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MaroonLiquid
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« on: November 10, 2014, 09:19:41 PM »

As I said in the previous thread before it was locked, I think the "extinction burst theory" holds a lot of weight in this instance.  Also, I think she gets overwhelmed when she thinks about all the havoc she has created and it's easier to stay in her poopy diaper than to make changes.  My open enrollment on my insurance lasts until the 23rd and not sure what to do about them.  Told her I wasn't keeping them in if she wasn't working on the marriage in earnest.  Could keep them on without telling her and she can get her own.  I think she thinks I will anyway... .
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2014, 09:35:53 PM »

I was typing this as the thread was being locked. Fortunately you've got a new one for me to post in already!

I don't want a divorce.  I know I can't control what she does, but I do want her to start showing signs of making better choices and getting better.

Yes, you want your wife to get better. I sure do too. (Not just your wife, but mine as well Smiling (click to insert in post) )

What do you want that doesn't involve your wife?

What do you want if your wife gets worse instead of better?


My issue now is my open enrollment for insurance.  I told her that if we were working on our marriage (in earnest), I would keep her on, but that ends in the 23rd. Thinking about keeping her on and not telling her.

Baaaaaaad idea if this is an extinction burst.

If you "cave in" on something when you get the extinction burst, you are reinforcing that behavior. In other words, you are teaching her that if you are not giving her what she wants, what she's doing right now is a perfect way to get you to comply.

This would be intermittent reinforcement (what a slot machine does... .you pull the lever and sometimes it gives you a reward, but sometimes it doesn't. Our brains are wired to be very powerfully conditioned by this.)

In other words... .if you cave now, you will have to go through a LOT more next time you try to make a stand.

If you want to offer something... .ask her to transfer your car into just your name, return the keys, and give back your laptop. And say that you will put her on your insurance for a year if she does that. Your paperwork is due on the 23rd, so you need the title change submitted to the DMV and your laptop back before that.

If you like that deal... .and are OK with it even if she still wants no contact with you most of the time.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2014, 09:51:02 PM »

I was typing this as the thread was being locked. Fortunately you've got a new one for me to post in already!

I don't want a divorce.  I know I can't control what she does, but I do want her to start showing signs of making better choices and getting better.

Yes, you want your wife to get better. I sure do too. (Not just your wife, but mine as well Smiling (click to insert in post) )

What do you want that doesn't involve your wife?

What do you want if your wife gets worse instead of better?


My issue now is my open enrollment for insurance.  I told her that if we were working on our marriage (in earnest), I would keep her on, but that ends in the 23rd. Thinking about keeping her on and not telling her.

Baaaaaaad idea if this is an extinction burst.

If you "cave in" on something when you get the extinction burst, you are reinforcing that behavior. In other words, you are teaching her that if you are not giving her what she wants, what she's doing right now is a perfect way to get you to comply.

This would be intermittent reinforcement (what a slot machine does... .you pull the lever and sometimes it gives you a reward, but sometimes it doesn't. Our brains are wired to be very powerfully conditioned by this.)

In other words... .if you cave now, you will have to go through a LOT more next time you try to make a stand.

If you want to offer something... .ask her to transfer your car into just your name, return the keys, and give back your laptop. And say that you will put her on your insurance for a year if she does that. Your paperwork is due on the 23rd, so you need the title change submitted to the DMV and your laptop back before that.

If you like that deal... .and are OK with it even if she still wants no contact with you most of the time.

I understand what you are saying totally and don't want to reinforce bad behavior.  The problem with the vehicle issue is that the vehicles are financed so that wouldn't work.  Maybe I could come up with something else.  Laptop for sure... .  The main reason I wouldn't tell her is that she would have hers, and if God forbid she needed something major psychiatric wise, mine is the better insurance and would take care of it.  It is a tough decision. 
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« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2014, 10:48:55 PM »

 

What I like about GK's approach is it puts the ball in her corner... where she has to do something... .and that something is something that you want... .

Still... .I have a queasy feeling about you doing anything that looks like "caving".

Don't worry so much about the money and "possibilities"... .what if this... what if that.

Make a decision about the here and now... .and stick with it.

You can deal with 2nd and 3rd order consequences later... .

Be firm... .be resolute... .don't worry about being nice.

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2014, 06:37:34 AM »

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.
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« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2014, 06:48:08 AM »

 

My opinion is it was her "using" you.

I think others may have a different opinion.

