Hard day Cont'd 5...

[Depression = 72% of members]

As I said in the previous thread before it was locked, I think the "extinction burst theory" holds a lot of weight in this instance.  Also, I think she gets overwhelmed when she thinks about all the havoc she has created and it's easier to stay in her poopy diaper than to make changes.  My open enrollment on my insurance lasts until the 23rd and not sure what to do about them.  Told her I wasn't keeping them in if she wasn't working on the marriage in earnest.  Could keep them on without telling her and she can get her own.  I think she thinks I will anyway... .

[MaroonLiquid]

As I said in the previous thread before it was locked, I think the "extinction burst theory" holds a lot of weight in this instance.  Also, I think she gets overwhelmed when she thinks about all the havoc she has created and it's easier to stay in her poopy diaper than to make changes.  My open enrollment on my insurance lasts until the 23rd and not sure what to do about them.  Told her I wasn't keeping them in if she wasn't working on the marriage in earnest.  Could keep them on without telling her and she can get her own.  I think she thinks I will anyway... .

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

I was typing this as the thread was being locked. Fortunately you've got a new one for me to post in already!

I don't want a divorce.  I know I can't control what she does, but I do want her to start showing signs of making better choices and getting better.

Yes, you want your wife to get better. I sure do too. (Not just your wife, but mine as well )

What do you want that doesn't involve your wife?

What do you want if your wife gets worse instead of better?

My issue now is my open enrollment for insurance.  I told her that if we were working on our marriage (in earnest), I would keep her on, but that ends in the 23rd. Thinking about keeping her on and not telling her.

Baaaaaaad idea if this is an extinction burst.

If you "cave in" on something when you get the extinction burst, you are reinforcing that behavior. In other words, you are teaching her that if you are not giving her what she wants, what she's doing right now is a perfect way to get you to comply.

This would be intermittent reinforcement (what a slot machine does... .you pull the lever and sometimes it gives you a reward, but sometimes it doesn't. Our brains are wired to be very powerfully conditioned by this.)

In other words... .if you cave now, you will have to go through a LOT more next time you try to make a stand.

If you want to offer something... .ask her to transfer your car into just your name, return the keys, and give back your laptop. And say that you will put her on your insurance for a year if she does that. Your paperwork is due on the 23rd, so you need the title change submitted to the DMV and your laptop back before that.

If you like that deal... .and are OK with it even if she still wants no contact with you most of the time.

[MaroonLiquid]

I was typing this as the thread was being locked. Fortunately you've got a new one for me to post in already!

I don't want a divorce.  I know I can't control what she does, but I do want her to start showing signs of making better choices and getting better.

Yes, you want your wife to get better. I sure do too. (Not just your wife, but mine as well )

What do you want that doesn't involve your wife?

What do you want if your wife gets worse instead of better?

My issue now is my open enrollment for insurance.  I told her that if we were working on our marriage (in earnest), I would keep her on, but that ends in the 23rd. Thinking about keeping her on and not telling her.

Baaaaaaad idea if this is an extinction burst.

If you "cave in" on something when you get the extinction burst, you are reinforcing that behavior. In other words, you are teaching her that if you are not giving her what she wants, what she's doing right now is a perfect way to get you to comply.

This would be intermittent reinforcement (what a slot machine does... .you pull the lever and sometimes it gives you a reward, but sometimes it doesn't. Our brains are wired to be very powerfully conditioned by this.)

In other words... .if you cave now, you will have to go through a LOT more next time you try to make a stand.

If you want to offer something... .ask her to transfer your car into just your name, return the keys, and give back your laptop. And say that you will put her on your insurance for a year if she does that. Your paperwork is due on the 23rd, so you need the title change submitted to the DMV and your laptop back before that.

If you like that deal... .and are OK with it even if she still wants no contact with you most of the time.

I understand what you are saying totally and don't want to reinforce bad behavior.  The problem with the vehicle issue is that the vehicles are financed so that wouldn't work.  Maybe I could come up with something else.  Laptop for sure... .  The main reason I wouldn't tell her is that she would have hers, and if God forbid she needed something major psychiatric wise, mine is the better insurance and would take care of it.  It is a tough decision. 

[formflier]

 

What I like about GK's approach is it puts the ball in her corner... where she has to do something... .and that something is something that you want... .

