), and he never does it again. I got my wish, and I have learned to take that as his understanding me and validating me.

Could that be anything like your situation with your wife? I do know that every human being is different, and she isn't exactly like my Husband, but maybe this could help you? 

[formflier]

 

I can see similar things happening with my wife... .

I break it into two parts... .the exact thing... .and the "theory" behind the thing.

So... .a "theory" would be... .that I can read my husbands mind... .or other peoples mind... .

The "theory" that is somehow at work here... .is that other women are or "need to be involved" in our r/s.  My goal... .coming out of this... it not just that there are no more naked pictures... .but that I stop discussing other women... period.

So... .while I have a desire that she admit she should have known I would not want a naked picture... .my real goal is to just stop discussing other women.

Because... .in all seriousness... .the majority of the "weird" thoughts I have about other women... .are because my wife put them in my head.  My quality of life will jump immediately... .if that stops.

While I may never understand what my wife "gets" from dreaming up theories about me and other women... .I need to stop giving it... .and that could be interesting to experience... .

Thoughts on where I'm going with this?

Why now?  Well... .to me... .this was so over the top... .and I have been wanting to do this for a while... .so... .through MC... where we can all discuss and compromise ... I hope to have this outcome.

In other words... .it would be interesting to listen to why other women should continue to be involved in our r/s... .

[maxsterling]

My thoughts are still along the lines of Rapt Reader -

- Your wife has BPD.  Behavior such as this is par for the course.  Double standards.  Weird jealousies.  Stuff that makes no logical sense.  She always will have BPD, and that weird behavior will continue at least on some level.

- You can't change your wife's behavior.  People don't easily change, especially pwBPD.  There's no amount of explaining that will cause her to change.  Actually, the more you try and explain how this action hurt you, the less chance she will likely change.   The chances of her not bringing up other women again are pretty small, no matter what you say.

It's okay to bring up that you feel hurt and confused by this and that you wish it would not happen again.  Then it's time to move on.  She either hears you or she doesn't - and that is up to her, not you.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .I agree with your comments max.  But... .what happens if I stop listening or participating in the hurtful (or undesirable) behavior

Since we are still in therapy... still sorting out our "new" marriage... .this is something I want to push for.

But yeah... .chances of me saying no more women... and she actually doesn't bring them up... .about zero... .

I need to figure out what I'm going to do when she does... .

[waverider]

I am lucky I have managed to get the word "dysfunctional" into our vocabulary. I can actually tell her that I believe a particular behavior is dysfunctional and driven by the disorder as a kind of heads up that the disorder is coloring her judgement, and she takes it on board as protective advice rather than as a criticism.

I think this is because we have now separated the disorder from the person, almost as if there are now 3 entities in the relationship and we can project persecutor role onto to the disorder, leaving my partner the victim (which she likes) and me the rescuer.

If she is not the disorder then criticism due to the disorder are not taken as personally. She even asks me if a particular thing might be seen as dysfunctional. A bit like I am actually allowed to tell her that a particular dress makes her look fat without copping the fallout.

As far as accusations re other women go I went through this, but it has now flipped around to the point that she actually points them out, like another guy might. I can even joke about it. Asked where I have been, I can say down the mall checking out the hotties... .So things can change.

This may be a projection, in her old life she was anything but faithful. Now we are at a stage were she only has eyes for me, no other guy is a threat, mainly because I am the only person who has ever taken her issues seriously. As a result that standard of fidelity is projected on to me so she feels looking at anyone else poses no threat.

Its a mirror of where their own head is at.

[Grey Kitty]

First off, I suspect she won't be sending you more naked pictures of actresses. It isn't her normal pattern. I recommend you just drop this until at least the second time she sends you a naked picture of another woman. Don't get all wrapped around an axle that doesn't even exist!

Her fears of you being interested in other women, and the accusations and incidents that come from that? From what you say, that WILL be back. That's a real axle, go ahead and wrap yourself around it  

So what to do next time?

First, check if you are triggered, and if you are, excuse yourself and give yourself some time to recover.

Second, if you are OK, try to find something in this to validate.

[maxsterling]

I need to figure out what I'm going to do when she does... .

Oh absolutely I can relate here.  This future projection consumes me!  I spend so much energy trying to figure out what I am going to do next time she does XYZ.  It's not productive for me to live in that head space.  I'm not sure how to escape it, other than to work on my skills and trust myself to handle things appropriately when they happen again.