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« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2014, 06:56:56 AM »

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

MaroonLiquid, talk to a lawyer, seriously.  Nothing that you've mentioned about your wife sounds loving coming from her side.  Sounds more hurtful, manipulative and (ab)using you. 

No matter how much we might want things to be different, until we start acting differently, in our own best interest... .nothing is going to change.  And sometimes we have to break out the big guns, i.e., the law.

Take care of you.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2014, 07:34:14 AM »

I really need to figure out why I have fear associated with talking to a lawyer about this.  I think it has more to do with the fact that it seems I'm moving toward something I don't want.  There is a little guilt associated with it as well.  Feel like I'm abandoning her, yet that is what she has done.  I shouldn't be fearful, and maybe showing her that I'm looking out for myself will be the very thing that gets her to turn.  I know that one thing she said to me the other night (during dysregulation about my phone) is that all I think about is myself.  Total projection... .I think a part of her can't stand the fact that I can move forward without her at times.  I'm not sure she knows what to do with that. 
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« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2014, 07:44:29 AM »

I really need to figure out why I have fear associated with talking to a lawyer about this.  I think it has more to do with the fact that it seems I'm moving toward something I don't want.  There is a little guilt associated with it as well.  Feel like I'm abandoning her, yet that is what she has done.  I shouldn't be fearful, and maybe showing her that I'm looking out for myself will be the very thing that gets her to turn.  I know that one thing she said to me the other night (during dysregulation about my phone) is that all I think about is myself.  Total projection... .I think a part of her can't stand the fact that I can move forward without her at times.  I'm not sure she knows what to do with that. 

I also realize that when she dysregulated, I didn't walk away when it got worse.  At first, we talked through her "stuff" and that's when she was "lucid" and there was emotional intimacy exchanged, and then the phone thing sent her over the edge and I "played" along with that.  Even after and told her I was wrong for getting the phone... .Boy, I still have a lot of work to do... .SOrry guys, just replaying some of this stuff over in my head.  I still get caught up in her "stuff" at times and realize that I am her "emotional outlet" one way or the other because she doesn't have anyone else probably.
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« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2014, 08:54:06 AM »

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

I think it is controlling.

More importantly, it is an unfair,  unenforceable, effectively worthless bargain.

Fair bargain: You do X forever and I do Y forever.

Fair bargain: You do X for one year (irrevocably) and I do Y for one year (irrevocably)

Fair bargain: You do X immediately and I do Y immediately

Fair bargain: You do something concrete and specific, and I do the same.

Fair bargain: You promise something emotional and ambiguous, where a knocked down fight over whether your actions actually met your agreement or not is possible... .and her part has the same ambiguity.

Bad: One part is immediate (and irrevocable); other part is ongoing, and can be stopped at any time.

Bad: One part specific and measurable, other part vague and seriously debatable about what compliance means.

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2014, 09:42:34 AM »

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

I think it is controlling.

More importantly, it is an unfair,  unenforceable, effectively worthless bargain.

Fair bargain: You do X forever and I do Y forever.

Fair bargain: You do X for one year (irrevocably) and I do Y for one year (irrevocably)

Fair bargain: You do X immediately and I do Y immediately

Fair bargain: You do something concrete and specific, and I do the same.

Fair bargain: You promise something emotional and ambiguous, where a knocked down fight over whether your actions actually met your agreement or not is possible... .and her part has the same ambiguity.

Bad: One part is immediate (and irrevocable); other part is ongoing, and can be stopped at any time.

Bad: One part specific and measurable, other part vague and seriously debatable about what compliance means.

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .
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« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2014, 10:00:45 AM »

 

That depends on the bargain... .whether she wins or not.

Don't make a bargain where you don't feel you have won.

If you don't get win win... .don't do it
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2014, 10:35:16 AM »

That depends on the bargain... .whether she wins or not.

Don't make a bargain where you don't feel you have won.

If you don't get win win... .don't do it

The problem with the insurance thing is, there is no win for me.  I do it and she doesn't have to do anything beyond the here and now but yet she will get hers for a year unless a divorce happens.
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« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2014, 11:18:26 AM »

 

Then... .don't do it.

If there is no win for you... .and that matters for you... .move along to the next issue.

Same for her... .if there is no "win" for her... .she will move along to the next issue.

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« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2014, 12:10:34 PM »

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  

No, that isn't my proposal for you.

I'm pointing out what kind of "bargains" are guaranteed to be complete failures before they are even proposed, by their very structure, and what sort of bargains could be proposed, and if agreed upon, acted on in a fair and reciprocal way.