Still... .I have a queasy feeling about you doing anything that looks like "caving".

Don't worry so much about the money and "possibilities"... .what if this... what if that.

Make a decision about the here and now... .and stick with it.

You can deal with 2nd and 3rd order consequences later... .

Be firm... .be resolute... .don't worry about being nice.

[MaroonLiquid]

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

[formflier]

 

My opinion is it was her "using" you.

I think others may have a different opinion.

[123Phoebe]

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

MaroonLiquid, talk to a lawyer, seriously.  Nothing that you've mentioned about your wife sounds loving coming from her side.  Sounds more hurtful, manipulative and (ab)using you. 

No matter how much we might want things to be different, until we start acting differently, in our own best interest... .nothing is going to change.  And sometimes we have to break out the big guns, i.e., the law.

Take care of you.

[MaroonLiquid]

I really need to figure out why I have fear associated with talking to a lawyer about this.  I think it has more to do with the fact that it seems I'm moving toward something I don't want.  There is a little guilt associated with it as well.  Feel like I'm abandoning her, yet that is what she has done.  I shouldn't be fearful, and maybe showing her that I'm looking out for myself will be the very thing that gets her to turn.  I know that one thing she said to me the other night (during dysregulation about my phone) is that all I think about is myself.  Total projection... .I think a part of her can't stand the fact that I can move forward without her at times.  I'm not sure she knows what to do with that. 

[MaroonLiquid]

I really need to figure out why I have fear associated with talking to a lawyer about this.  I think it has more to do with the fact that it seems I'm moving toward something I don't want.  There is a little guilt associated with it as well.  Feel like I'm abandoning her, yet that is what she has done.  I shouldn't be fearful, and maybe showing her that I'm looking out for myself will be the very thing that gets her to turn.  I know that one thing she said to me the other night (during dysregulation about my phone) is that all I think about is myself.  Total projection... .I think a part of her can't stand the fact that I can move forward without her at times.  I'm not sure she knows what to do with that. 

I also realize that when she dysregulated, I didn't walk away when it got worse.  At first, we talked through her "stuff" and that's when she was "lucid" and there was emotional intimacy exchanged, and then the phone thing sent her over the edge and I "played" along with that.  Even after and told her I was wrong for getting the phone... .Boy, I still have a lot of work to do... .SOrry guys, just replaying some of this stuff over in my head.  I still get caught up in her "stuff" at times and realize that I am her "emotional outlet" one way or the other because she doesn't have anyone else probably.

[Grey Kitty]

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

I think it is controlling.

More importantly, it is an unfair,  unenforceable, effectively worthless bargain.

Fair bargain: You do X forever and I do Y forever.

Fair bargain: You do X for one year (irrevocably) and I do Y for one year (irrevocably)

Fair bargain: You do X immediately and I do Y immediately

Fair bargain: You do something concrete and specific, and I do the same.

Fair bargain: You promise something emotional and ambiguous, where a knocked down fight over whether your actions actually met your agreement or not is possible... .and her part has the same ambiguity.

Bad: One part is immediate (and irrevocable); other part is ongoing, and can be stopped at any time.

Bad: One part specific and measurable, other part vague and seriously debatable about what compliance means.

[MaroonLiquid]

So, do you think my initial stipulation of her being on my insurance was her actually working on the marriage wrong or controlling?  I wasn't trying to be controlling, but I don't feel that her having all the benefits of being married without any of the responsibility is right either.  That is a value of mine.

I think it is controlling.

More importantly, it is an unfair,  unenforceable, effectively worthless bargain.

Fair bargain: You do X forever and I do Y forever.

Fair bargain: You do X for one year (irrevocably) and I do Y for one year (irrevocably)

Fair bargain: You do X immediately and I do Y immediately

Fair bargain: You do something concrete and specific, and I do the same.

Fair bargain: You promise something emotional and ambiguous, where a knocked down fight over whether your actions actually met your agreement or not is possible... .and her part has the same ambiguity.

Bad: One part is immediate (and irrevocable); other part is ongoing, and can be stopped at any time.

Bad: One part specific and measurable, other part vague and seriously debatable about what compliance means.

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .

[formflier]

 

That depends on the bargain... .whether she wins or not.

Don't make a bargain where you don't feel you have won.