My feeling is that if you put her on your health insurance, she will end up taking advantage of you, and you won't get anything you want from it.

Excerpt
How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .

I don't think a bargain will help your r/s with her.

You can choose to let her use you. You can choose not to let her use you.

I think it is healthier for you to choose not to be used.

I think that if you make that choice, your r/s will may not survive. However if you make that choice and your r/s does survive, it will be a better one.

I don't see good outcomes for your r/s (or at least your side of it!) if you do choose to let her use you.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2014, 12:14:31 PM »

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  

No, that isn't my proposal for you.

I'm pointing out what kind of "bargains" are guaranteed to be complete failures before they are even proposed, by their very structure, and what sort of bargains could be proposed, and if agreed upon, acted on in a fair and reciprocal way.

My feeling is that if you put her on your health insurance, she will end up taking advantage of you, and you won't get anything you want from it.

Excerpt
How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .

I don't think a bargain will help your r/s with her.

You can choose to let her use you. You can choose not to let her use you.

I think it is healthier for you to choose not to be used.

I think that if you make that choice, your r/s will may not survive. However if you make that choice and your r/s does survive, it will be a better one.

I don't see good outcomes for your r/s (or at least your side of it!) if you do choose to let her use you.

What choice are you talking about making where our r/s may not survive?  I will not let her use me anymore.  My line was when she took my car.  I love her, but doesn't mean I have to be a doormat, but I'm done with being used.
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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2014, 12:18:52 PM »

I'm curious to see how she goes about trying to make contact with me now that she has my car.  I think right now she is pissed because I got her sister involved and let them know she took my car.  I didn't text her back when she let me know she dropped the van at my apartment when I was renting a vehicle.  The only reason she did that was to make herself look better to her sister.

FF, you said in another thread that "things are never too far gone... ."  :)o you still feel that way in my case at this point?   Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2014, 12:21:02 PM »

The "bargain" I proposed (paying her insurance to get back your laptop and your car) was simply an example of a structurally enforceable bargain. I don't believe it is a good one for you, even if she accepts it.

You give her something that you don't have to give her. She gives back some things she stole from you.

This rewards her for stealing them. When somebody steals something, the appropriate recourse is that they are forced to return it AND pay a penalty, rather than being rewarded for returning what wasn't rightfully theirs in the first place!

A better bargain for you would be to pay her family's health insurance for one year, if she will sign a legal contract to grant you visitation (very specific terms, no latitude for her to arbitrarily refuse) to her children for that year.

And get a lawyer to confirm that this would be enforceable and write it up!
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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2014, 12:57:02 PM »

I hear ya GK... .That isn't a bad idea, but not sure she would go for it.  Too many things she has told the kids that aren't true that she would have to face... .She is all about keeping her fortress up around her and the kids... .DFence... .DFence

Don't mean to get too personal, but I'm really missing physical intimacy with my wife these last few days.  Really since that night last week when we were emotionally connecting right before she dysregulated.  It brought out desires I stuffed for 8 weeks.  Hard to believe that we haven't been intimate in two months.  The part of the disorder I HATE is it seems that she can't deal with her "crap" she's done, so she creates an event to put it on someone else (me).  The ridiculous thing is she can justify her taking three trips in four months and her bills not getting paid, but yet I get a new phone and back to the silent treatment... .  Im really venting these last few days because the more I try and learn about this, the less it seems I understand.
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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2014, 01:22:17 PM »

 

It is never... .ever... too far gone.

also... realize that you only have so much power.  You have to use that wisely... .but she still gets a choice.

She may not choose you.

Focus on GK advice.

I think you can limp the r/s along to a more dysfunctional state... .but it will last longer by caving in.

If you "hold"... .that may end it sooner... .or it may get to a better place sooner.

I see no chance of "caving"... .and getting to a better place

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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 01:42:56 PM »

Question: Is letting a wife and kids stay on the Health Insurance provided by the Husband's employer (since the couple is still legally married), especially when the Wife's Health Insurance is an inferior plan, considered "caving"?

Is there a place where conceding that such a consideration is just plain good sense, beneficial to the Wife and children, and an act of love and concern? Taking that bargaining chip out of the mix is a non-negotiable? Is an act of love and concern, showing the Wife that said Husband has a heart of gold and willingness to do a selfless, loving thing for his family, some sort of hindrance to the marriage working out in the end?