If you don't get win win... .don't do it

[MaroonLiquid]

That depends on the bargain... .whether she wins or not.

Don't make a bargain where you don't feel you have won.

If you don't get win win... .don't do it

The problem with the insurance thing is, there is no win for me.  I do it and she doesn't have to do anything beyond the here and now but yet she will get hers for a year unless a divorce happens.

[formflier]

 

Then... .don't do it.

If there is no win for you... .and that matters for you... .move along to the next issue.

Same for her... .if there is no "win" for her... .she will move along to the next issue.

[Grey Kitty]

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  

No, that isn't my proposal for you.

I'm pointing out what kind of "bargains" are guaranteed to be complete failures before they are even proposed, by their very structure, and what sort of bargains could be proposed, and if agreed upon, acted on in a fair and reciprocal way.

My feeling is that if you put her on your health insurance, she will end up taking advantage of you, and you won't get anything you want from it.

How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .

I don't think a bargain will help your r/s with her.

You can choose to let her use you. You can choose not to let her use you.

I think it is healthier for you to choose not to be used.

I think that if you make that choice, your r/s will may not survive. However if you make that choice and your r/s does survive, it will be a better one.

I don't see good outcomes for your r/s (or at least your side of it!) if you do choose to let her use you.

[MaroonLiquid]

So you propose to use it for bargaining then.  How does that help me?  

No, that isn't my proposal for you.

I'm pointing out what kind of "bargains" are guaranteed to be complete failures before they are even proposed, by their very structure, and what sort of bargains could be proposed, and if agreed upon, acted on in a fair and reciprocal way.

My feeling is that if you put her on your health insurance, she will end up taking advantage of you, and you won't get anything you want from it.

How does that help the r/s aspect between us?  i feel at that point she has won.  She then can still do what she wants, be "on her own", yet use me... .

I don't think a bargain will help your r/s with her.

You can choose to let her use you. You can choose not to let her use you.

I think it is healthier for you to choose not to be used.

I think that if you make that choice, your r/s will may not survive. However if you make that choice and your r/s does survive, it will be a better one.

I don't see good outcomes for your r/s (or at least your side of it!) if you do choose to let her use you.

What choice are you talking about making where our r/s may not survive?  I will not let her use me anymore.  My line was when she took my car.  I love her, but doesn't mean I have to be a doormat, but I'm done with being used.

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm curious to see how she goes about trying to make contact with me now that she has my car.  I think right now she is pissed because I got her sister involved and let them know she took my car.  I didn't text her back when she let me know she dropped the van at my apartment when I was renting a vehicle.  The only reason she did that was to make herself look better to her sister.

FF, you said in another thread that "things are never too far gone... ."  :)o you still feel that way in my case at this point?  

[Grey Kitty]

The "bargain" I proposed (paying her insurance to get back your laptop and your car) was simply an example of a structurally enforceable bargain. I don't believe it is a good one for you, even if she accepts it.

You give her something that you don't have to give her. She gives back some things she stole from you.

This rewards her for stealing them. When somebody steals something, the appropriate recourse is that they are forced to return it AND pay a penalty, rather than being rewarded for returning what wasn't rightfully theirs in the first place!

A better bargain for you would be to pay her family's health insurance for one year, if she will sign a legal contract to grant you visitation (very specific terms, no latitude for her to arbitrarily refuse) to her children for that year.

And get a lawyer to confirm that this would be enforceable and write it up!

[MaroonLiquid]

I hear ya GK... .That isn't a bad idea, but not sure she would go for it.  Too many things she has told the kids that aren't true that she would have to face... .She is all about keeping her fortress up around her and the kids... .DFence... .DFence

Don't mean to get too personal, but I'm really missing physical intimacy with my wife these last few days.  Really since that night last week when we were emotionally connecting right before she dysregulated.  It brought out desires I stuffed for 8 weeks.  Hard to believe that we haven't been intimate in two months.  The part of the disorder I HATE is it seems that she can't deal with her "crap" she's done, so she creates an event to put it on someone else (me).  The ridiculous thing is she can justify her taking three trips in four months and her bills not getting paid, but yet I get a new phone and back to the silent treatment... .  Im really venting these last few days because the more I try and learn about this, the less it seems I understand.

[formflier]

 

It is never... .ever... too far gone.

also... realize that you only have so much power.  You have to use that wisely... .but she still gets a choice.

She may not choose you.

Focus on GK advice.

I think you can limp the r/s along to a more dysfunctional state... .but it will last longer by caving in.

If you "hold"... .that may end it sooner... .or it may get to a better place sooner.

I see no chance of "caving"... .and getting to a better place

[Rapt Reader]

Question: Is letting a wife and kids stay on the Health Insurance provided by the Husband's employer (since the couple is still legally married), especially when the Wife's Health Insurance is an inferior plan, considered "caving"?

Is there a place where conceding that such a consideration is just plain good sense, beneficial to the Wife and children, and an act of love and concern? Taking that bargaining chip out of the mix is a non-negotiable? Is an act of love and concern, showing the Wife that said Husband has a heart of gold and willingness to do a selfless, loving thing for his family, some sort of hindrance to the marriage working out in the end?

I understand the manipulations by the Wife regarding the laptop and car, and I don't agree with her making the Husband's life miserable regarding those things. I think she needs to get her act together and stop doing that kind of stuff, and I know that there are things the Husband has to do to try to accomplish that. The Health Insurance issue just seems different to me; the withholding of it seems to be able to reconfirm in the Wife's mind that said Husband is heartless, uncaring, a terrible father and human being, etc.

I understand the motives involved with using that as a flag at the top of the conquered hill, but it just seems to be a different struggle to me. Would the Husband want his Wife (that he wants to reconcile with) and children covered by the best Health Insurance plan, regardless of the strategic spot that would put him in, in this battle of wits? Or would he want to use this as a tactic for leverage? This conundrum seriously taxes my thinking; isn't there a way to provide the Health Insurance in a way that helps the relationship and family, without making it a "win for her; lose for him" proposition?

[MaroonLiquid]

I was in the same boat initially with you as well Rapt... .My counter to that is had the other stuff not been taken from me, I might be in a different place about it.  It is hard for me to give that to her after all this especially if it is an extinction burst.  I'm only getting something from her when she needs something it seems.  Yes, we did have a moment, but was immediatley stolen by a dysregulation and taking my car.  At what point is enough enough?  I hate the stalemate also...

[MaroonLiquid]

Her insurance costs her 600 a month with a huge deductible for each of them.  My question, is this like everything else for months and about what is easier on her financially?  She can afford to go on trips, go shopping, but not take car of her car registration all with the last four months.  I'm looking at her pattern of behavior.  She chose to be separated.  I didn't.  She wanted me to take them off my insurance at first (divorce threat from her) until she found out how much it cost.

[formflier]

 

There is a legitimate point of view that Rapt Reader brings up.

Ultimately (i think) it comes down to where do you draw the line... .

If not health insurance... .where?  

And... with the recent history of "proving" that he is nice guy... .handed over car keys... .got wife out of fix... .etc etc... .and see how that moved the family towards reconciliation.

If we "knew" how she was really thinking... .I would be all for this.  But ultimately... .it's a best guess.

It's just as likely... .IMO... .that if he had given her health insurance... .that she would have thought... ."well... he should have done that anyway... .so it doesn't count to "prove" his love to me"

Note:  I've been through that... .so... .I'm a bit jaded to that thinking.   Or... .doing something that she asked... and after it was over... .I get no credit... because she had to ask.  Sigh... .

Hmmm.

Maroon,

How much better is your health insurance plan?  

Are we talking about a $10 better co pay?  Even it the difference in plans is "thousands" of dollars... .then I would stick to my advice.

If the difference in plans it that one covers major illnesses... .and the other provides no coverage at all... .maybe... .maybe I would think differently.

[MaroonLiquid]

There is a legitimate point of view that Rapt Reader brings up.

Ultimately (i think) it comes down to where do you draw the line... .

If not health insurance... .where?  

And... with the recent history of "proving" that he is nice guy... .handed over car keys... .got wife out of fix... .etc etc... .and see how that moved the family towards reconciliation.

If we "knew" how she was really thinking... .I would be all for this.  But ultimately... .it's a best guess.