I understand the manipulations by the Wife regarding the laptop and car, and I don't agree with her making the Husband's life miserable regarding those things. I think she needs to get her act together and stop doing that kind of stuff, and I know that there are things the Husband has to do to try to accomplish that. The Health Insurance issue just seems different to me; the withholding of it seems to be able to reconfirm in the Wife's mind that said Husband is heartless, uncaring, a terrible father and human being, etc.

I understand the motives involved with using that as a flag at the top of the conquered hill, but it just seems to be a different struggle to me. Would the Husband want his Wife (that he wants to reconcile with) and children covered by the best Health Insurance plan, regardless of the strategic spot that would put him in, in this battle of wits? Or would he want to use this as a tactic for leverage? This conundrum seriously taxes my thinking; isn't there a way to provide the Health Insurance in a way that helps the relationship and family, without making it a "win for her; lose for him" proposition?

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 01:53:55 PM »

I was in the same boat initially with you as well Rapt... .My counter to that is had the other stuff not been taken from me, I might be in a different place about it.  It is hard for me to give that to her after all this especially if it is an extinction burst.  I'm only getting something from her when she needs something it seems.  Yes, we did have a moment, but was immediatley stolen by a dysregulation and taking my car.  At what point is enough enough?  I hate the stalemate also...
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« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 01:57:27 PM »

Her insurance costs her 600 a month with a huge deductible for each of them.  My question, is this like everything else for months and about what is easier on her financially?  She can afford to go on trips, go shopping, but not take car of her car registration all with the last four months.  I'm looking at her pattern of behavior.  She chose to be separated.  I didn't.  She wanted me to take them off my insurance at first (divorce threat from her) until she found out how much it cost.
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« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 02:04:10 PM »

 

There is a legitimate point of view that Rapt Reader brings up.

Ultimately (i think) it comes down to where do you draw the line... .

If not health insurance... .where?  

And... with the recent history of "proving" that he is nice guy... .handed over car keys... .got wife out of fix... .etc etc... .and see how that moved the family towards reconciliation.

If we "knew" how she was really thinking... .I would be all for this.  But ultimately... .it's a best guess.

It's just as likely... .IMO... .that if he had given her health insurance... .that she would have thought... ."well... he should have done that anyway... .so it doesn't count to "prove" his love to me"

Note:  I've been through that... .so... .I'm a bit jaded to that thinking.   Or... .doing something that she asked... and after it was over... .I get no credit... because she had to ask.  Sigh... .

Hmmm.

Maroon,

How much better is your health insurance plan?  

Are we talking about a $10 better co pay?  Even it the difference in plans is "thousands" of dollars... .then I would stick to my advice.

If the difference in plans it that one covers major illnesses... .and the other provides no coverage at all... .maybe... .maybe I would think differently.

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« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 02:13:48 PM »

There is a legitimate point of view that Rapt Reader brings up.

Ultimately (i think) it comes down to where do you draw the line... .

If not health insurance... .where?  

And... with the recent history of "proving" that he is nice guy... .handed over car keys... .got wife out of fix... .etc etc... .and see how that moved the family towards reconciliation.

If we "knew" how she was really thinking... .I would be all for this.  But ultimately... .it's a best guess.

It's just as likely... .IMO... .that if he had given her health insurance... .that she would have thought... ."well... he should have done that anyway... .so it doesn't count to "prove" his love to me"

Note:  I've been through that... .so... .I'm a bit jaded to that thinking.   Or... .doing something that she asked... and after it was over... .I get no credit... because she had to ask.  Sigh... .

Hmmm.

Maroon,

How much better is your health insurance plan?  

Are we talking about a $10 better co pay?  Even it the difference in plans is "thousands" of dollars... .then I would stick to my advice.

If the difference in plans it that one covers major illnesses... .and the other provides no coverage at all... .maybe... .maybe I would think differently.

Mine is an EPO with $20 copay and that covers any in-network doctor (no referrals), hospital (copay covers entire bill: my youngest son's entire bill when he was born was the $20 copay which included prenatal care!) or ER visit, covers all pre-existing conditions and no more than $30 for scripts (most $20 or less).  I pay $700 dollars a month for it, but with six kids and several including me on meds monthly... .It is awesome... .

Hers is an 80-20 PPO at $600 a month, $1500 deductible per person $4500 for family, and after deductible met, $30 copay and $30 scripts.

Again, my stance here is, when she separated (and yes, I forgive her), these are things she didn't think about nor take into consideration.  She can't do whatever she wants and there be no consequence for it.  I'm not saying I'm not open to keeping them on, but as other times, it seems to me this is purely money driven by her.  Yes she has three kids, and they are expensive, but if I wasn't in the picture (which it seems she doesn't want me in it, of course, only an observation), she would be stuck with this... .
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« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 02:33:16 PM »

 

So... .this is about $4500... correct?  After she pays that... .the deductible is met and she has really awesome coverage... .on her plan?

Any idea how much she spent on vacations?  I wouldn't "toss that in her face"... .but my guess is that it is close to $4500.

Maroon,

On the one hand... .I am reluctant to "tell you what to do"... .dealing with BPD traits is complex. 

There are legitimate points of view to just about any course of action that we have talked about

I hate this for you... .I really do.  If I saw just about any "give" on her side... I would probably be pushing you to keep that goo momentum going... .

But... .what I seem to be seeing is her continuing to be needier and needier... .


Man... .please make sure you are talking this over with your IC as well as on this board.

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« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 02:37:31 PM »

So... .this is about $4500... correct?  After she pays that... .the deductible is met and she has really awesome coverage... .on her plan?

Any idea how much she spent on vacations?  I wouldn't "toss that in her face"... .but my guess is that it is close to $4500.

Maroon,

On the one hand... .I am reluctant to "tell you what to do"... .dealing with BPD traits is complex.  

There are legitimate points of view to just about any course of action that we have talked about

I hate this for you... .I really do.  If I saw just about any "give" on her side... I would probably be pushing you to keep that goo momentum going... .

But... .what I seem to be seeing is her continuing to be needier and needier... .


Man... .please make sure you are talking this over with your IC as well as on this board.

You see "good momentum"?  Or was that a hypothetical... .And where does the "needier and needier" thing come from?
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« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2014, 03:21:38 PM »

 

Hypothetical... .if I saw momentum...

Needier and needier... .as in she takes more... .and needs more... .so she takes more... .

Wasn't satisfied with the laptop... .so she took a car... .what's next?

Might not have been the best posting style... .kinda thinking out loud.
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« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2014, 10:11:01 PM »

I hear ya GK... .That isn't a bad idea, but not sure she would go for it. 

If you are sure she wouldn't think of doing it... .don't bother. Lawyers aren't free even to consult.

If you aren't sure... .but if it is something that YOU want, it is worth asking.

Aside... .if you had a solid legal agreement from her to give you visitation time with her kids... .that might be a very helpful precident for something similar in the case of a divorce... .Dunno there... .

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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2014, 05:47:10 AM »

 

Hmmm... .thinking more about GK idea. 

This makes it about the kids... .not about her.  If the insurance is "for the kids"... .and the visitation agreement is "for the kids"... that seems to be win win.

It at least would seem to prove that you are family guy... .that you care about family... .values... .etc etc... .

If there is a thought in her head that you are "controlling" her... .this may steer away from that.  Since it is about the kids.

My recommendation... .if this is something you are interested in... .  BIG IF... .  Don't ask her... .ask lawyer first.  If lawyer says this is enforceable... .then get it drawn up.

Then present it... .

we have seen how many time she has changed her mind... .is why I'm thinking this.  Counseling... .yes... .then... counseling no... etc etc

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« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2014, 08:32:45 AM »

I'll be honest.  I would love to have a relationship with them, but (I hate putting that word here because it makes it seem as if what I said prior is irrelevant, but it isn't) herein lies my problem.  I truly feel I am at a crossroads with her as far as showing her what I will  accept and allow in my life.  She knows I love the kids, but she also knows she has cut me out of their life.  She has to live with that.  The other night when she dysregulated (excuse was my new cell phone), she made several statements that speak volumes about where she is right now.  The first was that, "My issues run deeper than I ever thought", "The kids are starting to show some difficult issues" and, "You never contact the kids". 

     When she mentioned her issues, I told her that I understand how difficult that is and that I realized mine months ago and that is a difficult realization to come to.  I assured her that when she found a counselor to help her that I would be there.  She just cried.

     When talking about the kids issues, she mentioned that D12 is extremely bossy, D16 is withdrawn, and S17 is aggressively angry.  We on this board know this is mostly fallout from her issues, but also the havoc she has caused and continues to.  I told her that by seeing us work on our issues and healing ourselves and the marriage, that would speak volumes to them and give them security.  I told her that we could get them back in counseling also and that they would get through it.