It's just as likely... .IMO... .that if he had given her health insurance... .that she would have thought... ."well... he should have done that anyway... .so it doesn't count to "prove" his love to me"

Note:  I've been through that... .so... .I'm a bit jaded to that thinking.   Or... .doing something that she asked... and after it was over... .I get no credit... because she had to ask.  Sigh... .

Hmmm.

Maroon,

How much better is your health insurance plan?  

Are we talking about a $10 better co pay?  Even it the difference in plans is "thousands" of dollars... .then I would stick to my advice.

If the difference in plans it that one covers major illnesses... .and the other provides no coverage at all... .maybe... .maybe I would think differently.

Mine is an EPO with $20 copay and that covers any in-network doctor (no referrals), hospital (copay covers entire bill: my youngest son's entire bill when he was born was the $20 copay which included prenatal care!) or ER visit, covers all pre-existing conditions and no more than $30 for scripts (most $20 or less).  I pay $700 dollars a month for it, but with six kids and several including me on meds monthly... .It is awesome... .

Hers is an 80-20 PPO at $600 a month, $1500 deductible per person $4500 for family, and after deductible met, $30 copay and $30 scripts.

Again, my stance here is, when she separated (and yes, I forgive her), these are things she didn't think about nor take into consideration.  She can't do whatever she wants and there be no consequence for it.  I'm not saying I'm not open to keeping them on, but as other times, it seems to me this is purely money driven by her.  Yes she has three kids, and they are expensive, but if I wasn't in the picture (which it seems she doesn't want me in it, of course, only an observation), she would be stuck with this... .

[formflier]

 

So... .this is about $4500... correct?  After she pays that... .the deductible is met and she has really awesome coverage... .on her plan?

Any idea how much she spent on vacations?  I wouldn't "toss that in her face"... .but my guess is that it is close to $4500.

Maroon,

On the one hand... .I am reluctant to "tell you what to do"... .dealing with BPD traits is complex. 

There are legitimate points of view to just about any course of action that we have talked about

I hate this for you... .I really do.  If I saw just about any "give" on her side... I would probably be pushing you to keep that goo momentum going... .

But... .what I seem to be seeing is her continuing to be needier and needier... .


Man... .please make sure you are talking this over with your IC as well as on this board.

[MaroonLiquid]

So... .this is about $4500... correct?  After she pays that... .the deductible is met and she has really awesome coverage... .on her plan?

Any idea how much she spent on vacations?  I wouldn't "toss that in her face"... .but my guess is that it is close to $4500.

Maroon,

On the one hand... .I am reluctant to "tell you what to do"... .dealing with BPD traits is complex.  

There are legitimate points of view to just about any course of action that we have talked about

I hate this for you... .I really do.  If I saw just about any "give" on her side... I would probably be pushing you to keep that goo momentum going... .

But... .what I seem to be seeing is her continuing to be needier and needier... .


Man... .please make sure you are talking this over with your IC as well as on this board.

You see "good momentum"?  Or was that a hypothetical... .And where does the "needier and needier" thing come from?

[formflier]

 

Hypothetical... .if I saw momentum...

Needier and needier... .as in she takes more... .and needs more... .so she takes more... .

Wasn't satisfied with the laptop... .so she took a car... .what's next?

Might not have been the best posting style... .kinda thinking out loud.

[Grey Kitty]

I hear ya GK... .That isn't a bad idea, but not sure she would go for it. 

If you are sure she wouldn't think of doing it... .don't bother. Lawyers aren't free even to consult.

If you aren't sure... .but if it is something that YOU want, it is worth asking.

Aside... .if you had a solid legal agreement from her to give you visitation time with her kids... .that might be a very helpful precident for something similar in the case of a divorce... .Dunno there... .

[formflier]

 

Hmmm... .thinking more about GK idea. 

This makes it about the kids... .not about her.  If the insurance is "for the kids"... .and the visitation agreement is "for the kids"... that seems to be win win.

It at least would seem to prove that you are family guy... .that you care about family... .values... .etc etc... .

If there is a thought in her head that you are "controlling" her... .this may steer away from that.  Since it is about the kids.

My recommendation... .if this is something you are interested in... .  BIG IF... .  Don't ask her... .ask lawyer first.  If lawyer says this is enforceable... .then get it drawn up.

Then present it... .

we have seen how many time she has changed her mind... .is why I'm thinking this.  Counseling... .yes... .then... counseling no... etc etc