     I reminded her of what she asked of me several times during this separation (always during a dysregulation).  I said to her, "You asked me not to contact you, the kids or your family and to leave y'all alone.  I told her that I honored that request each time because I will not do something that makes me look as if I'm crazy or a stalker and know that this is especially difficult on them.  I'm showing that I have the integrity to honor what you ask, and that if that isn't what you want, then you need to say exactly what you mean.  The times I have contacted them, they haven't responded and that is ok, I just wanted them to know I am there."  She was crying and said that she appreciated it and understood why.  She said she wanted to show the kids that with God, two people who really love each other can admit their issues, work on them, and still work out.  I told her I agreed.

     I sent her flowers for her birthday (ordered before she dysregulated and got there the night before her birthday, 2 days after her dysregulation and taking my car) and didn't let me know they came, or say thank you.  I wasn't expecting her to and that wasn't the reason I did it.  She posted a picture of the flowers S17 bought for her on Facebook and posted, "He's still my #1 guy".     I didn't contact her on her birthday due to the car situation and because I sent her flowers.  I'm not making excuses, but she is pissed at me right now.  I believe it's because I included her sister on the text about the vehicle (done hiding, done being a victim and done covering her sins) and when she tried to turn it around on me asking about health insurance, I responded, "As I've said for weeks, I would love to keep y'all on if/when she is willing to work on the marriage/reconciliation and not act as if she is single."  I texted her last night to see if she had a moment to talk as I was going to talk with her legitimately about the insurance stuff.  No response.  Honestly, I'm glad as I was feeling weak last night and missed her.  As controlling as she has been, she would probably see this as a way to "get to her", or just flat out say no.  The counselor I met with last week said that due to the narcissism in her, the nicer I am, the more she will take advantage of me.  This is all about control.  I also believe she is overwhelmed by several things: the fact that I am way more independent than I ever showed before/she ever thought I would be, I have changed in my behavior towards her and don't react negatively hardly at all anymore, the kids are having problems and she just gets worse.  One thing that has come out of her mouth like two months ago that I'm looking at about myself was, "You care more about the relationship than you do yourself."  She was right.  I'm almost to the point that to protect my kids, my love for her and I, I'm thinking about sending a "stepping away" letter.  That she needs to decide what it is she wants, gets help for her own issues.  Then if it's me she decides she wants when that happens and I'm still here, then great.  But I won't promise anything.  But I can't do this push/pull much longer and have hope in her 10-15 minutes of lucidity and then dysregulate over something stupid.  It's time she get help.  She recognizes her stuff, and it's time she step out and as she tells me, "Man Up". 

     She just texted me and said, "What do you need?"
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« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2014, 09:41:48 AM »

If you want time with her kids... .tell her that. No harm there. (Agree w/ FF: Don't tip your hand 'till a lawyer says that this is possible to enforce!)

You sound like you don't know quite what you want... .I'll put some words into your mouth... .see how they fit, and if they do, make some of them your own:

You don't want the kind of r/s you had with her pre-separation.

You want some sort of idealized/fantasy r/s with her that she may not even be capable of. Either something you once had, or something you once thought you had when you were painted white.

You don't want to be abused and taken advantage of by her.

You aren't sure when to give up on the r/s completely.




That is pretty ambiguous, and any outcome is uncertain. (Except for a choice you make not to accept abuse, stealing, etc.)

If you have clear simple things you value and want with her kids... .that actually have nothing to do with her... .that may be a better place to focus your energies for now.

Time can help you resolve the ambiguity.
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« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2014, 09:59:33 AM »

If you want time with her kids... .tell her that. No harm there. (Agree w/ FF: Don't tip your hand 'till a lawyer says that this is possible to enforce!)

You sound like you don't know quite what you want... .I'll put some words into your mouth... .see how they fit, and if they do, make some of them your own:

You don't want the kind of r/s you had with her pre-separation.

You want some sort of idealized/fantasy r/s with her that she may not even be capable of. Either something you once had, or something you once thought you had when you were painted white.

You don't want to be abused and taken advantage of by her.

You aren't sure when to give up on the r/s completely.

These are very true.  Especially 1, 3 and 4.  The second one, is somewhat true.  I want what I know we had and I think you are right when you say she isn't capable of it right now.  How do I handle that with her and letting her know I'm not pressuring her but at the same time not wait around forever?
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« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2014, 10:05:45 AM »

My suggestion is just stop talking to her about the future of your r/s for now.

Has anything good come of those discussions yet?

... .discuss something you care about, and know what you want, like her kids.
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« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2014, 10:07:34 AM »

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.
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« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2014, 10:13:12 AM »

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.

She is the one that brought it up last week when she dysregulated... .Either way I'm screwed there... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2014, 10:55:32 AM »

* I'm not suggesting that you refuse to talk about your r/s with her... .if she brings it up.

So I called her.  I told her that I realize that at times I have used the insurance thing as a way to manipulate her into doing what I want her to do and asked for her forgiveness.  She said she forgives me.  I asked if we could discuss the insurance issue and she said it is a done deal and that she already got it through her company.  I said ok, I would like to start spending some time with the kids as I miss them.  She said she was filing for divorce as fundamental things (trust in me  , etc) in a marriage aren't there.  And my phone was the perfect example of that.  I told her I was sorry she felt that way (did not defend myself) and that she has the right to go that route if she so chooses and that I believed that Wednesday we got somewhere.  She said, "We did, but I have the right to choose my own path , I won't go around this merry go round anymore with you"  I said ok... .I was sorry she felt that way but that she was going to have to do it if thats what she wants.  She said she has already drafted a "first draft", said to let her know by Friday what I wanted (here we go again  ) so she could finalize the paperwork.  I said, "Ok" and she said, "I have to go" and hung up.  WTH?  So no matter what I make it, she ends it in a fight.
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« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2014, 11:22:58 AM »

You did a good job of not biting on the bait she threw at you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Unless you are ready to file for divorce... .don't send her a draft of anything.

Her "I want a divorce" doesn't mean anything until she sends you legal papers.
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« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2014, 11:44:34 AM »

You did a good job of not biting on the bait she threw at you.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Unless you are ready to file for divorce... .don't send her a draft of anything.

Her "I want a divorce" doesn't mean anything until she sends you legal papers.

One thing in the conversation she started throwing around was projection.  She said, "Your deceitful, you try and hide things, you have no integrity, blah, blah, blah... ."  I responded with I'm sorry you feel that way.  The hilarious thing is, I could look at it as she set the whole thing up with the vehicle to have the better one and file for divorce!  And I'm deceitful!  Smiling (click to insert in post)  She also asked, ":)o I need to have you served or will you sign the papers".  I said I won't fight you if that is what you truly want.  I realize now that the Lord led me to call to flush out this crap.  I'm not scared anymore... .Honestly... .I find it funny now... .
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« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2014, 12:01:39 PM »

 

Be careul saying things like "OK" around divorce talk... .that is my only coaching comment.

I think you bore up under that well.

I know that is not the conversation you wanted to have with her... .hang in there... .  

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« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2014, 12:07:11 PM »

Be careul saying things like "OK" around divorce talk... .that is my only coaching comment.

I think you bore up under that well.

I know that is not the conversation you wanted to have with her... .hang in there... .  

What do you mean "bore up"?  I realize now the last two times (including today) I have had this "divorce conversation" with her, the Lord has let me deal with all the emotion the day before to help me stay calm in the moment with her.  My pastor thinks she wanted to hear the validating thing of "I'm standing for the marriage" that I have always said (and still am), because it makes her feel better about what she has done and knows that I'll be there no matter what.  That made a lot of sense, but made sure I did not do that this time.  She needs to start addressing that I have my limit... .
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« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2014, 12:12:18 PM »

 

Bore up... ."held up"... .did well with it
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« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2014, 12:13:21 PM »

Bore up... ."held up"... .did well with it

Ok, the last time she brought up divorce with me was when she stole my laptop... .
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« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2014, 12:20:33 PM »



Might want to inventory your possessions again!   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

 
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« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2014, 12:20:59 PM »

Might want to inventory your possessions again!   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

 

Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)  That was funny... .
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« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2014, 12:21:18 PM »



Please go do something fun today... .just for you... .

Let us know what that was... .

Hang in there Maroon
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« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2014, 10:27:36 PM »

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife to dysregulate and end up justifying taking my car... .I'm not concerned about it, but trying to figure that out.  It's not rational so maybe I wont... .
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« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2014, 06:56:29 AM »

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife

It represents you being separate from her, doing something that she doesn't match her desires or plans for you. Which she cannot understand.

Or it represents you going farther away from her. She is used to controlling the push-pull. She keeps your distance at the level she finds comfortable. If you move farther away, she wants to yank you back in.

Or both.

Excerpt
to dysregulate and end up justifying taking my car... .I'm not concerned about it, but trying to figure that out.  It's not rational so maybe I wont... .

Understanding why she chooses to dysregulate in a particular way is pointless.

A friend of mine says "There's no cheese at the end of that maze."
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« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2014, 07:32:58 AM »

I have a question... .I'm curious as to why my new cell phone was a trigger for my wife

It represents you being separate from her, doing something that she doesn't match her desires or plans for you. Which she cannot understand.

Or it represents you going farther away from her. She is used to controlling the push-pull. She keeps your distance at the level she finds comfortable. If you move farther away, she wants to yank you back in.

Or both.

That is completely narcissistic but makes complete sense.  It is almost like she wants me to have nothing (taking my laptop, car) and make me believe I can't do things on my own or would fail without her (She also believes that and reality isn't kind for her right now).  She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?     
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« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2014, 12:40:50 PM »

So I'm trying to understand why I'm feeling a little fear/guilt today.  Is that FOG from the conversation with her yesterday when she tried to bait me with divorce?  I almost feel like I invalidated her when she told me the basic building blocks of a marriage (trust, etc) between us aren't there and I said, "I'm sorry you feel that way."  The thing is, that is projection on her part.  I have done everything I can to put her first these last four months and don't know how to validate that from her when it is obvious it isn't the truth.
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« Reply #50 on: November 13, 2014, 02:50:03 PM »

She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?     

Good question. My answer: NOPE.

This *might* cause her to realize she needs some kind of help. Or not.

I put the chances of making her decide to "move on" at .00001%. Don't expect any sort of clean closure from her side of the table. If you want to move on, you have to make that decision.

I'm in the same hot seat with you. 
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« Reply #51 on: November 13, 2014, 02:57:09 PM »

She can't stand the fact that I'm stable, seem happy in spite of the circumstances and she is anything but in both categories and knows it.  Is this what causes them to "wake up and realize they need help" or "move on"?      

Good question. My answer: NOPE.

This *might* cause her to realize she needs some kind of help. Or not.

I put the chances of making her decide to "move on" at .00001%. Don't expect any sort of clean closure from her side of the table. If you want to move on, you have to make that decision.

I'm in the same hot seat with you.  

I don't want to "move on" at this point, but want her to get help and work on the marriage... .I know she said she "wants a divorce", but think that is push/pull with her history, but may be wrong.
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« Reply #52 on: November 13, 2014, 05:17:08 PM »

Maroon Liquid, I'm not trying to suggest you do move on, or that you are ready to.

I'm saying she is almost certain to use divorce threats as another push-pull move, and very unlikely to move on in a clean way. Here is YOUR menu of choices:

1. Move on.

2. Put up with her attempting to play push-pull games with you.

3. Wait for her to get help... .This looks suspiciously like option #2

4. Wait for her to move on... .This looks suspiciously like option #2

There is some range within option #2. How you take care of yourself, and how you respond. Not chasing her does take some of the her satisfaction out of running away, which could tone things down... .eventually.
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« Reply #53 on: November 13, 2014, 05:23:28 PM »

  "I'm sorry you feel that way." 

I don't think this invalidated... that was a safe response... also honest.

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« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2014, 07:35:06 AM »

So with having my kids this weekend, I'm expecting an "event" from my wife.  She usually tries to start stuff on the weekends with them I guess because it isn't about her or her kids (again, her fault).  The funny thing is, all the stuff she has belittled me with, [not taking responsibility for my kids (now I see that as projection from her childhood and her ex), not being responsible, and not "manning up", can't make it on my own], she is now seeing herself as not true, even though she still tries and hits me with it.  The sad thing is, she told me last week she really misses my kids, but then dysregulates and ignores them.  They really miss her, but with the state she has been in, it's probably a good thing right now.
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« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2014, 08:52:06 AM »

Also, my wife completely went off on someone she doesn't even know on Facebook yesterday and tagged our daughter.  Some man asked our daughter (in a derogetory tone according to her) something at a choir concert about "lettering in choir" as a freshman last year.  I guess he made it sound nerdy or something and my wife went into a "full on rant post"  addressed to, "The man who approached my daughter" calling him a coward, outdated, and judgemental.  She called him a coward because he did it without my wife present and how he awoke the "momma bear" in her and he needs to be taught about "manners and passion"... .Geez, I know the guy wasn't right, but you are going to air it on Facebook to someone who can't even read it?  And to call someone else out about manners?     Smiling (click to insert in post)  It's hard not to look at this stuff now and not see it for what it is and realize she has to take her "crap" out on someone. 
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« Reply #56 on: November 14, 2014, 11:17:07 AM »

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This thread has been closed, because it has reached its post limit. It is a worthwhile topic, and you may start another thread to continue the conversation if you would like.

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Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

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Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



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